I just finished the Prophets Way and enjoyed the book greatly. Also having listened to the radio program a few times, I was struck by the very different direction noted in the narrative of the book as compared to the ideology expressed on the radio show.
I will try to keep my comments brief.
Just some background so that I am not linked to the neo-conservative trolls who apparently dominate the discussions.
I might also note that I am not a voter of either major political party. I’ve never voted for a Republican, and only once voted for a Democrat in my long voting history. My voting largely falls under marginal party affiliations: from the Greens to the Socialists, I’ve also voted for the Natural Law party a few times.
I guess you could say I’ve taken the “Red Pill” long ago when it was offered by one of my mentors, if I can be so bold to use a metaphor from a popular film.
The Prophets Way contains a very special understanding of the prophet in contemporary culture. It is in keeping with the understanding I learned in grad school while studying biblical literature. Conversely, the word denotes something like “prophecy” and is used to predict the future. I am not using the word prophet in the sense of one as a fortune teller who tells us of some future possibility.
Instead, I understand the prophet to be someone who takes a lonely stance for truth and justice, against popular opinion. Often times (but certainly not exclusively) a prophet stood against organized religious organizations, and their ritualistic observances which were devoid of concern for justice for the poor and downtrodden. This is clearly the definition and life trajectory of Herr Muller as described so eloquently in the narrative of the Prophets Way. A prophet, further, often stands outside of systems or structures all-together to witness something new that the ineffable source seeks to manifest using the prophet as his or her voice. In this context, the Prophets Way, is both old and new! We might ask ourselves too, is the ineffable source still speaking in our moment of HIStory? How we answer that question makes all the difference in the world.
Moreover, the prophet is often given over to prophetic experiences (again, many are noted in Tom’s book), describing the accounts of Herr Muller’s visions and other paranormal phenomena leading us to characterize this experience in psychological language which describe the attributes of what has been called the “ecstatic personality.” The Israelites identified people as nebi’im, because they were known to have had ecstatic experiences. Another attribute of the prophetic personality is that they often employ wisdom and cultic standards known to everyone in their own culutre, without us assuming that gives them a special relationship to institutional life. In other words, one cannot place them within their own religious or political boxes for the sake of manipulating their special message.
Prophets, moreover, are not reformers, protectors, pundits, nor maintainers of collective standards or institutions. They serve to give voice to the “sign of the times” as a warning to others and that the ineffable had something in mind toward renewal of the human enterprise through the metaphor of death and resurrection of the people.
So you may be asking after reading this, what is the point of this contribution?
I see a contradiction between the Prophets Way and what Tom currently advances via his political agenda. The prophetic voice does not engage within systems of power but clearly stands outside of them. They do this to insure the independence of their message. But more importantly, standing outside the systems of power, give the prophet a unique and clear reminder that personal death and resurrection are always ongoing activities of human social life; they also remind us that the ineffable source nudges us to reconsider what we need in this world of dwindling natural sources like water, food, and clothing. It reminds us to share what we have, rather than participate in the latest consumer fad. And it boldly asserts the value of humility against the siren calls of power. And everything associated with it.
Comments
"I see a contradiction between the Prophets Way and what Tom currently advances via his political agenda. The prophetic voice does not engage within systems of power but clearly stands outside of them"
Jesus overturned the tables of the moneychangers. There is a time to stand outside systems of power and a time to act from within.
Éirígí
Peter Berger, a noted sociologist, remarks that we write and rewrite our autobiography as we go through life, as we interpret and reinterpret the events involving ourselves. We could, theoretically, write one story one day, and another another day. I am fascinated by the facts that get told, and by the ones that pop up in memory at another time. How one interpret oneself at any one time in life is dependent on a variety of factors. And this includes working within systems. But that has nothing to do with what I am talking about.
Good points in your lead essay, ecosocialist. Prophetic voices must come from the margins -- from the liminalities of culture -- or else by definition they are the voice of status quo.
I believe a number of us here share your voting history, at least regarding the two status quo parties. You can easily tell us apart from the "neoconservatives" as you called them, especially the ones that frequent this site. And many of us have survived while not agreeing with some of Thom's views on the current status quo.
Nice comparison to "liminalit[y]" which tests the worthiness of the threshold experience for those who seek to cross it - and if they do so - the gift they bring back to their communities. It is interesting to note that the "prophet" in biblical literature shares much of the ethnographic models of the shamanic personality since he or she is able to abridge the experiences between two very different worlds. In traveling the world, one finds the healer to be men or woman who lives on the margins of the social fabric and not completely integrated into community life. This idea is highly developed in the work of Mircea Eliade. Prophets (and this is true of shamanic healers) arise in a time of crisis to assist a community in understanding the trouble that they are going through in order to encourage them to undergo a personal death and resurrection by meeting the threshold experience on their own terms either through a formal vision quest or some other avenue of disruption. Essentially that carries three modes of engagement: seperation, threshold experience, and reincorporation. This all leads one to a new way of being in the world. Many are called, few actually make the transition.
We've been having discussions about the structure of all this. Here are a couple of recent threads:
It's so difficult to stop and say...
