The top 10% of Americans pay 70% of the taxes. That seems more then fair to me. Do I have my numbers wrong?
"Renaissance Thinking About the Issues of Our Day"
As Speaker of the House John Boehner failed to get his members in line to vote on a plan to avert the so-called “fiscal cliff.” It was a bad idea to begin with – a plan to let the Bush tax cuts expire for millionaires – but let those same millionaires keep generous tax loopholes, while getting rid of many of the tax breaks used by the middle class. It was another huge giveaway to the rich, but the Republicans Party flew over the cuckoo’s nest and couldn't even stomach passing a very, very modest tax increase on billionaires like the Koch brothers.
In a statement late Tuesday night, Speaker Boehner said he didn't have enough votes within his own party to pass the measure. He then urged President Obama and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid to come up with a plan while he sends his Republican House members Christmas vacation. Financial markets are not reacting well to the news. Yesterday’s events in the House made the President’s hand even stronger in negotiations.
A plan to avoid the “fiscal cliff” will not pass out of the House without Democratic support – and everybody knows it now. So it’s time to take cuts to Social Security Insurance benefits off the table, and come up with a deal that’s more in line with what the nation wants, which is for the rich to pay their fair share in taxes and no cuts to social insurance programs. If a few sensible Republicans in the House don’t join Democrats and take this sort of deal, then off the cliff we go, and President Obama’s hand will get even stronger.
The top 10% of Americans pay 70% of the taxes. That seems more then fair to me. Do I have my numbers wrong?
You're missing some numbers. They don't even do 10% of the work.
Many, many people work full time and more - at two or three jobs - for the privilege of living in poverty. At the VERY least, EVERYONE who works full time should be able to afford decent housing, education, healthcare, etc. for themselves and their children.
More just would be a strong middle class of working people.
Even more just would be equal, common ownership of the means of production and its dividend but I'd be delighted with just a strong middle class of working people.
After listening to your remarks it is apparent what you think should be done about the budget. You think the Republicans should give the wealthy never ending tax cuts, while the middle class and poor take the fiscal hits Jan. 1. I really believe you should go back to Canada; your opinions are not appreciated here. The Republicans are willing to see major cuts hit all social programs because the people they represent, the wealthy, will see their taxes go up in either situation and are willing to hurt the rest of America out of spite and the fact they fear they will be challenged by a Republican in their next primary and lose. They are more concerned with their future than they are about the rest of America. It is time the people who are going to suffer take this matter into their own hands. Those that are going to lose a great deal should disrupt the lives of those responsible for their pain in the event that all social and military programs take a big hit. It is time we copied the actions of the Greek and Spanish citizens. The American population needs to become active in whatever actions will serve their cause best. It is time the American public started to push back at the people responsible for this pending crisis. Obama is just as responsible for this crisis as the Republicans in the House and Senate. He did nothing to prevent this crisis in the four years as President. The president wins by getting more tax revenue and the Republicans win because they will get the cuts to social programs they want. And the losers will be the poor and middle class citizens in America with slashed social programs, higher taxes and loss of jobs. We need to follow the examples the citizens in Europe have used to demonstrate their feelings about austerity. The American Politicians have found a way to impose AUSTERITY on Americans without having to take a political move that might cost them their jobs! I smell a conspiracy from both the Democrats and the Republicans and it stinks. Again I believe it is time Americans took to the streets and demstrated how they feel about this government and take whatever measures are needed to get the message across to these worthless politicians in Washington. They were more concerned with getting home for their Christmas then they are about actually doing something for the Americans that put them in office. Both parties are going to take a major hit because of their inactions to reach a deal on the fiscal crisis. I truly believe all non-Americans should keep their opinions to themselves since they have not skin in the game. And please do not bring up that idiotic reference to how much trade Canadians do with America. We have seen how the Canadian oil company is fighting to run a pipeline through the heart of America to ship they dirty shale oil to countries outside of the American borders. Again this is another example of the wealthy risking the future of Americans for more profits and if there is an accident with the pipeline it is the American environment that will be polluted not the Canadian. We do not need your oil running through the middle of our country....
