CNN lies MSNBC lies

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Why is it that we hyper-focus on the sins of FOX and totally ignore the mistakes of other networks? I don't believe that everytime FOX, CNN, NBC, MSNBC or any other network mis qoutes, mis reads or mis states something it should be a national scandal and the government needs to shut em down. They all make their share of mistakes. Who makes the most? That should be up to the viewer to decide, not the government. The free market usually finds a way to separate the real from the bogus. You and your friends should decide who to believe not the feds. As far as the media is concerned, I'm pro choice.

I don't expect you to watch all of the lies from the videos below, but the first one is very short and quite entertaining.

Enjoy!!!

CNN

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuDNhY0bUv0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-rpXBpnBO0

MSNBC

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...es-interviews/
"President Bush never did one interview with the New York Times during his entire presidency."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...black-panther/
Fox News "said the New Black Panther Party decided the election for Barack Obama."
"President Bush never did one interview with the New York Times during his entire presidency."

http://www.democrats.com/msnbc-lies-...ss-wiretapping
MSNBC Lies about Warrentless Wiretapping

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/kyle-dr...ction-or-apolo
MSNBC Admits: ‘Unable to Verify’ False Limbaugh Quote; No Retraction or Apology

Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/kyle-dr...#ixzz1IDqnsu7M

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/...sin-state-emp/
Under changes being debated, state employees in Wisconsin "who earn $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 a year might have 20 percent of their income just disappear overnight."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...problem-inher/
With his decision on whether to fire Gen. Stanley McChrystal, President Obama "has to fix yet another problem he inherited from the Bush administration."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...n-bp-pac-and-/
"Louisiana Sen. Mary Landrieu received almost $1.8 million from BP over the last decade."

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/...ve-budget-sur/
"Despite what you may have heard about Wisconsin’s finances, Wisconsin is on track to have a budget surplus this year."

Msnbc lies about white gunman at obama speech
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/msnbc-tur…

Keith Olbermann lies about SIOA freedom rally against Islamic mega-mosque
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/keith-…

Keith Olbermann lies, says Sarah Palin is a socialist and described Alaska that way
http://24ahead.com/blog/archives/008242.…

Rachel Maddow lies: Fox had absolutely nothing to do with the Shirley Sherrod story
http://www.ihatethemedia.com/rachel-madd…

In Exposing ACORN ‘Lies,’ Maddow Leaves Truth On the Cutting Room Floor
http://bigjournalism.com/sright/2010/04/…

Keith Olbermann Lies About Kenneth Gladney Attack
http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/20…

rigel1's picture
rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 7:49 am

Comments

FAUX lies on purpose, and that is a huge difference. You keep posting this crap as though there were some parity in the media with the GOP Network of Ailes and its Murdoch journalism. Get a life.

DRC's picture
DRC
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

I watched most of the first one. For the life of me, I can't see why the airing of a statement of opinion by a movie actress would render CNN as dishonest. Ms. Barkin is not, to my knowledge, on the CNN payroll. She doesn't speak for CNN. Did she not make this exact statement? Don't we have photographic proof? Seemed like a pretty honest exposition to me. Didn't really make me curious enough to watch any of the others. Movie actors have all kinds of opinions.

Art's picture
Art
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote rigel1:

Why is it that we hyper-focus on the sins of FOX and totally ignore the mistakes of other networks? I don't believe that everytime FOX, CNN, NBC, MSNBC or any other network mis qoutes, mis reads or mis states something it should be a national scandal and the government needs to shut em down. They all make their share of mistakes. Who makes the most? That should be up to the viewer to decide, not the government. The free market usually finds a way to separate the real from the bogus. You and your friends should decide who to believe not the feds. As far as the media is concerned, I'm pro choice.

I don't expect you to watch all of the lies from the videos below, but the first one is very short and quite entertaining.

Enjoy!!!

