Why don't we ask Israel to follow Gandhi and King?

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Siimple question.

cgb9001's picture
cgb9001
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They weren't in the market for endless supplies of military hardware. We pay lip service to peaceniks, but arms customers pay us handsomely.

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Laborisgood
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

I have lots and lots of questions.

Why doesn't anyone realize that there are 1 million Arabs living peacefully in Israel?

Why don't these Arabs want to emigrate to Arab countries?

If Israel has all of these Arab citizens why wouldn't a Palestinian state have Jewish citizens, and why can't they settle in the West Bank and Gaza?

How did "Palestinian" become a nationality?

When did "Palestinian" become a nationality?

Why isn't Jordan the Paletinian state?

Why don't Jordan or Egypt want the West Bank or Gaza back?

How did Yasser Arafat, born in Egypt of Egyptian parents before there even was an Israel, become a "Palestinian?"

Since Isreal was largely unpopulated in 1947, how did there get to be so many of these "Palestinians" over the years?

Why does a ceasefire line, after Israel was attacked, have some kind of efficacy?

Why don't Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon have contribute land to the "Palestinians?"

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Rosenthal
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Actually it wasn't largely unpopulated pre '47.

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douglaslee
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Actually 1.5 million people, mostly in Jerusalem if I understand it correctly = largely unpopulated.

What about my other questions? I am especially interested to know why everyone fails to understand that 1/6 of Israeli citizens are Arabs. Further a large number of Jews in Israel emigrated from Arab countries where they were brutally persecuted. And, as we all know, Arabs have been pretty busy warring with and persecuting other Arabs.That's a big reason why we're seeing Arab populations rising up against their governments.

So what's the bigger picture here?

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Rosenthal
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

They are all excellent questions Rosenthal. The fact that douglaslee cannot answer any of them and can only point to statistics showing the exponential increase of Arabs in both percentage and number since 1967, thus invalidating the leftist "genocide" meme, speaks volumes.

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Calperson
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Dec. 11, 2010 9:21 am

I am quite aware of the Mizrahi in Israel, I was just talking about population.

Racism is so embedded in Israel’s social fabric that it resists any rationalization. In We Look Like the Enemy, Guardian contributor Rachel Shabi presents this picture without rose-colored glasses. Time and again, we learn from her of accounts of Ashkenazi reports that the Arab Jew is primitive, opportunistic, lowly, weird and scary (the latter was in the case of the Yemenite Jews), totally ignorant, incapable of being spiritual, savage with primitive instincts. Mizrahi Jews were considered a blemish. The Mizrahim, it was feared, could lead Israel to be viewed as non-white, as un-European.

What exactly happened to Jews from Arab lands who went to Israel, whose motivation was purely spiritual? Shabi explains how Mizrahi Jews were taken to transit camps when they were brought to Israel. Their hosts ensured that they would be driven to their new homes during the night so as not to see the conditions in which they were to live. They felt confused, disoriented and disappointed. They were housed on borders shared with Arab countries, in development towns in Israel’s south:

“Sderot is one of twenty-seven officially termed ‘development towns’, founded between 1952 and 1964 to absorb migrants during that period. Those towns are nearly always peripheral; Sderot and Ofakim in the Negev desert in the South; Kiryat Shmona bordering Lebanon to the north; Bet She’an located close to the eastern border of the West Bank. They were created as part of a government policy of population dispersal. Just after 1948, most Israelis were based in the big cities of Haifa, Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, which left vast stretches of empty land in the new state. By the early fifties, there was mounting international concern, voiced through the United Nations, that Israel do something about the 711,000 (UN figure) Palestinians made refugees during the 1948 war. Israel sought to settle its newly won ground. Perhaps also a factor was a post-World War II consciousness over not centralizing populations too much. With the Jews of North Africa in mind, the Israeli government launched Operation from the Boat to the Town, whereby immigrants would be taken straight from the transporting vessels to the areas marked as development-towns-to-be. They wouldn’t be given a choice of where to go; that decision had already been made for them by the Jewish Agency”.

Without knowing perhaps, the new immigrants acted as a buffer between the ‘savage’ Arabs, and the ‘civilized’ European Jews. Another element which distinguished them from the Ashkenazim was that they were viewed as refugees rather than pioneers.

