WTF Have Unions Done So Far?

30 posts / 0 new

This is a great site that is right on par with what Thom has been pushing in regards to unions on the show. I'd love for him to mention it and really get out the message.

www.whatthefuckhaveunionsdonesofar.com

PacMenDotOrg's picture
PacMenDotOrg
Joined:
Mar. 3, 2011 4:59 am

Comments

What you should have posted. whatthefuckhaveunionsdonelately. Of course that would be a much short presentation. 1. bankrupt states.

Al'Thor's picture
Al'Thor
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 10:56 am

The banksters have a union? I did not know that. Nobody but they and their cohort Kochheads are responsible for the state's financial problems. The last people to accuse are the people work for average Middle Class salaries and do really good and valuable work. You need to get your head out of wherever your eyes are seeing what you think is reality. Follow the money.

DRC's picture
DRC
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote DRC:

The banksters have a union? I did not know that. Nobody but they and their cohort Kochheads are responsible for the state's financial problems. The last people to accuse are the people work for average Middle Class salaries and do really good and valuable work. You need to get your head out of wherever your eyes are seeing what you think is reality. Follow the money.

You said you were in oregon. How far in the hole is the Oregon PERS system? 18-20 Billion? The 106% retirement benefit. The guarantee 8% + return. lovely... Must have been those damn Koch brothers booggiemen

Al'Thor's picture
Al'Thor
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 10:56 am

The corporates and businesses have representation (union) called "The Chamber of Commerce."

As an employee, you better make sure you have as loud of a voice and deep pockets supporting your rights as a laborer. The fact is, employers are well aware that there are thousands of people whom would do anything just to get YOUR job. At this time in America, those whom have the most money have the loudest voice and the bully pulpit. While I am aware that there are some "issues" with the way unions conduct some of their business, it is upmost importance to recognize that without that platform, we as workers of America will lose the one and only chance/voice we have against diminishing our human rights, safety and job security. I can tell you from my own experience that few union members actually participate in union meetings, so there are a lot of problems not being addressed. But to strip workers rights and dismantle unions is like "cutting off one's nose in spite one's face."

Concerning your statement Al' Thor, "Unions have bankrupted states," the facts prove otherwise. What bankrupted states is the outsourcing of jobs (thus losing revenue), due to corporates wanting much larger profit margins. That path led to the demise of the middle class, so the main source of revenue becomes the burden on the working poor. Add the tax breaks and tax loop holes (that an ordinary worker dreams of) for corporates/wealthy, plus let us not forget the taxpayers subsidies (welfare) to those corporations. These policies are to blame for inability to balance the budget. Now if that cup was not full enough, we had to have two wars, which is paid for by our limited tax revenue, while a handful of corporations make unbelievable profits in these wars. So, we as workers not only have the increased burden of taxes on our wages, we pay as well in human costs. Privately hired soldiers get 3 to 4 time more pay from our tax dollars than one whom goes for the patriotic reasons. This policy is more costly to the taxpayer and abhorrently unjust.

So why is it, that the workers rights are being undermined and the tax deficit burden placed solely on those whom labor? Why are people targeting the people whom have the least, and in the same breath continuing the practice of rewarding the wealthy, those whom can afford to help this struggling economy? As I stated previously, corporate owned and sponsored "news" has the bully pulpit, and they have so many people believing and convinced it is the workers fault. Criminals are really good at convincing a victim they deserved what has happened to them. As Thom had said, the strategy of "divide and conquer" has been an extremely effective tactic throughout history, and is very much alive and well today.

Penny Ryan
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote Al'Thor:
Quote DRC:

The banksters have a union? I did not know that. Nobody but they and their cohort Kochheads are responsible for the state's financial problems. The last people to accuse are the people work for average Middle Class salaries and do really good and valuable work. You need to get your head out of wherever your eyes are seeing what you think is reality. Follow the money.

You said you were in oregon. How far in the hole is the Oregon PERS system? 18-20 Billion? The 106% retirement benefit. The guarantee 8% + return. lovely... Must have been those damn Koch brothers booggiemen

How much would it have been in the hole without the Bankster defrauding? Answer me that.

downix's picture
downix
Joined:
Oct. 12, 2010 10:04 am

First off - I need someone to differentiate a "laborer" from an "employee" because, before now, I've never comprehended a difference.

bonnie
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote Al'Thor:
Quote DRC:

The banksters have a union? I did not know that. Nobody but they and their cohort Kochheads are responsible for the state's financial problems. The last people to accuse are the people work for average Middle Class salaries and do really good and valuable work. You need to get your head out of wherever your eyes are seeing what you think is reality. Follow the money.

