Has MLK's dream been achieved?

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I think it has. I'm sure you all will agree that being a racist in America is much, much more dangerous than being a minority. Racists are social outcasts. In business, you had better keep any racial predjudices deep under wraps or you will be destroyed. And rightly so. That said, is racism dead? Of course not. But it is on life support and fading fast. I am a conservative, we long for a color blind society. I know only one racist, and he is in no position to oppress anyone. He is not relevant. Trying to convert every confederate flag flying, pick up truck driving, tobacco chewing, red neck is a colossal waste of time. You cannot cure everybody of their paranoia or mental issues. So why even try? Again, they are in no position to oppress anyone. Let them wallow in their misery.

Now there is a new evil that we must contend with. The accusation of racism is being used to destroy decent people. Once a person has been branded a racist, it is up to that person to prove that he is not. Guilty until proven innocent. And as you know, it is impossible to prove innocence. This is not only un American, it is evil. If we truly want to achieve Dr. Kings dream, we must not tolerate this. People are making assumptions that other people are racist without a shred of evidence to back it up. Unless you have real, solid evidence, stop the attacks. Facts not feelings. The American people know racism when they see it. WE don't need some hateful nit wit to decide it for us.

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rigel1
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Rigel, respectfully.... Are you fucking kidding me?

We live in a time of contradiction. At the same time we have an African American President, we have a Republican front runner who has a hunting lodge named Nigger Head and no one blinks an eye. Racism is ostricized my ass. The most profitable radio show hosts in the entire country are blatant racists and no one is running them off the air. After 9-11 and also after Obama was elected, there was a massive upswell of the most racist rhetoric since before the civil rights movement. This has largely gone unquestioned and completely unabated by the public or the powers that be.

Maybe you should look at that speech again. http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/mlkihaveadream.htm

But one hundred years later, the Negro still is not free. One hundred years later, the life of the Negro is still sadly crippled by the manacles of segregation and the chains of discrimination. One hundred years later, the Negro lives on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. One hundred years later, the Negro is still languished in the corners of American society and finds himself an exile in his own land. And so we've come here today to dramatize a shameful condition.

Has really that much changed? We have traded de jure segragetion for de facto segregation. Minorities, by and large, are still condemned to intergenerational poverty. Largely islotated in urban neighborhoods. Marginalized by the education system and systemic poverty inherently created by unregulated Capitalism and the active suppression of labor unions and rights organizations on the part of Congress and state legislatures. Still earning pennies to the dollar for the same work as a white male. The reinstitution of voting restrictions which are specifically targeted to restrict voting access for minorities and the poor. Minorities' disproportionate imprisonment and subsequent use as slave labor while incarcerated... All of this truly underscores just how far we have NOT come since King gave his speech. The Dream is far far from reality.

ah2
Joined:
Dec. 13, 2010 9:00 pm
Quote ah2:

Rigel, respectfully.... Are you fucking kidding me?

We live in a time of contradiction. At the same time we have an African American President, we have a Republican front runner who has a hunting lodge named Nigger Head and no one blinks an eye. Racism is ostricized my ass. The most profitable radio show hosts in the entire country are blatant racists and no one is running them off the air. Maybe you should look at that speech again.

Nope. Not kidding. I live in the real world and I can't find much racism. If you were paying any attention you would realize that the "N----- head" incedent was covered extensively and not many people claimed that they liked the name. People actually did "blink an eye." It was a pretty big deal.

I don't know what talk show hosts you are refering to. Is the man with the black producer one of them? What about the one who has a black man guest host for him from time to time. Or the one who supports Herman Cain? Is he the one? Oh crap, all of these examples are from the same man. And he happens to be the number one rated host in America.

Now. You have accused people of being racist, yet you do not make any effort to back this up. Wanting someone to be a racist does not make it so. Are we really supposed to damn someone as a racist because you claim they are. Sounds like fascism to me.

Believe it or not, you do not have to start out with a profanity to get my attention. Totally unnecessary.

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rigel1
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Jan. 31, 2011 6:49 am
Quote rigel1:
Quote ah2:

Rigel, respectfully.... Are you fucking kidding me?

We live in a time of contradiction. At the same time we have an African American President, we have a Republican front runner who has a hunting lodge named Nigger Head and no one blinks an eye. Racism is ostricized my ass. The most profitable radio show hosts in the entire country are blatant racists and no one is running them off the air. Maybe you should look at that speech again.

Nope. Not kidding. I live in the real world and I can't find much racism. If you were paying any attention you would realize that the "N----- head" incedent was covered extensively and not many people claimed that they liked the name. People actually did "blink an eye." It was a pretty big deal.

I don't know what talk show hosts you are refering to. Is the man with the black producer one of them? What about the one who has a black man guest host for him from time to time. Or the one who supports Herman Cain? Is he the one? Oh crap, all of these examples are from the same man. And he happens to be the number one rated host in America.

Now. You have accused people of being racist, yet you do not make any effort to back this up. Wanting someone to be a racist does not make it so. Are we really supposed to damn someone as a racist because you claim they are. Sounds like fascism to me.

Believe it or not, you do not have to start out with a profanity to get my attention. Totally unnecessary.

1. A big deal is the RNC throwing him out of the debates.

2.One of the best ways to legitimize a racist perspective or comment is to ask a Black person who you are paying an inordinate amount or money to agree with you (Black Producer) or someone who has internalized the racist discourse and actually thinks it is true (Herman Cain). The latter in particular requires that said individual has "made it" and is now so far removed from the realities of the urban poor that they have no Earthly clue what they are talking about. Cain built his business right after the civil rights movement and grew his business at a time that was very friendly to small business owners and labor. He seems to think that his exerperience applies to present day conditions and can be generalized to the entire population. I bet Cain even actively participates in the elimination of the very student loans he most certainly relied on to afford tuition at Morehouse College.

3. I really like it when people throw around terms like they are swear words because they don't really know what they mean. Calling someone a racist is not a characteristic of Facism. BEING racist and denouncing someone for their racial background and questioning their citizenship and membership in a hyper-nationalist community, that would be Facism. Remind you of anyone? Try the Tea Party, Sarah Palin, anyone who ever even considered the birther movement to be legitimate, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, the Koch Brothers, anyone who supported the Arizona immigration law, anyone who thinks you need a photo ID to vote, ... need I go on? Is it hitting close to home yet?

What is more profane? A four letter word or your denial of the stark realities that minorities continue to face in this country? The word matched the ignorance of your statements.

ah2
Joined:
Dec. 13, 2010 9:00 pm
Quote ah2:
Quote rigel1:
Quote ah2:

Rigel, respectfully.... Are you fucking kidding me?

We live in a time of contradiction. At the same time we have an African American President, we have a Republican front runner who has a hunting lodge named Nigger Head and no one blinks an eye. Racism is ostricized my ass. The most profitable radio show hosts in the entire country are blatant racists and no one is running them off the air. Maybe you should look at that speech again.

Nope. Not kidding. I live in the real world and I can't find much racism. If you were paying any attention you would realize that the "N----- head" incedent was covered extensively and not many people claimed that they liked the name. People actually did "blink an eye." It was a pretty big deal.

I don't know what talk show hosts you are refering to. Is the man with the black producer one of them? What about the one who has a black man guest host for him from time to time. Or the one who supports Herman Cain? Is he the one? Oh crap, all of these examples are from the same man. And he happens to be the number one rated host in America.

Now. You have accused people of being racist, yet you do not make any effort to back this up. Wanting someone to be a racist does not make it so. Are we really supposed to damn someone as a racist because you claim they are. Sounds like fascism to me.

Believe it or not, you do not have to start out with a profanity to get my attention. Totally unnecessary.

1. A big deal is the RNC throwing him out of the debates.

2.One of the best ways to legitimize a racist perspective or comment is to ask a Black person who you are paying an inordinate amount or money to agree with you (Black Producer) or someone who has internalized the racist discourse and actually thinks it is true (Herman Cain). The latter in particular requires that said individual has "made it" and is now so far removed from the realities of the urban poor that they have no Earthly clue what they are talking about. Cain built his business right after the civil rights movement and grew his business at a time that was very friendly to small business owners and labor. He seems to think that his exerperience applies to present day conditions and can be generalized to the entire population. I bet Cain even actively participates in the elimination of the very student loans he most certainly relied on to afford tuition at Morehouse College.

3. I really like it when people throw around terms like they are swear words because they don't really know what they mean. Calling someone a racist is not a characteristic of Facism. BEING racist and denouncing someone for their racial background and questioning their citizenship and membership in a hyper-nationalist community, that would be Facism. Remind you of anyone? Try the Tea Party, Sarah Palin, anyone who ever even considered the birther movement to be legitimate, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, the Koch Brothers, anyone who supported the Arizona immigration law, anyone who thinks you need a photo ID to vote, ... need I go on? Is it hitting close to home yet?

What is more profane? A four letter word or your denial of the stark realities that minorities continue to face in this country? The word matched the ignorance of your statements.

Speaking of ignorance. You make a gross assumption. That YOU know the real, sinister reason that Rush hires and supports blacks. What a load of unsubstanciated crap. It is up to you to prove that he is a racist. It is not up to him to prove that he is not. I hear your words, lets see your proof.

I'm glad that you brought up the Arizona situation because you do not understand it. I do understand it because I am a conservative. We simply do not want our country invaded. We have no clue who these people are. Anyone can slip across the border. Last year, I got sick. My medical bills cost me $3000 bucks out of my pocket. Had I been an illegal invader, my cost would have been zero. I don't like giving my hard earned money away. I'm not a money machine to be tapped into by anyone who sneaks into my country. Arizona does not have the jobs nor the money to pay for anyone in the world who strolls into their state. What about the prison space for the violent illegals? Why should Arizona be forced to pay for other countries criminals? We have over 300 million people in our country. I'm feeling a bit crowded already. We must create 100,000 new jobs/month just to keep up with immigration. How many more people do we need. I don't want my entire country paved over.