Republican Neoliberalism is Touching Us All
Ren, thanks for the links: I poked my nose in, and it all looks too analytical for my taste. But thanks nevertheless. The only two posts I can relate to are the one you posted on Duane Elgin - one of the "fathers" of the current environmental movement. That is indeed a great book. The other concerns your mention of this site being "magical" back in 2004. Sounds like there is more of a story to be told... :) Anyway, Ive had my say, and will return to being rather than thinking...
Being is a good place to be. I think that's about all we've managed to say with all our words.
Yes, it was magical when I first discovered this site. I still have friends I'm in touch with elsewhere. They left to be, for the most part.
Ren, in the spirit of the invitation, may I extend one to you: when you talk of "magic" via internet forums you might want to go over to CD and participate in the discussions on their forum. There is some of the best commentary I've read anywhere. And often times the contributors to the discussions provide more insight than those contributing (so called) progressive articles. (I might also mention that there is no censorship on that site compaired to this one.)
CommonDreams? I have friends who post there. What you say doesn't surprise me.
I'm not too busy on the internet anymore. I have my counter culture narrative and occasionally I can jog someone enough it feels like I've done something. I don't try too hard anymore though.
I understand. For me it is an educational opportunity: nothing more.
I've read bits and pieces of your "counter cultural narrative" and see confluence. Not that this matters or is even important, but I remember a long time ago when a group united under shared personal philisophic experiences to create magic. So in the spirit of that claim, I offer another counter cultural narrative:
Being hard to pin down is a virtue. Constantly changing every place becomes home!
Look for the unity in all things. And yet, be not attached to that very philosophy that "we are all one"... for I've learned that all things are mere rhetoric and presumptions based on philosophy and magically change moment by moment from one thing to the next. Call it a "compassionate place of 'not'-knowing"!
One might apply this philosophy to every aspect of life - yes, even a non-philosophy is a philosophy!!! :)
One might apply it to love relationships, eating habits, spiritual practices, political views, and the manifestation of that in community work, writings and everything else that pours through collective being. It is a way of ego-less being while keeping the ego intact... kapish?! :)
So what does that look like?
That means I'm not attached to what my relationship "configuration" looks like. I could be with ten people, one person, no people, "committed", not committed, with a home(s) and kids, or dance once upon a blue moon. I have no rules except a strong commitment to right-living, compassionate living, honesty, truth, love, honor - a commitment to the whole, and of course all of that based in a deep level of integrity. Recently, that tends to look like multiple heterosexual lovers (although I have no problem with diverse sexual orientations) with different degrees of intimacy, all knowing about each other if they so choose.
With food, it means I eat everything and anything (except meat) and as long as it "meets" the moment. I call myself an intentional, conscious intuitive - that means, I check inside, see what feels right, pay attention to cycles and seasons, let my social consciousness of my ecological and social footprint play a deep roll, and then merge with the beings, that we call food, knowing that even though I am "consuming" it, it is still my lover (ie. Joana Macy's concept of World as Lover; World as Self)! :)
Politically speaking - I married myself off to the Universe - that means I have dedicated myself to a life of service to the whole. My intention is that all my thoughts, my feelings and my actions be directed toward a compassionate service toward the whole. That means, I don't see sides, but, paradoxically work on the side of justice; but all of us as one gorgeous body that merges together in interdependent co-arising!
Spiritually speaking - the moment yokes me. I have no teachers, no philosophies, no religion or saint I have pledged my life to, or rituals that I repeatedly follow, no thought that this or that is "the" way to "enlightenment", YET, paradoxically, EVERYONE becomes my teacher, my philosophy, my religion, my ritual, my path, per se. I live and work to integrate them all as the integrated parts of the Self that they already are.
In short... I love the Universe and I am committed to shaping every single aspect and practice of my life to be of service to that Whole.
It's a good way you've chosen.
My ex used to complain because she couldn't pin me down, lol. I guess she needed that.
What's to pin down? In a hundred years from now laughter may be the norm instead of the exception. And if the record can be recovered off of sites like this one, it might provide a treasure trove of humor for those yet to come... I would hate to think that human consciousness is duplicating itself a hundred years into the future from our example. :)
Exactly, what's to pin down? Ego. A self created fantasy.
:)
Well put.
I am thinking of traveling to Mt. Athos next summer, and if the money holds out, to visit Egypt where some desert monks still live in caves. Maybe there is something to learn about expunging ego from those who have crossed the threshold and live in liminal time as a full time occupation. A friend of mine met a Buddhist monk who was living in a cave while traveling in Thailand last year; subsequently he stayed on for three weeks. While he cannot articulate the exchange the experience invoked, he nevertheless noted that something shifted and he became another person as a result. His priorities seemed not to matter any longer and he said he took on a lightness that he never had before. I am often taken by the guises worn by self-importance: its many shapes, sizes, masks, mostly its overriding superiority often in conflict with the things known by simple people; the homeless, those marginalized by the system, and those disfigured by social contempt. Those voices rarely -- if ever -- get traction in places like this one. Of course, their world is/has the disquieting effect of its own humility... something I like to remind myself of every day. The last thing I want to do is become part of the system where the dead and dying inch along the highways in their metal coffins at rush hour; or those who need to rub elbows with the elites while lying to themselves that any of it really matters or makes a difference in the grand design.
