RESPONSE to religious terrorism

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The question was asked..

I can only offer that we should not (1) do "exactly" what the terrorists wanted (as bush2 did), and (2) do not attack a country that had nothing to do with said terrorism (Dry drunk; Bush2 again).

Religious terrorism had been going on for thousands of years with no solution as of yet (holy wars, pogroms, inquisition, now many feel todays war is a war against Islam). And before this, when Christians were a minority, they were fed to the lions.

I believe the answer is outlined in John Lennon's song "Imagine" (nothing to kill or die for).. Education may be the key, because educated people tend to leave ancient superstitions behind. Religion makes it possible for charasmatic leaders get groups together willing to kill. But even if there were no religion, we would get power mad psychopaths (they always seem very driven to climb into positions of power)..

I believe the combination of education and economic justice (liberal ideas) would be the most effective methods we could nurture to promote world peace. War mongering as CON's are doiong in our name, only causes hate to fester, ensuring generations for more bloodshed.

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bobbler
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Comments

I believe the combination of education and economic justice (liberal ideas) would be the most effective methods we could nurture to promote world peace. War mongering as CON's are doiong in our name, only causes hate to fester, ensuring generations for more bloodshed.

How do you deal with people who throw acid on young girls seeking an education? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27713077/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/

Or people who kill young doctors at their graduation ceremony in a nation in desperate need of doctors?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/03/AR200912...

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Mr.Burns
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Quote Mr.Burns:

I believe the combination of education and economic justice (liberal ideas) would be the most effective methods we could nurture to promote world peace. War mongering as CON's are doiong in our name, only causes hate to fester, ensuring generations for more bloodshed.

How do you deal with people who throw acid on young girls seeking an education? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27713077/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/

Or people who kill young doctors at their graduation ceremony in a nation in desperate need of doctors?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/03/AR200912...

You cant.

This ideal is meant to work in time counted in generations. The new generation would have less hate, and therefore less violence.

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bobbler
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You need to "educate" yourself as to what the doctrines and ideology of Islam, and the example of the life of Muhammad say. As you say, every group, religious or atheist, will have those who use their beliefs in a way or combine them with politics in a way that results in them fighting or warring or killing. But what makes Islam absolutely unique is that it's founder, Muhammad was a warlord and he baked making war, Jihad war, right into the core doctrines of the religion/ideology from the very beginning. In fact, the Jihad war doctrines CANNOT be removed from Islam without making Islam something that it is NOT. Islam is Jihad, Jihad to impose Sharia, that is what Islam is. That is very very very different than some Christians misinterpreting the peaceful message of Christ or any other group distorting their beliefs to encourage war. Any person or civilization that is not actively defending itself FROM Islam is giving in to Islam, there simply is no middle ground, no peaceful coexistence is possible with Islam.

Infiddle
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Quote Infiddle:

You need to "educate" yourself as to what the doctrines and ideology of Islam, and the example of the life of Muhammad say. As you say, every group, religious or atheist, will have those who use their beliefs in a way or combine them with politics in a way that results in them fighting or warring or killing. But what makes Islam absolutely unique is that it's founder, Muhammad was a warlord and he baked making war, Jihad war, right into the core doctrines of the religion/ideology from the very beginning. In fact, the Jihad war doctrines CANNOT be removed from Islam without making Islam something that it is NOT. Islam is Jihad, Jihad to impose Sharia, that is what Islam is. That is very very very different than some Christians misinterpreting the peaceful message of Christ or any other group distorting their beliefs to encourage war. Any person or civilization that is not actively defending itself FROM Islam is giving in to Islam, there simply is no middle ground, no peaceful coexistence is possible with Islam.

Most Christians dont do what their holy texts say. Same is true for Islam. So I repeat, education and generations would free us all. Most of the Islamic world was against the terrorism, until CON's took america into war against a country that did not attack us. Then sympathy increased a thousandfold for Bin Ladens side. Now here we are.

What is your solution? All I heard you say is how bad the other side is..

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bobbler
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

You can't risk the future of Western Civilization. of the West, of our countries, freedoms, lifestyles, future, on the naive and vain hope that all Muslims will forever NOT follow the texts of their religion or the example of Muhammad! We already see in the West where second generation Muslims revert to the true faith, rebelling against the watered down false faith of their Westernized parents, and engage in deadly violent Jihad in the example of Muhammad. The solution, the only solution, is to keep Islam out of the West.

