Poverty

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Poverty

The world is obsessed with poverty and how to solve the problem of poverty.

I believe most poverty is produced by sin (failure to follow the commandments/doctrines of the Bible). Romans 6:23, states "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." I believe the poverty produced by a 40% illegitimacy rate and the two million deaths per year due to AIDS, proves the wages of sin in disease, death, destruction and poverty.

I believe the Biblical solution to poverty is for every person to remove sin from their life. Matthew 5:28-29, "If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for the whole body to be thrown into hell"

Note that the action is by "you", not the Church, not the State (Civil Law) and not by God.

I believe Satan tells people that the Bible is wrong again, and the real reason for poverty is oppression by the rich. The solution to the oppression of the rich is to elect Democrats to office who will use Socialism for wealth redistribution. This may put a few dollars into the pockets of the poor, but the sin remains and the disease, death, destruction and poverty of sin remains so the need for additional health care/welfare/entitlement programs of Socialism grows.

We have 45 million people on food stamps that are slaves to the Democratic Party, in order to get their food stamps.

The Bible rebukes both the rich and the poor, thus following Christian Principles can resolve the problems of the rich and the poor.

Proverbs 30:8-9 states, "Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me: Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? Or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain."

I believe Christians should strive for the middle ground of prosperity.

Anytime a poor person accepts money for a condition that could have been prevented, they are stealing. Anyone that advocates wealth redistribution is facilitating the stealing.

I do not advocate the immediate elimination of Socialism, because that could produce mass starvation, but I believe Socialism should be phased out by not accepting any new people.

People must return to taking responsibility for their actions.

When you go to the voting booth you make a decision on the cause of poverty. If you believe sin causes poverty, you will probably vote Republican, and if you believe oppression by the rich causes poverty, you will probably vote Democrat.

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clirus
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Comments

Well, you can't legislate morality. You can legislate how a nation's wealth is distributed.. That's how King Louis lost his head. He took it all.

Native American Nations didn't have extremes of wealth or poverty. They were egalitarian. Does that mean that non-Christian peoples were without sin...while Christians retained it?

When malnourished, impoverished Europeans first settled this continent, they found a higher quality of living for the majority among the native populations than they'd experienced in Europe.

Indentured servants, when they had the opportunity, fled to Indian Nations as a refuge...and improved their living standards at the same time.

Native American Nations didn't have extremes of wealth or poverty. They were egalitarian and democratic. Does that mean that non-Christian peoples were without sin...while Christians chose to retain it?

Probably we shouldn't have replaced superior social organization with an inferior one..

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

.

polycarp2
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

you can't legislate morality

Response

You cannot legislate morality, but then you should not reward immorality with Socialism.

The native American Indians were constantly at war with each other.

Only when Christians came to America were the resources of America used for good.

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clirus
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Jul. 21, 2010 11:51 am

"Only when Christians came to America were the resources of America used for good." clirus

Sure...beginning with the annihilation of the Native Americans. When that wasn't enough they proceeded to "Christianize" the savages in the Phillipines and elsewhere...by slaughtering them for Christ. Which was merely a precursor to the US invading, slaughtering, torturing, assassinating...any nations which showed any inclination towards providing any semblence of a democracy or policies which were centered on helping its own people rather than the US/transnational corporations.

"I believe most poverty is produced by sin (failure to follow the commandments/doctrines of the Bible)."

Please...

"I believe Satan tells people that the Bible is wrong again, and the real reason for poverty is oppression by the rich."

That you actually believe that there is a "Satan" scares me more than the rest of your ridiculous comment.

While religion and or Christianity is not the root of all evil nor the cause of what is wrong with the world, I would submit that comments like yours cement such thinking in many people.

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norske
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

"I believe the poverty produced by a 40% illegitimacy rate and the two million deaths per year due to AIDS, proves the wages of sin in disease, death, destruction and poverty." clirus

I missed this gem. If there were such a deity....it would be a loathsome prick.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus

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norske
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Obviously, you view other people's sins as much a cause for the world's suffering as your own.

In the "Old Testament" (Jewish Tanakh), it says that the proverb "When the Parents Do Evil, Then the Children Have Their Teeth Smashed" is an evil one. The concept of vicarious sin is not supported by the Tanakh (your "Old Testament"). I refuse to hold myself directly or indirectly to be guilty of sin (or wrongdoing) because other people do it. Sure, there may be indirect consequences that I might experience because of the evil of others, but I am guilty or not guilty of my own sin.

micahjr34
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Feb. 7, 2011 4:57 pm
Quote clirus:

Poverty

The world is obsessed with poverty and how to solve the problem of poverty.

Since when?

Quote clirus:

I believe...
I believe...
Note that the action is by "you", not the Church, not the State (Civil Law) and not by God.

Believe what you want, it's a free country. Did you plan on offering any explanation for your belief besides claiming that it comes from the Bible?

Quote clirus:

The Bible rebukes both the rich and the poor, thus following Christian Principles can resolve the problems of the rich and the poor.

If sin causes poverty, and both rich and poor are sinners unless they are redeemed, why are the unreedemed rich rich and not poor?