That trip is certainly a dead end...
Simply put a prophet of the Old Testament was someone chosen by God to be his spokesman. They were asked by God to hold the people of Israel accounable for the many problems of their own doing. In doing so they were not exactly popular people. They stood up for the poor and oppressed because these things are important to God and were usually forgotten by the people. The prophets were known to do some amazing things and occasionally spoke of future events, however, these things were not what made a person a prophet. What definded a phophet was his honesty with the people concerning the problems of their day. Whether the prophet was confronting an ordinary person or a king he spoke honestly of the events in their lives that lead to the problems they were experiencing and what needed to be done to resolve them. Some did what the phophet said, some did not.
God choose individuals to be prophets because He knew they were trustworthy. He knew they were up to the job being put before them. Up until God called them into service they were ordinary people living ordinary lives. Most of the prophets of the Old Testament paid a high price to do what was asked of them. Some paid for it with their lives.
Prophetic commissioning is not an either/or proposition.
May you find enchantment, even reenchantment in your journey along the razor's edge, ecosocialist.
Ah, the razors edge: the only place anything is really happening...and for those who understand, may it continue...
the frothy edge was a term used in the integral scene. It refered to the area with the greatest action as part of a wave. the frothy edge of a wave is where all the action is.
The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight was the first of Hartmann that I read, The Prophet's Way was the second. I was kind of dissappointed in the second as the first was so good. I also read it at the tail end of a long spiritual search after so many new-age books...
For years a question stuck in my mind, like a koan from the Kosmos, just for me....what would an enlightened person do today if one were here?
the What is Enlightenment folks just seemed like snake oil salesmen. The Big Bald Guy seemed to have lost his way
What Thom is doing now, seems to be about the most enlightened course of action to take. More religion, spirituality, god or whatever isn't going to help us now.
More religion, spirituality, god or whatever isn't going to help us now.
Ah, the Knower speaks.
Ren, I will defer to your seniority until I get to know the players... but giving some thought about what you said on the other thread...
Can't say I know the players on this board anymore. I haven't been interacting much for over a year, and the names have changed. I'm not paying much attention to patterns of thought in posts. I don't need to.
If I can make any sense of what I wrote, I'll be happy to try. It's difficult to present a large body of patterns in words, especially in this constrained environment.
Ah, the Knower speaks.
volumes.
:) Hi, Kenny!
Cheers for cho ku rey -- did I spell that correctly?
Hey Ren, Hows it going bro? Hi ecosocialist, no worries re the symbol. Glad you appreciate it :-) Its spelled Cho Ku Rei I believe but hey, its all in the intent right ;-)
ren, ken, would you please enlighten me? Did I pull an Uncle Rummy with an epistemic paradox?
The Unknown
As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.
Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing
It's a difficult problem to discuss, MEJ. I would say you need to look into your own mind and decide yourself.
The problem with Rummy was he was deciding for others and spouting moronic tautologies at the same time. And when our "legitimized" representatives put "qualified" people in positions to make decisions, that creates a certain potential for problems that are of a different order than you looking into your own mind and deciding for yourself.
the frothy edge was a term used in the integral scene. It refered to the area with the greatest action as part of a wave. the frothy edge of a wave is where all the action is.
The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight was the first of Hartmann that I read, The Prophet's Way was the second. I was kind of dissappointed in the second as the first was so good. I also read it at the tail end of a long spiritual search after so many new-age books...
For years a question stuck in my mind, like a koan from the Kosmos, just for me....what would an enlightened person do today if one were here?
the What is Enlightenment folks just seemed like snake oil salesmen. The Big Bald Guy seemed to have lost his way
What Thom is doing now, seems to be about the most enlightened course of action to take. More religion, spirituality, god or whatever isn't going to help us now.
I hope to someday become as enlightened as some (certainly not all) who frequent this site. Perhaps reading one of Thom's books might help. I've been meaning to for years, but good intentions do not equal enlightenment. I feel I have occasional bursts of enlightenment that always manage to quickly disappear into the crowd of my opinions, pre-conceived notions and the desire to best the others I come in contact with.
Thom does appear to be onto something very special which is why I came here to begin with. However, the enlightened souls I have encountered here are what keeps me coming back. Now, let me go find those books!
Hey Labor, it's relatively easy to experience a temporary state of enlightenment. It's about impossible to make enlightenment a permanent trait.
ren, You're not tricking me into that wasteland.
Hey Labor, it's relatively easy to experience a temporary state of enlightenment. It's about impossible to make enlightenment a permanent trait.
ren, You're not tricking me into that wasteland.
Your mind?
a mind is a terrible wasteland...
Lol.
I've always found a liberal supply of beer to be quite effective in keeping my "bursts of enlightenment" to a minimum.
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Ben Franklin
To ecosocialist,
Poitical agenda?.
Free Will does exist. That is, the Free Will to help humanity. He is Blessed who excercises that Free Will to be of Service.
Thom's intention is pure.
Om Shanti.