When Globalism Runs Its Course ... The Year America Dissolved
By PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS
It was 2017. Clans were governing America.
The first clans organized around local police forces. The conservatives’ war on crime during the late 20th century and the Bush/Obama war on terror during the first decade of the 21st century had resulted in the police becoming militarized and unaccountable.
As society broke down, the police became warlords. The state police broke apart, and
the officers were subsumed into the local forces of their communities. The newly formed tribes expanded to encompass the relatives and friends of the police.
The dollar had collapsed as world reserve currency in 2012 when the worsening economic depression made it clear to Washington’s creditors that the federal budget deficit was too large to be financed except by the printing of money.
With the dollar’s demise, import prices skyrocketed. As Americans were unable to afford foreign-made goods, the transnational corporations that were producing offshore for US markets were bankrupted, further eroding the government’s revenue base.
The government was forced to print money in order to pay its bills, causing domestic prices to rise rapidly. Faced with hyperinflation, Washington took recourse in terminating Social Security and Medicare and followed up by confiscating the remnants of private pensions. This provided a one-year respite, but with no more resources to confiscate, money creation and hyperinflation resumed.
Organized food deliveries broke down when the government fought hyperinflation with fixed prices and the mandate that all purchases and sales had to be in US paper currency. Unwilling to trade appreciating goods for depreciating paper, goods disappeared from stores.
Washington responded as Lenin had done during the “war communism” period of Soviet history. The government sent troops to confiscate goods for distribution in kind
to the population. This was a temporary stop-gap until existing stocks were depleted, as future production was discouraged. Much of the confiscated stocks became the property of the troops who seized the goods.
Goods reappeared in markets under the protection of local warlords. Transactions were conducted in barter and in gold, silver, and copper coins.
Other clans organized around families and individuals who possessed stocks of food, bullion, guns and ammunition. Uneasy alliances formed to balance differences in clan strengths. Betrayals quickly made loyalty a necessary trait for survival.
Large scale food and other production broke down as local militias taxed distribution as goods moved across local territories. Washington seized domestic oil production and refineries, but much of the government’s gasoline was paid for safe passage across clan territories.
Most of the troops in Washington’s overseas bases were abandoned. As their resource stocks were drawn down, the abandoned soldiers were forced into alliances with those with whom they had been fighting.
Washington found it increasingly difficult to maintain itself. As it lost control over the country, Washington was less able to secure supplies from abroad as tribute from those Washington threatened with nuclear attack. Gradually other nuclear powers realized that the only target in America was Washington. The more astute saw the writing on the wall and slipped away from the former capital city.
When Rome began her empire, Rome’s currency consisted of gold and silver coinage. Rome was well organized with efficient institutions and the ability to supply troops in the field so that campaigns could continue indefinitely, a monopoly in the world of Rome’s time.
When hubris sent America in pursuit of overseas empire, the venture coincided with the offshoring of American manufacturing, industrial, and professional service jobs and the corresponding erosion of the government’s tax base, with the advent of massive budget and trade deficits, with the erosion of the fiat paper currency’s value, and with America’s dependence on foreign creditors and puppet rulers.
The Roman Empire lasted for centuries. The American one collapsed overnight.
Rome’s corruption became the strength of her enemies, and the Western Empire was overrun.
America’s collapse occurred when government ceased to represent the people and became the instrument of a private oligarchy. Decisions were made in behalf of short-term profits for the few at the expense of unmanageable liabilities for the many.
Overwhelmed by liabilities, the government collapsed.
Globalism had run its course. Life reformed on a local basis.
Paul Craig Roberts was an editor of the Wall Street Journal and an Assistant Secretary of the U.S. Treasury. His latest book, HOW THE ECONOMY WAS LOST, has just been published by CounterPunch/AK Press. He can be reached at: PaulCraigRoberts@yahoo.com
Comments
That is some scary mojo right there. I certainly hope it doesn't come to that.
Believe it or not, but conservatives are trying to prevent such a meltdown as well. Sadly, we just disagree with the left on the best way to do this.
So,
If that is our future under Obama, it would be wise to have plenty of guns and ammo and be proficient with their use.
It's only Monday and I have yet another reason to buy another gun. I'm thinkin a new spotting scope while I'm at it.
Thanks Mel!
