Thom and the Lesser of 2 Evils

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Go ahead and support Obama all you want Thom - I"m not buying it - and all those 1st time voters who voted in 2008 - they won't come back in 2012 is my guess......

I'm with Nader on this - and by the way - NADER WAS RIGHT in 2008 when he said Obama will simply continue w/ the Bush/corporate policies that landed us in this trouble in the the 1st place..... and when Nader NOW says "I have no use for Obama"

GO ahead and supprot the lesser of 2 evils - But I'm done with Obama and the dem's at this point - call me naive, call me selfish, call me an f@%*ing retard -I don't care.....

Obama shows plenty of courage when it goes against the progressives - THAT shows his true intentions - and if he's simply going to continue the repub policies well then make the repub's own them.,.....

adn the Supreme Court Justives Obama named? 1 was nominated to the federal bench by BUSH SENIOR and the other was a paid shill for Goldman SACHS! LIBERALS? GIVE ME A BREAK!

AND the progressives want:

1. public option

2. end the wars

3. tax the rich

AND the majority of Americans want those things -

while obama wants 1. destroy Social Security 2. endless governemental powers 3. endless war 4. corporatism

Thom is always saying "we have to force obama to do the right thing' but then when you apply pressure to obama he threatens and insults the progressives- and then even Thom says we should toe the line!

The definition of Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result......

Thom thinks that Obama will do the right thing - even though over and over and over Obama sticks it to the traditional dem's every time - there is no FORCING this guy

Our choices in 2012 are 1. vote obama

2. vote for the repub

3. opt out or vote for the progressive/green party member

I choose #3 - and you know what - many people feel the same way -

AND Thom saying the repub's won because the middle voter went to the repub's is flat out WRONG!

the dem's lost because the left DIDN'T TURN OUT and Obama has neutered the LEFT into not protesting the wars,environmental degredation etc etc etc - so actually getting a repub in power would empower the LEFT to stand up once again instead of rollingover for the same policies the Left would protest if there was a repub in power.

2008 voters -- 132 mil

2010 - 90 mil voters

Sure people don't pay attention - BUT WHY BOTHER when you get the same old same old no MATTER who is in charge..... The government has been CAPTURED and doing the same thing -voting democrat - is the definition of insanity..... If the dem's can lose by less than the GREEN PARTY receives and then hammer the Greens and threaten them it shows that DEMOCRATS are unable to change......

COGNITIVE DISSONANACE is the word of the YEAR for THOM -

I'll follow Nader in that there's no point voting for Obama and getting what you DON'T WANT!

In the end - Thom doesn't have a line in the sand and inherently unable to stand his ground.......

follow POLICIES and not CULT OF PERSONALITY

Thom and the other Professional Left can equivocate all they want - the voters won't bother to show up in 2012 when Obama acts as he does! Tough times call for tough choices - but THOM is UNABLE to make them....

I know I won't bother supporting those that don't support the poor and middle class!

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mtdon
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Comments

In two years Obama will say there's nothing he can do to reverse the Bush taxcuts because of the Republican House. Then the 700BN$ hole blown in the budget as a result of the Bush /Obama Taxcuts will be used to implement the draconian recommendations of Obama's deficit commission.

Vote for THIS Asshole in 2012? Not if his life depended on it

WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama's approval ratings have sunk to the lowest level of his presidency, so low that he'd lose the White House to Republican Mitt Romney if the election were held today, according to a new McClatchy-Marist poll.

The biggest reason for Obama's fall: a sharp drop in approval among Democrats and liberals, apparently unhappy with his moves toward the center since he led the party to landslide losses in November's midterm elections. At the same time, he's gained nothing among independents.

"He's having the worst of both worlds right now," said Lee Miringoff, the director of the Marist Institute for Public Opinion at Marist College in New York, which conducted the national survey.

"As he moves to the center, he's not picking up support among independents and he's having some fall-off among his base. If his strategy is to gain independents and keep the Democrats in tow, it isn't working so far."

Read more: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/12/10/105105/poll-obamas-losing-support-romney.html#ixzz17o9nevCt

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DuaneV
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Apr. 6, 2010 9:51 am

The party has been taken over by corporatists at the leadership level, and the Neo - Liberals have been in charge for 25 years, at least. A DNC shithead was on C -Span parroting the party line again this morning. Just think if they did this in promoting a Public Option. But that was obviously never their priority, or they would have done just that. Their approach to this is damning in that it shows they know how to fight when they want to. Bastards.

I e - mailed the McClatchy article to the White House yesterday, told Obama to grow a spine. Problem is, he already does have a spine. He's happy to fight for his real interests. Against the rest of the Democrats.

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DuaneV
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Apr. 6, 2010 9:51 am

ONLY a dem can kill Social Security and since Obama's Deficit Commission couldn't do it Obama is going after Social Securrity thru this tax plan - calling it a gift to the middle class....

What's that saying? Don't piss on my head and call it rain!