Infiddle
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It feels like you are saying the combination of education and economic justice somehow puts western civilization at risk. Yes, I agree sometimes second generation chiildren polarize, and out of millions of people there are always a few willing to kill. But the third generation would be even less likely to kill. We are stuck with increased insecurity now for generations, because idiots took america to war, when they should have went aftrer Bin Laden (instead of corporate oil). (I am going off line til maybe tomorrow).

Quote Infiddle:

You can't risk the future of Western Civilization. of the West, of our countries, freedoms, lifestyles, future, on the naive and vain hope that all Muslims will forever NOT follow the texts of their religion or the example of Muhammad! We already see in the West where second generation Muslims revert to the true faith, rebelling against the watered down false faith of their Westernized parents, and engage in deadly violent Jihad in the example of Muhammad. The solution, the only solution, is to keep Islam out of the West.

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bobbler
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So I repeat, education and generations would free us all.

I would would wholeheartedly agree. Ironically that is what the Iraq and Afghanistan were/are about. Similar idea as to what happened in Germany and Japan after WWII. Looking back over the last 9 years though there is/was a modest amount of hubris in that thinking......

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Mr.Burns
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Fine for the long term.. What about the short term? How many deaths do we absorb? As for education, I don't believe it. The world is generally better educated today than ever before and look what we've got; a couple of generations of so-called intellectuals who've spent little or no time dealing hands on with the world's problems. The leaders of the Islamic extremists aren 't lower class, poverty ridden men. They are middle and upper class and tend to be rather well educated.

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cpp224
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"The world is generally better educated today than ever before and look what we've got; a couple of generations of so-called intellectuals who've spent little or no time dealing hands on with the world's problems." cpp

I would submit that what we have is choosing between schooled ignorance or unschooled stupidity. Billionaires spending millions of dollars to convince people of what isn't rather than what is has brought us to our current crisis. Teaching people that up is down may be profitable for those at the top....but it is the death knell for democracy. Which of course is the plan.

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First, Muhhamad never advocated anything other than self-defense. As to the terror threat, I see no reason to consider that it is considerably greater than it was pre 9/11. Even if 9/11 is accepted at face value there is no reason to believe it should have happened then or now. Most of the rest of our supposed domestic terror attempts are either offered to low lifes by law enforcement, or are done by those who probably do not have the capability to carry it out. Rarely do we here how much damage the bombs would have actually done.

cpp- brought up the question of how many lives must we lose. One might ask how many do we deserve to lose? I am not a proponent of the idea that Americans deserve to die in a retributive manner for their collective responsibility for the innocents that they kill on a worldwide basis, but I do not think the idea is somehow irrational either.

Also on this thread we here about the acid on innocent children and the like. This shit is the same old same old as painting the Islamic world with insane religous zealots whose lone motivation for heaven is to create the most grievous harm upon those who have the most innocence. The only difficulty I have with it is whether the perpertrators of such nonesense are motivated by rascism or the need of the great empire to have a great enemy. A clash of civilizations. Really?

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As bad as Christian Extremists are today, think about how terrible they were and how much death and destruction they wrought 600 years ago, for that is the major difference between these two religions. Christianity has merely had a 600 year head start in its reformation. With increased scientific discoveries and improved educational modalities....hopefully it won't take 600 years for Islam to be where Christianity is today. On second thought, I would hope that it would be in a much better place than Christianity is today.

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"First, Muhhamad never advocated anything other than self-defense."

The myth that warfare is only justified in Islam under the condition of self-defense is disproved by the account of the Battle of Badr, in which Muhammad sent his men out to raid caravans, then deliberately provoked a battle with the Meccan army sent out to defend them. The case for aggressive warfare is also supported by the fate of the three Jewish tribes of Medina, who were cleansed because they had rejected Muhammad’s claims of prophethood (and because the Muslims wanted their possessions).

much more at http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-self-defense.htm

Also, notice how EVERY SINGLE incident involving Muslims is ALWAYS cast in the light of a "response" to some provocation from the victims of the attack. This is ALWAYS the case, watch the news, it is remarkable that the western journalists fall for it. The very fact that you are not a Muslim is enough provocation for them to act in self defense of Islam whose goal is the eradication of all non-Muslims governments and religions. The slightest resistance to their demands (or "requests" as they are presented when the Muslims are still in the minority) is enough of a provocation for them to act in self defense of Islam, or of Muhammad - note the continued warring regarding the so-called cartoon controversy. The cartoons represent an ETERNAL incident for Muslims for ALL TIME to at any time and FOREVER attack any infidel as they are merely acting to "defend" Islam from the insults of the infidels involved however remotely.