Mizrahis were poorer and by default, trained to fail. They did not attend the same schools as the Ashkenazim. ‘Making it’ was tantamount to graduating into a vocational school of some sort. Diaspora Jews were referred to as ‘hunchbacks’, and it was the Ashkenazi’s duty to straighten their backs with honest to goodness labor. In the superior Ashkenazi mind, the new Oriental Jews were good enough to take the place of the Arabs. When one is constantly and consistently separate, shunned as an equal, it is natural that one will begin to internalize the negative stereotyping of him/herself and begin to share it. Why is it that the majority of people in Israeli prisons are either Arab or Mizrahi?

Thus, we hear from Shabi of a Sephardi woman who portrayed herself for many years as an Ashkenazi, only to break down in her later years and bemoan the culture she had lost.

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douglaslee
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Trying to start something cal? I read the authors's interview on The Forward, this site also covers it.

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douglaslee
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Quote Rosenthal:

I have lots and lots of questions.

Boy, you ain't kidding. I'm not even gonna try to answer all of them, but I do see an overarching theme that relates to most of your questions.

Israel is a nice place to live. Jobs, food, water, housing, education and climate to boot. Kinda like Texas with a little terrorism mixed in. Many Arabs would prefer to live there than some of the other choices in the region in spite of the deep seated ethnic/cultural/religious animosity.

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Quote Laborisgood:Many Arabs would prefer to live there than some of the other choices in the region in spite of the deep seated ethnic/cultural/religious animosity.

If I have an over arching theme it is that the problem is not as simple as "big bad Israel, good Palestinians." It isn't Apartheid. The problems here are more profound and the problems extend to the whole of the Middle East. In fact most of the hatred in the region does not involve Jews or Israel and the West bears a substantial share of the blame because of the way the Great Powers handled things after the fall of the Ottomans.

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Quote douglaslee:

I am quite aware of the Mizrahi in Israel, I was just talking about population.

I have a lot of Israeli friends, many of whom are Sephardic. I have asked them about this. Invariably they acknowledge some issues but not nearly to the extent that is suggested by sources such as yours.

That's not scientific but I trust my Israeli friends more than I trust your source. And if things were really as horrific and unjust as you suggest it would seem to me that Israel, with so many external enemies, would be at least as bad of a basket case as its neighbors. However it isn't.

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I've read and heard a great deal about the 'plight of the Mizrahis' in Israel -- some portion of which is likely exaggerated, but some not. The worst example had to do with in-Israel mistreatment of and lethal irradiation and other experimentation upon Mizrahis children, some considered 'mentally-challenged'. But, there are worse examples, by far, of neutering and institutionalizing/imprisoning and rather horrid medical experimentation upon minorities, the incarcerated, and 'challenged' people in the US -- the latter, notably, victims of Rockefeller-funded 'eugenicist/biosocialist'-movements, pre-WW2, and primarily in Southern-states, and in England/Germany. [I think it was Dr. Chaim Sheba or Shebe, in 1951 and under Peres with US funding, who experimented on those several-thousand Mizrahis children?]

But, it's just wrong/simplistic to characterize Mizrahis as universally discriminated against and/or unwelcome in Israel. Not long ago [and with donated funds], Israel offered more than $10,000/US plus expenses/land/housing-aid (presumably in newer West Bank settlements) to any/all of the many-thousands of Mizrahis/Jews living in Iran if they would consent to immigrate to Israel. Few, if any, accepted -- instead they very publicly reaffirmed their loyalty to Iran, where their community (largest in the mid-east aside from Israel) has lived and integrated successfully, dating back to at least 600 BC. One such Mizrahis, Morris Motamed, was a Jew who was elected to Iran's Parliament. He said the offer was "insulting" and a failed "bribe". Apparently, most Jews in Iran feel comfortable there, and are quite critical of Israel, including politically. I'm unsure, but perhaps they believe (like many others of Orthodox Jewry), that Israel 'jumped the gun' with Statehood/Return prior to 'true-Messiah'? [Perhaps not, as I don't know how many there are Orthodox -- maybe they just disapprove of Israeli politics/Occupation, or possibly over-react to retold tales of Mizrahis experiences and treatment in Israel?]

lgsm
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Today's first segment of Democracy Now: http://www.democracynow.org/2011/5/20/did_obamas_mideast_speech_signal_us

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Garrett78
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Rosenthal, thank you for providing such a stark contrast to my original question.