You said you were in oregon. How far in the hole is the Oregon PERS system? 18-20 Billion? The 106% retirement benefit. The guarantee 8% + return. lovely... Must have been those damn Koch brothers booggiemen

So, how much of that pension was invested in Lehman Bros, Enron, WorldComm and CountryWide? How much of the pension was tied to CDO's directly and indirectly? How much of that pension hole is caused by the wider market meltdown that surrounded the Bush's Great Recession?

Phaedrus76's picture
Phaedrus76
Joined:
Sep. 14, 2010 7:21 pm

Beating up on the "generous" PERS benefits, totally deferred compensation and in lieu of salary increases because the State asked for the immediate fiscal help, is typical con-servitude policy. How dare the workers have contracts they think are enforceable, but don't touch those billionaire bankster bonuses because they are contracts. And you have to keep the talent that drove us off the cliff. Anyone can teach.

We now have a two tier benefit system, and while my dear spouse got hired in the last days of the old tier, I am not retiring with her. Better than crumbs, but not the lap of luxury, and a lot of that has to do with Oregon being bottom fifth in higher ed funding for a long time. Keeping the talent in higher education does not become a reason to pay competitively.

If anything, the PERS benefits represent a great return for little money. It is deferred compensation, meaning the state was able to delay coming up with the cash. We cannot help it if the business lobby has made Oregon run on payday loans from PERS instead of a responsible tax base. They had a fiduciary responsibility to manage our money conservatively as befits a pension fund. Or, they needed to cover their bets. It was not THEIR money.

Going two tier sucked. Then there is the insult to injury in the furlough days and no step salary increase. We will always have her pension calculated without a deserved salary increase because of a "temporary" concession.

While crooks and lucky free riders made big bucks from the bubble up economy, we got nothing but the squeeze of an underfunded university system. The worst inefficiencies come from the poverty thinking of the Right where great investments are not capitalized to real effectiveness. Making tuition very expensive does not help students become the economic engines of higher education. It binds their vocational choices to their debts.

The Mississippi Model for economic success has never worked for the people. The old Lords of the Manor do well on the Plantation, but educating the serfs could put ideas in their heads. Like pensions. It is time to address revenue and require those with money to participate in the "shared pain."

DRC's picture
DRC
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote downix:

[quote=Al'Thor]

How much would it have been in the hole without the Bankster defrauding? Answer me that.

18-20 billion

Al'Thor's picture
Al'Thor
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 10:56 am
Quote Phaedrus76:

[quote=Al'Thor]

So, how much of that pension was invested in Lehman Bros, Enron, WorldComm and CountryWide? How much of the pension was tied to CDO's directly and indirectly? How much of that pension hole is caused by the wider market meltdown that surrounded the Bush's Great Recession?

LOL..

Al'Thor's picture
Al'Thor
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 10:56 am
Quote bonnie:

First off - I need someone to differentiate a "laborer" from an "employee" because, before now, I've never comprehended a difference.

They are one and the same. If the bulk of your income comes from a wage/salary, you're a worker. Even a lot of physicians today are now members of the working class. Many don't seem to understand that.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

polycarp2
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Folks, you can't argue with someone who sees no wrong in their corporatist ways. Conservative pundits go through great measures to alter facts and find any way possible to convince the public that liberalism is the reason for our economic problems. We need to move away from debate, which is a system whereby either side argues the merits of the side they are given regardless of facts. Debate encourages deciet and uses tactics such as tonality, condescention, and self assuredness even in the face of truth, to convince the viewers (not the opponent) that he/she is correct.

We need to first discuss what the facts are, then encourage a civil conversation and shun those who insist on being correct when the facts show them as wrong. Debate is destroying this country; we need fact based conversations and open discussions....

Barbazza's picture
Barbazza
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

"Debate encourages deciet and uses tactics such as tonality, condescention, and self assuredness even in the face of truth, to convince the viewers (not the opponent) that he/she is correct." Barbazza

Exactly....which is why I rarely engage in debate with the extreme right and rarer still with libertarians....it's a fools errand. I learn much more in discussions with other progressives with whom I may disagree with than in attempting to have an honest debate with those on the right.

norske's picture
norske
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

I would like to think there are people on a fence and not sure of how they feel. This maybe "ideology," but I do know from my experiences of people whom repeat a point of argument they had heard, without thinking it all the way through. And sometimes just taking the time to explain in depth why that reasoning has faults, it can sometimes help them to see the full spectrum of why that stance does not hold up.

I agree facts do help but even at that, an extremist will argue the credibility of those facts based on the source. I have encountered many hostile responses in this political environment and even had fear for my life in some situations. But I cannot sit back, in good conscience, and let misinformation and outright lies take over the conversation without trying to find that one audience member that uses reasoning. They are out there but many are afraid to speak. Possibly it is due to ridicule, hostility, being alone in their thinking or maybe just because they prefer the sidelines. But I have found sometimes a voice of reason is all some people need.