Infiddle
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Jul. 15, 2010 1:40 pm

The primary motive for Islamic extermism is nationalism or pan nationalism. If we had choosen to occupy and manipulate a group of contiguous hindu or buddhist nations, I doubt that the reaction would look much different than we see with Islam. The instigator of extremism is financial. The financiers may come veiled with flags and gods, but do not be distracted from the real motive. Greed beats religion any day in the cause of misery and violence on this earth

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Death toll 9/11 3,000 ... Any successful attack since on the US? No. Death toll in Afghanistan and Iraq at least 300,000 with infrastructure in tatters and millions displaced. The occupation and invasion all since 9/11/01 and just another clear violation of Article II of the US Constitution in the name of war.

US attack in Yemen December 2009 killed dozens of people in their homes ... So-called underwear bomber in retaliation killed exactly none. Yet the MSM says zip about the former and the underwear bomber is used as an excuse to attack more Yemenis and to grope people in US airports - a clear violation of the 4th Amendment to the US Constitution.

How should Islam deal with a country (US) that attacks wedding parties with impunity killing dozens each time? What is the reason for the continued occupation of foreing countries and invasion of our underwear if not the worship of power (U-S-A U-S-A) and money (i.e. oil)?

Just the belief that the US has any shred of a right to attack people on the other side of an ocean and a continent (Atantic + Europe/Africa) seems to me to be almost a religion OF terrorism ...

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"Just the belief that the US has any shred of a right to attack people on the other side of an ocean and a continent (Atantic + Europe/Africa) seems to me to be almost a religion OF terrorism ..."

Well put.

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Quote Infiddle:

You need to "educate" yourself as to what the doctrines and ideology of Islam, and the example of the life of Muhammad say. As you say, every group, religious or atheist, will have those who use their beliefs in a way or combine them with politics in a way that results in them fighting or warring or killing. But what makes Islam absolutely unique is that it's founder, Muhammad was a warlord and he baked making war, Jihad war, right into the core doctrines of the religion/ideology from the very beginning. In fact, the Jihad war doctrines CANNOT be removed from Islam without making Islam something that it is NOT. Islam is Jihad, Jihad to impose Sharia, that is what Islam is. That is very very very different than some Christians misinterpreting the peaceful message of Christ or any other group distorting their beliefs to encourage war. Any person or civilization that is not actively defending itself FROM Islam is giving in to Islam, there simply is no middle ground, no peaceful coexistence is possible with Islam.

I think your ire is too selective. In my estimation, the phrase "religious terrorism" is redundant. All of the major religions use the threat of pain to achieve their political (ie., social structure) agendas. If you don't believe, praise and sacrifice to the right god, you will spend eternity in suffering. That, to me, is the oldest protection racket in the book.

Was Muhammad a war lord? Yes. Was Jesus ambiguously pacifist? Yes. Does it matter what founds the doctrine when the result is no different. NO. I would no more trust a christian to maintain peace as I would trust a scorpion to bandage my stings. Their very nature as religi-holics, in saying tootaloo to reality, makes them susceptible to outlandish suggestions, such as gather your neighbors, arm yourselves and attack some other group of people, somewhere, for disagreeing with you about the existence of this or that diety. It only makes sense if you're nuckin' futs.

So, while I agree that Islam is a threat to the future of humanity, I am also unable to exclude a number of other religions from the list of threats. Religion, when belief becomes considered a reality external to ourselves as individuals, invites insanity to prevail. When a christian says "Jesus loves you", that is an overt display of insanity, to claim to know the emotional state of a fantasy at worst or, at best, a dead person. What the person would say, if they were honest, is "I believe strongly in Jesus and I think your belief system is a piece of shit, by comparison", because that's what they mean. In most religious tradition, there is a shell of tolerance and peace with a core history of violence and divisiveness.

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Sounds like a new version of blame the other. As a non-christian I find those who accuse religion for all the worlds ills very short on proof for such innuendo. Lets face it, man has sucked in general. Why should his religion be any different?