Quote clirus:

Anytime a poor person accepts money for a condition that could have been prevented, they are stealing. Anyone that advocates wealth redistribution is facilitating the stealing.

This is bearing false witness. Accepting money legally does not constitute stealing just because you don't agree with giving it to them. Claiming that you do not incur an obligation to society to follow the law and pay taxes, or more to the point that you have a god-given right to do so selectively borders on lying. If you believe that the government is behaving immorally, you can find others of like mind or decide what actions you can ethically take to rectify the situation. If you aren't successful in convincing people of your position that the government is stealing, at least don't vilify those who benefit from government largesse.

In regard to that last point, just because government programs don't necessarilly eliminate bad behavior, I find it hard to believe that bureaucrats could be so self-serving as to dupe what would have to be a very gullible public into funding programs which not only do nothing to improve the situation in such a way to have an overall beneficial effect but actually have the oppossite effect.

Quote clirus:

I do not advocate the immediate elimination of Socialism, because that could produce mass starvation, but I believe Socialism should be phased out by not accepting any new people.

That way people will starve to death gradually. Great way to keep them from sinning: make sure they get to hell quicker.

Quote clirus:
People must return to taking responsibility for their actions.

When you go to the voting booth you make a decision on the cause of poverty. If you believe sin causes poverty, you will probably vote Republican, and if you believe oppression by the rich causes poverty, you will probably vote Democrat.

I've seen enough to convince me that unethical behavior has been fostered by our capitalist system in its current form. Sometimes people have to be held responsible for their actions if they won't behave responsibly themselves willingly. Those with wealth and power who behave unethically pose even more of a threat to decent society than a horde of degenerate riff-raff.

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nimblecivet
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Either the OP is the biggest troll or one of the most hateful self righteous pieces of scum.

Dominic C
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Jun. 27, 2011 10:39 am

In the Bible, it says that those who voluntarily give up their wealth are blessed...

"Blessed are the poor in spirit..."

While I admit that voluntary poverty is not the same as being born into a life situation of poverty, or by becoming poor through incompetently handling the money one has, it goes to show that not having money is not a factor to a more accurate interpretation of the Christian Bible.

micahjr34
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Feb. 7, 2011 4:57 pm

Having money and being a good person (i.e., non-"sinner") are not one and the same. Ever heard of Bernie Madoff? His actions were so upsetting to his son that the son committed suicide.

Jeff Skilling and Ken Lay anyone?

There are conservative individuals who are successful financially but who did rather poorly in school and in their academic careers. Their ideas are based on propaganda, distortions, and falesehoods. That goes hand-in-hand with these instances of poor educational background and misunderstandings born from poor academic performance.

My understanding is that Governor Rick Perry is such an individual.

Today, during a campaign appearance, someone shouted at Mitt Romney, "Corporate greed!" All Romney could think to answer back with was, "Corporations are people." No they aren't.

When it comes to religious doctrine, I don't happen to believe in it, but I'll listen to a trained, ordained rabbi, minister, or priest, not someone bloviating on the Internet, or a politician like Perry who mixes religion with politics.

The world is not obsessed with poverty or trying to solve it. It it were, the world would have made much more progress in addressing it than has been made. Economists are well aware that we are still in a period which has had the highest unemployment since the Great Depression.

Conservatives are right-wingers. The Nazis under Hitler were right-wing. THE TYPE OF SCAPEGOATING RHETORIC USED BY THE NAZIS AGAINST THE JEWS IS ALSO USED BY CONSERVATIVES AGAINST PEOPLE ON THE BASIS OF SOCIAL CLASS WHICH IS BASED ON OCCUPATIONAL STATUS AND HOW MUCH WEALTH SOMEONE HAS. The Nazis killed over 6 million Jews, including relatives of mine. I reserve the right to make the comparision between one group of right-wing extermists with another.

There are low-income people who have medical conditions. Most conservatives were too lazy and probably not smart enough to go to medical school. Government programs have eligibility limits on them. What many conservatives refer to as welfare has been changed into a time-limited program which has the word "temporary" in the title.

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Robindell
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Conservatives are right-wingers. The Nazis under Hitler were right-wing. THE TYPE OF SCAPEGOATING RHETORIC USED BY THE NAZIS AGAINST THE JEWS IS ALSO USED BY CONSERVATIVES AGAINST PEOPLE ON THE BASIS OF SOCIAL CLASS WHICH IS BASED ON OCCUPATIONAL STATUS AND HOW MUCH WEALTH SOMEONE HAS. The Nazis killed over 6 million Jews, including relatives of mine. I reserve the right to make the comparision between one group of right-wing extermists with another.

There are low-income people who have medical conditions. Most conservatives were too lazy and probably not smart enough to go to medical school. Government programs have eligibility limits on them. What many conservatives refer to as welfare has been changed into a time-limited program which has the word "temporary" in the title.

Response

The Nazis under Hitler were National Socialists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_policies

Nazism (Nationalsozialismus, National Socialism; alternatively spelled Naziism[1]; historically also Hitlerism,[2] Hitlerismus[3]) was the ideology and practice of the Nazi Party and of Nazi Germany.[4][5][6][7] It was a unique variety of fascism that incorporated biological racism and antisemitism.[8]

The problem is you are discussing things from a left wing and right wing standpoint and the real issue relative to poverty is living a health lifestyle.