What a bunch of righty garbage. If you hate America so much, pack your bags and move to Europe.
By the way, there is no "Bush/Obama" war on terror. None, zero, zip, zilch. This war is 100% Bush's disaster. Quit trying to blame the Democrats for the Bush/sick Dick Cheney mess of the 21st century.
http://www.costofwar.com/
I don't normally post these types of stories. However what particularly intrigued me about this article was the fact it was written by a former US Asst. Sec. of the Treasury under Reagan.
Obviously this man has seen firsthand the inside operations of the economics of the US government, and so probably has a fair grasp on the reality of what is happening.
I did a search on him and found out he was one of the initial creators of Reaganomics, so he must certainly feel a bit responsible for the road the US took.
Perhaps he writes these articles as a form of catharsis.
So this a pretty extreme scenario, however it is one I am much more certain will materialize if the next Congress and President are Republicans.
I am not sure having more guns would make me feel any better.
When Mr. Roberts began condemning economic policy, he was booted from his editorial post on the Wall Street Journal.
He was trained in Chicago School Economics....and has seen the disastrous results nationally and globally...particularly in regards to globalization.. He's a conservative I've come to have a great deal of respect for.
I've exchanged e-mail correspondence with him. He's an amazing human being.
Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease".
..
Slab expresses the dangerously adolescent "Spirit of America" that makes me fear the crisis not only for being a huge mess, but also one we are particularly unprepared for. Compassion and sharing are the way out, not hoarding and fortresses. Taking care of one another instead of being afraid of one another would be a major step forward in security.
The people who know how to survive a crisis like this are the poor, not the wealthy. And, when things fall apart, "ownership" does as well. If you have the food we need, your "right" to it disappears. It would be better to build community than to rely on individualism to survive.
Slab expresses the dangerously adolescent "Spirit of America" that makes me fear the crisis not only for being a huge mess, but also one we are particularly unprepared for. Compassion and sharing are the way out, not hoarding and fortresses. Taking care of one another instead of being afraid of one another would be a major step forward in security.
The people who know how to survive a crisis like this are the poor, not the wealthy. And, when things fall apart, "ownership" does as well. If you have the food we need, your "right" to it disappears. It would be better to build community than to rely on individualism to survive.
It's odd how you don't recognize that conservatives donate far far more to charitable organizations than liberals. Compassion and sharing are on the rise in the conservative community. It must be tough to watch that while stuck in your own ideology of "bush did it". Ownership in my opinion is ownership. I wouldn't attempt to confiscate your belongings and expect the same consideration. If you think you will determine my "rights" based on your fantasy crisis, reconsidering that strategy would be....prudent.
Now that's pretty funny, for the guy who sees gloom and doom in Obama. There's not one post of yours regarding Obamahat displays this "cup half full" BS.
It's too bad that the Republicans reduced the "nanny state" to a ninny state that operated on the failed "free market" ideology. Remove the nanny and the ninnys take over. Thanks conservatives, including you slab!
Donating to church's and to spread the "word" doesn't count as charity. And conservatism owns the current state of affairs as it was due to your failed free market ideology.
Slab, I don't think that "changing horses" will result in anything different. The arrow is in flight, can't be deflected and heading straight for the target. Read Robert's article again: the culprit is the oligarchy IOW concentrated wealth. There needs to be a global law that forbids concentrated wealth. Limit the amount of estates to around 10 million dollars. That was the point of progressive taxes: not to collect more for the government but to avoid concentrated wealth and influence by discouraging it.
I don't think that Thom has had Roberts on as a guest. I think it would be interesting and they would find agreement on many things.
Just stop giving rich people $700 billion handouts. Right-wingers are the the most vile socialists on earth. The most vile hypocrites too.
Slab, do you ever have anything intelligent to add to these discussions, or are you just stuck on a continuous loop of right wing talking points?
Its great your life is wonderful. I am sure you are not alone. But for millions of Americans life becomes more challenging and difficult every day.
You don't want to see that, its your choice. But not everyone chooses to hide from reality.
You are a very naive, childish man sometimes. I think DRC was being kind in his assessment (And yes, I know you are OLDER than I am!).
I agree capt. I think Roberts would be a great guest for Thom to have on. Perhaps we could make a suggestion to Louise.
