Where are all of the bleeding hearts?

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It has been 48 days...

Where are all the "Save the Gulf" concerts? Where are the T.V. specials? Where are the telethons? Benefits with celebrities and musicians giving heart felt speeches on the poor fisherman wildlife, beaches, loss of income?

Strange how these people (including our own government) are so quick to help Haiti and other countries...but sit on their butts for this one. Is it politics as usual once again?

slabmaster
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Apr. 1, 2010 11:12 am

Comments

Why is this in "environment"?

As for "politics as usual", there aren't any bleeding hearts in your conservative corner that care enough to do anything for anybody but themselves, so I 'spose it is politics as usual. Groups I support are at work down there. Maybe no concerts, but work taking place quietly.

jeffbiss's picture
jeffbiss
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Um, the organization responsible doesn't need financial help in cleaning this up.

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Common_Man_Jason
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Common_Man_Jason:

Um, the organization responsible doesn't need financial help in cleaning this up.

If we could give an award for the best comeback comment I have read on this board in ages, this would be it. Short, intelligent and to the point!

(Plus I read you like Wings too ;))

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meljomur
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote meljomur:
Quote Common_Man_Jason:

Um, the organization responsible doesn't need financial help in cleaning this up.

If we could give an award for the best comeback comment I have read on this board in ages, this would be it. Short, intelligent and to the point!

(Plus I read you like Wings too ;))

Awe shucks, you're making me blush. ;)

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Common_Man_Jason
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

As long as we all have fingers to point, it will take care of itself, seems to be the answer. Oh well, hurricane season is right around the corner. I don't live anywhere near the gulf, so who cares...right? As long as we're blaming BP, what's the hurry.

BTW, BP will bill the end user of it's product for this. I promise.

slabmaster
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Apr. 1, 2010 11:12 am
As long as we all have fingers to point, it will take care of itself, seems to be the answer. Oh well, hurricane season is right around the corner. I don't live anywhere near the gulf, so who cares...right? As long as we're blaming BP, what's the hurry.

BTW, BP will bill the end user of it's product for this. I promise.

What are you talking about? I told you the groups I support are already on the ground and at work cleaning up the mess. Do you pay any attention to anything posted here?

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jeffbiss
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote jeffbiss:
As long as we all have fingers to point, it will take care of itself, seems to be the answer. Oh well, hurricane season is right around the corner. I don't live anywhere near the gulf, so who cares...right? As long as we're blaming BP, what's the hurry.

BTW, BP will bill the end user of it's product for this. I promise.

What are you talking about? I told you the groups I support are already on the ground and at work cleaning up the mess. Do you pay any attention to anything posted here?

Sorry, I often ignore some posters rehtorec. Good for your groups for taking charge. Someone has to.

slabmaster
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Apr. 1, 2010 11:12 am

While there may be some negligence as to the cause of the blowout, a lack of a safety shut-off or a secondary relief well was merely BP following the law.

Their legal mandate is to maximize profits. An acoustic shut-off would lower profits. Isn't that why we have regulatory guidelines? They enable a corporation to adhere to the legal mandate to maximize profits...within a framework.

I hate to say it, but BP was merely following the law as it currently exists. If they want a legal defense.. they have it.

If BP is to blame, it was perhaps negligence that caused the explosion/blowout. Negligence would have to be proven.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

polycarp2
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote polycarp2:

While there may be some negligence as to the cause of the blowout, a lack of a safety shut-off was merely BP following the law.

Their legal mandate is to maximize profits. An acoustic shut-off valve would lower profits. Isn't that why we have regulatory guidelines? They enable a corporation to adhere to the legal mandate to maximize profits...within a framework.

I hate to say it, but BP was merely following the law as it currently exists. There is plenty of blame to go around.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

I agree, blame can go everywhere, from the corporate structure, to every person who consumes oil. However, it was a very specific decision, legal or not, made by BP that led to this disaster. And they have all the resources necessary to clean it up (including an addicted market ready to continue buying their product, i.e. cash on demand). And so they should clean it up, and the law ought to make them.