I am of Scottish decent. If my country were invaded by 20 million scots, I WOULD WANT THEM OUT! But we do not share a border with Scotland, so this is unlikely. So you see, its not really about race after all.

Since I am a conservative, I can educate you on conservative thought. You are blessed to have me in this forum. You no longer have to make assumptions. Just ask me. I will tell you.

Now think about what you said earlier. We came from slavery, lynchings, Jim Crow and segragation to a point where blacks are better off in this country than anywhere else in the world. And what gets you upset? A fifty year old racial insult painted on a rock out in the middle of nowhere. If that is your best example of racism, we are doing even better than I thought.

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rigel1
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Jan. 31, 2011 6:49 am

rigel1,

Read Colorblind by Tim Wise. Please. And then share the book with every person you know.

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Garrett78
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Sep. 3, 2010 8:20 am

rigel1 wrote: " Last year, I got sick. My medical bills cost me $3000 bucks out of my pocket. Had I been an illegal invader, my cost would have been zero.

poly replies: Perhaps you should have claimed Norwegian citizenship for a day and saved a few thousand. if that's really the case.

.MLK's dream is nowhere near accomplished. It included social/economic justice for all races and ethnic groups. Everyone. If anything,, we're further away from that today than we were twenty years ago. ago.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease".

polycarp2
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote polycarp2:

rigel1 wrote: " Last year, I got sick. My medical bills cost me $3000 bucks out of my pocket. Had I been an illegal invader, my cost would have been zero.

poly replies: Perhaps you should have claimed Norwegian citizenship for a day and saved a few thousand. if that's really the case.

.MLK's dream is nowhere near accomplished. It included social/economic justice for all races and ethnic groups. Everyone. If anything,, we're further away from that today than we were twenty years ago. ago.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease".

I could not claim Norwegian citizenship. I don't lie for money. There already is social/economic justice. Anyone, even in the poorest neighborhood is free go as far as their talents and hard work will take them. The opportunity is there. If you work hard and try to educate yourself, you will get out of poverty. Some do and some don't. It probably won't happen overnight. It may take ten or fifiteen years of blood, sweat and tears. But the goal can be reached. The choice is theirs. Dr. Kings PRIMARY focus was Jim Crow laws, racism and segregation. In all but rare instances,these things have been abolished. One is much, much, more likely to be hired by a fortune 500 hundred company because he is black rather then kept out for the same reason. If you are a quality employee and are black, you are in demand. Those who are not in demand are:

The Fat

Anyone over 40 or 50 years of age

The short. If everything else is equal, then the tall individual will get the offer.

The ugly. Unless they have a unique skill They are usually screwed. (figuratively, not literally)

This not always the case, but the disadvantages are clear and profound.

Should we have affirmative action to protect these victims of discrimination? Being black is a cakewalk compared to being one of these folks.

rigel1's picture
rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 6:49 am
Quote rigel1:

[quote=polycarp2]

rigel1 wrote: " Last year, I got sick. My medical bills cost me $3000 bucks out of my pocket. Had I been an illegal invader, my cost would have been zero.

With single payer national health care, you wouldn't have had to pay that, so you should be in favor of single payer national health care, shouldn't you?

I could not claim Norwegian citizenship. I don't lie for money.

Nice to know; most conservatives do. Most Republicans do. That's how they get elected and it's how they continue to fool the fools in the Tea Party. The easiest way to tell if a Republican is lying is to determine whether his/her lips are moving.

There already is social/economic justice.

Yes, for those who already have the great preponderance of the country's wealth.

Anyone, even in the poorest neighborhood is free go as far as their talents and hard work will take them. The opportunity is there.

Nonsense. Before there can be any true equality of opportunity, there must first be a certain minimum level of equality of condition. If that doesn't exist, the ability to rise is mostly offset by the handicap of starting with nothing, rags-to-riches stories and their supporting cultural mythology notwithstanding.

If you work hard and try to educate yourself, you will get out of poverty. Some do and some don't.

So, which is it? If you work hard and educate yourself, you will get out of poverty, how does it follow that some do and some don't? That's contradictory and thus, nonsensical.

It probably won't happen overnight. It may take ten or fifiteen years of blood, sweat and tears. But the goal can be reached. The choice is theirs.

Oh, you mean like the millions who didn't create the current mess and crosscurrents of Wall Street corruption they're swept up in and suffering for, despite their years of hard work and faith in what has proven to be an amoral and immoral economic structure? Folk myth.

Dr. Kings PRIMARY focus was Jim Crow laws, racism and segregation. In all but rare instances,these things have been abolished.

Oversimplification. MLK was not assassinated until he began delivering a prophetic message of global socioeconomic justice and opposition to the Viet Nam War along with his opposition to racism. As to Jim Crow, racism, and segregation having been abolished, legal abolition is not the same thing as sociocultural practice, and nobody should be so confused as to hallucinate that it is.

Being black is a cakewalk compared to being one of these folks.

If you're not black yourself and you've said this, you don't know your Heinie from a hole in the ground.

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Ulysses
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Believe it or not, you do not have to start out with a profanity to get my attention. Totally unnecessary.

That remark implies feigned shock.

Speaking of ignorance. You make a gross assumption. That YOU know the real, sinister reason that Rush hires and supports blacks. What a load of unsubstanciated crap. It is up to you to prove that he is a racist. It is not up to him to prove that he is not. I hear your words, lets see your proof.

It's "u-n-s-u-b-s-t-a-n-t-i-a-t-e-d."

The proof lies in Scumbaugh calling Obama a "Halfrican American" in order to try to delegitimize Obama's personal black experience in the simple minds of Scumbaugh's listeners. It also lies in the fact that Scumbaugh refers to Obama as a "man child." This is dog whistle rhetoric which Scumbaugh knows will evoke the same understanding as the term "boy" in the heads of his flying winged monkey listeners. He knows he doesn't dare to actually call Obama "boy," so he substitutes "man child," knowing that his racist minions will understand it as "boy," while still giving him what he thinks is plausible deniability. If he were as smart as he likes to think he is, he'd know that he's not fooling anybody.

I don't want my entire country paved over.

Don't you? Then why do you pinheads in Arizona usually oppose environmentalism in favor of industrialization and off-road use of the desert? The only green thing you care about is the color of money.

I am of Scottish decent.

Well, I guess that's better than being of Scottish indecent.

Since I am a conservative, I can educate you on conservative thought.

With apologies to Gandhi, it would be nice if there were some.

You are blessed to have me in this forum.

Golly! I should've known! Mea culpa! Please, please, pretty please, tell us where you put the Ark and the Tablets!

Now think about what you said earlier. We came from slavery, lynchings, Jim Crow and segragation to a point where blacks are better off in this country than anywhere else in the world. And what gets you upset? A fifty year old racial insult painted on a rock out in the middle of nowhere. If that is your best example of racism, we are doing even better than I thought.

What's disturbing about it, jackass, is that the rock you refer to has occupied a location of prominence on property owned by an aspirant to the Presidency of the United States, who, based on the fact that he didn't have it removed until he just had to, has demonstrated that he probably sleeps in a bedsheet rather than on one, and lots of us outside of your crossburning circle just aren't at ease with the idea of a pinstriped Klansman running American domestic policy. Maybe, just maybe, even a Klown like you Kan understand that, but I won't make booK on it.

Ulysses's picture
Ulysses
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote Ulysses:
Quote rigel1:

[quote=polycarp2]

rigel1 wrote: " Last year, I got sick. My medical bills cost me $3000 bucks out of my pocket. Had I been an illegal invader, my cost would have been zero.

With single payer national health care, you wouldn't have had to pay that, so you should be in favor of single payer national health care, shouldn't you?

I could not claim Norwegian citizenship. I don't lie for money.

Nice to know; most conservatives do. Most Republicans do. That's how they get elected and it's how they continue to fool the fools in the Tea Party. The easiest way to tell if a Republican is lying is to determine whether his/her lips are moving.

There already is social/economic justice.

Yes, for those who already have the great preponderance of the country's wealth.

Anyone, even in the poorest neighborhood is free go as far as their talents and hard work will take them. The opportunity is there.

Nonsense. Before there can be any true equality of opportunity, there must first be a certain minimum level of equality of condition. If that doesn't exist, the ability to rise is mostly offset by the handicap of starting with nothing, rags-to-riches stories and their supporting cultural mythology notwithstanding.

If you work hard and try to educate yourself, you will get out of poverty. Some do and some don't.

So, which is it? If you work hard and educate yourself, you will get out of poverty, how does it follow that some do and some don't? That's contradictory and thus, nonsensical.

It probably won't happen overnight. It may take ten or fifiteen years of blood, sweat and tears. But the goal can be reached. The choice is theirs.

Oh, you mean like the millions who didn't create the current mess and crosscurrents of Wall Street corruption they're swept up in and suffering for, despite their years of hard work and faith in what has proven to be an amoral and immoral economic structure? Folk myth.

Dr. Kings PRIMARY focus was Jim Crow laws, racism and segregation. In all but rare instances,these things have been abolished.

Oversimplification. MLK was not assassinated until he began delivering a prophetic message of global socioeconomic justice and opposition to the Viet Nam War along with his opposition to racism. As to Jim Crow, racism, and segregation having been abolished, legal abolition is not the same thing as sociocultural practice, and nobody should be so confused as to hallucinate that it is.

Being black is a cakewalk compared to being one of these folks.