Slab, do you ever have anything intelligent to add to these discussions, or are you just stuck on a continuous loop of right wing talking points?
quote]You don't want to see that, its your choice. But not everyone chooses to hide from reality.
You are a very naive, childish man sometimes. I think DRC was being kind in his assessment (And yes, I know you are OLDER than I am!).
[/quote] "Hide from reality".....hmmmmm.....LOL.....
Why the personal insults Mel? I thought with your new promotion and added responsibility, that you would lead by example and not fall back to your old name calling and personal insult routine. Not sure why "older" has anything to do with you or me, but I'm sure it's reeeeally intelligent.
Also, because corporations are legal entities created by the government, they should have rules about board and officer pay, such as no more than 10 times that of the average worker. If CEOs and boards don't like it then they can not incorporate and go for it. There is absolutely no reason that incorporation should allow a good for nothing CEO to make more than say 10 times that of his or her workers. They do virtually nothing except "guide the ship", which equates to knowing people willing to pay an exorbitant salary.
Remarkable.
Polycarp, believe it or not, I have also exchanged personal correspondence with Mr. Roberts. He was a conservative, but I think he gets the drift of what's been happening in the world of economics. I don't think his dire scenario will come true, but I think it is already somewhat true, which is bad enough.
DRC's statement is just an expression of basic progressive philosophy. I am surprised that this wouldn't seem like common sense to any progressive.
Remarkable.
What is so remarkable about caring about other people?
This is a real stark difference between progressives and conservatives. And please spare me the Republicans donate more to charity crap. For one thing, if its true, its probably only because their donations are tax deductable.
You don't live in isolation, so if you want to live in society, you have to act as such.
Although I might add if all the conservatives went and lived on their own island it might make the US a much better place
Hi Natural Lefty, we have missed you here.
I think his prognosis of America's future is interesting. While there is a whiff of futuristic, sc-fi movie to it. There is a part of me that honestly believes if the divisions between rich and poor increases, and more and more of the middle classes start falling into the poor category, at some point there is a tipping of scales.
Also, consider the fact that the majority of Americans own guns, and it isn't very difficult to see how this scenario could materialize.
What perplexes me to a great extent is why people who have money believe this is a desirable outcome? Why would they want the US to become some kind of police state where the most violent gangs were able to seize control? I guess its true most of these people live so isolated to reality that they have no idea what is happening in so many parts of America.
Exactly. If you've got it, and we want it, you have no right to it.
Come on Slab, you can do much better than that. That's all you have.
Ouch!
Slab wrote:
"Compared to the zero effort made by those liberal internet warriors that profess to "care" about people? Republicans and conservatives have shown time and again that they donate more, feed more, help more, etc."
poly replies: Well, a lot of that is by conservative Christian Fundies donating to their churches...so their leaders can buy new mansions with the 10% tithe..
Rather than tossing crumbs, it would probably be better to have an economy that worked for everyone rather than a few.
Andrew Carnegie donated a lot,.... however.... his set goons on striking workers and build them a library mind-set was a bit weird.
The U.S. wouldn't be the first nation to devolve into chaos and destitution from the neo-liberal economics. shared by both political parties.
The economist Batra refers to Chicago School economists as prostitutes. Roberts was more genteel...referring to them as having "sold their souls for filthy lucre".
Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"
What is so remarkable about caring about other people?
This is a real stark difference between progressives and conservatives. And please spare me the Republicans donate more to charity crap. For one thing, if its true, its probably only because their donations are tax deductable.
Compared to the zero effort made by those liberal internet warriors that profess to "care" about people? Republicans and conservatives have shown time and again that they donate more, feed more, help more, etc... It's the truth Mel, and it eats you alive to have to face it. Liberals want to conficate others belongings, but are too cheap to donate their own.
Who wants to live in isolation?
With the poor people starving because liberals won't donate a dime to feed them? Who the hell would do the hard work Mel? If you really want to redistribute others property, why don't you lead by example and donate your own?
Come on Slab, you can do much better than that. That's all you have.
Ouch!
I guess this is what follows the personal insults and name calling. From a moderator no less...I'm stunned.
I would ask why, if "caring" is what liberals are all about, why don't they "care" enough to donate to charitable causes that feed, house, and clothe people? I have no problem with anyone contributing to charities whether they be church related or not. Why would the liberals on this board denounce giving to charity?