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Common_Man_Jason
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

True, Jason. They are ultimately responsible for results of their actions just as you or I are for ours...and BP iwas in sort of a catch-22..

BP was following the law. Doing exactly what they were legally required to do. An acoustic shut-off would have been contrary to the legal mandate to maximize profits. It could be perceived as a violation of the law by shareholders.

It's a lack of a legal framework that allowed the spill to become what it has...with no shut-off system in place..

That's why we set regulatory guidelines. It enables corporations to adhere to the legal mandate to maximize profit...within a framework of what they legally must or must not do.

I place the blame more on the Bush Admin. than anyone else at this point.

They should pursue negligence....the probable cause of the explosion.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

polycarp2
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote polycarp2:

BP was following the law. Doing exactly what they were legally required to do. An acoustic shut-off would have been contrary to the legal mandate to maximize profits. It could be perceived as a violation of the law by shareholders.

Not necessarily, because creating a scenario where it's possible to lose so much oil without being able to stop it is clearly contrary to the mandate to maximize profits. Having the shut off valve is the more profitable decision, as it's added insurance to secure the profits.

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Common_Man_Jason
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Sorry, I often ignore some posters rehtorec. Good for your groups for taking charge. Someone has to.

No problem, man. I have to say, that something's different now, as in there's not a lot of hoopla about this. Maybe Americans are just tired of disasters. I don't think that it's a conservative/liberal dichotomy thing though, it seems that it's something else and I haven't heard anyone discuss it as a social phenomena yet.

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jeffbiss
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Well, you're arguing adding a cost of doing business...an emergency shut off sytstem. If it's needed, it maximizes profits. If it isn't, it lowers them. If actuary studies showed shut off system costs outweighed risk, it wouldn't justify a shut-off system.. If actuary studies showed risk outweighed costs, it would.

A judgement call...like fire ins.

If you have fire ins. on your house and it burns down, you've retained capital. If you pay ins. for 30 years, sell the house, and had no fire...you had an unnecesssry deduction from your capital. A judgement call.

Fire ins. firms are on the winning side of most judgement calls. Most homes don't burn down. Personally, I wouldn't be without fire insurance...and I don't have shareholders to question my buying fire ins. based on actuary studies.

Using actuary studies, fire ins. is a very high probable waste of money...and some who aren't required to buy it because of a mortgage obligation....don't.

If the legal mandates of oil firms are to be made clear...we need regulations in place to do that. A benefit of that is the avoidance of environmental disasters.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

polycarp2
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote jeffbiss:
Sorry, I often ignore some posters rehtorec. Good for your groups for taking charge. Someone has to.

No problem, man. I have to say, that something's different now, as in there's not a lot of hoopla about this. Maybe Americans are just tired of disasters. I don't think that it's a conservative/liberal dichotomy thing though, it seems that it's something else and I haven't heard anyone discuss it as a social phenomena yet.

It's being spun from the WhiteHouse and in the media as BP's fault. Bushes fault. Reagans fault. Haliburtons fault. etc...

Who give a flying fck who's fault it is? Anyone want to deal with the current shit storm or is the blame game just too politically effective? Damn, gotta make sure our smoke screen is functioning so the voters will not see how incompetant I am. If the government ever needed a reason to spend tax dollars, this would be an easy sell. Bill BP after the flow is contained and cleanup is done.

A decision making leader would be refreshing to prompt action, as it is needed yesterday. Anyone know where we can get one?

slabmaster
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Apr. 1, 2010 11:12 am
It's being spun from the WhiteHouse and in the media as BP's fault. Bushes fault. Reagans fault. Haliburtons fault. etc...

Who give a flying fck who's fault it is? Anyone want to deal with the current shit storm or is the blame game just too politically effective? Damn, gotta make sure our smoke screen is functioning so the voters will not see how incompetant I am. If the government ever needed a reason to spend tax dollars, this would be an easy sell. Bill BP after the flow is contained and cleanup is done.