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mtdon
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

The President has squandered majorities in the House and Senate, and it's because of a lack of leadership. He doesn't understand the fact that 70% of the population wanted single payer or a public option, that the majority want out of these two wars, that we wanted accountability for the people who tortured, and lied us into two wars (while robbing the treasury blind), that we expected leadership on DADT, that people remember he campaigned on reversing the ridiculous Bush tax cuts for the obscenely wealthy...He can't tell us we're just a bunch of Un - Serious, sanctimonious, Dirty Fucking Hippies when we're the people who put him into office..He apparently has surrounded himself with people like Rahm (Fucking Retarded) Emanuel and Robert (Professional Left) Gibbs, because he agrees with them. I've been saying at Eschaton that Obama has Stockholm Syndrome for months. I think Frank Rich stole my lines...If he showed the Republicans a fraction of the anger he feels toward his own base, we'd all be supporting him. Instead he begs people who want to destroy his presidency to like him, and he doesn't seem to understand the fact that they're not negotiating in good faith. As James Carville said on CNN tonight, capitulation is not the same thing as compromise. I hate to psychoanalyze him, but I think he desperately wants to be included in the old boys' club..

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DuaneV
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Apr. 6, 2010 9:51 am

Just watch Obama's body language when he speaks about the progressives - - he REALLY does not like us! and you know what? That feeling is becoming mutual - heck I worked to get Obama elected and even was physically threatened many times! WHAT A MISTAKE........

I won't make that error this time - I'll work for the Greens or Progressive Party - even if they can't win - I'll get the TRUTH out there and besides how could I go out threre now and canvass for his policies without lying thru my teeth....

I WON'T DO IT!

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mtdon
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Obama is more worried about his 200,000 speeches after his time in the WH than helping the POOR.

and speaking of hippies - here is the perfect video by a guy named joeyess.... says perfectly what we'r saying here.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKEZoY-TMG4

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mtdon
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Politicians have to laugh every time somebody criticizes them for being too dumb to recognize blah blah blah...when in fact they are not stupid, dumb, ignorant or unaware when they support policies clearly intended to diminish liberty, freedom and an equal share in this country's bounty.

Capitalism in the US will allow another 45,000 people to die from a lack of affordable health insurance - in spite of 70% of the public having demanded single payer. Thank Obama for that bastardization of popular representation.

Bottom line here...we no longer control the democratic process and the politicians can do and say whatever they like and get away with it.

I've had enough of Thom Hartmann.

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Dusty
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

"Purist"?? "Circular Firing Squad"??? Why is Thom adopting the insulting language of the DLC traitors who have been "firing" at their own party for twenty years?!???!!

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DuaneV
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Apr. 6, 2010 9:51 am

What drives me crazy is Thom trotting out the " Obama is a good guy" "Obama means well"

HOW does THOM know this? Does Thom personally KNOW Obama?

It seems Thom listens to the WORDS of Obama and not his ACTIONS.....

and Obama's ACTIONS are anti-poor and middle class and are trickle down on steriods.....

So is Thom naive or a shill for the democrats? becasue it's one or the other.....

WILL Thom EVER wake up to Obama's ACTIONS?

DOES Thom have a line in the sand?

Or is Thom a millionaire and has his head in the sky and simply DOE NOT understand Main Street's problems.....

ina 2 party system we're stuck w/ either the rethugs or the dem's - so we're stuck until at least 2016 for change.....

mtdon's picture
mtdon
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote mtdon:

What drives me crazy is Thom trotting out the " Obama is a good guy" "Obama means well"

HOW does THOM know this? Does Thom personally KNOW Obama?

Thom reminds me of the Bush dead enders... who knew deep down know Bush was a total disaster for America but because of cognative dissodence, or cultist loyalty ,or whatever, just couldn't bring themselves to walk away from him. They would always, no matter what, make excuses for him. "Oh I know he's made some mistakes but in my heart I just know he's a good christian man..."' we're seeing the same thing today.

tcandew
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

If Obama declares war with Iran Thom will go on air and complain about it for a week. The next week he'll go on air and say the the liberals who complain should stop it and have Obama's back because there is nothing we can do about it. Thom knows where his bread is buttered, he can play his super progressive hippie liberal shtick up to a point but when it comes to actually standing firm against the system, he folks like a cheap empty suit.

tcandew
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Thom really got me riled up today. He's a perfect apologizer for Obama......if he says "he's playing chess and the GOP are playing checkers" one more time my head is going to explode!!!! Thom also seems to be the perfect Obama "progressive".........wimpy, spineless and a total "I-have-NO-line-in-the-sand" conviction. Is there anything they will not do to stick to their guns [or do they have guns to stick to?] Sick of it!!!

P.S. Thom's flip-flop did not endear me to him........just re-enforces his spinelessness!!

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hibou7
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Dec. 13, 2010 11:40 am

Any chance we can recruit Dean, Edwards or anyone who is a progressive for 2012?

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Phaedrus76
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Sep. 14, 2010 7:21 pm

#35 DYLANESQUE wrote 1 hour 34 min ago THOM HARTMANN IS WISHY

THOM HARTMANN IS WISHY WASHY!

ALL OVER THE PLACE!

DEAD WRONG!

AND AN APOLOGIST FOR RATS!!

Especially because two (2) solutions exist to block the OBAMA TAX CUTS.

Before I explain the two (2) solutions, PLEASE NOTE and allow me to state that I prefer much more a Bernie Sanders/Nancy Pelosi ticket in 2012!! Sanders and Pelosi are far more effective Populists than traitorous Obama!