Liberals can make an excuse for the poor that the poor are/were oppressed thus they are poor, but when you see poverty, you also see sin.

Illegitimate children, produced by the sin of adultery, are instant poverty.

AIDS, produced by the sin of homosexual activity, is instant poverty.

Certainly Hollywood encouraged both adultery and homosexual activity, but no one forced these people to do anything, they made their own choices and now are suffering the disease, death, destruction and poverty produced by sin.

Society should not accept responsibility for people that make bad decisions. Socialism actually rewards people who make bad decisions. The only reason Democrats advocate Socialism is because Socialism is a great way to buy the poverty vote.

There will always be the rich and poor that are evil, but the best thing is the Christian Lifestyle and the prosperity that the Christian Lifestyle produces. The Bible condemns both the rich and the poor.

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clirus
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Jul. 21, 2010 11:51 am

God can do all things, but for man to have a free will (thus not a slave), God must allow people to make desions on their own.

The Bible provides warnings and advice, but anyone can reject God and the Bible.

God is not the problem, people that refuse the good advice of the Bible is the problem.

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clirus
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Jul. 21, 2010 11:51 am

If sin causes poverty, and both rich and poor are sinners unless they are redeemed, why are the unreedemed rich rich and not poor?

Response

Some think the rich are happy, but being rich is probably the worst thing that can happen to a person.

People that are unredeemed may get rich, but that is only a season of pleasure.

Lottery winners end up miserable.

I once say a TV series on what happened to Hollywood stars, and most died a miserable death.

I do not envy the rich, I accept the posterity produced by the Christian Lifestyle and advocate the prosperity of the Christian Lifestyle for everyone.

-------------------------------------

Those with wealth and power who behave unethically pose even more of a threat to decent society than a horde of degenerate riff-raff.

Response

Is there any difference between one person stealing a million dollars and a million people stealing one dollar. Actually it is easier to bring the person that steals a million dollars to justice than to deal with the million, especially when the million keep reproducing at an irresponsible rate.

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clirus
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Jul. 21, 2010 11:51 am

The logic you teach is questionable.

You blame homosexuality for the AIDS crisis, but you forget that HIV can be transmitted to people via heterosexual intercourse as, and not to mention by blood transfusions and otherwise making contact with blood in way that transfers the HIV type virus.

Also, I find no evidence that having sex outside of marriage and producing an illigitimate child necessarily produces poverty. While that is the case insome families, you are making an illogical universal positive that can't be proven.

Also you are ignoring the fact that voluntary poverty, as defined by the Bible, can be considered a blessing, and is not necessarily brought into existence by "sin."

micahjr34
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Feb. 7, 2011 4:57 pm
Quote micahjr34:

The logic you teach is questionable.

You blame homosexuality for the AIDS crisis, but you forget that HIV can be transmitted to people via heterosexual intercourse as, and not to mention by blood transfusions and otherwise making contact with blood in way that transfers the HIV type virus.

Also, I find no evidence that having sex outside of marriage and producing an illigitimate child necessarily produces poverty. While that is the case insome families, you are making an illogical universal positive that can't be proven.

Also you are ignoring the fact that voluntary poverty, as defined by the Bible, can be considered a blessing, and is not necessarily brought into existence by "sin."

Not only are the OP's "teachings" are questionable, they are highly inflammatory and offensive to put it mildly. More accurately it is a immoral and disgusting argument based solely on Christian right wing self righteousness.

My first profanity laced comment I directed at the OP stands. I call it as I see it and the term I used was appropriate considering the vile hatred shown by this poster.

Dominic C
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Jun. 27, 2011 10:39 am

Both the rich and the poor make their decisions within the context of the overall economic, social, and political system. The rich have much more latitude of action, so they are more culpable for their decisions. Yes, stealing a million dollars is worse than stealing one dollar. Breaking someone's nose and teeth is worse than spitting on them, although both are reprehensible. This is not "making excuses", its practicing forgiveness. Until all or the majority of the people willingly work together one way or another, those that do not want to create a more egalitarian and peaceful society will continue to make excuses and devise rhetoric to hide their own selfish intentions.

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nimblecivet
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

I am generally very entertained with the dynamic discussions between religious right and liberals.

Clirus, The bible will never serve as a legitimate footnoting factoid. You might as well quote passages from Tolkien Lord of the Rings. But I am impressed; most bible wielders are a belligerent lot. You seem to hang in the pocket well enough despite the off topic commentary.

Telara
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Aug. 10, 2011 9:53 pm

The first Christians held everything in common. Book of Acts. Our systems are in direct opposition to that.

It's a pity the non-Christian Christians killed off the non-Christian societies that operated on Christian principles.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is disease"

polycarp2
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote polycarp2:

The first Christians held everything in common. Book of Acts. Our systems are in direct opposition to that.

It's a pity the non-Christian Christians killed off the non-Christian societies that operated on Christian principles.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is disease"

As I am on a Ghandi roll here, I think these two quotes apply very well:

"Intolerance betrays want of faith in one's cause."