Just tell me how we are going to cut the budget deficit. Here are the numbers.
Yearly federal shortfall- 1 trillion plus
Amount to be had from a "tax the rich" scheme- About 100 billion
Where is the rest going to come from? Even Dick Durbin (D-Illinois, the number two Dem in the Senate) recently came out and said "It is naive (sp?) to expect us to get out of this mess with tax increases alone. Everything has to be on the table."
By far the most intelligent thing I have ever heard a Democrat say in my life!!!!!!!
Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security are going to have to take a hair cut. Those programs are not sustainabloe in their current form. The only other alternative is a MIDDLE CLASS tax increase. The rich do not make enough money to keep those programs alive as they are now.
Kend, they're the top 10% because they have way more than 10% of the wealth and income. The top 10% has 80% of the wealth. Allowing that top 10% of the people to pay less than 80% of the taxes (I'm not sure they pay the 70% that you claim) allows the wealth disparity in this country to get worse.
You might appreciate my infographic.
Joe Kennedy is Robert Kennedy jr's brother.
Mark, I thought I was frustrated with these liberal loonies in Washington but I think you must have to beat your head against the wall just to feel better. I am a self educater, I will have to learn more about your libertarian socialist philosophy. My guess is your are going to have to buy your own island nation. Peace.
Global, I don't think you know what the word "libertarian" means. I think you meant to say "liberal".
Ken Ware, I do have "skin in the game" I have a registered company in the US and do pay taxes in US. Apparently I pay more than 47% of Americans. You are wrong about what i think about raising taxes to the wealthy, selfishly I would like you to tax the heck out of them. Then maybe they would invest more up here. By the way 39% is nothing our top tax rate is 48% but we pay more right across the board that's how we get our free health care.
So I guess the 10/70 thing is correct. WOW. What does fair mean?
Canadians don't care about the Keystone pipeline India and China will be glad to buy oil from responsible, ethical country like Canada.
I looked up some numbers. The Top 1% make $380,354 and yp.
So, incomes over $1MM are reall ythe very, very wealthy!
Yeah, "Plan B" must had meant B for BAD!
I say tax the crap out of those who actually benefitted from unpaid wars, federal weapon contracts, huge unpiad tax cuts and privatizing the US Treasury. Yup, the very richest of the rich Americans!
I really wish people would stop referring to the 6-year-olds that were killed as "babies".
I know what a libertarian is, I lean that way. Mark S is a libertarian socialist anarchist etc... That is what I am trying to understand.
Libertarianism and socialism are not compatible.
It looks to me like the Mayan end times refer to the implosion of the Republican Party as we have known it since 1980.
All their long time strong arm tactics aren't working any more. People see through their lies. Their lock-step mentality died when they stopped being an unbeatable force in the Nov. presidential elections.
They can't negotiate -- they don't know how. That looks too soft and weak to them.
They can't learn -- they don't know how. That would require them to be able admit they are human. And again that looks too soft and weak to them.
They can't change their dogma -- they are still owned by the same folks who have always owned them and have their dogmas written for them. Without a script they don't even know what it say.
:P How weak is that!!!
Don't hurt yourself Global. That you haven't heard of any of it and can't even seem to comprehend, for example, that your rights can't be at the expense of everyone else's, means that you're either way out or full of it.
Respectfully, Mathboy, you have no idea what you're talking about.
I'm a Libertarian Socialist but not yet a complete Anarchist.
You have to be honest to understand it and not insist on false definitions of Socialism and false dichotomies of Leninist Communism and live and let die, predatory, Lassiez Faire Capitalism.
Thanks so much, Thom - I am hoping that we go on "off the cliff." No compromise. Let the Rs come to us. Debby
You don't speak for Canadians but one, Kend, nor do I trust most of your math and stats I don't have time to check.
I'd like to see the books opened on the Republican Party Underground Slush Fund and War Booty which is coming to Light.