It is glaringly obvious that those here who squak the most about what is fair and righteous, and how the evil "rich" are only concerned about themselves, never contribute a nickle to help or "care" for anyone but themselves. I think it's fine to care only about yourself if thats what you want to do, but to read all the hand wringing and blame gaming of who "deserves" what, and how you are going to confiscate it, is beyond idiotic.
You'll willfully steal someone elses belongings to donate to others (so you say), but won't lift a finger or donate anything you have actually worked for or earned (if you work, that is).
Sets a new standard for the word... hypocrite.
Slab wrote: "With the poor people starving because liberals won't donate a dime to feed them?"
poly replies: Probably, Slab, I donate a greater percentage of my income than you do. Close to 20%. Probably banksters aren't donating 20% of their billion dollar bonuses. I do have to retain enough for my own living expenses that are pretty meager.. And no, I couldn't match your capabilities.
I'm reminded of Scripture...where the woman who gave her penney... all she had.....gave more than anyone.
Or the woman living in a hut with a mud floor and broken windows during the Great Depression when asked what she would do if given $100 . Her answer..."give it to the poor." She understood poverty....even greater than her own.
The poor can't bail the poor to any extent that makes a real dufference...though they often try.,.Some are mis-guided conservatives.
Donations aren't the solution. Re-structuring the economy so it works for everyone is. the solution. The need for donations should become an archaic relic of the past.
The nation is melting down around our ears...and donations won't be able to address it..
Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"
Meljomur, I never went anywhere. I post more blogs than anyone else on this site, probably. Things here seem to favor the message board, but I am primarily a blogger.
SWTO, I was referring to the positive effects of compassion on society. The common sense that I wsa referring to was that love works. However, there is a point at which rich people's claim to wealth they don't deserve becomes excessive and a detriment to society, and we are far beyond that point in this culture.
Slab wrote: "With the poor people starving because liberals won't donate a dime to feed them?"
poly replies: Probably, Slab, I donate a greater percentage of my income than you do. Close to 20%. Probably banksters aren't donating 20% of their billion dollar bonuses. I do have to retain enough for my own living expenses that are pretty meager.. And no, I couldn't match your capabilities.
Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"
I'll do what I can to always thwart the creating of a worthless and weak society.
No Slab, not egging you on. That's far too easy anyway. Just wish you had something new and intelligent to add to these discussions.
Actually poly is a brilliant example of someone who has not only donated all of his money to worthy causes, but his time and energy as well.
Its really none of your business how much money or time I have donated to others over the decades. Its been more than sufficient, and I help out as much as I can.
The only reason you are successful and earn a decent living, is because you live in a SOCIETY which allows for your particular company to do well. When that society breaks down (which I am more and more convinced will happen in America, especially when the Republicans get back into power). Your ability to maintain that level of success will be greatly diminished.
You think people who don't work are lazy. Well what if there are no jobs? And what an incredibly naive way to view millions of unemployed people. And as this number grows, which it most surely will over the years, people will become angry and lose faith. Once you lose faith in the system, and you have nothing to lose, you tend to turn to crime and violence.
You don't live in a bubble Slab. You live in a country. Your life is not representative of every one's. You are not better than the man without a job who can no longer pay his mortgage. And in a small way his inability to pay for his life and his families effects us all. (now multiply that by millions-get the picture)
So unless you really like the idea of a decaying society, and the race to the bottom for America. You should try to do more than just donate a few measly dollars to some random charity, where you have no idea where the money actually goes. That's hardly a smart way to do things.
Open your eyes. Pay attention. I hope that your years of contribution to this board are more than just wanting to play juvenile games with a bunch of progressives.
If that's all it is, you are wasting your time, as well as ours.
Slab wrote: "With the poor people starving because liberals won't donate a dime to feed them?"
I'll do what I can to always thwart the creating of a worthless and weak society.
Do you mean like-----giving $700 billion to the Wall Street scum. Or are you tired of defending Right-Wing Socialism?
This bird has two wings.
The Italian bird has 250 wings.
No Slab, not egging you on. That's far too easy anyway. Just wish you had something new and intelligent to add to these discussions.
If that's all it is, you are wasting your time, as well as ours.