"To sin by silence when the should protest makes cowards of men." Abraham Lincoln

Penny Ryan
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

If only life was as simple as “they don’t agree with the facts I believe, therefore they must be dishonest and have evil motives”. Facts are useless without the context in which they were derived. So, who then becomes the arbitrator of what is and is not a Fact and it importance to the topic. You, Me, the Left, the Right. A fact is nothing more than 1 block on a scale in which your own perception, biases and character will apply the weight to that block and on which side of the scale it will rest on. Any given topic could have hundreds of blocks both in favor and against a position that will help determine you own position. Unless of course your partisanship block weights 100 pounds and all other facts are a grain of sand.

Not to suggest anyone here is so blindly myopic as to refuse the acknowledgement of any particular facts merely by political leaning.

Al'Thor's picture
Al'Thor
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 10:56 am
Quote Al'Thor:

If only life was as simple as “they don’t agree with the facts I believe, therefore they must be dishonest and have evil motives”. Facts are useless without the context in which they were derived. So, who then becomes the arbitrator of what is and is not a Fact and it importance to the topic. You, Me, the Left, the Right. A fact is nothing more than 1 block on a scale in which your own perception, biases and character will apply the weight to that block and on which side of the scale it will rest on. Any given topic could have hundreds of blocks both in favor and against a position that will help determine you own position. Unless of course your partisanship block weights 100 pounds and all other facts are a grain of sand.

Not to suggest anyone here is so blindly myopic as to refuse the acknowledgement of any particular facts merely by political leaning.

Oh dear, Mr "Fact" man has weaseled his way back onto the board.

Just a little reminder, just because one is proficient at cutting and pasting words onto a Message Board, does NOT make it fact.

meljomur's picture
meljomur
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Unions have done terrible things!. Reducing the work week to 40 hours from 76 hours and eliminating child labor from coal mines are probably among the worst....depending on your point of view.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

polycarp2
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

@polycarp2 I love you're bringing this discussion back to where it belongs.

What have Unions done so far?

Here are just two examples that show the hypocrisy of the republicans and the anti-union platforms;

Republicans say Social Security should never be the bases for your retirement and people should invest savings into a retirement plan. That action was taken by the unions, (whatever were they thinking)? And unfortunately due to deregulations of the markets, a whole lot of people lost those retirements. I see this "scenario" is still being encouraged by many politicians, but the regulations we have now, are still not strong enough to prevent another robbery of investments. When I get letters from my local representatives encouraging me to endorse retirement investment in the stock markets, I write back explaining why people have every reason for reacting with contempt and reservations, as that money did not just disappear into thin air, it lined someone's pockets. Without strong and adhered to regulations, its like repeating the same mistake over and over again, expecting different results.

Republicans state healthcare should be a paid for privilege. Healthcare insurance was addressed and became possible through the Unions efforts.

"Retired Monk-'Ideology is a disease'" has given me many hours to contemplate that thought...

Penny Ryan
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Definition of FACT: A thing that is indisputably the case. A piece of information used as evidence.

Example:

A Gallop Poll that was recently taken, in which people were asked about how they felt with Scott Walkers position of eliminating collective bargaining rights.

Fox "news" STATED and CHARTED the poll as reading; 61% were FOR the elimination of collective bargaining rights, 33% AGAINST and 6% undecided.

The ACTUAL Gallop Poll numbers; 61% were AGAINST the elimination of collective bargaining rights, 33% FOR and 6% undecided.

The FACT is Fox "news" LIED. That is outright deception. I have heard many proclaim these deceptions as "only" misinformation, like that is acceptable. But the definition of misinformation; false or inaccurate information, that which is deliberately intended to deceive. This is just one of many examples that I am aware of, why fox "news" reinforces they have no credibility, nor authenticity. I hope people start recognizing this program is NOT a reliable NEWS source and stop using fox "facts".

NOTE: Whether or not you agree with how the poll was taken, that does not change the FACT of the actual poll numbers.

Penny Ryan
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Isn't it also a "fact" that Fox acknowledged the reversal, reiterated what the correct numbers were, and apologized before the end of the broadcast?

So what do the "facts" indicate? Was it a lie or a mistake? As Al’Thor has shown, the answer depends on whether one is mired in ideology or neutral.

Paleo-con
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Paleo, I am pretty sure most of us here tune out when we see the word fact and Fox in the same sentence.

meljomur's picture
meljomur
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

FACT: Dan Rather was fired for what was claimed "misinformation".

FACT: Fox 'news" STATED and CHARTED, giving them two avenues for checking the FACTS of the ACTUAL poll numbers.