What do any of your questions have to do with my original question? Even if we answered them the way you'd like us to?

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cgb9001
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http://www.forward.com/articles/118283/

Another interview with Rachel Shabi [quite attractive lady ]

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Quote cgb9001:

Rosenthal, thank you for providing such a stark contrast to my original question.

What do any of your questions have to do with my original question? Even if we answered them the way you'd like us to?

You haven't answered any of my questions, but here's a few more:

Where is it written that I am constrained in my posts to questions that meet your approval?

When did you acquire authority to imposed such a constraint? When did you acquire authority to make and interpret that rule? From whom did you acquire that authority?

To whom are you refering when you used the word "us?"

When you declare that I disapprove of your answers you necessarily imply that you actually answered my questions. Please show me where you answered my questions.

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Rosenthal
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Quote Rosenthal:

You haven't answered any of my questions, but here's a few more:

Where is it written that I am constrained in my posts to questions that meet your approval?

When did you acquire authority to imposed such a constraint? When did you acquire authority to make and interpret that rule? From whom did you acquire that authority?

To whom are you refering when you used the word "us?"

When you declare that I disapprove of your answers you necessarily imply that you actually answered my questions. Please show me where you answered my questions.

Before you complain that I haven't answered your questions, you should at least answer mine.

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cgb9001
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

And since only one of these responses has even attempted to answer my question (thank you Laborisgood), I'll ask it again:

Why don't we ask Israel to follow Gandhi and King?

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cgb9001
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Erroneous responses are better than none at all, right? My posts never get any.

There's another thread "what do we want from israel" that seems to be where most of these comments would be better served. As that thread shows, ask a question about the Middle East and watch the fur fly. Kinda like those Theists vs Atheists threads.

There's so much bad blood and water under this bridge, that asking for Christ-like behavior from Israel at this point is like asking them to pick a nice hillside for their crucifixion.

I'm by no means an expert on the subject, but it seems to me that the blatant increases in settlements over the past decade or so are sowing some bad seeds that will produce some poisonous fruit down the road.

Unfortunately, I think the Gandhi/King train left the station a long time ago. Yet, I am hopeful.

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Laborisgood
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Quote cgb9001:
Quote Rosenthal:

You haven't answered any of my questions, but here's a few more:

Where is it written that I am constrained in my posts to questions that meet your approval?

When did you acquire authority to imposed such a constraint? When did you acquire authority to make and interpret that rule? From whom did you acquire that authority?

To whom are you refering when you used the word "us?"

When you declare that I disapprove of your answers you necessarily imply that you actually answered my questions. Please show me where you answered my questions.

Before you complain that I haven't answered your questions, you should at least answer mine.

Why?

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Rosenthal
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Quote Laborisgood:

There's so much bad blood and water under this bridge, that asking for Christ-like behavior from Israel at this point is like asking them to pick a nice hillside for their crucifixion.

The Palestinian issue was never anything more than a sideshow Laborisgood. The real problem is the whole Middle East and this little turf war, no oil, is miniscule compared to the bigger picture. There would be no money at all in Israel but for what the Israelis have managed to create (and that includes the 1 million Arab Israeli citizens and the Sephardim). Two great books to read are "Paris 1919" and "The Peace to End All Peace." There's a newer one too but the title escapes me.

The bottom line is that you can't arbitrarily cut up a whole region, tell someone that their king of their particular slice of the pie, and expect to have nations. And in terms of hating Israel it's perhaps the one thing they can all agree on.

In terms of "bad blood" check out "Druze." And they're not Jewish. And too think about who bin Laden's real target was.

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Rosenthal
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Quote Rosenthal:

The bottom line is that you can't arbitrarily cut up a whole region, tell someone that their king of their particular slice of the pie, and expect to have nations.

Exactly!

Everybody knows you need to ransack the entire place through violence and spread of disease and take the entire pie like we did to the native Americans. And for good measure bring a bunch of African slaves along for the ride to help wreak your havoc in the confiscated "New World".

Oh, I'm sorry that's not what Gandhi or King would have you do, is it?

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Laborisgood
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Quote Laborisgood:
Quote Rosenthal:

The bottom line is that you can't arbitrarily cut up a whole region, tell someone that their king of their particular slice of the pie, and expect to have nations.