First, Senator Sanders can still filibuster the bill in the Senate!!

Secondly,

(1) Let the BUSH TAX CUTS expire.

(2) In January, 2011, attach the Middle Class Tax Cuts and the Emergency Unemployment Insurance Extension to a Government funding or Military spending bill.

(3) Let the Republicans veto it and shut down the government, as they did during the Clinton administration.

(4) After a few days or a week, the Republicans will capitulate --- as they did under Clinton --- because the public and Obama will excoriate the Republicans, IF OBAMA HAS THE BACKBONE, THE SPINE, TO STAND UP TO THE REPUBLICANS, instead of berating and scolding his LOST BASE!! (Obama is a wimp, a traitor, a loser, whom I don't respect!)

(5) Then make the Middle Class Tax Cuts and Emergency Unemployment Insurance Extension retroactive to the first of the year. QED (Theorem proved!).

PSP [POSTSCRIPT PLUS]::---

PLEASE ADD these two words to your vocabulary::---

PSY-'CHOP-ATHY, I define in this context to be, THE TAKEOVER AND CONTROL OF ALL MODERN INSTITUTIONS BY PSYCHOPATHS.

POLITICAL PONEROLOGY::--- THE SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATIONS INTO THE UTILIZATION, ADJUSTMENT, AND ADAPTATION OF EVIL FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES.

PLEASE CONSULT::---

1. Andrze M. Lobaczewski and Laura Knight-Jadczyk, Political Ponerology: A Science on the Nature of Evil Adjusted for Political Purposes, 2007.

2. Bob Altemeyer, The Authoritarians, 2007.

3. Dr. Paul Babiak and Dr. Robert D. Hale, Professor Emeritus and Industrial Psychologist, respectively, Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go to Work, 2007.

4. asb2525, Snakes in Suits, Skirts, and Military Garb: When Anal-Fixated Psychopaths Go to Work and RAW WAR!!, 2010 (to be e-mailed).

**5.“Ponerology”: n. division of theology dealing with evil; theological doctrine of wickedness or evil; from the Greek: poneros -> evil'.

We are not proposing a “theological” study, but rather a scientific study of what we can plainly call Evil. The problem is, our materialist scientific culture does not readily admit that evil actually exists, per se. The lack of such a science has cost humanity millions of lives and untold suffering.

22 August 2010 Time for Change: Why the Corrupt Few Wreak So Much Death, Destruction, and Suffering on the Rest of us

by Time for Change Democratic Underground

DYLANESQUE
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote Phaedrus76:

Any chance we can recruit Dean, Edwards or anyone who is a progressive for 2012?

I suppose you could recruit anyone, but who do you think would actually have a chance? With the liberals getting spanked in the last election for being too liberal, how would running someone even more liberal help? Perhaps putting the shovel down and listening to Thom for just a moment would help.

I think this is a great opportunity for Hillary. I can just imagine a Clinton versus Palin race. The entertainment value is just too high to measure.

Paleo-con
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Hillary? why bother........

Hillary was neckdeep in the coup in honduras - kept supplying them cash for arms after she said the usa wasn't...... pressured other central american countries to accept the results of a sham election etc etc etc

If Hillary goes w/ the oligarch's(where basically 13 familes own 90% of the wealth) in honduras where no one in the usa is paying attention I'd argue that is shows her true intentions.....

if they can't lift a finger to help the working classes or democracy itself when there's no political pressure against it why would you think she's going to do anything different here where the corporate powers WILL be pushing her?

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mtdon
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Exactly, the alternative within the Democratic Party cannot be nominated, or could not at the last go round. Kucinich is the only real Progressive, although Edwards did focus on poverty before he got focussed elsewhere.

For the virulent we will never vote for Obama or Democrats again crowd, I hear your frustration but not your strategy for making anything better. If you could get any of the people you named nominated or elected, if you could make the Green Party the independent choice and blow up the duopoly, I would bow down in grateful praise. But you cannot or at least have not given any indication of coming close. Therefor, the duopoly game is the only game you get to play at election time.

You could focus elsewhere than on the election issue. Get involved outside electoral politics unless you are working on electoral reform. Do not play suicidal games for emotional satisfaction because you do not pay for the consequences of your actions. You do not have to believe that crumbs are half a loaf, but they do feed some. I think Obama made a bad choice and put the wrong priorities first. I think the Middle Class ought not be punked or treated as helpless children. Most of us did not even notice the tax cuts in the first place, and what we will pay in increase is peanuts compared to what we have to pay for the rich to party.

OK, but I have not proved my voter strength. Obama and the DC pols think the independents will rally to his push against the Left. He could also realize that pissing us off will get us off our asses pushing policies he needs to have others be for. We have been acting as if he were our champion and he does act as if he takes us for granted. But how much that is a sell-out and how much it is about his own position among competing forces remains to be seen.

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DRC
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote Paleo-con:With the liberals getting spanked in the last election for being too liberal, how would running someone even more liberal help? Perhaps putting the shovel down and listening to Thom for just a moment would help.

I think this is a great opportunity for Hillary. I can just imagine a Clinton versus Palin race. The entertainment value is just too high to measure.