CNN

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuDNhY0bUv0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-rpXBpnBO0

MSNBC

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...es-interviews/
"President Bush never did one interview with the New York Times during his entire presidency."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...black-panther/
Fox News "said the New Black Panther Party decided the election for Barack Obama."
"President Bush never did one interview with the New York Times during his entire presidency."

http://www.democrats.com/msnbc-lies-...ss-wiretapping
MSNBC Lies about Warrentless Wiretapping

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/kyle-dr...ction-or-apolo
MSNBC Admits: ‘Unable to Verify’ False Limbaugh Quote; No Retraction or Apology

Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/kyle-dr...#ixzz1IDqnsu7M

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/...sin-state-emp/
Under changes being debated, state employees in Wisconsin "who earn $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 a year might have 20 percent of their income just disappear overnight."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...problem-inher/
With his decision on whether to fire Gen. Stanley McChrystal, President Obama "has to fix yet another problem he inherited from the Bush administration."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...n-bp-pac-and-/
"Louisiana Sen. Mary Landrieu received almost $1.8 million from BP over the last decade."

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/...ve-budget-sur/
"Despite what you may have heard about Wisconsin’s finances, Wisconsin is on track to have a budget surplus this year."

Msnbc lies about white gunman at obama speech
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/msnbc-tur…

Keith Olbermann lies about SIOA freedom rally against Islamic mega-mosque
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/keith-…

Keith Olbermann lies, says Sarah Palin is a socialist and described Alaska that way
http://24ahead.com/blog/archives/008242.…

Rachel Maddow lies: Fox had absolutely nothing to do with the Shirley Sherrod story
http://www.ihatethemedia.com/rachel-madd…

In Exposing ACORN ‘Lies,’ Maddow Leaves Truth On the Cutting Room Floor
http://bigjournalism.com/sright/2010/04/…

Keith Olbermann Lies About Kenneth Gladney Attack
http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/20…

I knew you would come back here with a bag full of goodies........You should have waited till Christmas eve to hand them out though....

Thanks............

Sprinklerfitter's picture
Sprinklerfitter
Joined:
Sep. 1, 2011 6:49 am

I don't trust CNN, MSNBC, ABC, the whole lot. I need information. We all need information. What was FOX saying, after Littleboots was already safely reelected, about the looming debt catastrophe in the housing market? What was FOX saying when the DOW hit 14,000 in August 2007 and when subsequently the credit markets seized up?

And I don't rely on Thom Hartmann either.

chilidog
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

My favorite part here is that rigel1 decided to make an entire new thread on this topic so the previous one where this conversation began doesn't follow him. Now he has ejected any responsibility for answering the challenges of those of us who took the time to respond to his original post.

For those who are now following this thread, please refer to where rigel1 got owned here:

http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/28

I must go to bed now rigel1 but you can be sure that I will be visiting your most recent post very soon.

ah2
Joined:
Dec. 13, 2010 10:00 pm
Quote ah2:

My favorite part here is that rigel1 decided to make an entire new thread on this topic so the previous one where this conversation began doesn't follow him. Now he has ejected any responsibility for answering the challenges of those of us who took the time to respond to his original post.

For those who are now following this thread, please refer to where rigel1 got owned here:

http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/28

I must go to bed now rigel1 but you can be sure that I will be visiting your most recent post very soon.

Don't worry he'll be back......Repugnuts always got to have the last word.....It's one of the many flaws they are born with.

Sprinklerfitter's picture
Sprinklerfitter
Joined:
Sep. 1, 2011 6:49 am
Quote Art:

I watched most of the first one. For the life of me, I can't see why the airing of a statement of opinion by a movie actress would render CNN as dishonest. Ms. Barkin is not, to my knowledge, on the CNN payroll. She doesn't speak for CNN. Did she not make this exact statement? Don't we have photographic proof? Seemed like a pretty honest exposition to me. Didn't really make me curious enough to watch any of the others. Movie actors have all kinds of opinions.