If you're not black yourself and you've said this, you don't know your Heinie from a hole in the ground.

rigel1's picture
rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 6:49 am
Quote rigel1:
Quote Ulysses:
Quote rigel1:
Quote polycarp2:

rigel1 wrote: " Last year, I got sick. My medical bills cost me $3000 bucks out of my pocket. Had I been an illegal invader, my cost would have been zero.

.

With single payer national health care, you wouldn't have had to pay that, so you should be in favor of single payer national health care, shouldn't you?.

Different sublject. Stay on topic.

I could not claim Norwegian citizenship. I don't lie for money.

.

Nice to know; most conservatives do. Most Republicans do. That's how they get elected and it's how they continue to fool the fools in the Tea Party. The easiest way to tell if a Republican is lying is to determine whether his/her lips are moving..[/quote]

What about liberals? They don't lie? They lie less than conservatives? That's one hell of an assumption to make. I guess you believe that Holder is telling the whole truth about fast and furious. Why waste your time making accusations that you cannot prove?

There already is social/economic justice.

Yes, for those who already have the great preponderance of the country's wealth.

Anyone, even in the poorest neighborhood is free go as far as their talents and hard work will take them. The opportunity is there.
Nonsense. Before there can be any true equality of opportunity, there must first be a certain minimum level of equality of condition. If that doesn't exist, the ability to rise is mostly offset by the handicap of starting with nothing, rags-to-riches stories and their supporting cultural mythology notwithstanding.
So the thousands of people who have done exactly as say are lying?

If you work hard and try to educate yourself, you will get out of poverty. Some do and some don't[quote]

[quote]So, which is it? If you work hard and educate yourself, you will get out of poverty, how does it follow that some do and some don't? That's contradictory and thus, nonsensical.[quote]

You ask a question and then say nonsense before you get the answer. Patience my son. The ones who give maximum effort have an excellent chance of success.[quote]

[quote]It probably won't happen overnight. It may take ten or fifiteen years of blood, sweat and tears. But the goal can be reached. The choice is theirs.

Oh, you mean like the millions who didn't create the current mess and crosscurrents of Wall Street corruption they're swept up in and suffering for, despite their years of hard work and faith in what has proven to be an amoral and immoral economic structure? Folk myth.

I never made more than $25,000 until I reached the age of 35. I blamed no one. I kept at it until I succeeded.Not a folk myth. It's my life story.[quote]

[quote]Dr. Kings PRIMARY focus was Jim Crow laws, racism and segregation. In all but rare instances,these things have been abolished.

Oversimplification. MLK was not assassinated until he began delivering a prophetic message of global socioeconomic justice and opposition to the Viet Nam War along with his opposition to racism. As to Jim Crow, racism, and segregation having been abolished, legal abolition is not the same thing as sociocultural practice, and nobody should be so confused as to hallucinate that it is.

Being black is a cakewalk compared to being one of these folks.
If you're not black yourself and you've said this, you don't know your Heinie from a hole in the ground..

I don't have to be black, I just have to be observant. i have worked for large companies before and I currently work in big pharma. I'm an insider. I know how it works.

rigel1's picture
rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 6:49 am
Quote rigel1:
Quote Ulysses:

[quote=rigel1]

[quote=polycarp2]

With single payer national health care, you wouldn't have had to pay that, so you should be in favor of single payer national health care, shouldn't you?.

Single payer is a different subject for a different time. I chose the topic. Please stay on topic.

Nice to know; most conservatives do. Most Republicans do. That's how they get elected and it's how they continue to fool the fools in the Tea Party. The easiest way to tell if a Republican is lying is to determine whether his/her lips are moving.

And liberals don't lie? Puh-leeeeze. Unless you can provide the stats to prove this, then keep your holier than though crap to yourself.

Oh, you mean like the millions who didn't create the current mess and crosscurrents of Wall Street corruption they're swept up in and suffering for, despite their years of hard work and faith in what has proven to be an amoral and immoral economic structure? Folk myth..

I never earned more than $25k until I reached the age of 35. I blamed no one but myself. This was not the fault of some wall street mogal, and I had no claim to his money. But, I kept at it until I succeeded. Not a folk myth. It's my life's story.

If you're not black yourself and you've said this, you don't know your Heinie from a hole in the ground..

I have worked for fortune 500 companies before and I currently work for "big pharma." I am an insider. I know first hand the emphasis that these companies place on hiring and retaining black employees. I do know my arse from a hole in the ground.

I copied the below statement from another post that I made. Is there ANY outrage over liberal racism?

And now a "lady" occupier who happens to be a teacher is blaming the Jews. She wants all of the Zionist Jews to be driven out of the country. I don't have a link but I personally heard her say this on the news. She is now a former teacher. Since making this racist remark she has been fired. Since there is obviously racists in this movement, is it now okay to brand the entire movement as racist? If we use the progressive standard then the anwer is obviously yes.

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rigel1
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Jan. 31, 2011 6:49 am

Sadly, history textbooks and the media have influenced many into believing utter nonsense, such as the idea that the US is a land of equal opportunity, and that Dr. King was about nothing more than ending Jim Crow laws. Or that the US operates as a free market, something rigel said in another thread recently.

rigel, you really ought to take some time to read and think critically about the following: http://www.timwise.org/2011/09/getting-what-we-deserve-wealth-race-and-entitlement-in-america/#more-868. It's long, but hopefully you have the necessary attention span and openness to factual data.

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Garrett78
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Sep. 3, 2010 8:20 am
Quote rigel1:

I think it has. ... Racists are social outcasts. In business, you had better keep any racial prejudices deep under wraps or you will be destroyed. And rightly so. That said, is racism dead? Of course not. But it is on life support and fading fast...I know only one racist, and he is in no position to oppress anyone. ...

You know a racist? And that's your evidence?

Your definition of racism is completely ridiculous. Racism is not one person making a racist remark or two. It is not even if a radio host has hired a black person or not. These things are surface issues and really are of little significance by themselves.

You seem to have a trivial definition of racism that entails red necks driving around in trucks or something.

Racism is about housing segregation - which still exists. It is about bias in criminal sentencing - which still exists. It is about executions, high unemployment rate, job status and opportunities. The racial gap in incomes is as high as it was 20 years ago.

Whites have eliminated Jim crow laws and learned to keep their mouths shut - but all the statistics regarding disparities between whites and blacks still exist.

The next time you make a claim, try backing it up with some kind of evidence.

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Dr. Econ
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

The callback rates with two identical resumes where one person merely has a black sounding name indicate that we are not even close. When lenders arent disproprotionately pushing black people into sub-par deals. When taxis dont ignore them. When minorities arent disproportionately arrested for ___, and given harsher sentences.

Yes, it is closeted now in that we arent burning crosses in people's yards and there is only one line for services. But the institution is still very strong. Because its not visible, many people dont realize its happening, whether or not its happening to them. The closeted institutional racism in the system is called white privelege.

MLK or civil rights leaders past or present would not look at the statistics and think the dream was achieved.

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Dr Mario Kart
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
With single payer national health care, you wouldn't have had to pay that, so you should be in favor of single payer national health care, shouldn't you?.
Single payer is a different subject for a different time. I chose the topic. Please stay on topic.

Ah, you don't enjoy having your hypocrisy pointed out, do you? Tsk, tsk. Don't commit it, then.

As to topic, if somebody with little or no intellectual cred in the first place wants to blather out statements on one topic which reveal dual hypocrisy with another, it's fair game to point that out, because the hypocrite at hand has thus created a relational linkage of his/her own and self-enlarged his/her own intellectual credibility gap by doing so. There are many, like me, who remember what people write on given topics and naturally put that into context as it relates to other topics. Ideologies and opinions don't live in individual vacuums. When written, they eventually produce an overall intellectual picture of their creators. If you don't like being rhetorically hoisted up on your own hypocrisy, like a squealing shoat, don't be a hypocrite.

Nice to know; most conservatives do. Most Republicans do. That's how they get elected and it's how they continue to fool the fools in the Tea Party. The easiest way to tell if a Republican is lying is to determine whether his/her lips are moving.
And liberals don't lie? Puh-leeeeze. Unless you can provide the stats to prove this, then keep your holier than though crap to yourself.

Who needs stats? All anybody has to do to see it is to pay attention. Democrats lie all the time, but the Right lies exponentially more. If you deny that, you're not paying attention, or, as I suspect is actually the case, you could stick your brain in a jaybird's ass and make it fly backwards.

Oh, you mean like the millions who didn't create the current mess and crosscurrents of Wall Street corruption they're swept up in and suffering for, despite their years of hard work and faith in what has proven to be an amoral and immoral economic structure? Folk myth..
I never earned more than $25k until I reached the age of 35. I blamed no one but myself. This was not the fault of some wall street mogal, and I had no claim to his money. But, I kept at it until I succeeded. Not a folk myth. It's my life's story.

It's "m-o-g-u-l." They were Muslims who ran India until 1857. One built a little shack called the Taj Mahal, but what does accurate spelling matter, right? "Whatever" is the operative term, right?

Anyhow, whether or not you were ruined by the Banksters doesn't factually change whose fault the current mess is; nor does it obviate or alleviate the awful, undeserved predicaments and sufferings of people who have worked hard all of their lives and been undeservedly swept up in and swindled by a mess caused 95% by the GOP, its minions, Wall Street investment bankers, and the Bush administration. Live with it.

If you're not black yourself and you've said this, you don't know your Heinie from a hole in the ground..
I have worked for fortune 500 companies before and I currently work for "big pharma." I am an insider. I know first hand the emphasis that these companies place on hiring and retaining black employees. I do know my arse from a hole in the ground.