Exactly!

Everybody knows you need to ransack the entire place through violence and spread of disease and take the entire pie like we did to the native Americans. And for good measure bring a bunch of African slaves along for the ride to help wreak your havoc in the confiscated "New World".

Oh, I'm sorry that's not what Gandhi or King would have you do, is it?

wow...

Well, one could argue that neither Gandhi nor King were particularly effective (though both 'ended' as if they were). Anyway, do you suggest the 'Palestinian-Issue' can instead be solved by some W.Bank casino's and/or 20-acres&mules?

It seems, instead, that the so-called 'leader' of the Palestinian's is poised to sign (followed by US/UN Recognition) a highly-modified version of "pre-'67 borders" come Sept., as presided over by their 'champion', Obama. Too bad this deal does not involve the best 10+% of the W.Bank lost to the Wall and other-reservations, plus the best 20+% of the interior+water-rights reserved for Settlements and their 'security-zones' (plus x-amount more for a security-strip along neo-Jordan?). Also, it seems those currently in Gaza will lose that territory in the Bargain [?] -- resulting in forced-relocation coincident to loss of their Right to neo-Israel's only known oil-deposits -- directly off of Gaza's coast. Big loss, but they'll gain dubious 'Statehood', with limited (no-doubt forced by neighboring-countries) 'Right to Return', but not gain any ability to support-themselves or control their border or right-to-defend/militarize or adequate-water or sufficient arable-land or even free internal-travel. Such a deal?

Wonder if American blacks and/or 'Indians' would ever have taken such a deal, followed by celebration/peace/gratitude? At least they eventually received some Rights/participation in a "One-State Solution" -- so their progeny had 'hope', if little-else.

Such complicated ethical and historic Issues involved...

Appreciated the pushhamburger-link, btw. Another, for relevant purview or consideration:

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/holocaust/gedalyaLieberma...

lgsm
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Jul. 3, 2010 6:59 am
Quote Laborisgood:
Quote Rosenthal:

The bottom line is that you can't arbitrarily cut up a whole region, tell someone that their king of their particular slice of the pie, and expect to have nations.

Exactly!

Everybody knows you need to ransack the entire place through violence and spread of disease and take the entire pie like we did to the native Americans. And for good measure bring a bunch of African slaves along for the ride to help wreak your havoc in the confiscated "New World".

Oh, I'm sorry that's not what Gandhi or King would have you do, is it?

Translation: Rosenthal is guilty of horrific acts by virtue of his birth and his association across time and space with people who did terrible things, so Rosenthal should STFU.

Well, Laborbuddy, I am as innocent or guilty as you or anyone else. You needn't confine yourself to the United States, or Americans. Pretty much everyone has lots and lots of blood on their hands--even Gandhi and King. There's not much I can do about it but like hell I'm going to wallow in it. That serves no purpose whatsoever, even if it does give you some kind of vicarious satisfaction.

I am something of a student of history. The history of the Middle East is rather dry, to be sure, but it is about the region being carved up and messed with big time by the Western powers (not the U.S. directly) after the fall of the Ottomans. You cannot understand Israel and Palestine or anything else without understanding where that fits in.

Rosenthal's picture
Rosenthal
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote Rosenthal:
Quote Laborisgood:
Quote Rosenthal:

The bottom line is that you can't arbitrarily cut up a whole region, tell someone that their king of their particular slice of the pie, and expect to have nations.

Exactly!

Everybody knows you need to ransack the entire place through violence and spread of disease and take the entire pie like we did to the native Americans. And for good measure bring a bunch of African slaves along for the ride to help wreak your havoc in the confiscated "New World".

Oh, I'm sorry that's not what Gandhi or King would have you do, is it?

Translation: Rosenthal is guilty of horrific acts by virtue of his birth and his association across time and space with people who did terrible things, so Rosenthal should STFU.

Well, Laborbuddy, I am as innocent or guilty as you or anyone else. You needn't confine yourself to the United States, or Americans. Pretty much everyone has lots and lots of blood on their hands--even Gandhi and King. There's not much I can do about it but like hell I'm going to wallow in it. That serves no purpose whatsoever, even if it does give you some kind of vicarious satisfaction.