While I was unaware Fox had acknowledged and apologized on the same broadcast, I had encountered several Fox "news" advocates whom repeated the same misinformed polled numbers, in their zeal for eliminating collective bargaining rights for workers. Sadly, a lot of people whom watch Fox "news," that label "news" gives some people reasons to think it is worthy of repeating and sells them on false information. If this was an isolated incident I may have overlooked it, but that is not the case.

While I stand by our Constitution right for The Freedom of Speech, I do think when labeled "News" it must contain fact bearing content. And as such it is their duty to check and re-check for accuracy, before they broadcast.

Penny Ryan
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote Penny Ryan:

FACT: Dan Rather was fired for what was claimed "misinformation".

FACT: Fox 'news" STATED and CHARTED, giving them two avenues for checking the FACTS of the ACTUAL poll numbers.

The difference is that Rather stuck to his story even after admitting that the source documents were indeed misinformation. Fox changed their story and apologized after admitting they provided misinformation.

Quote Penny Ryan:

While I was unaware Fox had acknowledged and apologized on the same broadcast, I had encountered several Fox "news" advocates whom repeated the same misinformed polled numbers, in their zeal for eliminating collective bargaining rights for workers. Sadly, a lot of people whom watch Fox "news," that label "news" gives some people reasons to think it is worthy of repeating and sells them on false information. If this was an isolated incident I may have overlooked it, but that is not the case.

Yes, there are wing nuts on every side of the political spectrum. I try to ignore the right wing nuts as much as I ignore the left wing nuts. Keep in mind that the Fox News channel provides both news and opinion. Their "news" broadcasts are very much news and worthy of repeating. There is a reason they are the most watched news source. Their opinion broadcast, like Hannity and Beck, are far from news and tend to only be repeated by likeminded birds of the feather.

Quote Penny Ryan:

While I stand by our Constitution right for The Freedom of Speech, I do think when labeled "News" it must contain fact bearing content. And as such it is their duty to check and re-check for accuracy, before they broadcast.

Agreed. The problem arises from defining the word "fact". When the news says sunrise was at 7:42 this morning; that is a quantifiable fact. When the news says Obama saved the economy, the facts become much harder to quantify.

Paleo-con
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Fact. Dan Rather was correct on the facts, but the particular document planted on him was not good evidence. He stuck to the correct story, but he was hounded out by people who don't want journalism reporting their shit.

In the case of FAUX and its "corrections," the technique is to put out the lie in the "news" and do the correction in the footnotes. It is tried and true for propaganda, which is why real journalism has much higher standards than this.

FAUX regularly uses stock film to up the ante on protest and give the impression that the Left is very angry and violent. Projecting their own ills on the other side is the name of this game. It is both a psychological pathology and standard operating Rove procedure.

It is not an ideological difference that explains FAUX lack of journalistic integrity. It is not just what I see because I disagree with them. They have to lie because the truth indicts them. Just the facts. We can disagree about opinion.

DRC's picture
DRC
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

@Paleo-con "Obama saved the economy" is not a FACT by it's very own definition. That example is pure conjecture and very much subjective.

How "WORTHY" is a "news" program when you have people repeat false poll number's they had heard, even if it was disclaimed it later? "Worth repeating"? Yes, if you want to lose credibility on the validity of the issues and your arguments are based on opinions.

FACT: Fox is not named "News and Opinion" they are titled; "Fox News".

Penny Ryan
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

WTF have unions done for me lately? Those thugs provided me $500/week disability after my sweetheart Republican boss of 10 years layed me off once I was diagnosed w/ cancer. Guess he couldn't be burdened with adjusting my schedule around chemo and radiation treatments. Those commies at the union then had the audacity to pay the several hundred thousand dollars worth of medical bills. All is well now and I've since opened my own UNION business and pay my union benefits and taxes with a deep satisfaction. I hear my old boss is having a tough time these days but I wish him no ill. God bless Unions!!!

Laborisgood's picture
Laborisgood
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

I have always believed giving credit where credit is due. This Fox "news" piece is one of those times.

Watching Uproar Over Wisconsin Protests, It is Time to Remember How Unions Make Our Lives Better - FoxNews.com

Thank-You Sally Kohn @ Fox.

Penny Ryan
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Fox: The "news" that has gone to Court, to deffend its rignt to lie.

Yammerman
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote Yammerman:

Fox: The "news" that has gone to Court, to deffend its rignt to lie.

Wait. What!?

Fox News is lying about the positive contributions about unions to better appeal to their viewership?

Toonces's picture
Toonces
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Currently Chatting

The Death of the Middle Class was by Design...

Even in the face of the so-called Recovery, poverty and inequality are getting worse in our country, and more wealth and power is flowing straight to the top. According to Paul Buchheit over at Alternet, this is the end result of winner-take-all capitalism, and this destruction of the working class has all been by design.

Powered by Drupal, an open source content management system