Mohandas Gandhi

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Mohandas Gandhi

Dominic C
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Jun. 27, 2011 10:39 am

You blame homosexuality for the AIDS crisis, but you forget that HIV can be transmitted to people via heterosexual intercourse as, and not to mention by blood transfusions and otherwise making contact with blood in way that transfers the HIV type virus.

Also, I find no evidence that having sex outside of marriage and producing an illigitimate child necessarily produces poverty. While that is the case insome families, you are making an illogical universal positive that can't be proven.

Also you are ignoring the fact that voluntary poverty, as defined by the Bible, can be considered a blessing, and is not necessarily brought into existence by "sin."

Response

I can tell from the tone of your writing you know homosexuality and adultery do lead to poverty.

AIDS started in America with homosexual activity and is sustained by homosexual activity.

The mortal shame of homosexuality is that the AIDS epidemic was totally preventable. The book and movie, "The Band Played On" tells of how the Center for Disease Control had clearly identified the pathway of AIDS into America in 1983 and had asked the San Francisco government to close the homosexual bath houses that were spreading AIDS. The San Francisco government refused.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312241356/103-6581221-6591829?v=glance...

---------------------------------

Illegitimacy a Major Cause of Dependence and PovertyRobert Rector – February 1, 1997

Marriage is dying in America. Last year, roughly a third of all births in the United States were out-of wedlock. The portion of all births that are illegitimate is increasing relentlessly at about 1 percentage point a year.

The most obvious consequences of the rising tide of illegitimacy and declining marriage are welfare dependence and child poverty. The chart shows data from the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth (NLSY) which contains a national representative sample of young mothers and their children.

http://heartland.org/policy-documents/illegitimacy-major-cause-dependence-and-poverty#1

--------------------------------------

Christians are usually not rich, but they are also not poor, they are prosperous. How can a person be a benefit to his neighbor if the person is in poverty themself?

The early Church tried Socialism, but even Christians could not get Socailism to work. Later in the New Testament the statement is made.

I Timothy 5:8 states, "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

Now that is the correct concept to deal with men that fail to provide for their children.

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clirus
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Jul. 21, 2010 11:51 am

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Mohandas Gandhi

Response

What would you expect an Atheist to say?

A Christian is a person that has accepted Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and committed to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible.

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clirus
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Jul. 21, 2010 11:51 am

Clirius, please read the whole Romans one and two to appreciate that Paul was talking about judgmental twits and embarrassments to Christ, not whether gay and lesbian human beings who fulfill everything about the Torah Spirit are included. I think it is clear that they are, and that it is those who put up the barricades who are the problem.

Jesus gathered the exiles and homeless around him in the context of guerilla wars. The "preferential option for the poor" is not just a Catholic doctrine, it is what the Gospel is all about. When those with riches identify with the poor, when they see more than "charity" as their bond, a commonality is found in "Christ" or in their human reality. I don't think Jesus cares if they just think it is totally human and natural.

Speculation about the existence of God--is that ontological or metaphysical existence?--and the whole exercise about "atheism" and cosmological realism keeps us from the important questions of the power of love and necessity of justice. We do not think about being in harmony and balance with the world when we argue about 19th Century economic theory. It is disappointing to find another "Christian" trying to devalue Christ to make the case for religion. Faith is about moral and intellectual integrity and the conscience to hold fast in the ambiguity of being human.

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DRC
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

I remember hearing this many moons ago. Still resonates on lots of levels, religious and otherwise.

Wanderlust21
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Dec. 3, 2010 7:58 pm

You do realize that you must have failed in your human life and now you live with the rest of us in hell, don't you?

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Bush_Wacker
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Jun. 25, 2011 7:53 am

Jesus gathered the exiles and homeless around him in the context of guerilla wars. The "preferential option for the poor" is not just a Catholic doctrine, it is what the Gospel is all about. When those with riches identify with the poor, when they see more than "charity" as their bond, a commonality is found in "Christ" or in their human reality. I don't think Jesus cares if they just think it is totally human and natural.

Response

That is just downright silly.

The purpose of God and the Bible was to establish the best possible life on earth for those that would love God by following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible.

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgement, and every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil."

Poverty is avoided when the commandments/doctrines of the Bible are followed.

The greatest need of the poor is the salvation of accepting Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and committing to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible.

That is why Christians are given the Great Commission.

Matthew 28:19-20 states, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world."

There is no requirement to take a sandwich when doing the Great Commission.

Evil people want Christianity to be about charity to the poor, because the evil people are the physical poor. God loves those that are spiritually poor. A person can be physically rich or physically poor, but God is able to deal with those that are spiritually poor.

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clirus
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Jul. 21, 2010 11:51 am

Clirus,

Epidemiologists studying HIV type viruses theorize that the virus somehow originated in Africa sometime in the past due to its similarities to viruses in certain primate species in Africa. The HIV type virus was discovered due to deaths caused by it, and there is a chance that San Francisco and New York City were points where it spread in the USA, but the virus by no means came into existence in San Francisco or New York City.

