The possible politcal spectrum of third party candidates

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I am taking another shot at Thom's lack of scope on third party candidates. I never here from Thom the possibility of a third party candidacy which might incorprate a poltically unorthodox constiuency of voters. Perot being probably the best historical example. Maybe there is no one person waiting in the wings, but why not at least mention the concept sometime.

Is it completely unthikable to have a Sanders/Paul ticket or Nader/Paul ticket. Also might it not be possible for such two somes to come up with a presidential platform that would moderate thier differences in a way that could allow the support of voters from both sides of such tickets.

Ten to Twenty years ago there seemed to be some agreement between progressive and libertarian populist. Buchannan seemed to have had quite a following of those who opposed free trade, and an american first economic tilt. I guess parts of that are still around in the tea people, but their anti-government rhetoric makes it difficult for most of us progressives to imagine we might have the same ends in mind. I find it really hard to believe the mega corporation juggernaut can be stopped with market solutions alone, but I would support a discussion on how the seemingly opposite approaches might be merged towards a strategy that could result in commonly agreed upon end.

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Maybe it is time to resurrect this thread with the announcement that Nader and Paul are considering joining forces in some manner. The part about his I find most interesting is how the two might develop a platform of mutual concerns, assumibly focused on american jobs and limiting the power of wall street, which could reduce the import of which of the wo is the actual presidential candidate.,

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My fantasy is to see a third party called "The Populist Party", dedicated to the sole issue of defeating Corporatism and balancing wealth inequality. The platform would make no mention of issues that are designed to polarize the population. No position on abortion, guns, separation of church/state, even foreign policy. this party would draw from Progressives, Libertarians, and quite a number of Conservatives. Let the Congress fight it out over the tough stuff. Every issue would be evaluated solely on its impact on the middle and lower class. It probably wouldn't last very long, but perhaps some work could be done to draw the lines where they properly belong.

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Sign me up.

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Quote Art:

My fantasy is to see a third party called "The Populist Party", dedicated to the sole issue of defeating Corporatism and balancing wealth inequality.

you won't see ron paul on that ticket.

while paul detests government empire, he has no problem with corporate empire. also, since when has any libertarian given a shipoopee whether you have "wealth equality" or not?

loses my vote right out of the gate, along with his positions on half of the other stuff you mentioned.

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If you want to change the duopoly, you have to change the electoral system as well and we should. Winner take all states of very unequal populations are bad enough. With the electoral college, the chance of any minority party being more than a nuisance or worse is minimal.

If you want to expand ideas or create a movement around something that galvanizes the public, don't bother with party politics at all.

I agree on defining Wall St. Corporate and Imperial War Machine as the enemies of democracy and the financial drain on the American taxpayer. The only third party I could see would be the Progressive Dems and a rebellion on the Right against the Empire by small government, fiscal conservatives representing an authentic rural perspective. Unfortunately, this perspective has treated urban America as the enemy. It is time to take on power instead of targeting victims.

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DRC- If you could expalin what it is about the electoral college makes a third party candidacy difficult?

Also I think it should be pointed out that a third party candidacy, especially one that crosses ideological lines, could make a significant effect on the electoral environment without necessarily winning the election

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As i examined my fantasy more closely, it began to resemble what we have heard from the no-labels party people, which is probably a Corporatist Party in disguise. Ron Paul cited this article in the American Free Press about the people who are actually behind the no-label party. It really tells you all you need to know. So, perhaps my "Populist Party" might be an honest alternative to the no-labels people. Not surprisingly, Thomas Friedman likes the no-labels Party. He thinks it's a Tea Party with real solutions. He wants to make America great again by empowering the Corporations to compete more effectively. I say, "Make the American middle class great, and America will be great. The Corporate sector can take care of itself".

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More often than not the middle class becomes too easily sated, self indulgent, and averse to risk what they have obtained,,,,willing to indulge corporate excesses and the uber rich as long as they can remain solidly "middle class".

Eliminate the poor while satisfying the working class and the US might have a chance towards democracy. Not going to happen within the framework of the broken two party system. Glad I won't be around while the empire crumbles....

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Since DRC apparently does not feel the need to explain his claim that the electoral college somehow precludes third party challenges, I will. It has nothing to do with it The only real problem with the electoral college is that the winner of the popular vote may not win the electoral vote and that close votes in particular states can determine the presidency. These are flaws that can effect any presidential race regardless of the amount of candidates

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saying a democrat lost because the greens received votes is completely erroneous....

and it goes against the concept of democracy - just as the greens get blamed for the loss of the presidency of al gore - regardless of how bad a campaign gore ran - or that he couldn't even win his own state - and took a rightwing stance on protecting the everglades when his family money was tied up in NOT protecting the everglades -

those problems are never discussed - and they distort history into it's the liberals fault!