Dick Durbin has said that Social Security shouldn't be on the table and Medicare and Medicaid needn't be cut.
Why should I explain, again, how this works? You don't ever listen, willfully so, it seems.
Once more. I think your numbers - although I am not sure, will have to check - are off, again. Tax the rich, the top 2%, at Clinton era levels, I heard, on pretty good authority (I think it was Dick Durbin) - but, again, will have to check - will yield significantly more than $100 billion. It will bring in 40% of the deficit. Cuts to the military are easy as that budget was gratuitously increased in the last few years but that also won't be enough.
However, as I've told youse many times before, it's ok and even desirable to run a deficit during a recession. Only government will make the investment necessary to restart the economy. Each of the two times in the last 60 years the budget was balanced - each time under Democrats, it was Republican Administrations that spent like sailors and deficit spent and ran up the deficit we're dealing with now - it wasn't just tax increases that brought it about but tax increases in combination with a robust economy that brought in the revenue. Tax cuts might help for a little while but more than likely, while making some individuals richer and freer of obligation, they will make the economy more anemic.
Business already has more money than it knows what to do with right now but what they don't have is customers. They have no reason to expand and invest. Only government will do that.
I don't think you wanna hear what I'm saying. I don't think you're being truthful or honest.
In my professional life (now some years past) I taught history (western civ) to 9th and 10th graders. If only schools would still teach that history, Americans would know the meaning of Socialism and Liberalism and Communism as well as the long and hard fought history of the development of western democracy, going back to the Middle Ages, as well as the parliamentary form of government now practiced in Europe. Instead these words are tossed around without knowledge or regard for their meaning. You, Thom, are most helpful with your remarkable and detailed knowledge of US history - thank you for the insights which you bring. History has many wonderful testimonials to the human spirit and its capacity to guide us all. Although its study does not lead directly to a waiting job, it does a great deal to lead us to a good life. May we continue to celebrate and value a "liberal education." (The term comes from the Middle Ages in Europe - the "seven liberal arts.")
Well, we still have spending problem, do we not? Why is there no discussion on spending?
And by the way, I'm a progressive, but like my own finances, I can't spend more than I have!
Just a thought!
Obama should do an LBJ.
Obama should have Boehner, McConnell, Cantor and other key twa party leaders escorted to oval office by an armed escort. In the office he should tell the GOP Leaders that they either get their members to support the tax hike to 40% marginal on incomes >= 300K/Yr or find themselves witnessing a forced confiscation the the top 2% excess wealth starting in 36 hrs. And have the armed escort serice take them back to Capitol Hill..
I wonder about your definitions, including "progressive."
What are you talking about when you say there's no discussion on spending? What do you think the republicans are talking about when they urge cuts to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicare, veterans' benefits, tax credits for child care and unemployment benefits.
You are not a government. The government operates by quite different standards than a family does. Unless, of course, you make your own money.
A deficit is not necessarily a bad thing, up to a point. Lack of jobs is a bad thing. We can run a deficit if we use money to help stimulate the economy which brings in more money. That's why we need to put money into people's pockets. Only people with money can stimulate the economy. Businesses have tons of money that they are sitting on and not using to create jobs. For example, IRS figures show that in 2009 nonfinancial companies held $4.8 trillion in liquid assets, which equals $5.1 trillion in today’s dollars, triple the Fed figure.
I'm sorry, but that was just so obnoxiously ignorant, like if you didn't see it on Oprah or some stupid TV show you don't know about it.
Self-educater (educator): I think you need to go get professional education--concentrating especially on understanding the facts, plus how to reason, logic, and writing a cogent statement.
I'm sorry, Mathboy, I was pissed off at some of the comments but your definitions of what I call myself are, without wanting to be nasty, common for the dumbed down society.
Pretty much proof of what we always suspected. The Tea Party is not a grass-roots movement. Its a group of paid thugs for a few far right gazillionaires. They have zero allegiance to their constituents - 100% to their bosses.