Slab wrote: I think thats great. I just asked where his [poly's] money originates since he is proud to contribute 20% of it to who-knows. If it originates from the dole funded by people that earn it, is it a donation from the heart? I will say that Entitlement money donated to charity is better than feeding crack habits.
poly replies: A strawman slab. Soc. Security isn't "welfare". I paid into it for years. In addition, a private retirement plan was rolled over into Soc. Security. (RR Retirement)
At one time I paid more in taxes every year than most people earn in a year. I figure I've more than paid for my under $20 in Food Stamps I've applied for...so i can give more food to those needing it....nutrient-fortified baked goods. Kids love my cinnamon rolls...nearly equivalent ounce per ounce to eating a steak.
My own diet consists mainly of breads supplemented with soy flour (protein), lentils, beans and rice. A monks diet. My veggies and fruit come from my sister's garden when they are in season.. A dollar for an orange is too much...a luxury item..The poor don't buy them.
I do have a vast library...a library system that pulls from 4 states and Colorado's public universities. . My previous taxes paid for my use of it... many times over. Of course, the Repugnants want to close them so they'll have the money to pay for the bailouts of finance. It's called "austerity".. If they shut them down, I want a refund..
As a percentage of income, I think you'll find the poor a great deal more generous than the wealthy.And donations can't address the economic/environmental meltdown.
This absurd country can't even agree that water is a basic human right. It abstained on the U.N. Resolution stating that....as though life can be maintained without it. It wants the door open to privatize every last drop in every river, every aquifier, every lake....and charge what the market will bear.. People die when that happens...and they revolt as in Bolivia..
The U.S. is in a meltdown from its wacky policies designed to serve a few...
Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease" .
By the way for those who dare visiting the "hinterlands" Alex Jones has Roberts on his show today. If you go the Infowars web site after around 3PM PDT you can usually download the podcast.
www.infowars.com
poly replies: A strawman slab. Soc. Security isn't "welfare". I paid into it for years. In addition, a private retirement plan was rolled over into Soc. Security. (RR Retirement)
The U.S. is in a meltdown from its wacky policies designed to serve a few...
Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease" .
There are jobs Mel. people choose not to accept them. The all too common excuse is that the job isn't good enough. The truth is that many unemployed simply choose not to work when they can receive a check for not working.
Sometimes that can be the most rational course of action.
Twenty-five years ago I was an engineer at AT&T; my first job out of engineering school. I'll admit up front that my big mistake was taking the job in the first place. I hadn't properly researched the company's situation or I wouldn't have walked into a company being broken up like that. But it was the only job offer I had in hand (Reagan's recession) and I couldn't see staying in school and racking up more debt.
I survived the first round of cuts and plant closings. Worked as a QC engineer in suburban Chicago for a while. Then they closed that plant and layed off a few thousand workers. There was nowhere in the system for me to go. Sent out resumes and interviewed, and yes, I collected unemployment during that time. Was offered a job at a small manufacturer and jumped at it. Didn't work out; not every job does. They wanted me to fix their quality problems in a week. Thing is they didn't really have significant QC problems; they made sump pumps -- the kind you put in your basement and hook up a hose to the backyard. People would buy one to pump out the basement after a water heater disaster and then take it back to the store for a refund. Store would then send the "defective" pumps back.
By this time I was "tainted" in the job market. So I worked temp jobs and then worked as a bartender for a few months. Eventually decided to do something radical and important and enlisted in the Navy. I never totally lost my dream of getting back into engineering so nine years later I got out. Managed a Radio Shack, sold cars, literally went broke. Moved back to my home town and took the only job I could find around here; truck driving. Applications and resumes for something more attuned to my education and abilities went unanswered.
Now I'm defined as a truck driver; my education and abilities matter not one whit. Particularly to people like you that likely see me as a failure. Well, I've done whatever I had to do to support my family. Hopefully my experience will serve as a cautionary tale to my daughter in college.
If I had to do it all over again I should have either turned down AT&T and stayed in school or went back to school after I got laid off. I thought working instead of incurring more debt was a better idea. I thought potential employers would respect the fact that I was working at all to meet my obligations as a husband and father.
I was wrong.
I believe being defined as a currently unemployed engineer would have been better than getting defined as a blue-collar worker. There's nothing wrong with being blue-collar but there's apparently no turning back. I couldn't recommend it to any unemployed professional.