I know. I get it. Trust me. I knew before I posted this that the liberal media would be given a pass. The sins of every media outlet will be forgiven unless they are called FOX. Liberals have a very high standard for FOX and no standards what so ever for the liberal media. Again, I get it.

Here is the problem with Ellen Barkin. When a conservative guest on FOX says something that is un true the liberals use it as an example of a FOX lie. CNN gets let off the hook when they do the same thing. They let her say this and did nothing to challenge it. They still have done nothing to set the record straight. They let her lie, and have no problem with letting the lie stand.

rigel1's picture
rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 7:49 am
Quote Sprinklerfitter:
Quote ah2:

My favorite part here is that rigel1 decided to make an entire new thread on this topic so the previous one where this conversation began doesn't follow him. Now he has ejected any responsibility for answering the challenges of those of us who took the time to respond to his original post.

For those who are now following this thread, please refer to where rigel1 got owned here:

http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/28

I must go to bed now rigel1 but you can be sure that I will be visiting your most recent post very soon.

Don't worry he'll be back......Repugnuts always got to have the last word.....It's one of the many flaws they are born with.

You seem to be an expert at pointing out the flaws of others. I would bet you are not so gifted at recognizing your own short comings. What flaws were you born with oh pompous one?

rigel1's picture
rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 7:49 am
Quote DRC:

FAUX lies on purpose, and that is a huge difference. You keep posting this crap as though there were some parity in the media with the GOP Network of Ailes and its Murdoch journalism. Get a life.

So none of the things that I listed were done purposefully? Are you just a trusting soul or can back this statement up? Explain why you have som much uncondidtional trust for these people. I'll make you a deal. I will "get a life" if you will get anger management training. Deal?

rigel1's picture
rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 7:49 am
Quote ah2:

My favorite part here is that rigel1 decided to make an entire new thread on this topic so the previous one where this conversation began doesn't follow him. Now he has ejected any responsibility for answering the challenges of those of us who took the time to respond to his original post.

For those who are now following this thread, please refer to where rigel1 got owned here:

http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/28

I must go to bed now rigel1 but you can be sure that I will be visiting your most recent post very soon.

I think part of the problem is that Ya'll don't like getting your asses kicked by FOX. FOX is crushing the competition in the ratings. And you can't take it so FOX must be cheating. They must be shut down. If you can't win you're gonna take your ball and go home. Well quit complaining cause it ain't never gonna happen. I know it's no fun getting kicked around by FOX. But the view from the top is GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRReat!

Yes I did post this twice. But I have an excuse. It's one my many personal flaws that ya'll seem to be obsessed with pointing out. When I'm on the winning team, I like to gloat a little. Victory is sweet.

rigel1's picture
rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 7:49 am
Here is the problem with Ellen Barkin. When a conservative guest on FOX says something that is un true the liberals use it as an example of a FOX lie.

Not exactly true. Fox is excoriated for failure to challenge fact-giving by people who Fox presents as source authorities. Washington insiders, Generals, other official opinion-makers. Nobody cares what Mel Gibson or Victoria Jackson or Chuck Norris might have said on Fox News. Nobody cares whether Fox News challenges them. Besides, Nobody expects honesty on Fox News. It should be flattering to Liberals that Bill O'Really does expect such a high standard on HLN.

Art's picture
Art
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote rigel1:
Quote ah2:

My favorite part here is that rigel1 decided to make an entire new thread on this topic so the previous one where this conversation began doesn't follow him. Now he has ejected any responsibility for answering the challenges of those of us who took the time to respond to his original post.

For those who are now following this thread, please refer to where rigel1 got owned here:

http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/28

I must go to bed now rigel1 but you can be sure that I will be visiting your most recent post very soon.

I think part of the problem is that Ya'll don't like getting your asses kicked by FOX. FOX is crushing the competition in the ratings. And you can't take it so FOX must be cheating. They must be shut down. If you can't win you're gonna take your ball and go home. Well quit complaining cause it ain't never gonna happen. I know it's no fun getting kicked around by FOX. But the view from the top is GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRReat!