It looks like 2 more years of chaos. Then they will be gone and the reconstruction can be started.
I'm amazed at how FOX along with Cantor and his Teabaggers have successfully convinced so many that the Democrats and in particular Obama have a spending problem. They've scapegoated the so called entitlement programs, or by my definition, paid for nonprofit social insurance programs. In other words they want us to believe the problem is the lazy free-rider, Reagan's welfare Queen!
It's quite easy to find the truth about spending and who has the problem, just google, "annualized federal spending growth,"...the facts are there, and it's clearly a Republican problem.
The Teapublicans want Obama to agree to pay for a problem they created with out of control SPENDING on socialized Bank bailouts, unfunded wars, unfunded tax breaks for the rich...etc...... in part with our hard earned contributions to social insurance programs, by down sizing them.
I agree, it's time for Obama to take Social Security Insurance benefits off the table and stay in line with what the vast majority wants.....bending over for the billionaires will gain him nothing except a big drop in the polls.
Screw the uber class and its political wing the so called Republican party. Yield as little as possible, continue to show them for what they are. I can wait until the mid term and a Democratic House in the wake. We must not budge, right is on our side. The simple fact is....
For over 50 years and over the past 12 years on steroids the rich have been on a free ride; not paying taxes in proportion to their wealth, garnering wealth through regulatory shift and this has severely weakened our economy. Over the past 4 years the politcal wing labored arduously to block any revenue raising and/or spending on ourselves while on a parallel track the class itself while charting positive growth and profits refused to hire; redistributing the load on existing workers. I have rarely met anyone in the private sector who tells a story of corporate hiring, only of having been shouldered with a greater and greater work load.
When the reality of the past 50 years is presented, the cost or revenue issue around these concerns is often argued back by the uber class and its minions as class warfare and transfer of wealth but there is another view; the economy has been rendered anemic. It has been weakened as surely as a living organism would be weakened, rendered anemic if almost 50% of its blood were removed and sequestered.
It is clear that under such a reality the majority cannot enjoy the promise of this great nation as set forth in the preamble to the Constitution as the promotion of the “general welfare”. Said another way, the ability of the many to enjoy life vibrantly cannot occur within an economy where almost half of available wealth has been removed and sequestered to the advantage of only a few. Under such a reality, it is clear that the general economy of goods and services cannot function vibrantly and provide benefit to the many anymore than life itself could function vibrantly on this planet were almost half of the available oxygen removed and sequestered to the advantage of a few.
Tax the 2% as promised and do not cut the cut the meager stipend and health benefit that we have paid for and earned throughout our lives of productive contribution to this Nation. Spend on ourselves on our nation putting people to work, creating people with money in their pockets spending and paying taxes. Eventually the class must act to meet demand, just sayin'.
Mark that is why I asked if my numbers where right. Everything I have seen shows the 10/70 and if that is correct isn't the wealthy paying enough already. What would you do with out them?
Hey history writer, what is the quickest way to put money in people's pocket? Answer -- cut taxes. Why do companies have lots of cash right now that they do not want to spend and expand? Answer -- uncertainty of what this radical regime is going to do next and the unknown of what the monstrosity of Obamacare is going to cost.
I don't think I need to answer for mauiman but he is right on his numbers. Hundred billion per year at best. You might get 40 percent of the annual defecit if you stole all the money from the top 2 percent. And I know you would if you could.
Oh I comprehend you loud and clear, you are a complete wacko and as I said before you need to find your own island nation to burn down and start over.