Sometimes that can be the most rational course of action.
Twenty-five years ago I was an engineer at AT&T; my first job out of engineering school. I'll admit up front that my big mistake was taking the job in the first place. I hadn't properly researched the company's situation or I wouldn't have walked into a company being broken up like that. But it was the only job offer I had in hand (Reagan's recession) and I couldn't see staying in school and racking up more debt.
I survived the first round of cuts and plant closings. Worked as a QC engineer in suburban Chicago for a while. Then they closed that plant and layed off a few thousand workers. There was nowhere in the system for me to go. Sent out resumes and interviewed, and yes, I collected unemployment during that time. Was offered a job at a small manufacturer and jumped at it. Didn't work out; not every job does. They wanted me to fix their quality problems in a week. Thing is they didn't really have significant QC problems; they made sump pumps -- the kind you put in your basement and hook up a hose to the backyard. People would buy one to pump out the basement after a water heater disaster and then take it back to the store for a refund. Store would then send the "defective" pumps back.
By this time I was "tainted" in the job market. So I worked temp jobs and then worked as a bartender for a few months. Eventually decided to do something radical and important and enlisted in the Navy. I never totally lost my dream of getting back into engineering so nine years later I got out. Managed a Radio Shack, sold cars, literally went broke. Moved back to my home town and took the only job I could find around here; truck driving. Applications and resumes for something more attuned to my education and abilities went unanswered.
Now I'm defined as a truck driver; my education and abilities matter not one whit. Particularly to people like you that likely see me as a failure. Well, I've done whatever I had to do to support my family. Hopefully my experience will serve as a cautionary tale to my daughter in college.
If I had to do it all over again I should have either turned down AT&T and stayed in school or went back to school after I got laid off. I thought working instead of incurring more debt was a better idea. I thought potential employers would respect the fact that I was working at all to meet my obligations as a husband and father.
I was wrong.
I believe being defined as a currently unemployed engineer would have been better than getting defined as a blue-collar worker. There's nothing wrong with being blue-collar but there's apparently no turning back. I couldn't recommend it to any unemployed professional.
If you think I look I look at you as a failure, you are 180 degrees backwards. I look at what you do in the face of adversity as a testiment to the willpower of a great American and a responsible adult. I don't judge people harshly that try to better themselves and their situation, I celebrate them! If you had sat on your ass whining about how unfair life is and expected an entitlement by birthright, I would be critical. But, you didn't.
I don't get the "I'm defined" statements you make when describing your occupation. I drove a truck for 4 years. I'm not a "truck driver" and more than I'm a "carpet installer" as I did that for 2 years out of high school. I sold vacuum cleaners, pictures on a street corner, washe dishes, cooked, swept floors, mucked out foundations, processed fish, pulled weeds, managed Teamsters, and now own a couple of businesses. I've never seen any one of those occupations as "defining" me. I think diversity gives you experience and character. It makes you appreciate a days work and what it takes to feed your family.
You say there is no turning back from blue collar. I disagree completely. It was all I had ever done until I decided... not to. Actually, I digress a little, I was a white collar manager in charge of blue collar truck drivers. I found the white collar job to be far more dog eat dog than the Teamster truck drivers. It drove me out for fear that I would end up in jail for beating my boss senseless, or having and ulcer getting my chain yanked by upper management. The image foisted upon us by our government schooling is that "professional" jobs are the bestest and most sought after. I've found that everyone has to find their own path. What's good for you may not be good for me and we shouldn't have that society expectation forced on us. I don't give 2 shits about what hoity toity people think I should be doing for a living.
There are opportunities beyond belief for those willing. One key factor is to not slide into the trap of what society "expects" you to be. Potential employers do view your efforts in a more positive way than a candidate that has done nothing but milk the dole. If they milk the dole, they'll likely milk the company. I just turfed a guy for that cancerous mentality. Everyone "owed" him a living and he dragged people backwards. Fck him, he can starve.
What kind of engineer are you? What skills do you bring to the table?
Life is short, make every minute count.
All I can say Slab, is if you actually took the time to think "outside the box" and didn't have so a narrow view of the world, you might be able to make a difference.
But all I see is a small minded, conservative man, who believes that if everyone doesn't achieve what he has they are a stain on society.
