August 31, 2010 - While listening to the Thom Hartmann show in Dish TV Network today, my ears perked up when hearing a caller from Michigan warn about the "takeover" of Muslims in his community.
Normally, I dismiss these kinds of callers as out there on the fringe. But this caller asked a question that brought up a concern I had not heard yet: (paraphrased) "Did you know that we can no longer have weddings on Saturday because the Muslims have taken control of the governing body?"
Thom ignored the question and deflected the issue to one that was prominent when "he was a kid in the '60s" - the "black question".
Sorry Thom - apples and oranges. The blacks in this country were not trying to change government because of their religious beliefs, as it seems the Muslims in your caller's Michigan town actually did. You did not address the caller's most important question - racism on the other side; what the Muslims in this country think of their fellow Americans.
When ANY group tells another they can not have a wedding on a certain day because it goes against a specific religious tenant, that group is wrong, period. In this case, I believe the viewer has good cause for concern,
The longer I listen to the Thom Hartmann program, the more I'm left thinking, "This guy is formally educated, but he's also arrogant and subjectively opinionated. I don't believe he's going to change the world."
Thom, I used to respect you when I first began listening. Now I see beyond the veil, through the mask. I won't miss you.
Comments
I don't agree that blacks haven't used government to enact their religious beliefs as law, for example as laws making it illegal to sell alcohol or cars on Sunday, because many Christians have. Regardless, that call provided a great reason to discuss the separation of church and state, and yes the caller had a valid concern. But, hey, we all make mistakes and listen incorrectly, so I hope Thom really listens to his callers which he didn't seem to in this case.
Didn't hear the call, not familiar with the issue - but my first instinct is that the caller is full of crap.
hgov - YOU should research it and post a link, before you haul off against Thom.
Where is your BS detector ? Why so credulous ?
I did some Googling to try to find out to what the caller may have been referring. I would be quite surprised if there was any such law anywhere in America.
It is entirely within the realm of possibility for a cult, or sect, or religious majority to take over a small town. I seem to remember an attempt of this sort tried in Antelope, Oregan in the 1980's, where a Hindu sect of some sort gained enough seats on the city council to start making demands. However, this may be an urban legend. I don't claim it as a fact. The point is that democracy does not always work out so well, when a majority of the population is ignorant of the Constitution and the rights of minorities. I can imagine any number of egregious abuses taking place, where an authoritarian majority rules at the expense of civil liberty.
Certainly, there are many small towns where Christians on city councils, or on school boards, have done great harm to non-Christians in their communities, by ignoring their Constitutional rights—kids forced to pray in class, or salute the flag, and so forth. Theocracy is what scares me, no matter the religion.
And, by the way, I disagree with Thom on one thing: Fear is not always driven by hate. Sometimes LOVE is underneath it. I love my Constitution, and it freaking scares me to see what has happened to it in the past ten years.
Feh, whatever. Post a link or stfu.
Feh, whatever. Post a link or stfu.
I don't know if you're talking to me, but assuming you are, perhaps I could suggest you try using your imagination, that is, your brains, before resorting to childish vulgarities. A link is not required. I merely said "it is within the realm of possibility." So, you can either think for a moment, or you could go do your own research, if your powers of imagination are so paltry that you cannot imagine the possibilities.
Search suggestions: ACLU sues Christian school board... (and so forth)
I've been saying this forever...
Conservatives love to promote "taking religion into government" because Christians are the majority.
But what's going to happen when Muslims or other religion are the majority in a town, city, state and want to "take religion into government"? Are conservatives going to support that "majority's religion rules"?
I bet a million dollars that they won't support that.
Hmmm. Like if there was anything to this we wouldn't have been subjected to a hugely disproportionate amount of coverage of it.
The main purpose of the "Mosque" issue and the "Beck-bookselling" event seems to have been in hopes of commandeering the airwaves away from two other known-in-advance, end of August, calendar events:
The 5-year anniversary of the Katrina Debacle and the Down-Turn in Iraq.
Doesn't appear to have worked as well as they hoped - thanks in large part to the absence of contrivable-footage from the Lincoln Memorial.
Great - now we get links - from spammers.
ZZ - my impatience is directed at the OP. Apparently just another hit and run Islamaphobe slob - just dropping by to take a cheap shot at Thom. That you rise to abstract defense of his baseless twaddle is of no interest to me.
What is your problem, Corazon—"You're either with us, or you're against us" sort of "baseless twaddle?" Black & white mentality? Either we conform to your opinion, or we're "Islamaphobes?" There's no room for critical thinking? Religion can do no wrong? Nothing can go wrong, where religion and government merge? Criticize an authoritarian group (which Muslims are NOT necessarily, but can be), and you're a "phobe" of some kind, a racist, or an anti-semite, or some other label to stigmatize dissent or discussion? If you consider the possibility that a group COULD take over a town, you're intolerant of religion?