Very good information at this link, thanks. Now, I have to agree with the "progressive" liberals that wealth in-equality is health in-equality. I know this because my spouse is a phd in public health and epidemology. However, the fix is not short term. It is 50 to 80 years away at current course and speed. It will require some very painful events to take place over a very long time. That said, the current IDIOTS are US. We elected this bunch and they are doing exactly what we asked them to do. Take from the "other" guy, but NOT MY STUFF!!! Obama talks about millionares and billionares and yet wants to levy high taxes on $250K???? And there goes GE, Google, Verizon, GM, INTEL, with the slight of hand move the money offshore and pay no taxes....WHAT THE HELL is that? NO ONE and I MEAN NO ONE ever says Hey....Mr. GE, Mr. Schmidt, Mr. Verizon.....PAY UP. Oh NO....we can't piss them off. Besides, the RICH need to pay and pay and pay....who the heck thinks $250K makes one rich while a MULTI NATIONAL Corp plays the game legally while the guys/gals that wrote the legal law let it happen. WE ARE SCREWED....protect your assets, hope that the younger generation will finally get pissed off enough to fire the group we hired. I fear for my grandchildren.
Really getting cynical in my old age. Maybe I need to move to an island....Except my father was a marine. Semper Fi
Yes, me too. By the way, are you referring to the "M-Fund", Operation Golden Lily, or "Black Eagle Fund" or something else? Must be something more recent than those stories...because books have been written about them..and I've read some of them...and the stories have been all over the internet for quite some time.
Then there is the "Black Budget" which only a few have ever been able to peek inside of. Maybe Wikileaks is about to enlighten us all? It was "leaked" by Wikileaks that they will reveal, in this next year, yet something more that is sure to tick off the ruling elite. Wikileaks has still not released the promised video footage of the massacre by the US military of up to 147 people, mostly women and children, in Granai, Afghanistan* on May 4, 2009. The US military had encrypted the video and Wikileaks was trying to decrypt it. I hope whatever it is they are planning to release next year is done in January.
I wouldn't be surprised that of those $trillions that went missing and unaccounted for, as reported by Rumsfeld on the day before 911**, and those $trillions that went missing in Iraq later on are now part of the Republican Underground Slush Fund and War Booty.
Doing a Google search using the information you gave doesn't come up with anything...unless you are connecting to the "dark side" of the internet. I'm told, and it stands to reason, that it swamps the visible side of the internet...something like 999.999 to 000.001. A goldmine of information treasure that people spend lots of money trying to keep hidden.
Cryptome.org is sometimes interesting but while that, like Wikileaks, antagonizes some people in high places it is just a sliver of information that can be discovered. I know you have discovered a lot of interesting things in the past, yourself....some very arcane tidbits of history that some in power would rather was kept hidden.
9/10/2001: Rumsfeld says $2.1 Trillion Went Missing from Pentagon.
note the date: day before 9/11..coincidence? right!!
Kund - I guess the truth is I personally dislike anyone like you and global. If I had my way you would not be allowed to venture into our country. I personally would like to see all conservatives rounded up and put into re-educational camps or concentration camps to be more direct. I also would have no problem turning Canada into a nuclear waste site. As the fiscal cliff becomes a reality the wealthy will pay their fair share and they will not be able to buy politicians to prevent it. Obviously you are making a profit or you would not invest in this country, I wouldn't doubt that you are probably an employer of illegal aliens that suck the life out of our country. I am not a progressive, I am an independent. And I do favor all and any means in accomplishing what has to be done to free our country of the leaches that suck the blood out of every American worker. War has taught me one thing, there can only be one winner and taking prisoners is not an option. Of course I am speaking politically. I am looking forward to the day when Americans rise up and turn the Dogs of War loose on the politicians that serve their millionaire and billionaire masters. Of course again I am speaking in political terms. The reason why the pipeline is running through our country is the Koch brothers were able to buy enough political votes to use the Domain laws to steal land from Americans. It will not benefit Americans unless you’re speaking of the billionaires that will make a bundle shipping the oil to countries like China and India. These countries are enemies of the American public and use slave labor to steal away American jobs by supplying cheap slave labor to the multi-national corporations that run Washington and have bribed politicians like Obama and Washington Politicians into signing free trade agreements that destroy the ability of Americans to find good jobs. Free trade means they are free to ship American jobs to slave labor nations like those mentioned above. Get something straight for a change; because you pay taxes on profits made here in America it does not give you any right to think you have "skin" in the game. This country belongs to the American public, not Canadians. And your two bit comments are just that cheap, two bit comments about a country and political system you have nothing to do with. And when you leave our country for that frozen pond you call a country, please take fools like Global with you. I bet he would be highly valued in a country that is basically a socialistic society. Now I know why the French Canadians want to form their own nation with idiots like you from the English speaking portion of your country trying to run their lives. I can understand why you would have a place in Az., they are as warped as conservatives can get, present company included...I really hope you have an opportunity to read this and the courage to respond from Scottsdale.