If you're part of that "rarified" ethos, how have you surived in it, given all the spelling and grammar errors you commit when you express yourself in writing? Oh, I guess you probably had secretaries more literate than yourself who cleaned up your prose before you communicated with your corporate superiors, huh, insider?

Since there is obviously racists in this movement, is it now okay to brand the entire movement as racist?

The above is a glaring example. "Racists" is plural, so it should be "...are obviously racists," NOT "...is obviously racists," because "is" is singular. Boy, I'll bet you never wrote your own memos to your "fortune 500" CEO, given your minimal level of basic literacy. By the way, the "F" in "Fortune 500" should be capitalized. If the stuff you write here is indicative of your overall level of literacy and you really do work in "big pharma," a field where accuracy and correctness are paramount, I pity the pharmaceutical industry and I have no idea how somebody who's only semi-literate can make them any money.

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Ulysses
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote Ulysses:

The above is a glaring example. "Racists" is plural, so it should be "...are obviously racists," NOT "...is obviously racists," because "is" is singular. Boy, I'll bet you never wrote your own memos to your "fortune 500" CEO, given your minimal level of basic literacy. By the way, the "F" in "Fortune 500" should be capitalized. If the stuff you write here is indicative of your overall level of literacy and you really do work in "big pharma," a field where accuracy and correctness are paramount, I pity the pharmaceutical industry and I have no idea how somebody who's only semi-literate can make them any money.

I make them money because I am extremely good at what I do. I also have a significant case of ADD with a touch of dyslexia, which leads to some of the mistakes that you have noted. And thank you so much for noticing! You ARE a gentle hearted soul. My spelling is generally better than average, but sometimes I spell a word exactly as it sounds. Even if its wrong. I understand how you feel though, my symptoms can drive my wife crazy sometimes.So join the club. But, I am extremely creative,I am an excellent problem solver, a good dad, a loyal friend, and my logic is sound. The ADD is a blessing and a curse. If there are any diabetics on this board, what I am working on will make your life easier and better. No need for pity.My company is lucky to have high performers such as myself on board. Is there ANY diversity of thought tolerated here? Have you noticed the number of hateful personal insults that I have been subject to simply because my opinions are different? A clear sign that folks are desperate. Or is it desparate?

That said, I would much, much rather discuss issues in an adult manor rather than sink into personal insults. Why change the topic to me? I'm not as interesting as ya'll seem to think I am.

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rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 6:49 am

Let me see here. You know a racist but he is of no significance. He doesn't matter.

People who falsely accuse someone of being a racist are EVIL!

No matter how hard they try, racists cannot disguise themselves once they begin to speak on the subject.

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Bush_Wacker
Joined:
Jun. 25, 2011 6:53 am

I think people who accuse people of falsely accusing people of being racist are racist.

ah2
Joined:
Dec. 13, 2010 9:00 pm
Quote rigel1:

[quote=Ulysses]

The above is a glaring example. "Racists" is plural, so it should be "...are obviously racists," NOT "...is obviously racists," because "is" is singular. Boy, I'll bet you never wrote your own memos to your "fortune 500" CEO, given your minimal level of basic literacy. By the way, the "F" in "Fortune 500" should be capitalized. If the stuff you write here is indicative of your overall level of literacy and you really do work in "big pharma," a field where accuracy and correctness are paramount, I pity the pharmaceutical industry and I have no idea how somebody who's only semi-literate can make them any money.

I make them money because I am extremely good at what I do. I also have a significant case of ADD with a touch of dyslexia, which leads to some of the mistakes that you have noted. And thank you so much for noticing! You ARE a gentle hearted soul.

Nice try. No stuffy. Dyslexia makes people put letters they know how to correctly use in the wrong order; it doesn't make them omit those letters altogether. Ignorance does that.

ADD stands for "Attention Deficit Disorder." It's just that. So, it's plausible that somebody with ADD didn't get a word definition when needed and therefore doesn't know how to spell that word. Plausible, but not likely among successful people with ADD, because millions of intelligent people with ADD are successful and highly educated, often self-educated. It's those people, especially, who, precisely because they're intelligent, well-educated, and aware of how to work with their ADD, are sometimes the best spellers, because they work very hard and overcompensate, if anything, to offset the negative effects of ADD.

As to gentleheartedness, the Right turned the national debate acrimonious and they've shown, politically and economically, that they don't believe in giving any quarter. So be it. As one of them, you get the reaction to that -- no quarter from me or any other progressive who's tired of showing up at gunfights armed with knives. You get it even worse when you show up in a progressive forum spouting lies, propaganda, and nonsense, such as you often do here. The fact that you may couch your political and economic immorality in less than acrid prose does not matter. As a member of the Right and an apologist for its rotten and immoral agenda, you get no quarter because the people who run your side give none and have shown and stated (Mitch McConnell) that they're not interested in giving any. Get over it, live with it, or disappear. Whichever.

Even if its wrong.

Do dyslexia and/or ADD cause failure to punctuate?

a good dad, a loyal friend

Is your dog's name "Checkers?"

Is there ANY diversity of thought tolerated here? Have you noticed the number of hateful personal insults that I have been subject to simply because my opinions are different? A clear sign that folks are desperate. Or is it desparate?

First, I don't run this board; neither do I mediate its content. The fact that diversity of thought is tolerated here is documented by the simple fact that you get on it. You get the same play here that progressives get on con blogs and boards, so why do you expect any different? I know why. You Righties are fond of that particular false equivalency that says your side can, in general, be as nasty as it wants, but when we give it back to you, "Oh, Boo Hoo! You're not playing fair!" Shove it!

That said, I would much, much rather discuss issues in an adult manor rather than sink into personal insults. Why change the topic to me? I'm not as interesting as ya'll seem to think I am.

But which manor could serve as a venue? Would any lord actually allow that?

I'm not interested in you at all; I simply won't allow you or any other flying winged monkey to spread lies and nonsense without challenging them.

Ulysses's picture
Ulysses
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote Ulysses:
Quote rigel1:

[quote=Ulysses]

The above is a glaring example. "Racists" is plural, so it should be "...are obviously racists," NOT "...is obviously racists," because "is" is singular. Boy, I'll bet you never wrote your own memos to your "fortune 500" CEO, given your minimal level of basic literacy. By the way, the "F" in "Fortune 500" should be capitalized. If the stuff you write here is indicative of your overall level of literacy and you really do work in "big pharma," a field where accuracy and correctness are paramount, I pity the pharmaceutical industry and I have no idea how somebody who's only semi-literate can make them any money.

I make them money because I am extremely good at what I do. I also have a significant case of ADD with a touch of dyslexia, which leads to some of the mistakes that you have noted. And thank you so much for noticing! You ARE a gentle hearted soul.
ADD stands for "Attention Deficit Disorder." It's just that. .

Yes, I know what it stands for. I have been diagnosed. But thanks for the update.

Do dyslexia and/or ADD cause failure to punctuate?.

Yes it does. I can look in a closet and not see something that is right in front of my face. Or I can write a paragraph that contains the sentence " Tha is all there is." I may proof read it three times and in my mind it looks fine, but I don't notice the missing "t."

When I was diagnosed a great book, driven to distraction was recommended to me. I forget the Author, but it really explains things well. Different folks are affected different ways. If you have any other questions I would suggest reading that. I just take the bad with the good and roll on.

The good thing about pharma is that everything must be verified by a second person. So if I do something, someone else must be the verifier. If someone else does soemthing, then I may be the verifier. Two people must sign off.

I had to go back and edit this post because I wrote this:

I can look in a closet and not see something that is right in front of my face. Or I can write a paragraph with that contains the sentence.

Three specialists I have seen call it ADD. if you prefer stupid, that's your call. Makes no difference to me.

Now back to the subject. Anbody have any concerns over this?

And now a "lady" Wall street occupier who happens to be a teacher is blaming the Jews. She wants all of the Zionist Jews to be driven out of the country. I don't have a link but I personally heard her say this on the news. She is now a former teacher. Since making this racist remark she has been fired. Since there is obviously racists in this movement, is it now okay to brand the entire movement as racist? If we use the progressive standard then the anwer is obviously yes.

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rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 6:49 am

Why do you waste your time here when you know you're going to get your butt kicked and then make excuses about it? Isn't there enough wingnuts sites on the internet for you guys to hang out on? Personally, I enjoy watching some of these posters around here give it to you righties. If you're silly enough to post here don't be surprised by the outcome.

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Sprinklerfitter
Joined:
Sep. 1, 2011 5:49 am
The good thing about pharma is that everything must be verified by a second person. So if I do something, someone else must be the verifier. If someone else does soemthing, then I may be the verifier. Two people must sign off.

Yeah, well, I wouldn't want to use pharmaceuticals on which you've had the final verification responsibility. I'm very skeptical about your assertions regarding ADD, and pharma is not a good occupation for anybody with such a condition, because it could lead to errors that could hurt or kill people. That's not a discriminatory position because allowing somebody with perceptual accuracy problems to verify anything pharmaceutical is like allowing a blind person to drive a cab. It's just not workable. Plus, I don't think you work in pharma anyway. I think you made that up to give yourself more bona fides in arguments on this site, just as some others have done. I don't believe you. And, I'm skeptical about your statements on ADD and dyslexia, because they don't square with the experiences of my friends who have those conditions.

I invite anybody, including Thom Hartmann, who suffers from ADD, to verify the truthfulness of your statements on it. Also, anybody else with documentable expertise on it should weigh in. Let's see what kind of takers we get on that. And please, no frauds or shills. I said documentable expertise, including universally verifiable sources and facts.

Now back to the subject. Anbody have any concerns over this?

And now a "lady" Wall street occupier who happens to be a teacher is blaming the Jews. She wants all of the Zionist Jews to be driven out of the country. I don't have a link but I personally heard her say this on the news.