Then you make the assertion that due to the sin of premarital sex, that having unmarried women or couples exposes sin, I can say that according to the Christian Bible, all premarital sex is a sin. However, your statements suggest (if I interpret your statements right, please correct me if I am incorrect in interpreting what you are saying) that the poverty itself is the consequence. This ignores how people can get married and still be poor, either voluntarily or out some other financial incompetence. You are attempting to make an argument using the unmarried sexual activity as the primary cause of the effects of such sin. All I can say is that I have known poor people who didn't have sex before marriage, and others who were the reverse of that.

Clirus, your argument is based on a reactionary interpretation of the Bible, and assumes that every word in it is literally true. I am an epistemological skeptic who has studied the Bible. I have been trying to argue in terms that would not be uncomfortable for you. I think it is my turn to make statements!

Do you believe in a literal interpretation of Noah's flood? I do not because scientists have estimated that if the entire surface of the Earth was covered in water as described in Genesis, that resulting moisture content of the air would suffocate the people (and most of the animals) in the ark. Could you refute this? Are you willing to question your own dogmatic beliefs? In your response I would like it you did not reply using Bible verses, because they have no absolute authority. Please argue using independently measurable facts only please!

micahjr34
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Feb. 7, 2011 4:57 pm

Clirus, are you sure your name isn't Doug Coe?

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norske
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Clirus, you should read the bible more and post less.

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Bush_Wacker
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Jun. 25, 2011 7:53 am
Quote clirus:

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Mohandas Gandhi

Response

What would you expect an Atheist to say?

A Christian is a person that has accepted Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and committed to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible.

You are a truly ugly human being with absolutely no hope at redemption.

Dominic C
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Jun. 27, 2011 10:39 am

Your post, strangely omits addressing something very important. The nourishing aspect of a spirit of giving that is inspired and activated by one's faith.....

Demonstrated in Acts 2:44 ...All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.

think...A VOLUNTARY Communal society ...if and ONLY if....there is singleness in spirit and heart...like, these early Christians ...could prosper.....

I lived in a communal style rooming house with others in the faith....and we prospered together on very minimal wages, I was a student, we pooled together all expenses as a family and there was enough left over to give back.....

The evil of extreme individualism, which is typified in America.....is why though a country may be materially wealthy, it can be culturally poor without a sense of community...

Why own a single passenger dinosaur auto, if you can ride a bullet train and walk?...

.notice that Jesus and the Disciples did not have 13 individual boats.....in modern times I see them in a large VW Euro Van.....not 13 separate Hummers!.....lol.....which has been the wisest culture?...you decide....

Too often... loving money is a the American idol....the root of all evil

Greed and sloth are also, Satan's combo working together to create poverty. It's done by figuring out of all the loopholes in an under-regulated musical chairs-style-capitalism...also, not in your post..

Progressive property and income taxes would be a huge disincentive to hoarding material goods...treasure in heaven ...remember?

America is far from a Christian Nation...

http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2011/08/moral-christian-policy-or-corrupt-corporate-despotism-post-democratic-american-labor-a

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jcgood1984
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Aug. 3, 2011 10:17 am
Quote clirus:

The native American Indians were constantly at war with each other.

And Christians are not?

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Aenod
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Aug. 12, 2011 8:14 am

Do you believe in a literal interpretation of Noah's flood? I do not because scientists have estimated that if the entire surface of the Earth was covered in water as described in Genesis, that resulting moisture content of the air would suffocate the people (and most of the animals) in the ark. Could you refute this? Are you willing to question your own dogmatic beliefs? In your response I would like it you did not reply using Bible verses, because they have no absolute authority. Please argue using independently measurable facts only please!

Response

Where are the independently measurable facts in your statements?

When you use phrases like "have estimated" instead of "have proven by independently measurable facts" then the Atheist positions may be considered valid, but until then the positions of Athiests are no more valid than Christians.

I have never seen any independently measurable fact that has disproved anything in the Bible thus I consider the Bible as valid a theory on creation as the Theory of Evolution and the Big Bang Theory.

Only a very small fraction of the Bible has to be accepted on faith. All of Atheism has to be accepted on faith.

Please don't worry about my comfort level, I am only irritated by Atheists who try to force me to pay for there immorality.

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clirus
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Jul. 21, 2010 11:51 am

Christians war against the evil of Atheism.

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clirus
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Jul. 21, 2010 11:51 am

The nourishing aspect of a spirit of giving that is inspired and activated by one's faith.....

Response

Is it loving your neighbor giving an alcholic a drink?

The spirit of giving is to help the person, not to indulge the evil desires of the person.

Just giving without the intend to help is just selfish and self serving.

The reason the first part of the Great Commandment is to "Love the Lord" is so you will then know how to "Love your Neighbor".

Loving your neighbor without first loving the Lord, is Socialism, and that is why Socialism does more harm than good.

Evil people get encouragement and assistance from Socialism, but they never will examine themselves and remove the thing that is creating the problem.

Christians constantly examine themselves and remove that which is a danger to them.