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Quote mattnapa:

Sounds like a new version of blame the other. As a non-christian I find those who accuse religion for all the worlds ills very short on proof for such innuendo. Lets face it, man has sucked in general. Why should his religion be any different?

I agree, but if you are going to kill me to take something you want from me- though it will still be wrong- it is more understandable than killing me to satisfy an invisible spirit. One is tangible and the other is utterly fantastic. I would rather take my chances talking a greedy person out of mugging me than attempting to convince a "believer" that their god had a change of heart about me. Religion is a conversation stopper. I have much more faith in the charity of crooks than I do in the mercy of lunatics.

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Fair enough D-NATURED- But I would add that there can be a lot illusion within the tangible as well. Enemies that do not exist apply for the non-religous as well. People work their whole lives believing they are chasing the good life, and find nothing in the end.. Illusion and the tangible do not have the clear distinction for me that they do in yours, but I do understand the perspective

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The issue is cultural extremism and the parochial vision of us and them. It is not Islam or Christianity or any other of our current religions. Worship of Mars and Mammon was more specifically owned as War and Money. That is the religion of the empire, and those who are invaded and occupied use the religion of resistance and counter-identity to affirm their story against the invader.

Even Norske gets sucked into the need for an Islamic Reformation or Renaissance line of West is Best. Islamic nations were doing very well in modernization before the Neocon crusades, the continuation of the oil wars of empire and post-colonization. We could not just go for the oil unless we were bringing modern civilization and progress to the benighted. After all, we are not imperialists, we are Americans.

Norske knows the imperialism argument well enough, but the idea that Islam and the Arab States need to get into the modern era has a lot lacking. After the modern era, we may find a workable world. It will definitely be post modern rather than modern. And "post" will be different, not just what comes next.

Retaining a suspicion of usury is a good idea. Not accepting Barbie-Fem soft core as the best approach to sexuality and women has a very good case. There is not much about modern corporate architecture that adds aesthetic value to the cities it occupies. And we are far from energy efficiency or good community design.

Part of getting out of the illusion and dealing with American Century 'dry drunk" liberalism is to get over the superiority of the West meme. We bring more crap with that idea than boon.

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DRC
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RE: "The leaders of the Islamic extremists aren 't lower class, poverty ridden men."

There will always be power hungry nut jobs at any education level.. But a society that institutionalised core liberal values would remove the ability for these nut jobs to recruit people willing to kill and die for whatever reason the nut job says.. When people are educated, content, etc (have a job, and doest have to worry about losing their house, etc), they are much less likely to be willing to kill and die.. These people would have less hate in their hearts, and be thinking about putting their children thru school, or their next vacation, rather than whatever goes thru the minds of desperate poor peope with little education.. Althouigh I have no idea how to educate Islamics, since I dought they have separation of church and state like we do (should)..

Quote cpp224:

Fine for the long term.. What about the short term? How many deaths do we absorb? As for education, I don't believe it. The world is generally better educated today than ever before and look what we've got; a couple of generations of so-called intellectuals who've spent little or no time dealing hands on with the world's problems. The leaders of the Islamic extremists aren 't lower class, poverty ridden men. They are middle and upper class and tend to be rather well educated.

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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

The problem with the education strategy is that it also informs young people of the outrage they have been subjected to from the colonialists. Just as we recruit idealistic young warriors with ads of glory and virtue, they can appeal to their idealism and the highest value of laying down one's life for one's country, religion, family, etc. The threat is real. The outrages are outrageous. The call to duty and sacrifice does not need a lot of twisted religious fundamentalism to have an appeal to those whose minds are set in a more binary mode at this point in human development.

The image of the terrorist as the desperately poor and uneducated "dead enders" is not true. Many are professionals and highly educated. They see their education as a responsibility to serve, and martyrdom is not about throwing away their lives, it is about the highest meaning and purpose.

When we provide the Great Satan, the narrative of the militants gains credibility. Of course it would have been infinitely wiser to spend the money wasted on war doing things that would help people instead of killing them. The point of all of this is that they don't make us do it. We do it first most of the time and then we respond to their reaction with insanity. We are the Great Satan, the Evil Empire and not the projection of morality into the world. We are no different from other imperialists, no better and probably not a lot worse. We just have much more dangerous weapons.

We need an intervention to stop us from killing again.

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"Even Norske gets sucked into the need for an Islamic Reformation or Renaissance line of West is Best."