It's more than a little disturbing that you find the kind of politics shrouded in deceit that rewards banksters and throws working people out of their homes amusing. And no matter how many times you say it, the Dems didn't lose so many seats because they were "too liberal." They lost because the liberal progressives that gave dems majorities in the house, senate and Whitehouse, were lied to by the corporate candidate Obama and stayed away from the polls. Hillary would have done the same or worse.

If you think a Hillary vs Palin presidential race is good entertaiment, you are cynical and must dislike a sovereign USA and dislike the plight of the poor and middle class in this country and others. Hillary is a shrewd global power player and attends Bilderberger meetings, and no Thom, Bilderberger is not code for Jews or Jew hate. The only religion that comes into play is the literal worship of money and this religion is practiced by a minority of Jews, Anglos, Blacks, Asians you name it. Most people of all colors and ethnicity are happy to earn a decent living.

Look's like Thom has the rightwingers support nowadays while progressives have seen and heard enough of Obama and his supporters. CHANGE doesn't come with supporting the exact same system the continues to destroy individual freedoms and national sovereignity.

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Choco
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

I believe Thom just understands the reality of the American poltical system. There is NO way a real progressive will ever get elected. Especially when you have a plutocracy and not a democracy. The rich don't tend to care for those who promote the down trodden.

I still am looking forward to President Palin. No it's not because I hate the USA, but because I think the nation does have to hit that rocky bottom before she finds her true self again.

It may be a bit of a bumpy ride, but if you are prepared, you will be fine.

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meljomur
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

All energy directed toward reforming political and state structures is useless. All efforts to push through a “progressive” agenda within the corridors of power are naïve. Trust in the reformation of our corporate state reflects a failure to recognize that those who govern, including Barack Obama, are as deaf to public demands and suffering as those in the old Communist regimes. We cannot rely on any systems of power, including the pillars of the liberal establishment—the press, liberal religious institutions, universities, labor, culture and the Democratic Party. They have been weakened to the point of anemia or work directly for the corporations that dominate our existence. We can rely now on only ourselves, on each other." - Chris Hedges
http://www.truthdig.com/report/print/no_act_of_rebellion_is_wasted_20101213/

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making progress
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote Choco:

It's more than a little disturbing that you find the kind of politics shrouded in deceit that rewards banksters and throws working people out of their homes amusing. And no matter how many times you say it, the Dems didn't lose so many seats because they were "too liberal." They lost because the liberal progressives that gave dems majorities in the house, senate and Whitehouse, were lied to by the corporate candidate Obama and stayed away from the polls. Hillary would have done the same or worse.

No, what is disturbing is all the teeth gnashing, hand wringing, and debts of despair over a harmless extension of the current tax rates. One would think something serious happened and imminent doom is just around the corner. So the far left hit a bump in the road, stuff happens. Did the right join each other in a hot tub of despair and misery after the 2006 and 2008 elections? No, they shook it off, made a plan, and joined each other in achieving that plan; they did not join a circular firing squad or take turns throwing each other under the bus.

"Too liberal", yes. I guess denial goes with the need to be miserable. Obama's support with his base, those who call themselves liberal, was at 82% before, during, and after the election. The evidence is that he did not lose his base. Obama's support amongst conservatives did not change much; it was low and stayed low. Obama's support amongst the independents is what made all the difference. Independent’s support went from the mid 60's to the mid 30's. In what world do the centrist abandon a politician for not being liberal enough?

If you think a Hillary vs Palin presidential race is good entertaiment, you are cynical and must dislike a sovereign USA and dislike the plight of the poor and middle class in this country and others.

Yeah, yeah… I must like to kick puppies and pull the wings off of flies too. Sigh… Why is it so hard to have a conversation without the personal attacks? And I am not just talking personally, look at what is happening to Thom on this board. In my view, Thom rarely makes any points that I agree with. But on the issue of the SCOTUS, is absolutely correct. The side that controls the SCOTUS controls the bottom line. The Executive and Legislative branches are just side shows in comparison.

Paleo-con
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Maybe my brother was right--the real ('practical') 'Golden Rule' is 'the man with the gold makes the rules'.....

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Kerry
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

so they can blow up the budget AND decrease Social Security revenues by 33% - and NOTHING Happened?

Another trillion in debt and the 1st potentially fatal shot at SS IS A BIG DEAL -

it'll embolden these crooks to come after every single social program there is - STARTING w/ Social Security.......

At least it shows that the DEBT Commission IS BS!

and you knwo what - faced w/ a choice of Obama and some other rightwing schmuck I choose NEITHER......

I won't do it- and I worked to get Obama elected ..... What a fool I was - AT least I can admit that!

NADER was right!

THAT is our 3rd choice in the "Who are you goiung to support - you have no choice" BS

I do have a choice!

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mtdon
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

mtdon, I do have a hard time swallowing that many on this site are suddenly enraged over deficit spending. I have read hundreds of post on this site alone trying to explain that spending money we don't have is actually a stimulus and not a bad thing. And then there is the nit... This is not a tax cut; it is a continuance of the existing tax rates with an increase in estate tax. In reality, the Government will not be taking in any less money than they already do; they will be taking more.