Yes I did post this twice. But I have an excuse. It's one my many personal flaws that ya'll seem to be obsessed with pointing out. When I'm on the winning team, I like to gloat a little. Victory is sweet.

Rigel1, not once did I call for Fox to be shut down. Not once. I also don't care that they have higher ratings. What I care about is that they call themselves News and they get a press pass for entertainment television.

And no rigel1, you are not on the "winning" team whatever that means. We are all US citizens and we ALL LOSE when we have News outlets lying to their viewers - even if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy and apeases your simple little minds.

ah2
Joined:
Dec. 13, 2010 10:00 pm
Quote rigel1:
Quote ah2:

My favorite part here is that rigel1 decided to make an entire new thread on this topic so the previous one where this conversation began doesn't follow him. Now he has ejected any responsibility for answering the challenges of those of us who took the time to respond to his original post.

For those who are now following this thread, please refer to where rigel1 got owned here:

http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/28

I must go to bed now rigel1 but you can be sure that I will be visiting your most recent post very soon.

I think part of the problem is that Ya'll don't like getting your asses kicked by FOX. FOX is crushing the competition in the ratings. And you can't take it so FOX must be cheating. They must be shut down. If you can't win you're gonna take your ball and go home. Well quit complaining cause it ain't never gonna happen. I know it's no fun getting kicked around by FOX. But the view from the top is GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRReat!

Yes I did post this twice. But I have an excuse. It's one my many personal flaws that ya'll seem to be obsessed with pointing out. When I'm on the winning team, I like to gloat a little. Victory is sweet.

Rigel:

I felt the need to post this twice as well. I don't require an excuse.

High ratings says less about the quality of the product than it does about the high number of people who are so easily mislead by the slight of hand as they are spiraling down the Fox sinkhole to Hell.

Just last night I was watching Ed Schultz talk about the authoritarian takeover of several cities in Michigan which disenfranchises Americans from the having a say in the governing of their communities. Then I turned the channel to Fox and saw O'Reilly showing a skeleton in a Santa costume being hung in effigy to illustrate the "War on Christmas". I ask you Rigel, which of those stories is more important and newsworthy? Which of those stories do you figure gets better ratings?

Laborisgood's picture
Laborisgood
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Okay, so I didn't have time to really address this today but I am going to do it anyway since rigel1 seems content to declare an early victory.

Quote rigel1:

Why is it that we hyper-focus on the sins of FOX and totally ignore the mistakes of other networks? I don't believe that everytime FOX, CNN, NBC, MSNBC or any other network mis qoutes, mis reads or mis states something it should be a national scandal and the government needs to shut em down. They all make their share of mistakes. Who makes the most? That should be up to the viewer to decide, not the government. The free market usually finds a way to separate the real from the bogus. You and your friends should decide who to believe not the feds. As far as the media is concerned, I'm pro choice.

I don't expect you to watch all of the lies from the videos below, but the first one is very short and quite entertaining.

Enjoy!!!

CNN

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuDNhY0bUv0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-rpXBpnBO0

Are you aware that the second video you posted shows that Fox was lying about CNN lying? Thank you for proving my point for me.

Quote rigel1:

MSNBC

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...es-interviews/
"President Bush never did one interview with the New York Times during his entire presidency."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...black-panther/
Fox News "said the New Black Panther Party decided the election for Barack Obama."
"President Bush never did one interview with the New York Times during his entire presidency."

http://www.democrats.com/msnbc-lies-...ss-wiretapping
MSNBC Lies about Warrentless Wiretapping

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/kyle-dr...ction-or-apolo
MSNBC Admits: ‘Unable to Verify’ False Limbaugh Quote; No Retraction or Apology

Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/kyle-dr...#ixzz1IDqnsu7M

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/...sin-state-emp/
Under changes being debated, state employees in Wisconsin "who earn $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 a year might have 20 percent of their income just disappear overnight."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...problem-inher/
With his decision on whether to fire Gen. Stanley McChrystal, President Obama "has to fix yet another problem he inherited from the Bush administration."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...n-bp-pac-and-/
"Louisiana Sen. Mary Landrieu received almost $1.8 million from BP over the last decade."