I think that goes to show just how truly not liberal those on the professional left are when they blame the liberals for losing when their candidates turn out to be either corrupt or overtly conservative.

Thom used to hammer on the fact that the LEFT needs to push the STORY - in that way the left isn't continuing to simpy react to the conservative agenda -

let's admit it - the conservatives are great at the STORY - and frankly Thom plays into that by having many more conservative guests on pushing the STORY and not many liberals - and basically no really far to the left liberals -

so we lose the STORY and end up reacting to the conservative myths......

and blaming greens and other lefty progressive parties for making the democrats lose is the CIRCULAR FIRING SQUAD.....

blame the greens but don't blame the democrats for their obvious corporatist, monopoly supporting, chinese favoring trade policies and trickle down on steriods economic pandering!

Will the real Thom please stand up - there seems to have been a body snatching on the trip from Portland to DC.....

AND how do you push MOVEMENTS when the left is afraid to take a stand against corrupt democratic policies.................

Where are the leaders on the left who stand for priciple regardless of party affiliation?

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Thom keeps saying that we can't have a third party and yet has a regular guest on Friday who is a third party senator. Go figure.

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Quote norske:

More often than not the middle class becomes too easily sated, self indulgent, and averse to risk what they have obtained,,,,willing to indulge corporate excesses and the uber rich as long as they can remain solidly "middle class".

Eliminate the poor while satisfying the working class and the US might have a chance towards democracy. Not going to happen within the framework of the broken two party system. Glad I won't be around while the empire crumbles....

I wish I could say the same, Norske. The empire is already crumbling....it just takes a long time for a dying elephant to hit the ground. The thud will reverberate around the world. In some places it will be acknowledged with fireworks...in others with a wailing and gnashing of teeth.

A merging of economic/resource/environmental collapse probably won't be pleasant. Our application of capitalism requiring continual growth has reached the end of its rope. The planet itself can't sustain it.

Arithmetic, Population and Engergy, Univ. of Colo. lecture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY&feature=channel

Unless a Third Party acknolwedges the underlying structural problems that most Americans prefer to ignore, we're in for deep doo doo.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

polycarp2
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In that sense, Monk, we are already the Third Party. We might as well get busy organizing the future instead of thinking that putting another spear in the elephant will help us when the beast falls. If we have done what we need to do to prepare, shoot the Pachyderm. Between the eyes. But the important thing to be doing now is preparing for after the crash. We can also try to cushion it, but I would pay more attention to the former and use the latter as part of the conversion process.

Getting some identity into the Future is Now movement so it is not just screaming about Entropy and Apocalypse or continuing in a narcotic state is how to deal with our own feelings of impotence and despair.

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As Thom and many others point out, the system is currently aligned in such a way to make a third party candidate winning really a tough if not impossible task, especially with the winner take all electoral college. To get a left of center candidate to win, you'd have to get at least 34% of the vote of the most populous states to win, which would be a pretty challenging task in the age of Citizen's United.

And if you want someone like Sanders to run, there is an added variable that makes such an independent challenge that much more difficult and risky. Though we'd all like Senator Sanders to run and possibly win, the last thing we'd want to have happen is that his doing so might lead to him losing his Senate seat in the process. Since he's up for reelection in the Senate in 2012 as well, if he's running an independent campaign that jeopardizes Obama winning, you know that the DSCC and the DNC would be putting tons of money in the Vermont race behind a Democratic candidate to try and divert Sanders' attention from running a successful presidential campaign. And you might wind up with a Republican in that case winning the state if Sanders and the Dem split the progressive vote to evenly.

I know that Sanders likes his independence from the Democratic Party to be his own man, but I wonder if there's a way he can do that and still declare himself as a Democratic candidate both for his Senate seat and as a primary challenger to Obama for president. I think it would be pretty much impossible for the DNC or the DSCC to win a primary against Sanders in Vermont for his Senate seat, and if Sanders really made a "tea party" style of "takeover" of the Democratic Party his campaign rallying cry to other progressives that have left to the Greens and other parties recently, perhaps he could get a big turnout in the Democratic primaries of newer voters to go for him and have a shot at beating Obama.

And as others have said, have a campaign primarily going after corporatist control over our government, and less focused on divisive social issues that really don't impact the center of power control over our government. That way if he were to win, he'd have a bit more freedom to select an independent as his running mate to grab independents fed up with corporate control of our government too. Emphasize public campaign financing, instant runoff voting to help attract third party votes, tariffs, rolling back Reagan tax cuts, etc.