A decision making leader would be refreshing to prompt action, as it is needed yesterday. Anyone know where we can get one?

I think that we have to correct the situation that lead to this, which requires a little finger pointing to identify the root of the problem. Finger pointing is part of the process but becomes a distraction if corrective action isn't taken. In the case of this leak, it appears that the blame lays with bad decisions on the drill rig, more than likely because of the fact that the schedule had slipped and BP was losing money. While the Bush administration had more interest in promoting drilling than environmental protection John Hofmeister makes it sound as though the MMS did its job in MMS “cozy” with industry? Hardly, which would imply that Bush/Cheney is not at fault to the degree that certain people would believe.

I just searched for articles about BP's record, I believe covered in another thread on Thom's site, and the fingers should all point at BP. Read Congressmen Raised Concerns About BP Safety Before Gulf Oil Spill and BP Had Other Problems in Years Leading to Gulf Spill to get an idea of how poorly BP was run with regard to safety. BP is simply an irresponsible company. Some people and companies need to be forced to act responsibly.

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jeffbiss
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

I thought this was a thread about who was financially responsible for the clean up in the Gulf?

The reason I so admired Jason's post is because I thought he addressed the issue very well and straight to the point.

It's BP's responsibility to pay for the cleanup. Of course I have wondered why Transocean and Halliburton got off so easily, but I figured it was because they were American companies, and its easier to demonize the foreign entity.

Who's really at fault is another matter, and I suppose there is much shared blame. 8 years of the country being run by oil men enabled the industry to help write legislation which allowed for minimal regulation to maximize profit.

Of course, the Obama administration have been in office 18 months now, so they have certainly had time to change the regulation standards, instead of waiting until disaster struck to do so.

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meljomur
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

BTW, Slab the expertise in the oil industry is far better equiped to clean up an oil spill than the US government. Believe it or not, the industry does have some real top notch talent, who know about these things. Why these people don't seem to be utilized, I have no idea.

I do find it funny that you of all people think the government should involve itself in private industry affairs.

If the brakes go out in my American made car, and I get into an accident. Who does my insurance company bill? The auto company who made the car, or the US government?

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meljomur
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Perhaps this is a little off topic, but this gulf thing is awful!

The government needs to take control over the Gulf oil spill.

Its just like the financial bailout, the govt could have minimized costs to the taxpayers by putting the banks in receivership instead of effectively giving them a blank check.

What's more, if the White House Administration had been on the ball they would have saw the true severity of the problem immediately after the explosion, seized the well (as well as all BP assets located in North America) descended on it with a team of INDEPENDENT experts that would check BP's every decision without delay (it is called the "Army Corp of Engineers" and private experts). It is unconscionable that Associated Press had to report - just today, 40 odd days and 10's of millions of gallons into the spill - that BP's documented environmental plan was abject B***S***t. The plan was a product of a systemic problem that pervades the corporate culture of the BP organization. Without a doubt this organizational problem has manifested itself in other aspects of the firm’s policy's, procedures, and performance in this Oil Spill. Remember, this is the Oil industry - a good that is an economic necessity where the only semblance of oversight (the Govt) has been purchased away with cash contributions for years and years. Think about it. If you were in the same position as BP, say, selling access to air year after year knowing the govt wouldn't do a damn thing all the while making profit until it comes out your ears! Would you even worry about precisely how the firm executed its internal tasks? Especially when in a worst case scenario you wouldn't even get into trouble but rather most likely just keep on making obscene profit?

The administration should have exhibited more savvy (code for evaluated in lieu of what is best for the public) in its dealing with BP. For pete's sake they all can't be that ignorant of BP’s operations! And I would hazard that they are not, and that they know that not a damn thing can really be done to them. Consequences?! pish posh. Our votes - from an indifferent, low information and self absorbed public - are nothing more than a commodity for purchase using the media [Read Al Gore]. He or She who raises the most money wins the election.