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/...ve-budget-sur/
"Despite what you may have heard about Wisconsin’s finances, Wisconsin is on track to have a budget surplus this year."

Msnbc lies about white gunman at obama speech
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/msnbc-tur…

Keith Olbermann lies about SIOA freedom rally against Islamic mega-mosque
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/keith-…

Keith Olbermann lies, says Sarah Palin is a socialist and described Alaska that way
http://24ahead.com/blog/archives/008242.…

Rachel Maddow lies: Fox had absolutely nothing to do with the Shirley Sherrod story
http://www.ihatethemedia.com/rachel-madd…

In Exposing ACORN ‘Lies,’ Maddow Leaves Truth On the Cutting Room Floor
http://bigjournalism.com/sright/2010/04/…

Keith Olbermann Lies About Kenneth Gladney Attack
http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/20…

Okay rigel1, I don't know whether you were simply expecting no one to take the time to go through all the links but the last half of them don't even work. Forgive me also, if I consider none of the Brietbart sources you posted to be accurate at all.

I do however respect poltifact. However, note that they also have been wrong from time to time and it occurs to me as I read some of their reviews, they also are reading things in isolation rather than in context. For example, their analysis of the New Black Panther while accurate to some degree, ignores that during this time Fox was covering several groups like this, the most noteable being ACORN. Taken altogether, Fox was most certainly trying to accuse the myriad of groups, including the New Black Panther Party, of voter suppression and fraud to swing the election. I would also point out that Maddow made this comment on David Letterman - an entertainment show that has no pretense of being news - not her news segment on MSNBC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgvBdlD7xUk

In the end, you have about 10 links, the majority of which are about a single individual - Rachel Maddow - on a single news station - MSNBC. When Fox comes out with a lie, the will regurgitate it on every single show and every single hour of the day. Not only that but the conservative radio stations pick it up and do the same thing. Then it goes out into the blogosphere and conservative journalists pick it up and throw it out there too. So, one lie gets reiterated thousands of times over the course of a week. How many times was the Black Panther comment Maddow made repeated? None. And when Maddow was confronted by politifact about it, what did she do? Her staff submitted a clarification/retraction. An apology would have been even better but at least they admitt they were wrong when it happens. Fox NEVER does. Never. If they do, they chalk it up to "mistake."

So, either Fox lies or they are the biggest fuck ups in the industry. Either way, you have to have standards at some point of what we call "News."

ah2
Joined:
Dec. 13, 2010 10:00 pm
Quote chilidog:

I don't trust CNN, MSNBC, ABC, the whole lot. I need information. We all need information. What was FOX saying, after Littleboots was already safely reelected, about the looming debt catastrophe in the housing market? What was FOX saying when the DOW hit 14,000 in August 2007 and when subsequently the credit markets seized up?

And I don't rely on Thom Hartmann either.

Exactly! You nailed it. Since your news is brought to you by human beings, it will contain their human bias. That is the difference between us and the rest of the folks here. We can see it. We don't give any of them a free ride. They all have an angle. As a consumer you must decide, which angle you want. Celebrate free speech and choose who you want to listen to.

rigel1's picture
rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 7:49 am
Quote rigel1:
Quote chilidog:

I don't trust CNN, MSNBC, ABC, the whole lot. I need information. We all need information. What was FOX saying, after Littleboots was already safely reelected, about the looming debt catastrophe in the housing market? What was FOX saying when the DOW hit 14,000 in August 2007 and when subsequently the credit markets seized up?

And I don't rely on Thom Hartmann either.

Exactly! You nailed it. Since your news is brought to you by human beings, it will contain their human bias. That is the difference between us and the rest of the folks here. We can see it. We don't give any of them a free ride. They all have an angle. As a consumer you must decide, which angle you want. Celebrate free speech and choose who you want to listen to.