Uh huh. Your cred's already so high everybody should just naturally take your word that you heard it, right? No link? Of course not. What school? Oh, of course you can't remember, like Rice and Cheney and Rumsfeld couldn't remember anything when testifying on how they falsified reasons for the wars. What news channel? Oh, of course, you probably conveniently can't remember that either, can you? What crap!

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Ulysses
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote Garrett78:

Sadly, history textbooks and the media have influenced many into believing utter nonsense, such as the idea that the US is a land of equal opportunity, and that Dr. King was about nothing more than ending Jim Crow laws. Or that the US operates as a free market, something rigel said in another thread recently.

rigel, you really ought to take some time to read and think critically about the following: http://www.timwise.org/2011/09/getting-what-we-deserve-wealth-race-and-entitlement-in-america/#more-868. It's long, but hopefully you have the necessary attention span and openness to factual data.

Thanks for the advice. Are you willing to accept some advice as well?

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rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 6:49 am
Quote Sprinklerfitter:

Why do you waste your time here when you know you're going to get your butt kicked and then make excuses about it? Isn't there enough wingnuts sites on the internet for you guys to hang out on? Personally, I enjoy watching some of these posters around here give it to you righties. If you're silly enough to post here don't be surprised by the outcome.

The answer is so easy even a liberal can get it. I do subscribe to some conservative web sites. But I also enjoy hearing other points of view. I am happy to hear that you enjoy the dialog. That encourages me to stay. Stay thirsty my friend!

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rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 6:49 am
Quote Ulysses:
The good thing about pharma is that everything must be verified by a second person. So if I do something, someone else must be the verifier. If someone else does soemthing, then I may be the verifier. Two people must sign off.

Yeah, well, I wouldn't want to use pharmaceuticals on which you've had the final verification responsibility. I'm very skeptical about your assertions regarding ADD, and pharma is not a good occupation for anybody with such a condition, because it could lead to errors that could hurt or kill people. That's not a discriminatory position because allowing somebody with perceptual accuracy problems to verify anything pharmaceutical is like allowing a blind person to drive a cab. It's just not workable. Plus, I don't think you work in pharma anyway. I think you made that up to give yourself more bona fides in arguments on this site, just as some others have done. I don't believe you. And, I'm skeptical about your statements on ADD and dyslexia, because they don't square with the experiences of my friends who have those conditions.

I invite anybody, including Thom Hartmann, who suffers from ADD, to verify the truthfulness of your statements on it. Also, anybody else with documentable expertise on it should weigh in. Let's see what kind of takers we get on that. And please, no frauds or shills. I said documentable expertise, including universally verifiable sources and facts.

Now back to the subject. Anbody have any concerns over this?

And now a "lady" Wall street occupier who happens to be a teacher is blaming the Jews. She wants all of the Zionist Jews to be driven out of the country. I don't have a link but I personally heard her say this on the news.

Uh huh. Your cred's already so high everybody should just naturally take your word that you heard it, right? No link? Of course not. What school? Oh, of course you can't remember, like Rice and Cheney and Rumsfeld couldn't remember anything when testifying on how they falsified reasons for the wars. What news channel? Oh, of course, you probably conveniently can't remember that either, can you? What crap!

Well yes you should. You may disagree with my opinion, but I have never lied to you. So my credit is at 100%.

NOTE THE SOURCE

If you are accusing anyone of a "load of crap" it would be them not me. Please be careful when jumping to conclusions. You could injure yourself..

So what do you think of these liberal bigots?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/19/patricia-mcallister-fired_n_1020252.html

rigel1's picture
rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 6:49 am
Quote rigel1:
Quote Ulysses:
The good thing about pharma is that everything must be verified by a second person. So if I do something, someone else must be the verifier. If someone else does soemthing, then I may be the verifier. Two people must sign off.

Yeah, well, I wouldn't want to use pharmaceuticals on which you've had the final verification responsibility. I'm very skeptical about your assertions regarding ADD, and pharma is not a good occupation for anybody with such a condition, because it could lead to errors that could hurt or kill people. That's not a discriminatory position because allowing somebody with perceptual accuracy problems to verify anything pharmaceutical is like allowing a blind person to drive a cab. It's just not workable. Plus, I don't think you work in pharma anyway. I think you made that up to give yourself more bona fides in arguments on this site, just as some others have done. I don't believe you. And, I'm skeptical about your statements on ADD and dyslexia, because they don't square with the experiences of my friends who have those conditions.

I invite anybody, including Thom Hartmann, who suffers from ADD, to verify the truthfulness of your statements on it. Also, anybody else with documentable expertise on it should weigh in. Let's see what kind of takers we get on that. And please, no frauds or shills. I said documentable expertise, including universally verifiable sources and facts.

Now back to the subject. Anbody have any concerns over this?

And now a "lady" Wall street occupier who happens to be a teacher is blaming the Jews. She wants all of the Zionist Jews to be driven out of the country. I don't have a link but I personally heard her say this on the news.

Uh huh. Your cred's already so high everybody should just naturally take your word that you heard it, right? No link? Of course not. What school? Oh, of course you can't remember, like Rice and Cheney and Rumsfeld couldn't remember anything when testifying on how they falsified reasons for the wars. What news channel? Oh, of course, you probably conveniently can't remember that either, can you? What crap!

Well yes you should. You may disagree with my opinion, but I have never lied to you. So my credit is at 100%.

NOTE THE SOURCE

If you are accusing anyone of a "load of crap" it would be them not me. Please be careful when jumping to conclusions. You could injure yourself..

So what do you think of these liberal bigots?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/19/patricia-mcallister-fired_n_1020252.html

Didn't answer any of the questions about documenting what you claimed, did you? That demonstrates to everybody that you're nothing more than a con lurker troll, and I'm going to stop feeding you negative energy to run on by commencing to stop any dialog with you. Whenever you spout crap from now on, I may comment on it without addressing you. Meanwhile, bend over, pull your head between your legs, and kiss your own buttocks!

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Ulysses
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote Tim Wise:“What about Oprah?”

So came the question from the middle of the crowded lecture hall, spat out from a contorted face whose owner had just sat through an hour-long talk, the substance of which I can only imagine he had found excruciating.

Needing a bit more information before I could confidently respond, I replied the only way I could, up to that point: “What about her?”

And then came the predictable soliloquy to which I have grown accustomed in the eleven or so years I’ve been speaking about racism around the country. It’s the one that goes roughly like this:

“If racism is really so bad, and blacks face so much discrimination, how come Oprah is one of the most loved people in America? How come she’s been so successful, and has become so wealthy, and so powerful?”

Before I could respond, the questioner continued by throwing in a few other folks of color whose success he believed trumped any evidence of racism as a real and persistent problem: to wit, Tiger Woods, Bill Cosby, and Colin Powell.

I paused for a second, half expecting him to persist, perhaps by noting the professional accomplishments of Jackie Chan, Lucy Liu, Russell Simmons and J-Lo as ironclad confirmation that racism had been eliminated, but at this point he fell silent, convinced that he had made his case well enough, I suppose. The statistical evidence I had presented throughout my talk, not to mention the findings of several studies that have directly tested for racism in the job market, housing and elsewhere (and found it to be a substantial impediment to equal opportunity) were all irrelevant to him; they meant nothing in the face of individual success stories (1). Anecdote, in his mind, was not only proof; it was even better proof than social science research and quantitative data. That such thinking can survive a college education suggests that David Horowitz’s concern about leftist professors brainwashing college students is more than a bit misplaced. Apparently, this guy’s professors hadn’t even convinced him of the most basic strictures of research design and accepted scholarly interpretation, let alone turned him into a mouth-foaming revolutionary.

And speaking of Horowitz, the “What about Oprah?” trope was one he too had used in response to my work, when an AP reporter had asked him about me in 2005. According to Horowitz, I adhere to a “Marxist framework” when it comes to race, because I believe in a “collective effort by white people to keep black people down” (not sure where Marx ever said that, nor I for that matter, but I digress), and that such thinking can’t explain the success of someone like Oprah. When the AP reporter asked for my response to this statement, I remember being speechless for several seconds, stunned that such a rejoinder was all this leading light of the nation’s far-right had been able to muster–in fact, a little embarrassed for him that it was so. It’s one thing to ask that kind of question when you’re twelve, or even a college student. It’s quite another to continue asking it while posing as a deep thinking conservative intellectual (no joke intended here, by the way).

When Exceptions Prove the Rule

So, what about Oprah?

Well, here’s an even better question, and one that pretty well answers the first: What about Madame C.J. Walker?

When I asked the agitated audience member this question, he looked puzzled, naturally never having heard of Walker before, and not understanding why I would have offered this reply to his original query about Winfrey. I quickly explained the point: namely, that Madame C.J. Walker had become one of the very first African American millionaires, by way of tapping into a largely ignored market for black beauty products. She had worked hard, persevered against the odds and triumphed brilliantly: a real American success story!

“Exactly!” interjected the man from the audience. How do you explain someone like her, he wanted to know, if racism is really that bad?

Of course, what I hadn’t shared up to that point was that Walker had become a millionaire in 1911: a year in which sixty-three black folks had been lynched in this country (more than one a week), and at a time when obviously all would agree overt racial oppression of African Americans was the norm.

In other words, of course it’s true that some black folks have done extraordinarily well in this society. No one ever suggested the impossibility of such a thing, even amidst crushing bigotry. But surely no one would suggest that Madame C.J. Walker’s success, even at a time of legally-codified terrorism against black folks, should stand as evidence that anyone in the black community could have made it, and that those fighting against racism at the time were misguided; let alone that there was something wrong with all the other black folks, for having failed to replicate Walker’s singular achievements.