"Energy Independence" means "let's not make members of the Oil and Gas industry suffer the added cost of the business risk that comes from operating in a foreign land that is hostile to the U.S. govt". Ever wonder why "Energy Independence" sounds like "Iraq Independence"? Got to sell it to the people. But its all garbage, everyone I talk to doesn't care where their gas was extracted so long as it is extracted and processed using the most environmentally sound methods available and can be purchased at a correspondingly reasonable price.

O'bama needs to Own up to his responsibility for the way this Oil fiasco ramped up, occurred and continues to unfold. Why don’t they? Cash payments from the Oil industry to Salazar, O’bama, and countless other politicians. Appointment by the President himself of a BP board member (Errol B. Davis, Jr.)to the National Commission on Energy Policy, as well as a Board Member of one of BP’s business partner’s ConocoPhillips (William K. Reilly).

Don’t let the President intimidate you. He wants your criticisms to get mired down in technical detail (part of the reason his initiatives produce 1,000 odd page laws!). His administration could take over the unfolding fiasco and done more. He has the resources and experts of an entire country at his disposal and is dealing with a bunch of buffoons turned slackers off govt largess.

btw read the financial statements filed at the SEC.gov and you'll find that most Wall Street banks are hugely invested in the Oil and Gas Industry, it might even be said that in the case of a few of them they are simply gas stations wrapped in bank regulation [Read Antonia Juhasz]

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telliottmbamsc
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May. 20, 2010 4:06 am
Quote slabmaster:

Who give a flying fck who's fault it is? Anyone want to deal with the current shit storm or is the blame game just too politically effective? Damn, gotta make sure our smoke screen is functioning so the voters will not see how incompetant I am. If the government ever needed a reason to spend tax dollars, this would be an easy sell. Bill BP after the flow is contained and cleanup is done.

To begin, you're implying the government and/or other organizations aren't doing anything. That's simply not true.

Secondly, fault is very important when something is destroyed. If someone did something, whether intentional or by neglect, that damaged your house or property, you'd be pretty concerned with whose fault it was, I promise you that. Well, it's our collective "house" that got damaged. Yes, let's do what we need to clean it up (and that *is* happening), but let's also hold those at fault to account for it. People are smart enough to do both.

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Common_Man_Jason
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

BTW, here's a left wing site calling for people to help, with resources to get you started:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/30/deepwater-horizon-oil-spi_n_558...

And I'll bet I could find a list too big to repost here of more calls for help.

So stop believing the right wing cry babies who tell you that no one is doing anything but pointing fingers, when all they're doing is crying about how no one helping.

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Common_Man_Jason
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

The hell with negligence, they should be investigated under the Rico ssatutes for conspiracy. First they conspired to ignore safety procedures which caused the explosion and oil valcano. Then they conspired to cover up the extent of the damage and to hide evidence of wrongdoing.

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hereticus
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Music fans braved a torrential rainstorm in New Orleans for a Benefit Concert raising money for fishermen affected by the Gulf of Mexico Oil Spill. Lenny Kravitz , John Legend , Ani DiFranco , Allen Toussaint and the Preservation Hall Jazz Band , with Mos Def , headlined the "Gulf Aid" Concert Sunday (May 16). The Gulf Relief Foundation is a nonprofit formed in the Spill's aftermath. It says its beneficiaries would include the region's seafood industry and the restoration of Coastal...

http://celebrifi.com/gossip/Music-Fans-Brave-Storm-For-Gulf-Aid-Concert-...

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hereticus
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote meljomur:

BTW, Slab the expertise in the oil industry is far better equiped to clean up an oil spill than the US government. Believe it or not, the industry does have some real top notch talent, who know about these things. Why these people don't seem to be utilized, I have no idea.

I do find it funny that you of all people think the government should involve itself in private industry affairs.

If the brakes go out in my American made car, and I get into an accident. Who does my insurance company bill? The auto company who made the car, or the US government?