On the subject of SS, I'll have to agree with you. I was not thinking of SS when I posted. SS is already hurting, and this will just increase the pain. If anything, SS needs more money, not less.

Some of us saw the Debt Commission as BS when it was announced; welcome to the club.

I never get an answer to this question, but it can't hurt to ask again. The Tea Party was successful in hijacking an existing party and getting their way on election day. Why can't the left follow the same blueprint?

Paleo-con
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

The obdurate refusal of the right is blatant and in Americas face.

"When evil resists a push, it doesn't push back, it immediately seeks to destroy. Boldness is required for first limiting and then overcoming evil.

Of course surviving is nice too."

"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong." - Voltaire

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bamboo
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Here's why the Left doesn't follow the Tea Party strategy:

1. we don't have billioniares willing to kick in the CASHOLA..... while they have many of them..... and soros doesn't count - as he gives peanuts compared to the rightwingers.....

2. the Dem supporters are lost in their "Lesser of 2 evils" - we'll get something worse if we fight this is a LOSING MENTALITY - and Americans HATE A LOSER - even if your side is right if you appear weak Americans will not foollow you.....

3. the dem Poitical class is chasing the billionaires money just as the repub's are - so the Dems are forced to the right while the tea Party IS THE RIGHT......

4. the tea party - at least in appearances to their members - are willing to take a stand against their enemies - the dem's - the Dem's WILL NOT fight against their enemies - the repub's becasue deep down THEY ARE REPUB's - which is why you see Obama threaten and insult the progressives instead of the righties.....

5. basically there is NO DEMOCRATIC PARTY anymore - only 2 sides to the corporate rethug party - with both sides putting the middle class and WORKING POOR in their gunsights.....

6. AND the lefty talkers like Thom - WILL NEVER FIGHT BACK - they are inherently weak and lack a moral compass - or a line in the sand as NADER puts it - SO the LEFT LOSES the STORY - which is why you see THOM interview rightwingnuts all the time BUT VERY RARELY interview people who are far left - so the STORY continually gets driven to the RIGHT - and I blame the PROFESSIONAL LEFT for being patsies to the right and playing right into their strategy - by interviewing ONLY righties and conserva-dems and people Thom agrees with- (NO hardcore LEFTIES) the STORY gets driven to the RIGHT -

whiuch makes perfect sense to a lefty who is more concerned w/ having an enemy than DRIVING THE STORY - and I know Thom knows this as he wrote an entire book about DRIVING THE STORY -

too bad he doesn't follow his own advice

In the END the professional LEFT is basically useless at REALPOLITIK- and the circular firing squad is THOM and Randi etc saying we have to have the fascist Obama's back!

OBAMA IS NOT THE LEFT! Follow his ACTIONS not his words - and especially don't give me "he's basically a good guy who wants to do the right thing"

HOW then heck does Thom KNOW THAT? thru wishful naiveatia - IE COGNATIVE DISSONANCE

PALEO-CON does that answer your question?

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mtdon
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Until progressives get there act/plan "together" the only option is the "2 evils".Progressives don`t even have a plan for "capitalism failure"? Give Thom & Obama a break,they know we don`t have no life boats on this sinking ship.Progressive need to focus on a plan/lifeboats to keep from going down with the ship.Protests don`t make a lifeboat.

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tayl44
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Politics is a "tug-a-war" you have to "pull hard" for your side or there will be no movement in your direction. At this time progressives have to "pull hard" and yes it may offend the PC among us.

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captbebops
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

mtdon, thanks! Yes, that answers most of the question. Giving a little leeway for semantics, I can see where you are coming from and what the frustration is. Taking control of the Democrat Party might be hard, but not impossible. So its not even worthy of a try? The first point is where we don't see eye to eye. The left has lots of billionaires; Soros is just one of them. The Democracy Alliance is just one of many organizations that pump hundreds of millions into leftist causes. Then there is the big daddy; the Open Society Institute, or in layman's terms, the Whose-Who of left wing billionaires and millionaires. No, there is hardly a shortage of money on the left when compared to the right. The big, no, huge difference is that the right spends their own money, while the left likes to depend on OPM.

Paleo-con
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Thom you are right about falling in love with a politician- and many of us who supported BO in 08 certainly were in love. That's why for the longest time you heard "I still love the guy but I'm really upset about..."

Anger replaced discouragement when BO and his people started dissing us directly- insulting us who had been his supporters. Now we are pissed off.

I'm also pissed off because Obama, whether he is a corporate stooge or simply a genteel manager type who is not about to change the game which is stacked against the people and in favor of the rich and the corporations, Obama has let himself be lured out into the territory of ugly "compromises" with the GOP, a place where his supporters can no longer support him; and of course he will get no extra support from the right, so he is left alone and weak. That seems to me to have been the PRINCIPLE PURPOSE of the GOP in making these "deals". More so even than gaining further advantage for their corporate paymasters; BO's staff is either incompetent and stupid in this regard, or are complicit. Hard to tell which, frankly.

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Dvmx
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote Paleo-con: Obama's support amongst conservatives did not change much; it was low and stayed low.