Some have suggested Paul as a "balancing" part of the ticket. Perhaps another might be Jesse Ventura, who really has been vocal on many "populist" issues lately such as fighting torture, and lately against the TSA screening processes.

Though perhaps someone like Russ Feingold is a bit more free now to speak that much more in a populist mode being out of the Senate now, like he has been in recent interviews, and might be a good running mate too, though unless he finds ways to reach the moderates in the middle (which I still think is possible if done right with emphasis on popular populist issues and finding ways through the Citizen's United propaganda efforts), he might grab less of the middle that's needed to be paired with someone like Bernie.

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"I wish I could say the same, Norske. The empire is already crumbling...." poly

Yea, I caught that several hours after I posted it. What has been going on is unlike anything I have ever seen. The exaggerated push back, lies, false equivalencies....getiing very nasty.

Trying to convince my children to come with us to Norway.....unfortunately they still believe that things can get better. At least they have options and will always be welcome....my friends won't be so lucky.

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I think we need to work down ticket and in constituency development rather than political brand sales. I would avoid bashing those who disappoint us most if it serves those who disgust us most. I try not to allow disappointment to be confused for disgust even if we feel more strongly when let down by friends than bashed by enemies. Expectations need to be put aside to retain accurate measures of lesser and greater evils.

Sure, politics has to become emotional for motivation. We don't move on ideas unless they "matter." I want a lot more passion and a lot less acceptance of pathology. The Right did not gain power by making Presidential Politics the point of the game. They started with school boards. And even if it is not an exact comparison, given the money and ease with which power coordinates its bases, but we need to have a base other than a TV audience or internet community.

I think there are a lot of House races and even some Senate seats that could be influenced, and that helps the incremental right now. But local races and state reps are often less tied to the national pathology and have smaller budgets--or even the old meet and greet election culture. If we put aside our disappointment and alienation to do something positive, we might even become likable across some differences with our neighbors. Or, mirable dictu, we might make sense to them once they see we are not Socialists out to get rid of God and open the doors to free sex.

Of course, if you are looking for wild sex, the real porno freaks are the Religious Right. The secrecy makes it all that more intense. I hear.

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Poly, sometimes with the chat here it's like some of us are trying to tell people there is a tornado on the horizon headed for us while others are saying "don't bother us, we're trying to plan for the next tornado." :)

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Quote norske:

"I wish I could say the same, Norske. The empire is already crumbling...." poly

Yea, I caught that several hours after I posted it. What has been going on is unlike anything I have ever seen. The exaggerated push back, lies, false equivalencies....getiing very nasty.

Trying to convince my children to come with us to Norway.....unfortunately they still believe that things can get better. At least they have options and will always be welcome....my friends won't be so lucky.

And it's just business as usual in Washington. One impending crises building atop another...and the way to deal with it seems to be to spout the same old garbage...intensified.

My greatest concern is a system in its death throes may strike out in fury and bring much of the world with it. A resource collapse may bring with it a military effort to maintain current U.S. lifestyles, cultural values and systems intact for an additional 10-12 years after a resource/energy collapse. Unless structures/cultural values are changed, that will probably occur within 15 years.

Resource collapse is in the cards. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY&feature=channel

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored" - Huxley.

Where are statesmen when you need them? Buried by the media.

"People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage." - John Galbraith

That applies to national populations well as individuals.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease".

.

polycarp2
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Quote mtdon:

saying a democrat lost because the greens received votes is completely erroneous....

and it goes against the concept of democracy - just as the greens get blamed for the loss of the presidency of al gore - regardless of how bad a campaign gore ran - or that he couldn't even win his own state - and took a rightwing stance on protecting the everglades when his family money was tied up in NOT protecting the everglades -

those problems are never discussed - and they distort history into it's the liberals fault!

I think that goes to show just how truly not liberal those on the professional left are when they blame the liberals for losing when their candidates turn out to be either corrupt or overtly conservative.

Thom used to hammer on the fact that the LEFT needs to push the STORY - in that way the left isn't continuing to simpy react to the conservative agenda -

let's admit it - the conservatives are great at the STORY - and frankly Thom plays into that by having many more conservative guests on pushing the STORY and not many liberals - and basically no really far to the left liberals -

so we lose the STORY and end up reacting to the conservative myths......

and blaming greens and other lefty progressive parties for making the democrats lose is the CIRCULAR FIRING SQUAD.....

blame the greens but don't blame the democrats for their obvious corporatist, monopoly supporting, chinese favoring trade policies and trickle down on steriods economic pandering!