Did you not see my two replies right under your statement or question? There is more to it; and the answer is"no". We should go back to previous tax rates of 75-90% for top earners. That was more just and society was much better for it.
Economy, my man, is just a game. There is nothing handed down from Mt. Sinai that says you deserve all or part of the money you get from any particular venture or transaction. Our current rules and system says you can keep so much of it that was "agreed" upon but that doesn't mean those are the best and most just rules or the best and most just system. We could just as well agree on something else. I know you wanna keep all that money but maybe it would be more just and better for society if you shared it and gave it up to the people who work for you either in the form wages or taxes.
You parasites steal from US. Try do ANYTHING without us. You're gonna give us a fair percentage of the profits either in the form of wages or taxes.
I just got done telling Kend that an economy is a game. Don't get carried away with it. There is nothing that says you deserve all the money you get from a business venture or transaction just because you might get away with keeping it. You gotta share it fairly with those who work for you either in the form of wages or taxes, whether you like it or not.
Mark I never ever said I want all of my money I know we need to pay taxes. I live in Canada which would be heaven to most people that comment on this program. We pay much higher taxes then you. We have government health care, although It is not national like you are getting down there. I pay employees very well thank you I never had anyone quit that worked for me.
To make people pay 75 to 90 percent is insane. Like France they will be exiting the country for lower tax countries. Both our countries have that problem already.
While people are, rightly, upset over a lone gunman nut killing school children...there are other nuts that have "institutionalized" torture and murder of children for fun and profit. I often don't catch all the news and this one I had missed (maybe I blinked) but this was in the news briefly a few months ago. Do a search on Judge Rotenberg Educational Center in Canton, Mass.
Maybe we need a law to ban electricity. electricity doesn't kill or torture people...people kill or torture people.
I'm not saying you, Kend, should pay 90% just the highest incomes on their second or third yearly million dollars.
Capital flight is indeed a problem but tariffs would probably solve that in the U.S. and, of course, an end to policies that encourage off shoring. I don't know if that would work in France, they are not as large a consumer market. It might, though, I'm not as familiar with their situation although I know that in the past the kept manufacturing in the country by giving workers many rights and making it too expensive to take their jobs as you would still be responsible for paying them after you left. I suspect that the French are implementing only one part of the policies that worked in the past without the necessary supporting measures that must go with them. IOW, they may be implementing only the high taxes on high incomes but not the tariffs or worker protections. I have to check that out.
I do think, indeed, that Canada is a very nice society.
Ken W you are right your country does belong to Americans. I don't have any say as I can't vote here. i could only be so lucky as to have Quebec separate from Canada they are so heavily subsidized by the rest of Canada they are dragging us down. Do you want them they are as far left as it gets. Oh and the only reason there is pipelines from Canada to the US is to supply energy to people who need it. What is wrong with that we have been doing it for 50 years.
What is cheap about stating facts. If what I said is right I just said it seems like they are contributing a lot already.
Whatever you comprehend you are only capable of regurgitating talking points. You are not a very good shill. I don't think there's anybody here who isn't wise to you. You're not affecting the discourse very much. Nobody really listens to you here.
You're just kind of a fly buzzing around us, a minor annoyance.
Furthermore Kend, the 35% top incomers in the U.S. pay now or the 39% Obama proposes is not a just compensation to the working people of the United States nor is it good for our society. It is not enough to keep us out of prepetual deficit - albeit the deficit was willfully run up by the Republican gangs - and is not enough for needed programs.