Give me a break. Nobody wants to see the persecution of any group based on how they look, or their affiliation, or based on gender, race, religion or sexual identity, or whatever. However, looking at realities, such as a group's world view, and considering how this might affect the community as a whole is not persecution. But it just might be prudent. It just might help forestall outcomes that are not in the best interest of the community as a whole.
Why romanticize tolerance? Intolerance can be a terrible thing, but so can blind, silly obedience to liberal ideology. How many of the followers of Jim Jones, for example, could have saved themselves had they scrutinized him and his liberal theology a bit closer? How many saw the red flags, but remained, because of his charisma and message: "If you're born in capitalist America, racist America, fascist America, then you're born in sin. But if you're born in socialism, you're not born in sin." Well, you and I might not be taken in by such poppycock, but many were—because they were naive.
In short, corazon, let's not be blind or naive. Let's be critical thinkers. Nobody is always right; nobody is perfect. Thom is not a god and beyond fault, despite all appearances to the contrary.
I do think it would be refreshing if journalists, by applying proffessionalism, could keep their objective delivery of the news--all sides of a story--rather than adding their subjective opinion to every story. Thom has reasonable opinions for the most part, but being subjective makes people feel they're being coerced into an opinion. The right banks on doing this. Regular viewers of right wing shows have got to see this and get tired of it. If they stumble onto Thom's show, they might be more likely to stick around if they don't feel it's more of the same crap, just from the other side. I must say that Thom is nowhere near as bad with this as most right wing hosts, but money runs the media. Sometimes you have to fight fire with water.
ZZ - just post a link to back up the garbage in the OP.
thanks.
Mark Hamilton--Merced, CA There's your link to my opinions. I'm not trying to back up that garbage. I doubt that it's possible--certainly not to your satisfaction.
Yeah, my standards are crazy high. Bizarre how i find discussion of something which has absolutely no proven basis in fact to be a complete wank fest.
Have fun
This country is becoming more and more polarized, in part because of the acceptance of news media as political propaganda. I've got some propaganda for liberals--money owns the media and you will lose a propaganda war against it. Again, refer to my previous link.
Corazon, you seem to just want to argue or demean peoples opinions. It's like you don't understand that I agree that the OP is probably hogwash.
Yeah, my standards are crazy high.
More like crazy low.
Bizarre how i find discussion of something which has absolutely no proven basis ...
Explain yourself. Exactly what do need proof for? You've been given examples, plenty of them, yet you persist in your failure of imagination.
You prove the post here this week about how facts cannot convince people of anything, as long as they are committed to their position and cannot face being wrong.
I realize it's tough when you cannot control what other people think. But try, corazon. Try to think of this as my exercising my right to think independently of you.
Didn't hear the call, not familiar with the issue - but my first instinct is that the caller is full of crap.
hgov - YOU should research it and post a link, before you haul off against Thom.
Where is your BS detector ? Why so credulous ?
I heard that call, and I thought the caller was a crank. I did a search on it and found nothing.
We're supposed to believe this is a law?
It's more likely that a Muslim is county clerk and just doesn't work on Saturdays so you can't get a last minute marriage license.
Promoting a theocracy is one of the core principles of conservatives. Therefore, conservatives should be the last people to say "A religious group is taking over the government" Because that's what conservatives promote every single day.
So why is it different when they do it? Why don't conservatives say that about other religions?
Regarding my point about the limits of tolerance and unfounded charges of "racism" as a means of controlling thought, here's one example to consider:
(Headline:) Head accused of 'Islamophobia' wins £400,000 after being forced out by Muslim governors
"The Daily Mail can reveal the school's troubles started when a local mosque decided to pack the governing body with Muslims.
Paul Martin - a Muslim convert - and Mumtaz Saleem began monopolising meetings with the aim of turning New Monument in Woking into an Islamic faith school....
The judge said the council's 'excessive tolerance' of the Muslim governors' behaviour, its 'misplaced sympathy' for Mr Martin - and its failure to provide Mrs Connor with proper support were the reasons for her depression."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1163194/400-000-payout-headmistr...
"Why romanticize tolerance? Intolerance can be a terrible thing, but so can blind, silly obedience to liberal ideology."
Um, because Intolerance is evil, and therefore Tolerance is it's antithesis.
And your comment doesn't track, as Tolerance has nothing to do with 'blind obedience to liberal ideology'.
Tolerance is like Mercy.
It's a Virtue that people embrace because we wish it to be extended to us in return, and each instance is a deliberate, conscious act.
@corazon:
You stated: "Didn't hear the call, not familiar with the issue - but my first instinct is that the caller is full of crap."
My response: I'm not the least bit interested in your "first instinct", based on a call you didn't even hear.
You stated: "hgov - YOU should research it and post a link, before you haul off against Thom."
My response: You don't even know what YOU'RE writing about, much less what I was writing about. The main point in my comment is "Thom ignored the question..." - sort of like you ignoring the entire point of the post, but more out of ignorance than intelligent analysis.
