Vietnam and Afghanistan

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As a Vietnam Vet, I remember how Generals like Westmoreland lied to justify an unnecessary war -- it's happening again in Afghanistan!

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proud.liberal
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Yeah, because trying to stop the Genocide of the Khmer Rouge and Chinese expansionism was completely unjustified. :eyeroll:

You do realize that it was Nixon and Nixon alone who prevented a peaceful resolution of vietnam in 1968, right?

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KevinConner
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Like Nixon,like Bush letting 9/11 happen.We pull the plug on Vietnam,we have to pull the plug on these "Bogeyman-Wars". We have a ruling class in the world that makes evil looks good.

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tayl44
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

tay - afghanistan isn't a boogey-man war. There's an actual legitimate reason to be there:

We're there for the same reason as NATO - to stabilize the Pakistan Afghanistan border and secure the trans-asian pipeline. India was already placing troops at the Pakistan/India border, threatening to cross over if Pakistan couldn't protect the pipeline.

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KevinConner
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Vietnam, i learn to stop drinking the cool aid.Terrorism is the bogeyman to destroy three countries to control their wealth.Some people never learn! Thank God,most of us do,otherwise we wouldn`t be here!

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tayl44
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Kennedy got is into Vietnam

Obama got us into Afghanistan

Who will get us out of there?

public pressure

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brother
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Quote tayl44:

Vietnam, i learn to stop drinking the cool aid.Terrorism is the bogeyman to destroy three countries to control their wealth.Some people never learn! Thank God,most of us do,otherwise we wouldn`t be here!

The pipeline has been repeatedly attacked since the treaty was first established in the 90s. It's an actual threat. What part of that is hard for you to grasp?

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KevinConner
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Lovely. It would make more sense to force the participant nations in the pipeline to figure out its security than to think that we can solve this problem with troops or even with diplomats. Getting our petro-military empire off the bad juice and reduced to a sane level means getting out of wars of dubious value, much less legitimacy. This is not and never has been the "good war" compared to Iraq. It was just the less bad or needless one. Doing something about Al Qaeda made sense. War was not the best choice.

How India and Pakistan resolve their problems could use some UN help. Getting Pakistan to be a nation with a military rather than the reverse would be useful. But the best approach is to re-introduce the long-term interested players to their regional roles. This means China and Iran. Giving Iran signals that a reasonable government will get real security and status as a regional power helps remove the evil empire the radicals rely upon.

What I do concede in Afghanistan policy is the regional complexity. We have to stop the military approach and the drones. Going diplomatic is the best next step. There is no way to "get" the dream government we have pursued. We have to let Afghanis settle their scores while removing the future threats so some of our people can live. Bloodbath now or later, but possibly less if we demonstrate the will to leave.

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DRC
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

KevinConner,what i have grasp, is some people never learn.I wish that pipeline was in you back yard,"maybe" you my learn! But even then,some people never learn.Would you believe,some people still believe the world is flat.Would you be one?

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tayl44
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

tayl44, what you may not know is that my dad is an Archaeologist. I consider him to be the best archaeologist on the western slope of colorado. He works through the BLM to survey for possible sites. The majority of the people who require surveys are OIL COMPANIES.

The process is as follows: they are required by law to hire my dad's company through the BLM. He then produces reports regarding his finds, and the oil companies have to adjust where they build their wells and pipelines accordingly (many times, they cannot build the wellpad. heheheh).

So, your statement about oil pipelines being in my back yard -- well, that's actually an incredibly uninformed thing to say, as there are well pads and pipes all over Colorado.

The key difference between the wellpads and pipes in Colorado and the trans-asian pipeline in the Middle East is here, in colorado WE DON'T HAVE UNCONTROLLED PSYCHOPATHS BOMBING THE WELLPADS AND PIPES BECAUSE THEY WANT TO COMMIT ECONOMIC TERRORISM ON ADJACENT COUNTRIES FOR THEIR RELIGIOUS BIGOTRY!!!!!!!!

You are under the incredibly ridiculous assumption that Afghanistan is not a war of aggression - while you stick your head in the sand refusing to read about the massive amount of religious upheval and economic terrorism amounting to TRILLIONS of dollars in damage that's being carried out by the Taliban as retribution for the religious hatred of surrounding areas.

Pakistan and India have actually TRIED to solve the issues themselves, and wound up on the brink of war (several times). As much as I HATE Pollution-ville (known as the country of India), the last thing we need is Pakistan engaging in a religious war with India over the security of a pipeline. Those two countries barely need an excuse to engage in a war with each other. You seem to forget that Pakistan threatened to invade India during the 90s when India was carrying out its ethnic cleansing on muslims, and that India marched its troops to the border with Pakistan (threatening to cross Pakistan and invade Afghanistan) before we committed our own forces to the Afghan region.