Actually I was merely comparing the actions of extremist Muslims of today with those of mainstream Christians of 600 years ago. The last thing I would wish for any culture is to become as superficial, greedy, and controllable as the "west" has become. I would not use the template of the "west" for anything to shoot for.

How would Christians be viewed today if they acted the same as they did 600 years ago?

I think that all religions are equally incomprehensible and equally susceptible to being used to control, manipulate, and enslave the citenzenry of their specific zeitgeist.

Still, whatever helps someone get through the day doesn't bother me as long as it does not affect me or impinge on the civil rights of others.

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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

At this point, I don't care who started it, I care who ends it. And, frankly, I don't have input for foreign countries. That means us here in the US are to be the ones to stop.

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Oct. 12, 2010 10:04 am

I dont doubt many are highly educated, but (I dont have it in my pocket right now) but I remember a statistic that higher educated people are less likely to be religious. Therefore less likely to be willing to kill and die.. While I agree there will still be highly educated nutballs out there, I say there will be less of them in the pool of nutballs (esp. so if were able to keep liberal ideals institutionalized for generations).

Quote DRC:

The image of the terrorist as the desperately poor and uneducated "dead enders" is not true. Many are professionals and highly educated. They see their education as a responsibility to serve, and martyrdom is not about throwing away their lives, it is about the highest meaning and purpose.

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My take on Jesus Loves You is to wonder how anyone could know what or who Jesus loves. I see the "Jesus Loves You," thing as aprt of an agressive proselytization meme. I try to word things positively, as in positive Atheism (thats my particular "non" religion). Because the lions share of my liberal friends are theists. And I would rather we atheists get along with others, while it is the fundies who become isolated. I would rather liberal groups unite, because we are too quick to isolate ourselves over minor, or inconsequential differences.

[/quote]

So, while I agree that Islam is a threat to the future of humanity, I am also unable to exclude a number of other religions from the list of threats. Religion, when belief becomes considered a reality external to ourselves as individuals, invites insanity to prevail. When a christian says "Jesus loves you", that is an overt display of insanity, to claim to know the emotional state of a fantasy at worst or, at best, a dead person. What the person would say, if they were honest, is "I believe strongly in Jesus and I think your belief system is a piece of shit, by comparison", because that's what they mean. In most religious tradition, there is a shell of tolerance and peace with a core history of violence and divisiveness.

[/quote]

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bobbler
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

bobbler, the point is to examine the texts of any religion or belief system and go from there. Not everyone who claims to follow any belief system will follow it as it is written but that has to be the starting point. The God of the Bible is presented as someone who loves each individual, so much that he sent his only son Jesus to earth to suffer in our place. Alternatively the god of the Koran is presented as a vengeful capricious murderous being who answers to no one and loves no one. The contrast is striking. So to the extent that one can appreciate that Jesus loves you, and it is true, Allah and Muhammad hate you, truly, deeply, and with a level of contempt that you are most likely not even capable of grasping, hate so deep that your mind is not capable of even hating that much, not even if someone murdered your whole family would you experience hate that great.

Infiddle
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Quote DRC:

The issue is cultural extremism and the parochial vision of us and them. It is not Islam or Christianity or any other of our current religions. Worship of Mars and Mammon was more specifically owned as War and Money. That is the religion of the empire, and those who are invaded and occupied use the religion of resistance and counter-identity to affirm their story against the invader.

Even Norske gets sucked into the need for an Islamic Reformation or Renaissance line of West is Best. Islamic nations were doing very well in modernization before the Neocon crusades, the continuation of the oil wars of empire and post-colonization. We could not just go for the oil unless we were bringing modern civilization and progress to the benighted. After all, we are not imperialists, we are Americans.

Norske knows the imperialism argument well enough, but the idea that Islam and the Arab States need to get into the modern era has a lot lacking. After the modern era, we may find a workable world. It will definitely be post modern rather than modern. And "post" will be different, not just what comes next.

Retaining a suspicion of usury is a good idea. Not accepting Barbie-Fem soft core as the best approach to sexuality and women has a very good case. There is not much about modern corporate architecture that adds aesthetic value to the cities it occupies. And we are far from energy efficiency or good community design.

Part of getting out of the illusion and dealing with American Century 'dry drunk" liberalism is to get over the superiority of the West meme. We bring more crap with that idea than boon.