Will the real Thom please stand up - there seems to have been a body snatching on the trip from Portland to DC.....

AND how do you push MOVEMENTS when the left is afraid to take a stand against corrupt democratic policies.................

Where are the leaders on the left who stand for priciple regardless of party affiliation?

I was just thinking some of these same things. Democrats want us to stop firing at them in what they call a circular firing squad (which they apparently don't mind taking advantage of to fire at us),

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Quote DRC:

In that sense, Monk, we are already the Third Party. We might as well get busy organizing the future instead of thinking that putting another spear in the elephant will help us when the beast falls. If we have done what we need to do to prepare, shoot the Pachyderm. Between the eyes. But the important thing to be doing now is preparing for after the crash. We can also try to cushion it, but I would pay more attention to the former and use the latter as part of the conversion process.

Getting some identity into the Future is Now movement so it is not just screaming about Entropy and Apocalypse or continuing in a narcotic state is how to deal with our own feelings of impotence and despair.

Wow, DRC, I actuallly find myself agreeing with you.

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"My greatest concern is a system in its death throes may strike out in fury and bring much of the world with it." poly

My concern as well, not good for the empire for there to be workable, people oriented options like Norway...or Bolivia

"A resource collapse may bring with it a military effort to maintain current U.S. lifestyles, cultural values and systems intact for an additional 10-12 years after a resource/energy collapse." poly

Exactly. The US is like a giant Ponzi scheme living beyond its means on the backs of the poor and the working class while stealing the resources of weaker nations...all Ponzi schemes fail...eventually.

"Unless structures/cultural values are changed, that will probably occur within 15 years." poly

That sounds about right, but I wouldn't bet against it occurring earlier.

Houses are smaller in Scandinavia but I'm thinking of opening a Brew Pub once I get settled. The two major beer producers are much like Bud and Miller in the states and Norwegians are getting excited about Micro Brews. I concentrate on Belgian Abbey and Trappist styles, having a real live monk around would lend a certain credibility to the place. You're welcome to come and visit as long as you desire. Funny thing is, as much as I enjoy brewing beer, not that much of a drinker of it.

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Norske, before you go, come on down to Corvallis and meet the brewers who can hip you on recipes and styles. Corvallis Brewing Supply is great, and so is our local Block 15. Part of the art is creating beers for sipping instead of drinking in quantity. If you like the idea of a "cognac" at 11% alcohol, that might change your perspective on what "beer' can be.

You are right about the business opportunity, and your NW cred will help too. Oregon has a hot brand image in Europe, for some reason, and the NW in general is thought of as not really part of the problem. They do not have to know the truth.

Copenhagen was breaking into the microbrewery market, although their tap industrial is much better than Bud. I think a brewer who loves cooking up new things could find a loyal public to support the art; and if you prefer the brewing to the drinking, you have a great chance of succeeding in a business that will consume those who love the drinking too much.

Anyway, it not your sanity I yearn for, it is the option. I would go if family and friends were there in a heartbeat. Keep in touch.

As to the circular firing squad problem, while we can all find reasons to slap our foreheads over what they get wrong, our Liberal friends in the Democratic Party are not the big problem. If they had the game to play that we wish we had, they would be happier. My point about preparing for the future is that it is part of dealing with the present. You don't just go on a bridge burning rage. You do have an exit plan; but you prefer reform.

The best thing about the Book of Jonah comes after the fish story. After going through all the parts of the fish story to show how Jonah hated the idea of going to preach to the hated Ninevah, he had to go. And damn if they did not hear his message and repent!

So he gets pissed and goes out to sit in the sun and curse God. Who grows a plant to shade him. Which is not welcome. Because he wanted those damned hated enemies to get the full wrath of God, and God made him save them. He is really pissed.

The story ends with a moral point about living by the grace of God, but what I love is how much Jonah hates saving his enemies.

I don't give up on a lot of folks who are holding onto stuff I know to be flimsy. I am not ready to abandon Americans while I watch the Corporate Edition go down in flames. I think we can do more than curse the darkness and expect the wasteland.

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I've been up there. Currently fermenting a big Belgian at 13% and a Guiness clone (SWMBO loves them) at 8%. Toured Belgium and did the Abbey/Trappest beer thing. My son and his family live there. A cool book on brewing Belgian is (Brew Like A Monk). Cool web site as well.

Once you have good beer, especially good home brew, almost impossible to drink most commercial stuff.

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Have not had a factory brew in a long time. Beervana is where I live, and having the best selection of quality varieties in the world makes drinking less no problem. Move up in quality and down in volume. It works as I get older.