Conservatives should love Obama. He is not a liberal and doesn't even really like liberals. He has broken most of his campaign pledges: Guantanamo is still in operation, we're still in Iraq, we're still in Afghanistan, Unocal consultant and Afghanistan USA puppet Hamid Karzai has announced the TAPI pipeline deal, which is what the wars were all about to begin with. He personally took out the public option in health care and is now forcing everyone to buy into PRIVATE health care. You guys should love him. He's allowing the fast tracking of home foreclosures even while Wall St. is set to gain unprecedented bonuses of somewhere in excess of $144 billion. Unemployment is very high and growing, which thrills the cheap labor conservatives who think there should be no upper limit on earnings to CEOs but who also think minimum wage is way too high. Obama is a globalist elitist and was groomed to destroy the middle class, or at least continue with the destruction that Reagan started, GHW Bush continued, Clinton continued, GW Bush continued and now Obama. They are all ego driven puppets working for international bankers. They are not a whole lot different than the bananna republic dictators in third world countries who sell out their country and fellow citizens in exchange of a life of opulance and decadance.

Obama's support amongst the independents is what made all the difference. Independent’s support went from the mid 60's to the mid 30's. In what world do the centrist abandon a politician for not being liberal enough?

Try your BS on somebody else. Over 72 percent of the people wanted the public option and Obama unilaterally took it off the table. He pissed off his voters, the liberals/progressives and that's the reality. He folded on the tax extensions for the rich without so much as a fight. I'm not falling for the theater of progressivism any more. We are not progressing, we are regressing into a literal oligarchy.

Choco "If you think a Hillary vs Palin presidential race is good entertaiment, you are cynical and must dislike a sovereign USA and dislike the plight of the poor and middle class in this country and others."

Yeah, yeah… I must like to kick puppies and pull the wings off of flies too. Sigh… Why is it so hard to have a conversation without the personal attacks?

You are the one who spoke those words about Hillary and Palin making good entertainment. With all the lives at stake, you think this stuff is funny and entertaining and that makes you cynical. I'll stand by that even if it perturbs you a little bit.

And I am not just talking personally, look at what is happening to Thom on this board. In my view, Thom rarely makes any points that I agree with. But on the issue of the SCOTUS, is absolutely correct. The side that controls the SCOTUS controls the bottom line. The Executive and Legislative branches are just side shows in comparison.

We have three completely bought and paid for branches of govt so your point that SCOTUS is the head of the beast is lost on me. The SCOTUS provides legal cover for the crimes committed by the members of the other two branches and other affluent criminals. People who love money, careers, materialism over everything else have infested govt and are causing suffering around the world.

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Choco
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Choco,

You do realize you are playing into the hands of the trolls who have inundated this site with anti-Obama, anti-Thom posts.

I understand your frustration with Obama, but so do they. Play you they will.

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meljomur
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Probably, Paleo, you aren't listening to progressive radio or following progressive threads. Progressives are getting very dis-illusioned with Obama. Just exactly which major Bush policy has Obama reversed?

Independents voted for change, not more of the same.They'll switch parties and get more of the same...again.

Continuing Bush policies really isn't a liberal agenda. When Repugnants capture the White House, we'll get more of the same.

When the money supply on Main Street is below the productive capacity of the nation, governments can simply spend money into existence, they don't have to borrow money into existence. They don't have to increase deficits under those conditions.. That's the biggest kept secret since the establishment of the Bank of England in 1694 by private shareholders.

The 12 private banks making up the Federal Reserve System keep it as well..They are all shareholders in the Fed and receive their annual dividend payments right on schedule.

The nation will undoubtably continue spiraling into a systemic meltdown. regardless of which neo-liberal twits, Dems or Repugnants, are in charge.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

polycarp2
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

I've always meant to but never got around to getting a T-shirt that says:

Nader Was Right....all along.

That quote from Chris Hedges pretty much sums it up. Here's one from Julian Assange: "Whereas, in the US, to a large degree, and in other western countries, the basic elements of society have been so heavily fiscalized through contractual obligations that political change doesn't seem to result in economic change. In other words, political change doesn't result in change."

That one hit me like a brick, like that 'diamond bullet' (Apocalyspe Now) and it was liberating. Unless we are willing to organize at the local level and get our hands dirty and our heads cracked, nothing is really going to change. The infrastructure from Obama's win is still in place. It will take a truly progressive candidate to fire up the people. Too bad Nader has aged so. He still inspires me and is spot on with his analysis but the general populace needs someone younger to identify with. Someone like a Grayson. Who knows?

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dim
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

So we're Trolls if we look at actions and not words?

If we are not hypocritical and hold dem's to the same standards that we hold repub's we're trolls?

And here I thought a troll was a conservative that faked being a dem in order to tear down the dem's?

what am I missing?

ANYWAY i'll follow obama's actions and not his words - and will stand for what I believe and not a "cult of personality" that will get me to fight FOR the exact same policies that i'd fight AGAINST if it was a rethug in the White House....

Blindly supporting a politician that's supposedly on your side - even when they throw you under the bus is what got us into this corner in the 1st place - until the dem's say we have a few beliefs that we WILL NOT back down on we will forver accept the lesser of 2 evils - whcih means a GREATER evil every single time....... thsi fight should have been fought long ago.... Hopefully we'll fight it now before we lose everything.....

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mtdon
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote Choco:

Conservatives should love Obama. He is not a liberal and doesn't even really like liberals. He has broken most of his campaign pledges...