Oh well, I think the term is "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"
All I can say Slab, is if you actually took the time to think "outside the box" and didn't have so a narrow view of the world, you might be able to make a difference.
But all I see is a small minded, conservative man, who believes that if everyone doesn't achieve what he has they are a stain on society.
Oh well, I think the term is "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"
Insulting other posters, baiting, taunting, by the moderator no less .......I'm truly shocked considering this is a "progressive" website.
Mel, in arguing over the years with conservatives on many forums including here they are often the first to retreat when challenged by claiming ad hominem attacks. This ads a lot of credibility to psychologists claims that Republicans were the whiny kids who always went running to the teacher or mommy. ;)
Capt., we had a conservative poster once who constantly compared me to Stalin and Pol Pot (The Butcher of Cambodia)...and implied I was responsible for the deaths of tens of millions. I could have banned him. subsequent to that...and didn't. He did, however, complain to the Administrator. many times about how unfair I was.
I tend to take it on the chin...and intervene for others only when playful bantering crosses the line. and becomes downright nasty.
The Board is more civil now. Rules of civility are adhered to. I prefer it that way. I think most others do too. Board Membership and guests on-line at any one time are way up from just six months ago.. I'm astounded by it.
Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"
Mel, in arguing over the years with conservatives on many forums including here they are often the first to retreat when challenged by claiming ad hominem attacks. This ads a lot of credibility to psychologists claims that Republicans were the whiny kids who always went running to the teacher or mommy. ;)
No, in fact and fundamentally you're fortunate to live in this society that allows you to hold title to property and protect your rights, including access to fresh water. You couldn't have paid for it in other countries, such as Bolivia, because your land would have been appropriated. You like to think that you're a self made man and you're not to the extent you think you are. Much of it comes from the opportunities provided by your fellow citizens and our culture. If you really think you're such a self made man, go ahead and try your experimenting of making your way in Mexico and we'll see how tough a conservative you really are.
The Bolvians elected Morales, re-wrote their Constitution and took their water back from the transnationals...in effect telling the U.S. backed IMF and World Bank to go to hell.
It probably now has the most progressive Constitution on the planet.. I hope they're allowed to keep it.
Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"
Something this scenario leaves out, foreign intervention. Who isn't to say that, out of fear of the massive stockpile of WMDs, that either the UN or some coalition of countries who may want to "safeguard" them. I suspect that the politicians in London or Beijing or even Ottawa wouldn't be sleeping well at night knowing that the toys of the empire may fall into the hands of these so-called warlords. An America in complete political disarray would offer an opportunity to a major military or security intelligence apparatus that simply wouldn't be there otherwise. It wouldn't be a pretty picture nor an easy operation, but I wouldn't discount "peace keepers" on US soil.
No, in fact and fundamentally you're fortunate to live in this society that allows you to hold title to property and protect your rights, including access to fresh water. You couldn't have paid for it in other countries, such as Bolivia, because your land would have been appropriated. You like to think that you're a self made man and you're not to the extent you think you are. Much of it comes from the opportunities provided by your fellow citizens and our culture. If you really think you're such a self made man, go ahead and try your experimenting of making your way in Mexico and we'll see how tough a conservative you really are.
I love this country ans feel it is extraordinary. I appreciate the great opportunities we have. What is baffling is reading the masters of doom posts here and wodering if it's done for comedy relief.
Jeff, I don't live in shithole Bolivia or 3rd world Mexico. Don't want to, don't need to, and probably ain't gonna.I don't speak spanish and probably never will. Who the fck would want to move there anyways when I live in Gods country. Challenging me to move to Mexico is ...weird. Actually, I do enjoy fishing for Marlin in Los Barilles and make it a yearly pilgrimage.
Yoy coin the term "self made man", I don't. I just don't appreciate slackers milking the system and living off of the dole as an entitlement. They are a cancer to our great society and human leaches. I've found most things can be accomplished through hard work and determination. If you feel that is all due to other people and our system, so be it. I would just ask, WTF is wrong with all of the lazy bastards that sit on their asses crying about how there are no opportunities when you yourself state that America has opportunities due to the people and society we live in and hoe fortunate we all are? I agree with you. We are fortunate.