I am something of a student of history. The history of the Middle East is rather dry, to be sure, but it is about the region being carved up and messed with big time by the Western powers (not the U.S. directly) after the fall of the Ottomans. You cannot understand Israel and Palestine or anything else without understanding where that fits in.

I would never tell you to STFU Rosenthal. Especially on a subject with which I am clearly deficient. I am definitely NOT a student of history and would never pretend to be.

Your quote about cutting up the pie was just a convenient jumping off point for my comment about the futility of nation building (which you appeared to agree with) and generally addressing the question of "at what specific date do you draw the line with state boundaries?"

You were not necessarily defining dates in the comment I quoted, but many have recently in these threads related to the middle east. When people insist that pre-1967 borders must be used that begs the question of why not pre-1948 borders and ultimately leads me to the question "who the hell are we (America) to tell other nations what dates should define their borders?"

I get no satisfaction from the blood on America's hands (vicarious or otherwise) and I too have never owned a slave or stolen land from a Native American. Shame perhaps and a deep sense of the unfairness of the world we live in.

And I couldn't agree more that painting this as simply Jews vs Arabs without factoring the West as a whole is absurd.

Laborisgood's picture
Laborisgood
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote Laborisgood:
Quote Rosenthal:
Quote Laborisgood:
Quote Rosenthal:

The bottom line is that you can't arbitrarily cut up a whole region, tell someone that their king of their particular slice of the pie, and expect to have nations.

Exactly!

Everybody knows you need to ransack the entire place through violence and spread of disease and take the entire pie like we did to the native Americans. And for good measure bring a bunch of African slaves along for the ride to help wreak your havoc in the confiscated "New World".

Oh, I'm sorry that's not what Gandhi or King would have you do, is it?

Translation: Rosenthal is guilty of horrific acts by virtue of his birth and his association across time and space with people who did terrible things, so Rosenthal should STFU.

Well, Laborbuddy, I am as innocent or guilty as you or anyone else. You needn't confine yourself to the United States, or Americans. Pretty much everyone has lots and lots of blood on their hands--even Gandhi and King. There's not much I can do about it but like hell I'm going to wallow in it. That serves no purpose whatsoever, even if it does give you some kind of vicarious satisfaction.

I am something of a student of history. The history of the Middle East is rather dry, to be sure, but it is about the region being carved up and messed with big time by the Western powers (not the U.S. directly) after the fall of the Ottomans. You cannot understand Israel and Palestine or anything else without understanding where that fits in.

I would never tell you to STFU Rosenthal. Especially on a subject with which I am clearly deficient. I am definitely NOT a student of history and would never pretend to be.

Your quote about cutting up the pie was just a convenient jumping off point for my comment about the futility of nation building (which you appeared to agree with) and generally addressing the question of "at what specific date do you draw the line with state boundaries?"

You were not necessarily defining dates in the comment I quoted, but many have recently in these threads related to the middle east. When people insist that pre-1967 borders must be used that begs the question of why not pre-1948 borders and ultimately leads me to the question "who the hell are we (America) to tell other nations what dates should define their borders?"

I get no satisfaction from the blood on America's hands (vicarious or otherwise) and I too have never owned a slave or stolen land from a Native American. Shame perhaps and a deep sense of the unfairness of the world we live in.

And I couldn't agree more that painting this as simply Jews vs Arabs without factoring the West as a whole is absurd.

I apologize to the extent I apparently misunderstood you. As for the 1967 borders, there is no significance other than that's generally been the discussion. Israel has always faced the issue of being destroyed not by bullets but by population and there has always been the realization that a smaller Israel is preferable to no Israel, as I understand their history.

There was no attempt at nation building in the Middle East. It was pure divide and conquer and but for the oil I think it's fair to say that no one in the West would care. Absolutely every government in the Middle East has been nothing short of miserable, other than Israel. Turkey showed some signs but its government is still miserable. Current developments hold some promise and I truly hope the people of the Middle East progress to a better state. Eventually I think they will get there but it's not going to be easy.

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Rosenthal
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote Rosenthal:Translation: Rosenthal is guilty of horrific acts by virtue of his birth and his association across time and space with people who did terrible things, so Rosenthal should STFU.

I like what Tim Wise has to say about guilt vs. responsibility: http://www.timwise.org/2010/11/the-difference-between-guilt-and-responsibility-video-clip-10610/

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Garrett78
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