Really? that must be why the ploom of oil that is taking over the gulf was stopped in the first week. The best minds are certainly on it and have it under control.

In a case like this where the planet is involved to this extent, I think the government should have every available resource and excersize every option to squeeze BP, Trans Ocean, and anyone else to end the hemmoraging asap. BP can be held financially accountable after the goddam oil flow is stopped. Half of the Gulf of Mexico dying is not the brakes on your car Mel.

The government has the ability to pull every resource from around the world. They could rally every oil industry resource from across the globe. BP can't. WTF does our President do for the last 2 months? nothing....but point fingers at "who's ass he's gonna kick". What a complete worthless bafoon. Politicians are great at playing the blame game. It's what they do. In this case, massive damage is being done daily, and Obama is content making sure his memoirs are in order.

I just heard Norway has suspended all deep water drilling due to this crisis. I thought they were the experts that had all safety measures in place for deep water. Maybe not, eh?

slabmaster
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Apr. 1, 2010 11:12 am
Quote hereticus:

Music fans braved a torrential rainstorm in New Orleans for a Benefit Concert raising money for fishermen affected by the Gulf of Mexico Oil Spill. Lenny Kravitz , John Legend , Ani DiFranco , Allen Toussaint and the Preservation Hall Jazz Band , with Mos Def , headlined the "Gulf Aid" Concert Sunday (May 16). The Gulf Relief Foundation is a nonprofit formed in the Spill's aftermath. It says its beneficiaries would include the region's seafood industry and the restoration of Coastal...

http://celebrifi.com/gossip/Music-Fans-Brave-Storm-For-Gulf-Aid-Concert-...

I've heard of Lenny Kravits....like... 20 years ago when he married that girl from the Cosby show. Preservation Hall jazz band?

I'm glad to hear at least the local Mayberry marching chior is involved. Hollyweird, Bruce Springsteen, Jon Cougar, Willie Nelson, and Oprah must all be on vacation. Heck, where is Spicoli and his sinking rowboat? Where is Michael Moore? How's he gonna eat shrimp if they all die?

slabmaster
Joined:
Apr. 1, 2010 11:12 am
Quote Common_Man_Jason:

BTW, here's a left wing site calling for people to help, with resources to get you started:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/30/deepwater-horizon-oil-spi_n_558...

And I'll bet I could find a list too big to repost here of more calls for help.

So stop believing the right wing cry babies who tell you that no one is doing anything but pointing fingers, when all they're doing is crying about how no one helping.

Jason, I'll bet ya can't.

No right wing crybabies are telling me anything. I just see a huge difference in the reaction from one disaster to another. Bush disaster....big ticket rallying, fundraising, media attention. (good thing even though it gets politicized) Obama disaster....BP's fault. Their problem. No story here as it might expose the worthlessness of the current leadership.

slabmaster
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Apr. 1, 2010 11:12 am
Quote slabmaster:
Quote Common_Man_Jason:

BTW, here's a left wing site calling for people to help, with resources to get you started:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/30/deepwater-horizon-oil-spi_n_558...

And I'll bet I could find a list too big to repost here of more calls for help.

So stop believing the right wing cry babies who tell you that no one is doing anything but pointing fingers, when all they're doing is crying about how no one helping.

Jason, I'll bet ya can't.

No right wing crybabies are telling me anything. I just see a huge difference in the reaction from one disaster to another. Bush disaster....big ticket rallying, fundraising, media attention. (good thing even though it gets politicized) Obama disaster....BP's fault. Their problem. No story here as it might expose the worthlessness of the current leadership.

I know many were hoping that this would be Obama's Katrina, but that's apples to oranges. Katrina (and Haiti) were natural disasters that needed fund raising and/or government help. This is a corporate made disaster, and made by a corporation that has all it needs to clean it up, period. But even that said, that is A LOT of volunteer and government work being done.

Just type "help with oil spill cleanup" in any search engine.