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clirus
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Jul. 21, 2010 11:51 am

REPLY TO POST#32

Your statement dodges the issue of whether or not the moisture content in the air would have been suffocating to the people and animals on the ark. Everything else is rhetoric.

micahjr34
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Feb. 7, 2011 4:57 pm

Your statement dodges the issue of whether or not the moisture content in the air would have been suffocating to the people and animals on the ark. Everything else is rhetoric.

Response

I consider it a moral obligation to avoid stupid questions.

There are a lot more stupid questions than qood answers.

Usually stupid questions are used to try to change the issue.

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clirus
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Jul. 21, 2010 11:51 am

If James was correct in stating "Faith without works is dead", then is it a deficiency of faith or works that the poor are so guilty of? Or is their sin more of an original sin that they have no say in?

Wouldn't the Calvinist equating of prosperity and piety place the Koch brothers way ahead of Gandhi on the list of those deserving God's favor?

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Laborisgood
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

If James was correct in stating "Faith without works is dead", then is it a deficiency of faith or works that the poor are so guilty of? Or is their sin more of an original sin that they have no say in?

Wouldn't the Calvinist equating of prosperity and piety place the Koch brothers way ahead of Gandhi on the list of those deserving God's favor?

Response

James was telling Christians that Christians cannot rely on just faith to get them to Heaven, Christians also need to be spreading the Gospel to those that have not heard the Gospel.

The Bible rebukes both the rich and poor. I believe the worth of a person to God is going to be that they accept Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and commit to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible.

Those that reject Jesus Christ will go to Hell (Great White Throne Judgement) and those that accept Jesus Christ will go to Heaven, but will be judged as to how well they followed the commandments/doctrines of the Bible.

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgement, and every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil."

Note that none of what I stated had anything to do with a person, nor race, nor color, nor creed, or anything else.

The Bible is absolute truth for all people, but unfortunately there will always be those that reject God.

Those that reject God make life miserable for everyone else.

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clirus
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Jul. 21, 2010 11:51 am

I seem to have missed your explanation of Koch's prosperity illustrating their superior piety over the like's of that poor Indian dude.

Isn't that really the essence of your thread?

Life can also be made miserable by self righteous believers.

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Laborisgood
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Laborisgood:

If James was correct in stating "Faith without works is dead", then is it a deficiency of faith or works that the poor are so guilty of? Or is their sin more of an original sin that they have no say in?

Wouldn't the Calvinist equating of prosperity and piety place the Koch brothers way ahead of Gandhi on the list of those deserving God's favor?

See below for the answer to your question by the OP:

Quote clirus:

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Mohandas Gandhi

Response

What would you expect an Atheist to say?

A Christian is a person that has accepted Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and committed to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible.

Dominic C
Joined:
Jun. 27, 2011 10:39 am
Quote clirus:

Your statement dodges the issue of whether or not the moisture content in the air would have been suffocating to the people and animals on the ark. Everything else is rhetoric.

Response

I consider it a moral obligation to avoid stupid questions.

There are a lot more stupid questions than qood answers.

Usually stupid questions are used to try to change the issue.

Translation: I'm a coward and run from questions I can't answer.

Dominic C
Joined:
Jun. 27, 2011 10:39 am
Quote clirus:

"Intolerance betrays want of faith in one's cause."

Mohandas Gandhi

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Mohandas Gandhi

Response

What would you expect an Atheist to say?

A Christian is a person that has accepted Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and committed to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible.

Amazing how you prove Ghandi's points through this one single response...

Oh, and I added my full post in there since you conviniently left out the first quote by a truly great individual.

Dominic C
Joined:
Jun. 27, 2011 10:39 am

"Is it loving your neighbor giving an alcholic a drink?

answer....... it depends on the person, the amount, the time, the place, and the motivation, for medicinal reasons

The spirit of giving is to help the person, not to indulge the evil desires of the person.

answer...It is also to help....The Community.. your ideology seems to have no balance....the sword has two- sides....

Just giving without the intend to help is just selfish and self serving."

Answer..I agree, that is a perverted way of thinking.....but you do not make it clear...what the selfish person is getting out of giving for giving sake.....it makes no sense.

"The reason the first part of the Great Commandment is to "Love the Lord" is so you will then know how to "Love your Neighbor".

answer...not quite....the two laws are in tandem....scripture states several places that you love God,,,,by loving your neighbor....Our love for God grows when we first respect His law and we learn to love him by application to our neighbor....and God gets all the glory.....

"Loving your neighbor without first loving the Lord, is Socialism, and that is why Socialism does more harm than good."

answer: well, that's interesting logic, but it has no shred of truth to it, no scripture verse.....sorry charlie.....

"Evil people get encouragement and assistance from Socialism, but they never will examine themselves and remove the thing that is creating the problem."

answer: no shred of truth.....Jesus said that evil is in the heart......Socialism is only a balancing tool. What's the alternative?....musical chairs style capitalism....sorry charlie

"Christians constantly examine themselves and remove that which is a danger to them." .

answer..not quite....the real danger is man's ideology mixed with religious zeal.....that's why my Lord was crucified...not because a union carpenter collectively bargained for the cross construction..