Corvallis Brewing Supply is the best home brewer resource and supply store I have ever seen. If you want to converse with serious brewers, both home and pro, it is the place.

This is another place where corporate has demonstrated its suckiness. My report card on corporate is C for product. At best. There is nothing great on the list, but lots of average crap, tasteless tomatoes and bread, and the awful beer. Indigenous and artisanal is a formula, and brewpubs are part of the new economy in that sense.

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I began small after helping a friend with his brewing and like everything I end up doing I had to go out and get every book on the subject, then visit as many brew pubs, as many LHBS, and as many breweries, as many countries, etc. Eventually growing the grain, hops, doing my own crush, and making most of the beer gear. Did the same thing with wine.

Just a fun hobby that provided the intellectual stimulation I was missing once work became formulaic. Fortunately my wife REALLY likes beer and we give a lot away to friends and relatives. We auction off most and give proceeds to local homeless groups. The last Belgian brought in $9.00 a 22oz bottle.

Norway has a dearth of breweries, should be fun.

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Interestingly, a friend of mine made some beer from 45,000,000 year old yeast. I haven't had to purchase yeast in a long time....but it was cool to get a hold of 45,000,000 year old yeast.

Poly professor brews beer with 45-million-year-old yeastPoly professor brews with microorganisms he found in fossilized amber By Jayson Mellom | jmellom@thetribunenews.com | purchase prints

Raul Cano, at Gennaro’s restaurant in San Luis Obispo, extracted 45-million-year-old yeast from amber and made beer from it.

By Nick Wilson | nwilson@thetribunenews.com

A Cal Poly professor’s mission to turn a 45-million-year-old yeast into an ingredient for a beer has proven successful — and now he hopes to grow his operation locally.

Raul Cano, a Cal Poly biology professor, discovered the yeast in amber that came from Myanmar, which was previously known as Burma, while conducting research in the 1990s.

More photos: Click thumbnails to enlarge

Cano gained international recognition at the time for his discovery that microorganisms could be brought back to life by extracting them from amber found in Myanmar, North America and Central America.

The microorganisms are able to lay dormant for long periods of time without air or food.

Through brewing experiments with collaborators, Cano has been able to take strains of yeast from the ancient amber and grow them. And he was interested in finding out how it could be used in food or drinks.

“Beer was the obvious product from an organism such as yeast,” Cano said. “It was either that or bread. But beer seemed more adventurous.”

Fossil Fuels Brewing Co., the beer company that he’s formed with partners Chip Lambert, Joe Kelley and Scott Bonzell, now produces beer for sale primarily in Northern California bars and pubs.

Cano also has made the beer available for sale at Gennaro’s Grill and Garden in San Luis Obispo — where he’s a partner.

Fossil Fuels Brewing Co. has used Cano’s initial extraction of yeast to grow a much larger batch that fills a warehouse in Northern California used in the beer-making process.

“Our main beer is a wheat beer, and we also have a pale ale, but we’re really working on others, including an amber ale and an Oktoberfest,” Cano said.

Of those beers popular in the mainstream market, Cano compares the taste most closely to that of Blue Moon.

Despite initial skepticism from some about the taste the beer would produce, Cano says the flavor turned out surprisingly good and unique.

Critics have described the taste as one with lots of spice, resembling cloves, along with tinges of ginger and pineapple.

One thing that makes the yeast different is its genetic makeup — which allows the beer to finish with a desirable clear color instead of a cloudy resolution because of how the prehistoric yeast strain ferments sugars, Cano said.

Cano wouldn’t reveal information about annual sales, but he said the 2-year-old company currently produces about 20 barrels a month — a very small amount, but he has high hopes.

He says the biggest challenges to growing the company include continued development of quality styles of beers, forming a skilled management team and, most importantly, financing — including proper marketing and promotion.

The brewing is done at Kelley Brothers Brewing Co. in the Central Valley town of Manteca.

“I’d love to get some investors interested in expanding the company,” Cano said. “I’m also interested in brewing it locally in San Luis Obispo

Read more: http://www.sanluisobispo.com/2011/01/18/1447061/poly-professor-brews-beer-with.html#ixzz1CAMTCUdy

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Currently Chatting

Can Democrats Set Out a New Path?

Democrats must embrace a pro-government platform, not run away from it.

Those were the sentiments of Senator Chuck Schumer today, in a speech given at the National Press Club. Talking about the reasons for Democrats’ losses on Election Day, Schumer said that those losses were proof that the American people and middle-class want a government that will work more effectively for them.

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