Yet the logic of a David Horowitz, or the young man questioning me that day, leads precisely in this direction, as if the fact of individuals having triumphed against great obstacles, ends all debate about a society’s degree of fairness. As if the success of a few, who have risen from the bottom, serves as the final proof of equal opportunity, despite the evidence of all the other millions who have labored equally as hard, and yet, remained in roughly the same station as that into which they were born. As if we should conclude from the success of an Oprah that opportunity is equal, as opposed to wondering how many more Oprahs might there be, figuratively speaking, and how much more quickly might they have emerged, had the remaining obstacles been eliminated from their paths?

As James Baldwin so presciently put it, some forty-five years ago, responding even then to the same “anyone can make it if they try” mantra commonly heard today:

“…the inequalities suffered by the many are in no way justified by the rise of a few. A few have always risen–in every country, every era, and in the teeth of regimes which can by no stretch of the imagination be thought of as free.”

Which point brings to mind the obvious question: if whites were so willing, even in 1961, at which time Baldwin wrote these words, to insist upon the meritocratic nature of what was, after all, an apartheid system, what orgiastic irrationality would lead us to ever believe that this was a particularly persuasive argument, or that those putting it forth had even the faintest inkling as to what they were talking about?

Whites, as it turns out, have always said that racism wasn’t that big a deal, and that the “determined will,” as Baldwin put it, was sufficient to make all obstacles vanish in their wake, even when the evidence to the contrary was incontestable. You need only go back and read the Gallup polls of white racial attitudes even before the passage of civil rights legislation, to see this fantastical vision of America on full display. Therein you can find most whites, even in the early ’60s, insisting that blacks had fully equal opportunity in education, employment, housing and the like–a position that all would recognize as borderline delusional now, but which prompted no concerns for the mental health of the white masses at the time (2).

And then as now, those who sought to downplay or flatly ignore the reality of racism would point to the success stories–perhaps Sammy Davis Jr., or Sidney Poitier–as confirmation that all was right with the world, and that those crusading to end segregation were wasting their time. After all, with a little effort, all black folks could have an act at the Copa, or star in motion pictures, just as today, presumably, they can all have a talk-show empire, a clothing line, or become Secretary of State.

But just as such argumentation was the textbook definition of foolishness in Baldwin’s era (and before, seeing as how it reaches back well before his lifetime), so too does it fail the laugh test today, despite what progress really has been achieved. Until such successes become so common that we can no longer name all the power brokers with dark skin, their triumphs will stand as a stark reminder that exceptions can indeed prove the very rules against which they have been deployed.

The Superstar Fallacy: Or Why Entertainers Aren’t a Good Gauge of Social Fairness

Of course, there’s an even more basic flaw in the thinking of the “What about Oprah?” crowd. The simple fact is, very few people, of any color, ever become superstar celebrities, or high-ranking political officials. Very few people become millionaires, let alone billionaires. So to think that any person who has attained these heights of fame and fortune, by dint of their existence, says something about the larger society and its openness to talent, is by definition absurd. If these statistical outliers teach us anything about the larger society, it would be that their relative infrequency indicates their exceptionality, rather than suggesting how hard work and effort were all that really mattered. I mean, do we really think that Bill Gates worked that much harder than everyone else? And if others have also worked incredibly hard, why is it that almost no one approaches his level of wealth (indeed, many nations fail to do so)?

To judge the openness of a society by examining the outcomes obtained by the elite is tautological in the extreme. It is to say, we know we live in a meritocracy because of the existence of superstars, and we have superstars because we live in a meritocracy–the ultimate in circular logic. Rather, to determine the larger social reality, we must examine the relative outcomes for the typical white person or family, compared to the typical person or family of color. Averages and medians tell us far more about the norm than the extremes at either end. To judge a nation by only looking at those at the top (or, for that matter, the bottom) is ignorance on stilts. Surely, conservatives would balk (and rightly so) if someone were to visit an Appalachian coal town, and then declare that what they’d seen had proven the U.S. to be a nation where opportunity was altogether lacking. Yet, they seem comfortable proclaiming opportunity to be as open as the top of Mt. St. Helen’s after examining only those at the society’s pinnacle.

But what is more telling about the extent of equal opportunity: the fact that Oprah could buy and sell the land out from under most all of us, or the fact that the typical white family has eleven times the net worth of the typical black family, and eight times the net worth of the typical Latino family, thanks to past and present barriers to wealth accumulation, income and equal housing (3)? To ask the question is to answer it.

Not to mention, the powerful persons of color my questioner had rattled off–or that others do when this issue is raised–are almost entirely from the worlds of entertainment or sports, which, important and culturally influential though they may be, are hardly like the industries in which most people find themselves. After all, when it comes to athletic ability, or musical aptitude, or any kind of performing art, one either “has it,” so to speak, or one doesn’t. Such areas of life are among the most meritocratic in any society, by necessity, as the standards used to judge ability in those areas are relatively objective.

But in the regular private sector workforce, this is far from the case. Old boy’s networks still skew opportunity to those with the best connections (found by several studies to be overwhelmingly white and male), and the criteria used to determine ability are inherently subjective: Will this person “fit in” with the company? Do they have “enough” experience? Will they be able to relate to the customer base? All of these evaluations are judgment calls, and, according to the evidence, the kind of judgment calls that are often susceptible to internalized race, class and gender biases (4).

Rigel and others, you can read the rest of the piece here: http://www.timwise.org/2006/07/the-oprah-effect-black-success-white-denial-and-the-reality-of-racism/

Garrett78's picture
Garrett78
Joined:
Sep. 3, 2010 8:20 am

I think it has. I'm sure you all will agree that being a "bigot" in America is much, much more dangerous than being a minority. "Bigots" are social outcasts. In business, you had better keep any "bigotted" predjudices deep under wraps or you will be destroyed. And rightly so. That said, is "bigotry" dead? Of course not. But it is on life support and fading fast. I am a conservative, we long for a color blind society. I know only one "bigot", and he is in no position to oppress anyone. He is not relevant. Trying to convert every confederate flag flying, pick up truck driving, tobacco chewing, red neck is a colossal waste of time. You cannot cure everybody of their paranoia or mental issues. So why even try? Again, they are in no position to oppress anyone. Let them wallow in their misery.

Now there is a new evil that we must contend with. The accusation of "bigotry" is being used to destroy decent people. Once a person has been branded a "bigot", it is up to that person to prove that he is not. Guilty until proven innocent. And as you know, it is impossible to prove innocence. This is not only un American, it is evil. If we truly want to achieve Dr. Kings dream, we must not tolerate this. People are making assumptions that other people are "bigots" without a shred of evidence to back it up. Unless you have real, solid evidence, stop the attacks. Facts not feelings. The American people know "bigotry" when they see it. WE don't need some hateful nit wit to decide it for us.

You asked something about liberal bigots?

Bush_Wacker's picture
Bush_Wacker
Joined:
Jun. 25, 2011 6:53 am
Quote Ulysses:
Quote rigel1:
Quote Ulysses:
The good thing about pharma is that everything must be verified by a second person. So if I do something, someone else must be the verifier. If someone else does soemthing, then I may be the verifier. Two people must sign off.

Yeah, well, I wouldn't want to use pharmaceuticals on which you've had the final verification responsibility. I'm very skeptical about your assertions regarding ADD, and pharma is not a good occupation for anybody with such a condition, because it could lead to errors that could hurt or kill people. That's not a discriminatory position because allowing somebody with perceptual accuracy problems to verify anything pharmaceutical is like allowing a blind person to drive a cab. It's just not workable. Plus, I don't think you work in pharma anyway. I think you made that up to give yourself more bona fides in arguments on this site, just as some others have done. I don't believe you. And, I'm skeptical about your statements on ADD and dyslexia, because they don't square with the experiences of my friends who have those conditions.

I invite anybody, including Thom Hartmann, who suffers from ADD, to verify the truthfulness of your statements on it. Also, anybody else with documentable expertise on it should weigh in. Let's see what kind of takers we get on that. And please, no frauds or shills. I said documentable expertise, including universally verifiable sources and facts.

Now back to the subject. Anbody have any concerns over this?

And now a "lady" Wall street occupier who happens to be a teacher is blaming the Jews. She wants all of the Zionist Jews to be driven out of the country. I don't have a link but I personally heard her say this on the news.

Uh huh. Your cred's already so high everybody should just naturally take your word that you heard it, right? No link? Of course not. What school? Oh, of course you can't remember, like Rice and Cheney and Rumsfeld couldn't remember anything when testifying on how they falsified reasons for the wars. What news channel? Oh, of course, you probably conveniently can't remember that either, can you? What crap!

Well yes you should. You may disagree with my opinion, but I have never lied to you. So my credit is at 100%.

NOTE THE SOURCE

If you are accusing anyone of a "load of crap" it would be them not me. Please be careful when jumping to conclusions. You could injure yourself..

So what do you think of these liberal bigots?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/19/patricia-mcallister-fired_n_1020252.html

Didn't answer any of the questions about documenting what you claimed, did you? That demonstrates to everybody that you're nothing more than a con lurker troll, and I'm going to stop feeding you negative energy to run on by commencing to stop any dialog with you. Whenever you spout crap from now on, I may comment on it without addressing you. Meanwhile, bend over, pull your head between your legs, and kiss your own buttocks!

I certainly did document it! How could you miss the link? It had her name and all of the details. how much help could you possibly need? I hope you are not naive enough to believe that there are no liberal bigots.

On a serious note. As the great Don Henly said: "If you keep carrying that anger, it will eat you up inside." Unprovoked anger is a serious issue. There are meds that will help you control this. You may want to seek professional help.

rigel1's picture
rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 6:49 am

What about Oprah?