Nope, he is not a conservative, so conservatives have no reason to love him. We are amused by his tendency to throw those near to him under the bus, but that doesn't mean we like him. Broken pledges? Is that supposed to make him different than other politicians?

Try your BS on somebody else. Over 72 percent of the people wanted the public option and Obama unilaterally took it off the table. He pissed off his voters, the liberals/progressives and that's the reality. He folded on the tax extensions for the rich without so much as a fight. I'm not falling for the theater of progressivism any more. We are not progressing, we are regressing into a literal oligarchy.

Sorry, no BS being applied. We are talking about Obama's support. Pointing to the public option support is not relevant when trying to show if Obama has support. Realclearpolitics has a massive collection of polls. Even the polls done by the left show he lost the center, while the left and right barely moved. And if it matters, he folded on the tax issue after the election. So that issue also holds little bearing on November's outcome.

You are the one who spoke those words about Hillary and Palin making good entertainment. With all the lives at stake, you think this stuff is funny and entertaining and that makes you cynical. I'll stand by that even if it perturbs you a little bit.

There are lives at stake if Clinton runs against Palin? Being a little eccentric are we? Yes, I made the comment, and it stands on its own. You took the frivolous liberty of assigning the comment to the "then you must be" list. And yes, feel free to stand by that tactic. It is apparent that anger is one of your weapons, and I don't know you well enough to know if it is all you have.

We have three completely bought and paid for branches of govt so your point that SCOTUS is the head of the beast is lost on me. The SCOTUS provides legal cover for the crimes committed by the members of the other two branches and other affluent criminals. People who love money, careers, materialism over everything else have infested govt and are causing suffering around the world.

You hit the nail on the head. SCOTUS gives the other two branches cover. That is what gives it power.

Paleo-con
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote meljomur:

Choco,

You do realize you are playing into the hands of the trolls who have inundated this site with anti-Obama, anti-Thom posts.

I understand your frustration with Obama, but so do they. Play you they will.

I'm tired of being lied to and decieved. It's everywhere and it's getting worse all the time. I've said it before, Obama is not the problem, the entrenched bankster run system is the problem. The banksters own the media, the military, the intelligence agencies, the think tanks and the politicians. My frustration with Obama is that I gave him my vote, my hopes for real change, and it looks as if he is not his own man, but a lackey of the same banksters that surround him that Poly mentions often.

I'm not being played by the Trolls, I've just had enough of playing nice and I'm tired of everybody in the media playing political calculus. We need to establish the rule of law and go after the people who are engineering the demise of the middle class. Look around you Mel, England's social system is being dismantled too. Didn't I see huge protests last week? Wasn't the Prince's car vandalized?

Besides that, you are the one who voted republican this last election and you are the one who has been saying of late that the USA has to hit rock bottom before it can get better. Have you calculated the suffering that would entail? How are those actions and statements in any way progressive?

I'm not just bitchin, either. I proposed a 2012 ticket with Kucinich and Ron Paul and both said they would choose each other. This ticket would bring the middle class together and we could get something done. I think Thom, you and everyone else would do well to support a ticket that not only could win, but win big and send a message to corporate America. By not supporting the Kucinich/Ron Paul ticket is playing into the hands of the global money masters who control Obama, Bush, Clinton, Reagan, Bush, et al. Thom had RP on today and RP was couragous enough to defend Assange. It's going to get a lot uglier before it gets better.

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Choco
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

I saw part of that interview with Ron Paul. In line with the Julian Assange issue, didn't Ron Paul also say something to the effect that 'state secrets in an open democracy' are only appropriate in a declared war--something we haven't had since World War II....and, if this were a declared war (as outlined by the Constitution--any of you Constitutional fundamentalists around to comment?), then those who 'leaked the secrets out' could be tried for treason. But, since this isn't a declared war, what does it mean for a democratic, supposedly 'open' society to even have secrets? What happened to Obama's 'transparency' position?

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Kerry
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

"Hope" and "Change We Can Believe In" are brilliant uses of brainwashing.....

If you HOPE you don't have to ACT and if you

BELIEVE then you don't have to critically THINK -

hence the LEFT gave away it's power to the Obama admin - No protests over what would have been greatly protested if done by a republican.....

That's why Thom should be glad about the finally awakening lefties.....NOW movements can be started - or restarted

Thom talks about Movement politics and he's right - but when people HOPE and BELIEVE in Obama then they don't have to ACT or THINK critically - leading to hypocrisy and your ideals being defeated BEFORE the battle even begins........

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mtdon
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote Choco:

[I'm tired of being lied to and decieved. It's everywhere and it's getting worse all the time. I've said it before, Obama is not the problem, the entrenched bankster run system is the problem. The banksters own the media, the military, the intelligence agencies, the think tanks and the politicians. My frustration with Obama is that I gave him my vote, my hopes for real change, and it looks as if he is not his own man, but a lackey of the same banksters that surround him that Poly mentions often.

I'm not being played by the Trolls, I've just had enough of playing nice and I'm tired of everybody in the media playing political calculus. We need to establish the rule of law and go after the people who are engineering the demise of the middle class. Look around you Mel, England's social system is being dismantled too. Didn't I see huge protests last week? Wasn't the Prince's car vandalized?