But Americans have decided, it seems, that illusion is just as good as reality. In that respect, we're no better than a theocracy. Instead of insisting on real changes to PROVE our superiority, we are satisfied with the less labor intensive act of self-congratulating. Rather than have a society that can be objectively viewed by the rest of the world as one that works for people above any other, we just chant U-S-A U-S-A and talk about the power of pride...all bullshit!

If what we have going on in this country and, indeed, the west is sooooo superior to every other system, then why have our foreign policy decisions (Iraq, Afghanistan, Viet Nam, etc.) caused so much death and suffering? If our "freedom" is a model for the rest of the world, then why have our financial institutions caused so much poverty (ie., slavery)? These are questions that can only be ignored by a people who no longer care about reality.

So, going forward, if we don't start caring about reality we are doomed to be destroyed by our apathy towards it. If, though, we can re-establish our grasp on a human-centric, results oriented strategy for the future (like we briefly embraced in the fifties and sixties), we could again be an example of the superiority of the democratic way and won't have to chant anything to anyone because the RESULTS will be obvious to the world. Until then, we will be nothing but a nation of emperors whith nothing on but our egos.

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D_NATURED
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Oct. 20, 2010 7:47 pm

The problems we have with religion have less to do with "religion" itself; but rather mankind's constant predeliction towards embracing the greatest sin of all -- Pride, the father of all sins.

It's pride that causes people to turn against God's words contained in the Torah, Bible and Koran against all the sins of the world and those abominations resulting from our embrace of pride.

Pride leads us to kill, exploit, manipulate truths into half-truths and eventually pure lies. And it's pride that causes men and women to turn against their Creator and embrace Satan's lies which have resulted in untold miseries.

Religion, properly understood and applied allows us a framework of civilized behavior stemming from God's Truth. Think of religion much like we would highway safety rules and stop lights. Okay, that's a simplistic way of putting it. On the other hand, what purpose does it serve to overcomplicate some very obvious conclusions anybody can reach about the proper and Godly functions of "religion" to help us lead more moral, civilized and socially just lives.

Unfortunately, the overcomplication of these conclusions is always a result of PRIDE, in those all-too many instances where men and women have taken it upon themselves to add more to what our respective Books have been telling us for years. May Christ's Truth, and his loving example of the ultimate sacrifice and quest for a more just humanity be with everybody.

Steven.PBarrett
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Nov. 1, 2010 9:01 am
Quote Infiddle:

bobbler, the point is to examine the texts of any religion or belief system and go from there. Not everyone who claims to follow any belief system will follow it as it is written but that has to be the starting point.

Do you follow anything as it is written? I don't and won't. To do that is to become an automaton whose programming is in book form before being loaded into memory.

The God of the Bible is presented as someone who loves each individual, so much that he sent his only son Jesus to earth to suffer in our place.

I don't know about you, but I've suffered plenty in my life. Suffering 1, Jesus 0. Now, lets take a poll of the other six billion people and see if that has worked for ANYONE else. The god of the bible is the god of the old testament too, and His record is pretty violent, misogynistic and horrible.

Alternatively the god of the Koran is presented as a vengeful capricious murderous being who answers to no one and loves no one. The contrast is striking. So to the extent that one can appreciate that Jesus loves you, and it is true, Allah and Muhammad hate you, truly, deeply, and with a level of contempt that you are most likely not even capable of grasping, hate so deep that your mind is not capable of even hating that much, not even if someone murdered your whole family would you experience hate that great.

But Jesus loves me, huh? That must be why, if I don't jump through the right hoops, he'll send me to suffer for eternity. Is that right? Wow, what a lover that Jesus guy is [/sarc].

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D_NATURED
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Oct. 20, 2010 7:47 pm

dnatured, I didn't want to get into a big theological discussion, the point is not that Jesus came to suffer for us, but to die in our place. You are no doubt aware that all peoples have given sacrifices to their gods, normally animal or grain, this was no different for the Israelites in the OT. God sent Jesus to die as a final sacrifice for all. That doesn't mean we won't suffer in this life, that is life, but that when we face the Holy God who created us we won't have to be destroyed for failing to live up to His expectations, even though we fell short, we can rely on the sacrifice of Jesus who died in our place. Muhammad rejected Christ, he chose to go his own way, the way of the sword. Just like Muhammad you have an individual choice to make.