You can assure equal rights. But you cannot force anyone to like anyone else. As I said let the Hillbillies and red necks wallow in their misery. They have not the power or the intellect to suppress anyone. I asked this question before, who is more likely to be descriminated against?

The Fat

Anyone over 40 or 50 years of age

The short. If everything else is equal, then the tall individual will get the offer.

The ugly. Unless they have a unique skill They are usually screwed. (figuratively, not literally)

This not always the case, but the disadvantages are clear and profound.

Should we have affirmative action to protect these victims of discrimination? Being black is a cakewalk compared to being one of these folks.

rigel1's picture
rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 6:49 am
Quote rigel1:
Quote Ulysses:
Quote rigel1:
Quote Ulysses:
The good thing about pharma is that everything must be verified by a second person. So if I do something, someone else must be the verifier. If someone else does soemthing, then I may be the verifier. Two people must sign off.

Yeah, well, I wouldn't want to use pharmaceuticals on which you've had the final verification responsibility. I'm very skeptical about your assertions regarding ADD, and pharma is not a good occupation for anybody with such a condition, because it could lead to errors that could hurt or kill people. That's not a discriminatory position because allowing somebody with perceptual accuracy problems to verify anything pharmaceutical is like allowing a blind person to drive a cab. It's just not workable. Plus, I don't think you work in pharma anyway. I think you made that up to give yourself more bona fides in arguments on this site, just as some others have done. I don't believe you. And, I'm skeptical about your statements on ADD and dyslexia, because they don't square with the experiences of my friends who have those conditions.

I invite anybody, including Thom Hartmann, who suffers from ADD, to verify the truthfulness of your statements on it. Also, anybody else with documentable expertise on it should weigh in. Let's see what kind of takers we get on that. And please, no frauds or shills. I said documentable expertise, including universally verifiable sources and facts.

Now back to the subject. Anbody have any concerns over this?

And now a "lady" Wall street occupier who happens to be a teacher is blaming the Jews. She wants all of the Zionist Jews to be driven out of the country. I don't have a link but I personally heard her say this on the news.

Uh huh. Your cred's already so high everybody should just naturally take your word that you heard it, right? No link? Of course not. What school? Oh, of course you can't remember, like Rice and Cheney and Rumsfeld couldn't remember anything when testifying on how they falsified reasons for the wars. What news channel? Oh, of course, you probably conveniently can't remember that either, can you? What crap!

Well yes you should. You may disagree with my opinion, but I have never lied to you. So my credit is at 100%.

NOTE THE SOURCE

If you are accusing anyone of a "load of crap" it would be them not me. Please be careful when jumping to conclusions. You could injure yourself..

So what do you think of these liberal bigots?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/19/patricia-mcallister-fired_n_1020252.html

Didn't answer any of the questions about documenting what you claimed, did you? That demonstrates to everybody that you're nothing more than a con lurker troll, and I'm going to stop feeding you negative energy to run on by commencing to stop any dialog with you. Whenever you spout crap from now on, I may comment on it without addressing you. Meanwhile, bend over, pull your head between your legs, and kiss your own buttocks!

I certainly did document it! How could you miss the link? It had her name and all of the details. how much help could you possibly need? I hope you are not naive enough to believe that there are no liberal bigots.

Her name is Patricia Mcallister and she was recorded. It's probably even on you tube.

On a serious note. As the great Don Henly said: "If you keep carrying that anger, it will eat you up inside." Unprovoked anger is a serious issue. There are meds that will help you control this. You may want to seek professional help.

rigel1's picture
rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 6:49 am

MLK's dream was about social justice just as much as it was about racism. He thoroughly deounced the violence we call "poverty" as applied towards all races and ethnic groups..

However, is you're not on the receiving end of dying from being denied medical care...you won't see the "violence". We don't tend to equate that with murder...which it is. The "murder" is justified with political and economic ideology.The motive is fancily engraved paper. It seems to be worth more than life itself.

Every nation-state beginning with the first one...Egypt...has determined through policy and ideology just who gets what out of the national wealth. This one is no different than any other. It uses ideology to explain it just as readily as all of its precessors.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

polycarp2
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Didn't answer any of the questions about documenting what you claimed, did you? That demonstrates to everybody that you're nothing more than a con lurker troll, and I'm going to stop feeding you negative energy to run on by commencing to stop any dialog with you. Whenever you spout crap from now on, I may comment on it without addressing you. Meanwhile, bend over, pull your head between your legs, and kiss your own buttocks!

I certainly did document it! How could you miss the link? It had her name and all of the details. how much help could you possibly need? I hope you are not naive enough to believe that there are no liberal bigots.

Her name is Patricia Mcallister and she was recorded. It's probably even on you tube.

On a serious note. As the great Don Henly said: "If you keep carrying that anger, it will eat you up inside." Unprovoked anger is a serious issue. There are meds that will help you control this. You may want to seek professional help.

Some have no intellectual shame, even when they're proven to be full of it. This "Rigel" is one of those.

1. He can't even learn to highlight quotes correctly on this board, even though it's a simple mechanism to learn.

2. It's on You Tube by, among, others, Faux News. Golly Gee, could it have been selectively edited to purposely misconstrue context? Oh, no, Faux would NEVER do that...

3. The moron has never learned enough about the Mideast to know the differences between and among Judaism, Zionism, and anti-Semitism. He was so dumb when he wrote this stuff (maybe he's a plant, just here to cause chaos) that he claims somebody is anti-Semitic when they're merely anti-Zionist. He's so unread he thinks all Jews are Zionists and that anybody who opposes Zionism is automatically an anti-Semite. This reflects the level of learning and erudition typical of most privates in the flying winged monkey army.

4. He attempts to create a fabricated false equivalency between bigots on the Left and those on the Right, a false equivalency that does not exist now and never has.

I thought this turd would be gone when I exposed him for the freak he is, but, alas, he can't be shamed or humiliated; he's just another mindless droid who will end up toiling with his fellow automatons in a modern-day Metropolis, oblivious even to the fact that he's being used by his masters and thankful for the crumbs they deign to throw him now and then in return for his complacency, compliance, and tacit assent in their insane and immoral system. Poor dumb bastard.

Ulysses's picture
Ulysses
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote Ulysses:

[quote]

2. It's on You Tube by, among, others, Faux News. Golly Gee, could it have been selectively edited to purposely misconstrue context? Oh, no, Faux would NEVER do that....

It was reported by the Huffington post. And she was on video. It’s her own words. It’s Pretty straight forward. No sign of this being a fraud. So far as far as I can tell, you are the only one in the world who believes the story is bogus. This thing is so incredibly easy to authenticate. Are you are afraid to be proven wrong? Well cheer up my friend. Everyone is wrong from time to time even me.

Before you work yourself into a lather, remember there is a better way to live.

Words to live by:

The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.

Hang in there my friend. I'm praying for you!

rigel1's picture
rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 6:49 am
It was reported by the Huffington post.

Which was recently sold.

And she was on video.

Yeah, savvy media consumers take EVERYTHING on video at face value.

[quote]It’s her own words. It’s Pretty straight frward. No sign of this being a fraud. So far as far as I can tell, you are the only one in the world who believes the story is bogus.

The devil's always in the details; in this case, whenever Faux News has had anything to do with anything, it shouldn't be accepted as fully factual until it's been cross-vetted with multiple other sources.

This thing is so incredibly easy to authenticate. Are you are afraid to be proven wrong?

I never said she didn't say it, Stupid. I gave the context, which you, in your ignorance, just can't understand, and I showed why that doesn't make her an anti-Semitic bigot.

Well cheer up my friend. Everyone is wrong from time to time even me.
As far as what you put on here, practically all the time.

Before you work yourself into a lather, remember there is a better way to live.

Yeah, without halfwits like you. Too bad you can vote and procreate.

Words to live by:

The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.

How come conservatives don't practice those traits in applying their social, political, and economic philosophies?

Hang in there my friend. I'm praying for you!

Save your prayers for yourself. If the atheists prove to be wrong, you pharisees and moneylenders on the Right are going to have one hell of a lot of atoning to do...

Ulysses's picture
Ulysses
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

rigel is clearly not willing to read what I've posted, but I'm going to post the following anyway: http://www.timwise.org/2010/10/affirmative-action-for-dummies-explaining-the-difference-between-oppression-and-opportunity/

With that, I'm done with this absurd thread.

Garrett78's picture
Garrett78
Joined:
Sep. 3, 2010 8:20 am
Quote Ulysses:
It was reported by the Huffington post.

Which was recently sold.

And she was on video.

Yeah, savvy media consumers take EVERYTHING on video at face value.

[quote]It’s her own words. It’s Pretty straight frward. No sign of this being a fraud. So far as far as I can tell, you are the only one in the world who believes the story is bogus.

The devil's always in the details; in this case, whenever Faux News has had anything to do with anything, it shouldn't be accepted as fully factual until it's been cross-vetted with multiple other sources.

This thing is so incredibly easy to authenticate. Are you are afraid to be proven wrong?

I never said she didn't say it, Stupid. I gave the context, which you, in your ignorance, just can't understand, and I showed why that doesn't make her an anti-Semitic bigot.

Well cheer up my friend. Everyone is wrong from time to time even me.
As far as what you put on here, practically all the time.

Before you work yourself into a lather, remember there is a better way to live.

Yeah, without halfwits like you. Too bad you can vote and procreate.

Words to live by:

The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.

How come conservatives don't practice those traits in applying their social, political, and economic philosophies?

Hang in there my friend. I'm praying for you!