Besides that, you are the one who voted republican this last election and you are the one who has been saying of late that the USA has to hit rock bottom before it can get better. Have you calculated the suffering that would entail? How are those actions and statements in any way progressive?

I'm not just bitchin, either. I proposed a 2012 ticket with Kucinich and Ron Paul and both said they would choose each other. This ticket would bring the middle class together and we could get something done. I think Thom, you and everyone else would do well to support a ticket that not only could win, but win big and send a message to corporate America. By not supporting the Kucinich/Ron Paul ticket is playing into the hands of the global money masters who control Obama, Bush, Clinton, Reagan, Bush, et al. Thom had RP on today and RP was couragous enough to defend Assange. It's going to get a lot uglier before it gets better.

I am well aware of what is happening in the UK. I have attended all these protests in London, and quite frankly its refreshing to see people fighting back (something I don't see in America any longer).

I don't believe Ron Paul (who I respect on his principles, but I don't really agree with) and Dennis Kucinich have a chance in hell of representing the USA. You know that. I know that.

I don't believe the US has a democracy any longer. I think with the Citizens United ruling, the USA became a full fledged plutocracy. There is absolutely nothing democratic about America any longer. Now while that may be a very sad reality to grasp. I think once a person can accept it, its easier to prepare yourself and those closest to you.

You are lucky Choco, you can go to Canada. Not everyone has that option. I envy you that.

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meljomur
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Middle Class conservatives love RP and middle class liberals love Kucinich. Both said they would choose the other as a running mate. Why do you say they wouldn't have a chance? Neither are under the thumb of either their own parties or the corporate globalists. People are waking up and if we continue to accept corporate candidates things will continue to get worse.

Bringing these two together is also the best way to bring the middle class together against the financial oppressors. I respect your opinions, but I think you are too quick to disregard a very promising solution to this left/right divide-and-conquer strategy that has been so effective.

The American people have failed to insist that the rule of law be adhered to. We have had three very public assasinations designed to Shock and Awe: Kennedy, King and Kennedy, many false flag events like Pearl Harbor, Gulf of Tonkin, Lusitania, 9/11, Operation Northwoods, etc. If we continue to let the people responsible for these treasonous acts continue to influence our politics then we can't expect anything except more of the same.

Obama is not the problem, Bush was not the problem. It's the people behind them that are the problem. Take either man away from the equation and up pops another one of their chosen candidates that will get the lion's share of coverage and worm his or her persona into the hearts and minds of the easily distracted American public. The will say the things that the PR agencies have determined the public wants to hear, and then when they get in power it's business as usual. In this case business means destroying the middle class and the manufacturing infrastructure of the US and other industrialized nations. What's wrong with a country that fast tracks home foreclosures while Wall St. Execs line up for an unprecedented $144 billion in year end bonuses. This system is broken and continually playing their game in their arena with their rules and their referees is not conducive to a good outcome.

Bottom line is we need to go in an entirely different direction, one that leaves out the corporate candidates.

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Choco
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Mel voted republican? she admitted that?

and calls me a TROLL?

if that's true then hypocrisy knows no bounds...............

AS a obama supprter I find that hard to beleive - SO MEL is that true? did you vote republican?

BUT are now a obama supprter?

1+1=15 to some people

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mtdon
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote meljomur:You are lucky Choco, you can go to Canada. Not everyone has that option. I envy you that.

Canada is not immune to the corporate global oligarchy. Canada is the US's number one trading partner and a drive across the border will reveal most of the same American franchises. It's not Canada that will provide a refuge, its the remoteness of where I live(d) that provides a sense of community and some immunity from a world obsessed with money worship.

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Choco
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

The shadow of the death-star Empire falls across Canada, but it also touches Europe and Asia. We know what it does in the Middle East. If it were just about us, the world could let us sink in our own shit.

The process of awakening involves the stages of grief or death and dying that Thom described. Breaking up from an affair may be hard or a great relief. I would like to suggest that we give up hero worship and savior complexes about who gets elected President. This does not mean failing to appreciate the damage that can be done by an evil emperor serving an evil empire. Having an emperor who is trying to prove that it can be a decent society is still better even if his project is doomed. We can build more from something than from nothing. Desiring greater devastation is giving in to the grief.

Predicting greater devastation is another thing. Becoming aware of how far from reality we have strayed is essential if we are to avoid being caught up in illusion rather than surfing the learning curves of history. They do catch us by surprise, and the only surprise left is being surprised instead of expecting to be surprised.

Rather than being pissed at Obama because branding worked in America, why not help debrand the process? People voted for something more than an illusion even if that is all they saw. Hope and Change have good demographics for good reasons. And do try to think for a minute about what a McCain/Pailn administration would have been. In my worst moments I would never wish that upon the world even if I thought America deserved it. We do have some responsibilities left to those beyond our borders as well as for those of us within them.

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DRC
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Currently Chatting

The world we're leaving for today's teens...

Without immediate global action on climate change, today's teenagers will be forced to live with the consequences of our inaction. The World Bank has issued their third report of climate change, and it says that global temperatures could rise by as much as 4 degrees Celsius by the time today's teens hit their 80th birthday.

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