Infiddle
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Jul. 15, 2010 1:40 pm

Infiddle, as a Christian, I am offended by your insults toward other religions as if you defended a truly Christian perspective in this bigotry. I know that you share this terrible theology with a lot of others who love the Jesus brand, but I do not think you all read the Bible you keep posing with.

I have met and worked with far too many Muslims to accept your narrow reading and perspective on others. You see the splinter in the eye of the other, but not the log in your own. You wind up being the person the Bible portrays getting in the way of God, the prophets, Jesus and the Holy Spirit time after time. They are the ones who know who God does and does not accept.

Sorry, the Gospel is about something beyond religious brands in our human unity and ability to embrace the realities of our interdependence. I hope your reflection and spiritual growth will lead you closer to that Spirit.

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DRC
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

To drastically shorten the discussion, I am dead certain condemning all of Islam is not the answer.. Moving on please..

I am trying very hard to try to focus on something positive to do.. And I am trying not to throw out atheist axioms, but I really do believe if there were more atheists there would be less wars.. But this is not a solution..

Does the UN still exist? I would like to see some kind of peaceful coexistance happen before the fundys get control of nuclear weapons (which I fear is close; months or years.. probably not decades)..

Perhaps if America would stop dropping so many bombs, cooler heads might prevail in the muslim world.. Rather then the fundy counterparts in the muslim world, to the fundy Christians in the Christian world, that want eternal war..

Disclaimer: I realize not all fundys want war, so I am referring to the warmongers (Commandment One be dammed)..

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bobbler
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Moses went up the Mountain and got the Ten Commandments directly from God. He broke the tablets when he saw his people carousing and worshiping idols. They put the broken pieces of the tablets into the Ark of the Covenent and continued to march into Canaan and proceeded to slaughter everyone and everything in their way. The idea was to spread terror far and wide. When Joshua tore down the walls of Jericho they killed every person, livestock, pet, everything. In Jerusalem, David sent one of his military commanders, Uriah, out into to battle to be killed so he could steal his wife Bathsheba.

This all happened while the Israelites still had the tablets directly from God that said thou shalt not kill and thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife. Why couldn't the very people who received the Commandments directly from God obey them?

I still can't get over the fact that here in 2011 so many otherwise intelligent people still think babies are born into sin because 6,000 years ago a talking snake convinced Eve (who was made from the rib of a man, ahem) to eat an apple from the tree of knowledge. This original sin is, of course, why God had to become a man and live and die to absolve us all of that snake's evil. Hmm, sounds like people should have just continued believing in Zeuss, Poseidon, Achilles, unicorns, and other mythological creatures. The universe is 28 billion light years across, that we know of, and God, the creator of it all, had to take time out for 33 years and come to this one little backwater planet to straighten us out? Who was minding the rest of the universe while God was here?

God can be discovered through experiencing God's creation, not from reading old gossip and myths. Religion is a crutch for the spiritually infirm.

Scrap institutionalized religion should be the first commandment. Or as an older bumper sticker said. Lord please protect me from your followers.

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Choco
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

I am not particullarly interested in deconstructing infiddle's assertions about the evil nature of Islam, nor am I especially interested in how to get out of this supposed clash of cultures. My only point is that the threat is either manufactured or hallucinated. Even if a significant amount of the Islamic world is hellbent on our destruction, I see very little evidence they have an ability to do anything. Of course this has the caveat that we actually are tryting to defend ourselves. If it is that bad let's close our borders to all muslims. I find that preferable to attacking their countries

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mattnapa
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote Steven.PBarrett:

The problems we have with religion have less to do with "religion" itself; but rather mankind's constant predeliction towards embracing the greatest sin of all -- Pride, the father of all sins.

With all due respect, that is a simplistic analysis of the "problem" with religion. Religions are invented by people and if there is a problem with them, it is not pride but faulty craftsmanship that is the problem.

It's pride that causes people to turn against God's words contained in the Torah, Bible and Koran against all the sins of the world and those abominations resulting from our embrace of pride.

Someone declaring that a book is "god's word" does not make it so. Furthermore, I disagree that it is pride that makes me seriously doubt-enough to completely ignore-the doctrine of the Abrahamic religions. They all conflict with each other in word and deed, so to claim that they share an author is to diagnose your diety with severe schizophrenia.

Pride leads us to kill, exploit, manipulate truths into half-truths and eventually pure lies. And it's pride that causes men and women to turn against their Creator and embrace Satan's lies which have resulted in untold miseries.