Save your prayers for yourself. If the atheists prove to be wrong, you pharisees and moneylenders on the Right are going to have one hell of a lot of atoning to do...

You are definitely correct. We can try to live by the standards listed above but we often fall short. But you must be willing to take off your blinders. We are all imperfect. Including me and my liberal friends.

I’m not sure where you stand on the McAllister deal. Are you saying that this is a right wing conspiracy? That she is actually an evil conservative black woman hired by fox to make anti semetic remarks? She was not really a teacher for L.A. public schools? Or do you believe that she is not a bigot and should not have been fired? If this is a fake don’t you think that it would have been uncovered by the liberal media by now? There is no doubt this would have been debunked by now. I listed another source to assist you with lifting your head from the sand.

As far as the prayer goes, I already prayed for you. Sorry too late. But I know you are the type who likes to get even. So I guess the only thing you can do is to pray for me.

Have a great week U.

thttp://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=1462990

rigel1's picture
rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 6:49 am
Quote Garrett78:

rigel is clearly not willing to read what I've posted, but I'm going to post the following anyway: http://www.timwise.org/2010/10/affirmative-action-for-dummies-explaining-the-difference-between-oppression-and-opportunity/

With that, I'm done with this absurd thread.

It took a while for me to read it.. I only get on the internet for short periods. I'm part of the 53% who are paying for the for the rest of America. I'm busy being productive.

It's one man's opinion. It does not disprove anything that I have said or seen first hand. You cannot assume that blacks don't get loans because they are black. One must qualify. Maybe,just maybe they did not qualify. 90% of the NBA is black. How could that be? It would appear by the stats that the NBA is racist. Are they?

I know you felt as if you were being ignored. But so am I. Nobody wants to answer the following

You can assure equal rights. But you cannot force anyone to like anyone else. As I said let the Hillbillies and red necks wallow in their misery. They have not the power or the intellect to suppress anyone. I asked this question before, who is more likely to be descriminated against?

The Fat

Anyone over 40 or 50 years of age

The short. If everything else is equal, then the tall individual will get the offer.

The ugly. Unless they have a unique skill They are usually screwed. (figuratively, not literally)

This not always the case, but the disadvantages are clear and profound.

Should we have affirmative action to protect these victims of discrimination? Being black is a cakewalk compared to being one of these folks.

I do understand that liberals need racisim. When a black man figures out that he is not being held back by his race, he sometimes turns conservative. And the libs hate him for it.

rigel1's picture
rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 6:49 am

Actually, liberals are quickly discovering they are in the same boat as every minority group.

QUOTE:

The occupation movement’s greatest challenge will be overcoming the deep distrust of white liberals by the poor and the working class, especially people of color. "

"The civil rights movement, after all, achieved a legal victory, not an economic one. And for the bottom two-thirds of African-Americans, life is worse today than it was when Martin Luther King marched in Selma in 1965. King, like Malcolm X, understood that racial equality was impossible without economic justice."

Marginalized people of color have been organizing, protesting and suffering for years with little help or even acknowledgment from the white liberal class.

With some justification, those who live in these marginalized communities often view this movement [Occupy Wall St.] as one dominated by white sons and daughters of the middle class who began to decry police abuse and the lack of economic opportunities only after they and their families were affected. This distrust is not the fault of the movement, which has instituted measures within its decision-making process to make sure marginalized voices are heard before white males. It is the fault of a bankrupt liberal class that for decades has abandoned the core issue of economic justice for the poor and the working class and busied itself with the vain and self-referential pursuits of multiculturalism and identity politics.

And the abject failure on the part of the white liberal establishment to stand up for the rights of the poor, as well as its decision to throw its support behind Democratic politicians such as Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, who abet this institutionalized and economic racism, has left many in these marginal communities disdainful of protesters from the newly dispossessed white middle class.

And the degeneration of the New Left is personified by politicians such as Clinton, who mouthed the usual platitudes about the poor and working men and women while he and both major political parties, awash in corporate dollars, betrayed and impoverished them. - Chris Hedges. Full article here:

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/occupiers_have_to_convince_the_other_99_percent_20111024/

The U.S. middle class is finally getting they are in the same boat as minorities. They are on the receiving end of the same policies that impoverished the minorities. .They are finally getting what blacks and other minorities have been organizing against for years. They too are now being driven to the slums ,ghettos and understaffed Welfare Offices in order to survive..

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

polycarp2
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

I'm not even sure what institutionalized and economic racism is. Institutions cannot be racist. Only people can. If there are people in these institutions who are racist then we should be calling them out by name.

For example: When that congressman from Florida claimed that some in congress want to see blacks hanging from trees. He made this claim, but by refusing to name them he protected them. That makes him and accessory. He is no better than they are.

rigel1's picture
rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 6:49 am
Quote rigel1:

I think it has.

The mere fact that you are asking this question speaks voumes on your ignorance and how out of touch with the realities of the average racial minority person's experience you are.

Your narrow experience means absolutely zero from the perspective of greater society.

Dominic C
Joined:
Jun. 27, 2011 9:39 am

If you cannot conceive of "institutionalized" or "structural" racism; and if you want "racist" to be limited to the very most blatant and nasty expressions rather than to a large cultural alienation, you may be able to pretend that we live in a "post-racial, color-blind" world. But you will be there with your 3D glasses in a small room with only a few others.

What has been painfully obvious for some time is that the whole Southern Strategy base for the GOPimps came in reaction to racial justice support by Democrats. Fear of others, less powerful than they, has been the constant recipe with Latinos, Arabs, Muslims and the all-purpose "terrorist" out to get you unless Daddy State protects us from "aliens." The "red" card also has an ethnic slur image as all "Liberals" or "Leftists," much less Socialists are fundamentally "unAmerican" as are those who do not belong to the Right church. "Real Americans" imply that we are not real. It comes down to not being "White" to the bone.

I am sorry that Tim Wise did not break through your ideological wall rigel. He knows of which he speaks, and he has had lots of experience with White folk who confuse ethnic pride with White Pride. I am a proud European American who has grown from relationships outside my group. I am not "White" because that is a term of supremacy and oppression, not a neutral description of difference.

I have known black people who hate White people and who could not be comfortable around my pale complexion. They told me of their burden, and we understood each other. Their experiences with White people have been traumatic and awful. Most black people were just interested in others being human beings. But that is not easy for White people. It is not even bliss for those who go European American. We have been taught to miss and ignore far too much.

The taunting absurdity in claiming that MLK's Dream had been achieved in this America is so stupid or blind that even pity is beyond me. Like Jesus, he gets crucified every day in every way. MLK was a prophet for social justice and peace, not just for the end of segregation. He would appreciate the slow process of generational change, the inexorable movement of reality and the Spirit, but he would have little good to say about American public policy at home or abroad. He did not dream of an imperial military nightmare or a new Depression with the worst gap between wealth and poverty in the developed world.

DRC's picture
DRC
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.

How come conservatives don't practice those traits in applying their social, political, and economic philosophies?[/quote]

You are definitely correct. We can try to live by the standards listed above but we often fall short. But you must be willing to take off your blinders. We are all imperfect. Including me and my liberal friends.

Don't even DARE to try to set up a false equivalency between the social, cultural, and economic tenets of real liberalism and what you freaks and vampires on the Right do and believe in, because no such equivalency has ever existed. We're not "all" the same on those issues. The Right doesn't give a damn about anybody but its own, and there's absolutely NO equivalency between that and liberalism. Liberals tolerate all non-violent positions while conservatives tolerate only their own. When liberal positions are enacted into laws, the people at the bottom and in the middle see their lots in life improve, while the rich do not suffer. When conservative positions are enacted into laws, the people at the bottom and in the middle suffer while the rich get richer. So go peddle you stupid false equivalency elsewhere.

I’m not sure where you stand on the McAllister deal. Are you saying that this is a right wing conspiracy? That she is actually an evil conservative black woman hired by fox to make anti semetic remarks? She was not really a teacher for L.A. public schools? Or do you believe that she is not a bigot and should not have been fired? If this is a fake don’t you think that it would have been uncovered by the liberal media by now? There is no doubt this would have been debunked by now. I listed another source to assist you with lifting your head from the sand.

You haven't even addressed the points I made differentiating Judaism and Zionism, and that demonstrates your ignorance and demonstrates the nonsense of your remarks and position. Read a book some time; learn something, and then come back and try to discuss things intelligently, or, better yet, just get lost.

As far as the prayer goes, I already prayed for you. Sorry too late. But I know you are the type who likes to get even. So I guess the only thing you can do is to pray for me.

Oh, I do. Believe me, I do. I pray for you to either learn, be silent, or, best yet, be gone. God speed...

Ulysses's picture
Ulysses
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote Ulysses:

As far as the prayer goes, I already prayed for you. Sorry too late. But I know you are the type who likes to get even. So I guess the only thing you can do is to pray for me.

Oh, I do. Believe me, I do. I pray for you to either learn, be silent, or, best yet, be gone. God speed...

Oh come on U! You would miss me if I were gone. I bring a little ray of sunshine to this forum. Thanks your prayers! I want to learn something new everyday. As i'm sure you do!

rigel1's picture
rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 6:49 am

rigel, I answered your questions earlier. I would appreciate a response other than taunting, for which there is no sunshine or pleasure. When you can bring something creative and better than these talking points we will might enjoy your contributions. Beating up on dogmatic idiots is not that much fun. Be better than that.

DRC's picture
DRC
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Currently Chatting

The Death of the Middle Class was by Design...

Even in the face of the so-called Recovery, poverty and inequality are getting worse in our country, and more wealth and power is flowing straight to the top. According to Paul Buchheit over at Alternet, this is the end result of winner-take-all capitalism, and this destruction of the working class has all been by design.

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