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Common_Man_Jason
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Yeah, you're right.

When BP finds it conveniant to stop to flow clean up the oil, that will be fine.

slabmaster
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Apr. 1, 2010 11:12 am

Katrina and Haiti were very different animals. Governments can address natural disasters. Relief supplies, food, water, shelter, building materials, etc.

Government doesn't have the know-how to stop oil pouring from a seabed a mile down. In our system, that isn't its sphere. There is no agency to cover that sort of thing, and as a consequence, no know-how.

Oil companies, their expertise and the equipment to address the oil blowout are privately owned. It seems to me, they have little of either. Gamblers...like Wall Street. BP lost the bet. We're attempting to pick up the pieces even as chips continue falling from the table.

It can't be addressed by shipping in bottled water and tents.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

polycarp2
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

The other disasters killed 1000's, this one is just those zany environmentalists, the one's on Bush's no fly list.

BP is worth less than book value, is weeks from bankruptcy, which gets you exempt from civil litigation, or at least victims are last in line behind the bond holders, preferred stock, then common stockholders. Stockholders make money from both acquisition [BP's biggest gains] and liquidation.

Maybe Citgo is looking for assets to purchase at firesale prices. Citigroup had BP on a buy rating last week. Upon liquidation you could get 1 share of Citgo for every two BP.

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douglaslee
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Really? that must be why the ploom of oil that is taking over the gulf was stopped in the first week. The best minds are certainly on it and have it under control.

In a case like this where the planet is involved to this extent, I think the government should have every available resource and excersize every option to squeeze BP, Trans Ocean, and anyone else to end the hemmoraging asap. BP can be held financially accountable after the goddam oil flow is stopped. Half of the Gulf of Mexico dying is not the brakes on your car Mel.

Sorry, but I don't see any level of expertise in this discussion that would lead me to think that anyone knows what he or she is talking about with regards of what could or could not or can or cannot be done. Before we start posting the failings or the oil industry or government, I think that we need to discuss reality, such as what the employees of the industry said happened or after doing some research into the technologies employed by the industry.

The central issue, after the bad business decisions that resulted in catastrophic blowout, is what could be done at 5,000'? Let's get specific about the real capabilities, which appears to be centered on those ROVs and the physics at those depths and of drilling in general.

Then, the issue is what needs to be amended to the regulations to help preclude this from happening again.

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jeffbiss
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

So why don't you quit whining, grab a guitar, and go to the gulf coast and start singing?

"COMMUNIST CHINA IS NOT A DEMOCRACY, IT IS A REPUBLIC."

kwikfix
Joined:
Apr. 9, 2010 1:51 pm
Quote kwikfix:

So why don't you quit whining, grab a guitar, and go to the gulf coast and start singing?

"COMMUNIST CHINA IS NOT A DEMOCRACY, IT IS A REPUBLIC."

Don't know how to play and no one would pay me to sing. All I can do from my vantage point is send money to the people on the ground, which I am.

slabmaster
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Apr. 1, 2010 11:12 am
Quote jeffbiss:

Sorry, but I don't see any level of expertise in this discussion that would lead me to think that anyone knows what he or she is talking about with regards of what could or could not or can or cannot be done. Before we start posting the failings or the oil industry or government, I think that we need to discuss reality, such as what the employees of the industry said happened or after doing some research into the technologies employed by the industry.

The central issue, after the bad business decisions that resulted in catastrophic blowout, is what could be done at 5,000'? Let's get specific about the real capabilities, which appears to be centered on those ROVs and the physics at those depths and of drilling in general.

Then, the issue is what needs to be amended to the regulations to help preclude this from happening again.

My understanding is that drilling at such deep level always poses a certain amount of risk. I suppose as Slab posted above, that's why Norway has now banned all deep sea drilling.

However its no big secret that the US oil industry has some of the most lax safety regulations in the world. So in my opinion it was only a matter of time before a disaster of this magnitude happened in US territory.

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meljomur
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