So, you're saying pride prevents people from properly interpreting the various holy texts? Have you heard of Achem's razor? Wouldn't it be a simpler explanation to say that people are animals with desires, lusts and agendas of personal gratification? Can't we leave evil spirits out of the equation and just take responsibility for the fact that we're imperfect?

Religion, properly understood and applied allows us a framework of civilized behavior stemming from God's Truth. Think of religion much like we would highway safety rules and stop lights. Okay, that's a simplistic way of putting it. On the other hand, what purpose does it serve to overcomplicate some very obvious conclusions anybody can reach about the proper and Godly functions of "religion" to help us lead more moral, civilized and socially just lives.

I disagree that we even need the idea of an external god to give us direction. The golden rule, though adopted by a number of religions, is not theirs to claim for their god. It is the most easily understood model of social behavior ever articulated. Any child can understand it and any adult can struggle mightily to try to live it.

Unfortunately, the overcomplication of these conclusions is always a result of PRIDE, in those all-too many instances where men and women have taken it upon themselves to add more to what our respective Books have been telling us for years. May Christ's Truth, and his loving example of the ultimate sacrifice and quest for a more just humanity be with everybody.

Yes, and may the flying spaghetti monster bless you with noodley love. I'm sorry, I don't want to mock your heart-felt wish for humanity but you must understand how arrogant it is to tell someone that they are better off following the example of your particular delusion. The loving example of Jesus is "you can't fight city hall". His words have no more created a paradise of love than the words of Muhammad have, and they never will.

Belivers are fond of saying "god works through men". Well, that's obvious that the ideas that exist in men's minds can effect none other without them acting. That is true for all belief systems. So, all niceties aside, I judge "Christ's truth" by the actions of his followers. When they preach against condom use to Africans in the midst of an AIDS epidemic, I'm guessing his "truth" is not to care about the results of our actions. His "truth" is a feather in the wind that can be pulled in whatever direction the political or social breeze is blowing without any need to consider results. It is empty rhetoric when there is no predictable benefit to derive from it's use. Now, that's not pride's fault. That's the fault of people who are great at telling others what's best without ever having to prove it works. That's religion.

D_NATURED's picture
D_NATURED
Joined:
Oct. 20, 2010 7:47 pm
Quote mattnapa:

I am not particullarly interested in deconstructing infiddle's assertions about the evil nature of Islam, nor am I especially interested in how to get out of this supposed clash of cultures. My only point is that the threat is either manufactured or hallucinated. Even if a significant amount of the Islamic world is hellbent on our destruction, I see very little evidence they have an ability to do anything. Of course this has the caveat that we actually are tryting to defend ourselves. If it is that bad let's close our borders to all muslims. I find that preferable to attacking their countries

I posted that I believe it is virtually certain Al-Queda (or like groups) will have control of nuclear weapons in the near future (because of the irresponsible/criminal actions of the BUSH-2 admin; doing exactly what Bin Laden wanted).. I agree it is a waste of time to disect the religious/jesus posts, or the Islamic hater posts, because I believe no amount of facts will make these people pause to even think.. Meanwhile, the list blows up, and looking ofr a proactive solution flys out the window.

I strongly disagree we should bar muslims from entering our borders, because probably most of these people are fleeing Al-Queda. I strongly believe muslims are our best protection against nuclear weapons going off on american soil. It is not anywhere near practical to ban all muslims in America.. As I posted exhaustively, making friends (instead of war) is what will save us.. Becuase when (not if) the muslims get nuclear power, cooler heads may prevail politically in the Islamic world (ove rthe use of these nuclear weapons).. Keep voting for Republicans (and blue dog Dems) and we will continue to drop bombs, styirring up the proverbial hornets nest (soon to have nuclear bombs.. the same ones Bush2 knowingly lied about to start the last war)..

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bobbler
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

You can't kill people and tell them it's for their own good. They won't buy it for long. If we had spent as much money on trying to bring security to the countrys of Iraq/Afghanistan as we have to destroy them, we wouldn't have to worry about Al Qeida.

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D_NATURED
Joined:
Oct. 20, 2010 7:47 pm

Currently Chatting

The other way we're subsidizing Walmart...

Most of us know how taxpayers subsidize Walmart's low wages with billions of dollars in Medicaid, food stamps, and other financial assistance for workers. But, did you know that we're also subsidizing the retail giant by paying the cost of their environmental destruction.

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