The goodness of God leads a man to repent ...not the evils of government or society

therefore....you waste much breath

peace

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jcgood1984
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Aug. 3, 2011 10:17 am

answer...not quite....the two laws are in tandem....scripture states several places that you love God,,,,by loving your neighbor....Our love for God grows when we first respect His law and we learn to love him by application to our neighbor....and God gets all the glory.....

Response

Matthew 22:37-40 says, "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

The ony way a person can love their neighbor is by first loving God.

Atheists, Socialists, Progressives and Democrats try to make the Bible say things that support their positions and many people never check the Bible to prove them wrong.

God gets no glory when evil people are given anything for any reason.

The Bible requires Christian Charity among Christians, but that represents good people helping good people. God does not require Christians to physically help evil people.

God does require Christians to offer salvation to evil people.

People repent only when they realize they are wrong and God is right. Gifts have no effect on the decision to repent and even allows the person to avoid examining themself and determining what is wrong in their life.

The alternative to Socialism is Christianity and America returning to being a Christian Nation.

The Church should rebuke sin/evil in obedience to God and the State should rebuke/execute evil/sin for health, safety and economic reasons.

Some will always reject God but they can serve as bad examples by starving to death.

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clirus
Joined:
Jul. 21, 2010 11:51 am

Life can also be made miserable by self righteous believers.

Response

A Christian would not be a self righteous believer, but rather a person that is concerned about other people by constantly offer salvation to everyone.

But, I can see how Atheists, Socialists, Progressives and Democrats would consider Christians to be self righteous belivers since they hate God and what is said in the Bible.

Galatians 5:19-23, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkness, revellings, and such like: of which I tell you before, as I have also told you in the time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. ---- But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

It is difficult for Christians to follow the "fruit of the Spirit" but they attend Church sevices to be reminded that Jesus Christ died on the cross so the "works of the flesh" might be forgiven when a person accepts Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and commits to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible.

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clirus
Joined:
Jul. 21, 2010 11:51 am
Quote clirus:

The Bible requires Christian Charity among Christians, but that represents good people helping good people. God does not require Christians to physically help evil people.

We are required to love our neighbor, not judge our neighbor.

Where does the Bible tell you to first judge the poor and decide their worthiness before providing charity?

Was the Good Samaritan wrong by NOT first judging as the others who passed by the man in need before offering help?

Suppose you have a bunch of poor people (which we have). Even if some are poor due to their sins, isn't it just as sinful to not help them when you have the means to do so?

"What you did not do for the least of these you did not do for me."

God's sun rises on the evil and the good, and His rain falls on the unrighteous as well as the righteous.

It's ironic how so many outspoken Christians can refuse to follow Jesus' commands while so many who actually follow his commands dismiss all religion outright. Go figure.

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Laborisgood
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Clirus wrote:

The native American Indians were constantly at war with each other.

poly replies: Actually, that isn't true. The Iroquois Confedrration had over 400 years of peace. What Christian nation can claim that?

Probably slowing the production and distribution of goods so the money used to buy goods to pay for continued production can be thrown at banksters is rather stupid..

The only Christian communities I know of where one doesn't dine on steak while another dines out of a dumpster is monastaries.

Many Native American Nations resembled monastic structures before their cultures were destroyed.. Hunger amidst plenty wasn't heard of. though it's endemic to most "Christian" nations and in most "Christian" communities..

Many Native American Nations had a greater understanding of "God":, the "Great Spirit" than we do. One example: Christian Scripture states God proclaimed His Creation as good. Native Americans seemed to agree. That which was created was deemed sacred.. They didn't go about destroying what God pronounced as "good"...perfection..

The most difficult thing to find in this world is a Christian. I myself fall short. Christianity and current cultural. social and economic structures are contradictory. Monastic structures come close, and even they fall short..Enculturation, growing up in an anti-Christian social and economic structure is very difficult to overcome.

The Book of Acts tells us everything was held in common.

"But perhaps more striking to our ears are the statements in which Luke tells us that these believers “would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds to all, as any had need.” He goes on to say, “no one claimed private ownership of any possessions, but everything they owned was held in common.”

Retired Monk -"Ideology is a disease"

polycarp2
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Poverty is avoided when the commandments/doctrines of the Bible are followed.

The greatest need of the poor is the salvation of accepting Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and committing to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible.

That is why Christians are given the Great Commission.

Perry's big prayer should have poverty eliminated by the end of the year. How much is that commission he gets for his prayer? Is the commision more in the prosperity gospel churches? Some have done an annointing sevice for a slight fee. [only performed by an annointed one...kind of like a laying on of hands, except the annointing is for mortgages, and car titles and such]

The illegitimate offspring of John Edwards, and Arnold Scharzeneggar won't be too poor. So only poor bastards are poor? Rich bastards will become poor because they are bastards. Most of the adopted children I have known were just fine.

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douglaslee
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Many Native American Nations had a greater understanding of "God":, the "Great Spirit" than we do. One example: Christian Scripture states God proclaimed His Creation as good. Native Americans seemed to agree. That which was created was deemed sacred.. They didn't go about destroying what God pronounced as "good"...perfection..