You stated: "Where is your BS detector ? Why so credulous ?"
My response: Right now, my BS detector is going off the dial when pointed at your ridiculous post. Me, credulous? Get out the mirror, pot calling kettle black.
@Zenzoe:
You state:
I seem to remember an attempt of this sort tried in Antelope, Oregan in the 1980's, where a Hindu sect of some sort gained enough seats on the city council to start making demands. However, this may be an urban legend. I don't claim it as a fact.
My response: Not an urban legend at all. A very interesting story about an incredibly intelligent man, the Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. For more, this WikiPedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osho_%28Bhagwan_Shree_Rajneesh%29
@corozon:
You state: ZZ - my impatience is directed at the OP. Apparently just another hit and run Islamaphobe slob - just dropping by to take a cheap shot at Thom.
My response: A simple search of my user name would have been easy enough for you to execute before making even more of a fool of yourself. I've hardly been "hit and run".
For you to call me an Islamaphobe only categorizes you as a "humanophobe" - hating all in the human race: Subcategory: Idiot.
You state: That you rise to abstract defense of his baseless twaddle is of no interest to me.
My response: Zenzoe has more intelligence condensed in the first sentence of his post than you have in your entire collection of posts. I've noticed that Zenzoe has resisted the temptation to resort to the kind of ad hominem attacks you enjoy in your attacks. How can you contain your embarrassment as you go about your daily existence as a hate monger?
@corozon:
You state: ZZ - just post a link to back up the garbage in the OP.
thanks.
My response: Although I see that Zenzoe has in fact posted an interesting link highlighting an instance of when religious fervor can take over a secular institution, it was not necessary to back up that which you refer to as "the garbage in the OP".
The "garbage" is actually the scrambled jumble of nerves inside your skull which you more than likely think of as your "brain". Newsflash: Having a brain does not mean having a mind.
The main point in my comment is "Thom ignored the question..." This point does not need a link, but you might have been able to make an argument of some kind if: A) You had heard the call, and B) You had read my post with some sort of intelligent analysis.
UPDATE: Not that this will matter to Thom Hartmann, but for those of you who have replied to my original post, I wrote in haste in my response to Thom's disregard of the caller's comment. Thom Hartmann has more on his mind at any given minute than I do in any given month.
Regardless of my petty peeves, I find watching Thom's show on FreeSpeech TV is still worth the time. Kudos to all of his defenders here - even the nonsensical corozon.
Thom,related one problem to another for the caller.The "Bait & Switch" was done by saying Thom ignore the caller question.Rights are rights,their isn`t no apples & oranges.The caller can fight for his rights the same as Blacks. Hopefully the caller learn something and you.
The "garbage" is actually the scrambled jumble of nerves inside your skull which you more than likely think of as your "brain". Newsflash: Having a brain does not mean having a mind.
Hilarious. I think hgovernick pretty much covered everything in his response to corazon.
By the way, one little correction for him: I am of the female half of the population. But thanks for the compliment (regarding my feedback, not for assuming I am male!).
As for the notions of tolerance and intolerance, I'm sorry some people don't grok the downside of tolerance. It's as if they've got some squishy, feel-good space in their heads where they keep certain liberal notions safe from scrutiny. Heck, I'm a liberal. I know how this works: You just want to love everybody and have nothing but positive, open-minded thoughts, especially about things the right-wingers are making noise about. The problem with this is that sometimes conservatives have a point, and to be blind to this is a weakness, in my opinion. What comes to mind, for example, is how some progressives will wax ecstatic over voodoo and totally ignore that animals are being sacrificed during these supernatural, poppycock practices. These relativistic habits of mind bore me to death. Wrong is wrong.
Wrong is wrong,and labels is labels and most are wrong.
I would not want my support of the original blog post to imply that I in any way endorse the persecution of Muslims, or any other group. Most Muslims are ethical, sane people. I simply wish not to be blind, where religion makes for anti-democratic, or authoritarian movements taking hold or holding sway in secular communities.
Individuals(not religion) create problems. What is racism? Accusing a whole race for individual problems.Where would you be when people say "I`m God"? You would say "You`re Crazy",right? You need to do same to group.(and take them to court)
Individuals(not religion) create problems.
Some religions are authoritarian at the core. Any religion that functions within a hierarchy based on male dominance, for example, is authoritarian by definition, and most are. The individuals within a religion, if they subscribe to a dogma based on the notion of the supremacy of men over women, then children, then animals, and the earth, will tend to have problems, perpetuate problems, and create more problems in this world. I do not wish to persecute these groups, however; I simply want to be aware of the possibilities and be sure to support the separation of church, synagogue, or mosque, that is, support and maintain a secular society.
Zen,do we agree their is some civilize religions and uncivilize ones? And i think we agree mankind have come a long way and is still learning?Do you think people who still believe the world is flat, can pass on that thinking in a civilize system? We have laws about sanity,but no laws about "sanity" of religoins.Mankind having advance that far yet.