Something this scenario leaves out, foreign intervention. Who isn't to say that, out of fear of the massive stockpile of WMDs, that either the UN or some coalition of countries who may want to "safeguard" them. I suspect that the politicians in London or Beijing or even Ottawa wouldn't be sleeping well at night knowing that the toys of the empire may fall into the hands of these so-called warlords. An America in complete political disarray would offer an opportunity to a major military or security intelligence apparatus that simply wouldn't be there otherwise. It wouldn't be a pretty picture nor an easy operation, but I wouldn't discount "peace keepers" on US soil.
Mel, in arguing over the years with conservatives on many forums including here they are often the first to retreat when challenged by claiming ad hominem attacks. This ads a lot of credibility to psychologists claims that Republicans were the whiny kids who always went running to the teacher or mommy. ;)
Oh, I am well aware of the level of "intelligence" I am dealing with here. I have now been on this MB for nearly 4 years (never been banned), and if I let the childish taunts of the conservatives bug me, I would have been gone years ago.
I understand the person who always finds the need to tell everyone else how great his life is (including all the stuff he owns), is actually the most insecure.
No, in fact and fundamentally you're fortunate to live in this society that allows you to hold title to property and protect your rights, including access to fresh water. You couldn't have paid for it in other countries, such as Bolivia, because your land would have been appropriated. You like to think that you're a self made man and you're not to the extent you think you are. Much of it comes from the opportunities provided by your fellow citizens and our culture. If you really think you're such a self made man, go ahead and try your experimenting of making your way in Mexico and we'll see how tough a conservative you really are.
jeff, the really tragic thing is, is the fact that Slab and those like him want to turn America into Mexico.
I just don't think he quite comprehends that fact, and I doubt he ever will.
Oh, I am well aware of the level of "intelligence" I am dealing with here. I have now been on this MB for nearly 4 years (never been banned), and if I let the childish taunts of the conservatives bug me, I would have been gone years ago.
I understand the person who always finds the need to tell everyone else how great his life is (including all the stuff he owns), is actually the most insecure.
Life IS great Mel. In fact, it gets better every day. I appreciate each day above ground and try to make the most of it. Life is also very short and wasting it seems foolish to me.
Sorry I can't follow your lead and whine about how life sucks and we're all doomed. Being miserable is your choice, just don't get any on me.
It ain't in my DNA.
I just don't think he quite comprehends that fact, and I doubt he ever will.
I don't think that he and his ilk want to turn America into Mexico but that they really believe that they live in some bubble, that they really don't depend on any others. For example, he claims that he drilled the well. Well, he didn't. A machine made by someone else did, or he hired someone to do it. They ignore the fact that it is because we are social beings and cooperate that we have what we have, both good and bad. That we do indeed have obligations to one another, starting with fundamentals such as acknowledging the concept of "property", even when it may benefit one to ignore it for some short term gain.
It would probably be difficult to find someone to drill a well in many 3rd world countries. Their economies are so destitute from feeding their own oligarchies...they can't afford to import much of the equipment.
They certainly don't know how to make well-drilling equipment...and haven't developed the "real capital" of a factory and businesses feeding into it to make it if they could. (Things we are quickly shipping to China).Their own oligarchies invest in foreign markets...not in their own countries.Their nations are for bleeding...not development. Sort of like it is here now..
.That's problem #1. Problem #2 is, money spent on education is so low, finding someone with the knowledge to operate the equipment would be another problem. Being able to read an instruction book would help.
Some school districts in Colo. are considering cutting 3 months off the school year because they are going broke. Can't pay the teachers and the electric bills. Banksters, like those in every 3rd world country, are doing well relative to their populations. . Move over 3rd world, here we come. Our oligarchy is breaking us...just as theirs did.
As noted by the Fathers of Economics years a go...when a nation exports its capital, production or labor costs...it impoverishes itself.
Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"
jeff, the really tragic thing is, is the fact that Slab and those like him want to turn America into Mexico.
I just don't think he quite comprehends that fact, and I doubt he ever will.
I agree, I think that is indeed the grand plan. The US economy as it is and especially was is unsustainable. It was based way too much on credit. The elite class knows this but they can't just come out and say it as they fear that indeed the people would get off their duffs and revolt. They can't have this as they want to stay in control after the transition. So they engineer the transition to operate covertly and slowly and label those of us who notice as "conspiracy kooks."