The most difficult thing to find in this world is a Christian. I myself fall short. Christianity and current cultural. social and economic structures are contradictory. Monastic structures come close, and even they fall short..Enculturation, growing up in an anti-Christian social and economic structure is very difficult to overcome.

The Book of Acts tells us everything was held in common.

"But perhaps more striking to our ears are the statements in which Luke tells us that these believers “would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds to all, as any had need.” He goes on to say, “no one claimed private ownership of any possessions, but everything they owned was held in common.”

Response

Your opinion is that the American Indians were a noble people you lived close to the land and thus were godly. Unfortunately living close to the earth never led them to God. I believe most of the Amerian Indian tribes were constantly at war with each other and thus were never civilized. We could argue that point for years, because that is past and the truth gets lost in the telling.

Now the the Bible is a written document and can be discussed.

Yes the early Christians tried Socialism/Communism (sharing goods in common), but I beleive that turned out to be a total failure even for Christians, because later in the New Testament you find the following statement.

I Timothy 5:8 states, "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

Socialism/Communism encourages irresponsible behavior so it never works.

A lot of people like to make the News Testament Beattitudes into commandments/doctrinies. A Christian shoud have an attitude of turning the other cheek and selling their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds to all, as any had need, but then what is the need of the person. The greatest need of the Atheist is to accept Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and commiting to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible, thus selling possessions and goods is not the right thing to do.

I believe in the three levels of action concept.

I believe the Bible teaches all things should be dealt with by the following three levels of action;
1) If it is good - accept it and nourish it.
2) If it is evil - rebuke it but tolerate it.
3) If it threatens your existence - destroy it before it destroys you. This is self defense, which both the individual and society have a right and responsibility to do.

The first two are from the New Testament of the Bible and represent the Law of Love. The third is from the Old Testament of the Bible and represents the Law of Purity/Self Defense. The New Testament deals more with personal responsibility (spiritual attitudes) and the Old Testament deals more with the preservation of society (physical actions). The Old Testament and the New Testament together present God's Law, a means of survival for a person, a nation and a world. No one should be forced to be a Christian, but all should be judged by Civil Law based on Christian Principles. All rebuke by Christians should be based on scripture from the Bible.

Tolerance is allowing for a mistake. Too much tolerance is a mistake. Tolerance is allowing for a mistake, too much tolerance is accepting an habitual mistake (Atheistic Lifestyle of sin).

The Church should rebuke sin/evil in obedience to God and the State should rebuke/execute evil/sin for health, safety and economic reasons.

The Church should not execute and the State should not define morality.

The Church should rebuke and define morality based on scripture from the Bible.

The State should also rebuke based on scripture from the Bible, but in a Democracy, the State can be controlled by either Christians or Atheists. If Christians control the State, Christian Principles will be encouraged and Atheistic Principles will be rebuked, but if Atheists control the State, Atheistic Principles (adultery, homosexuality, abortion, etc.) will be encouraged, and Christian Principles will be rebuked.

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clirus
Joined:
Jul. 21, 2010 11:51 am

We are required to love our neighbor, not judge our neighbor.

Where does the Bible tell you to first judge the poor and decide their worthiness before providing charity?

Was the Good Samaritan wrong by NOT first judging as the others who passed by the man in need before offering help?

Suppose you have a bunch of poor people (which we have). Even if some are poor due to their sins, isn't it just as sinful to not help them when you have the means to do so?

"What you did not do for the least of these you did not do for me."

God's sun rises on the evil and the good, and His rain falls on the unrighteous as well as the righteous.

It's ironic how so many outspoken Christians can refuse to follow Jesus' commands while so many who actually follow his commands dismiss all religion outright. Go figure.

Response

Atheists know the Bible and pervert the Bible to justify their beliefs and actions.

Atheists want to scare off Christians by accusing the Christians of being judgemental.

The good advice of the Bible (which Christians state) will always be considered judgemental by people that are involved in evil activity.

Physical help to a person in sin does nothing for them. If their heart has not been changed by accepting Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and committing to following the commandments/doctrine of the Bible, then the Socialism is like give an alcholic a drink.

In Socialism you give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, but with Christianity, you teach a man to fish and he feeds himself forever.

In Socialism you give a woman a fish and she will bring back another illegitimate child to be fed, but with Christianity, you teach a woman how to fish and she will find a husband that will feed her and the child.

I love it when Atheists say they know more about God than Christians. Now how silly is that?

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clirus
Joined:
Jul. 21, 2010 11:51 am

So, the Good Samaritan WAS wrong by not first judging the worthiness of his help for the man lying in the road (unlike the 2 self righteous pricks who previously passed him by). Your response was a bit ambiguous and fixated on atheism, but I'm not sure how that applies to my statement.

What Bible translation do you read? The SRP (self righteous prick) translation?

What I hate is when people like CLIRUS are seen by the world as a typical example of a Christian. You couldn't be any further from the essence of Jesus' teachings if you tried. If Jesus were participating in this thread, He would flag you as offensive before putting you on His to-the-furnace list.

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Laborisgood
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Currently Chatting

End. Fracking. Now!

California is already dealing with the worst drought in that state's history. So, the last thing residents needed was to learn that some of their dwindling water supply has been contaminated.

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