Quite frankly, if the US and NATO allies can't secure this pipeline and bring down the threat of the Taliban in that region, we might as well just start digging mass grave trenches before we pull out, because that's exactly what's going to be needed after the worst comes to bear.

Another problem I have with people like you and their comments on the war in Afghanistan, is you keep saying stuff like "we're fighting against afghanistan" or "we're fighting a war of invasion against afghanistan".

The win conditions have NOTHING to do with fighting against or invading afghanistan. The win conditions are entirely centered around dismantling taliban control over the pipeline region. A region which borders Pakistan. That's why the Taliban haven't "left" that area. That's why we're having problems. This is not comparable to Russia or Alexander invading Afghanistan. This has nothing to do with winning the hearts and minds of the Afghan people so they welcome us with open arms. This has to do with trillions of dollars devoted to assisting the development of the southeastern asian countries.

If all of these pundits, talk show hosts, and reporters spent less than 1 quarter the time of reading US State Department, NATO, UN, Indian Embassy, Chinese Embassy, Pakistan Embassy press releases, as they do shooting off their mouths, they'd know that. Not only would THEY know that, but you and everyone ELSE would know that.

Our goals have been slightly expanded - such as burning the Poppy Fields, and trying to convert the farmers back into "honest crops" - but that's a halo effect necessary to break Taliban control over the pipeline region. It's a war of atrition trying to get them to move off the damned pipeline.

I promise you if the Taliban moved 1-200 miles west of where they are right now - by early tomorrow morning, the war would instantly be over.

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KevinConner
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

KevinConner,you jump from cold war cool aid to terrorism cool aid.I said even if you had a pipeline(lucky guess) you still be of same mind,1 guess was luck, the other i knew from experience.All wars are over power.You have learn nothing from Vietnam.Somebody come to your backyard and want control of it,i guess you would say go ahead and take it,no problem just give me 2 cent.With a deal like that you and your father will be ready to go to war! Guess what the world will hear what you & your father is fighting for "religious terrorism"(the Bogeyman) K.C. leave the cool aid alone you would be much wiser.

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tayl44
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

1. It's called Kool-Aid

2. You are referring to my post regarding the atrocities committed by the kmir rougue:

http://www.mekong.net/cambodia/toll.htm

Your claim that I'm drinking "communist kool-aid" for claiming that we were wrong for trying to stop the khmir rouge is the most disgusting vile contemptuous thing I've ever seen on this board.

Vietnam was begun by the chinese invasions of the Second Indo-china war. It was not begun by a democratic process chosen by the people.

Vietnam WOULD have been over in 1968 if Nixon hadn't have committed treason by interrupting the peace process, China has flat out admitted that they would've stopped the North Vietnamese.

3. You're an uneducated fool to believe that the Taliban hasn't been attacking the trans-asian pipeline, and even worse to claim that our presence was not requested in Afghanistan or Pakistan.

Your level of ignorance and denial on these issues absolutely 100% disgusts me, especially since you're trying to pretend that terrorist attacks and genocides didn't happen and do not need to be stopped.

Denying the genocides that happened in Vietnam by the Chinese lead communists is literally as bad as claiming the Holocaust of the 1930s/40s never happened. It is vile and sick for you to make those statements and insinuations.

Let me just make something expressly clear here since you don't seem to get it:

If we had lost World War 2, and I talked about the genocide, and you replied to me saying I was drinking the "anti-nazi kool-aid" you would've had your rear end kicked off this board in less than a second.

Instead, there's a level of hypocrisy and racism in the anti-war liberal mentality that seems to think it's ok to accuse someone of drinking the "anti-communist kool-aid" whenever that person brings up the kmhir rouge.

Genocide is genocide, and I find it an offensive vulgarity that anyone is allowed to defend the genocide committed by the communist regeime in Vietnam. For the record - during the period between 1930s and 1980s the communist countries - Stalin's Russia, Pol Pot's Vietnam, Chairman Mao, murdered more than 40 MILLION PEOPLE. Stalin himself wiped more than 24 million people off the face of his earth. That's 7 times as many jews who died in WW2 concentration camps.

That is why I find you to be a vulgar, disgusting human being. You defend the worst GENOCIDE seen on the face of this planet in order to support communism by saying that anyone who disagrees with you about communism is "drinking anti-communism kool-aid". And let me repeat this 1 more time: if you had said the same thing about the Nazis you would've been instantly kicked off this board.

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KevinConner
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

You have "lost" your mind to the "COOL AID"! Seek Help!

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tayl44
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

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