Bias, opinion, and lying are all different things. These are discrete concepts. You should look them up.

ah2
Joined:
Dec. 13, 2010 10:00 pm

Oreally said it was an opinion show then asked them to not lie. How is an opinion a lie? Does this make my butt look too big? is a question seeking an opinion. Ellen Barkin did not even offer an unsolicited opinion, Joy Behar asked if he called her a pinhead, she thought so, or something like that. Fox can define the difference between pinhead, assholes, or misguided, but even that is not news, just opinion. Famous people were oreally.s major topic, famous people can't sue he said. So in his opinion he is famous, or he would sue.

News is best kept separate. Fox is not news. http://www.newsprism.com/ offers diversity. One should not read everything they believe.

Journalism does exist and it has nothing to do with fox, which is entertainment.

http://www.cjr.org/

douglaslee's picture
douglaslee
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

How New York handles taxes is one side not given coverage. But since millionaires are having their tax cut expire, this small bit is being covered. All the millionaires will leave is the storyline. Raise our taxes and we'll look elsewhere. Tax credits ought to be in exchange for a fixed term of corporate reciprocity. The credit can be clawed back should the company leave before it's term is fulfilled.

douglaslee's picture
douglaslee
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote rigel1:

I think part of the problem is that Ya'll don't like getting your asses kicked by FOX. FOX is crushing the competition in the ratings.

As a consumer you must decide, which angle you want. Celebrate free speech and choose who you want to listen to.

Think about that.

chilidog
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote chilidog:
Quote rigel1:

I think part of the problem is that Ya'll don't like getting your asses kicked by FOX. FOX is crushing the competition in the ratings.

As a consumer you must decide, which angle you want. Celebrate free speech and choose who you want to listen to.

Think about that.

It's that simple. Choosing to fill your head with right wing propaganda is no different than choosing which pair of socks you're gonna wear for the day. It's a simple choice. No harm, no foul.

Laborisgood's picture
Laborisgood
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

I HAVE NEVER EVEN SUGGESTED THAT FOX NEWS SHOULD BE SHUT DOWN OR PEOPLE SHOULD NOT HAVE THE CHOICE TO WATCH WHAT THEY WANT. PEOPLE CAN WATCH WHAT EVER THE HELL THET CHOOSE TO. I DON'T GIVE A CRAP IF RIGEL AND CHILI SIT AROUND WATCHING FOX NEWS, MASTRUBATING IN THEIR OWN FECES. DO WHAT YOU WANT.

What I have said time and time again, is that when you LABEL SOMETHING NEWS, that it should have certain standards.

IF FOX CHANGED IT'S NAME TO FOX ENTERTAINMENT TELEVISION TOMORROW, WE WOULD NOT EVEN BE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION.

ah2
Joined:
Dec. 13, 2010 10:00 pm

LOL

I don't watch FOX News.

And I don't masturbate in my own feces.

"not that there's anything wrong with that."

chilidog
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote ah2:

I HAVE NEVER EVEN SUGGESTED THAT FOX NEWS SHOULD BE SHUT DOWN OR PEOPLE SHOULD NOT HAVE THE CHOICE TO WATCH WHAT THEY WANT. PEOPLE CAN WATCH WHAT EVER THE HELL THET CHOOSE TO. I DON'T GIVE A CRAP IF RIGEL AND CHILI SIT AROUND WATCHING FOX NEWS, MASTRUBATING IN THEIR OWN FECES. DO WHAT YOU WANT.

What I have said time and time again, is that when you LABEL SOMETHING NEWS, that it should have certain standards.

IF FOX CHANGED IT'S NAME TO FOX ENTERTAINMENT TELEVISION TOMORROW, WE WOULD NOT EVEN BE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION.

Isn't there standards for "cheap" so called entertainment even fixed news has to follow?....... They are pure propaganda and if people are stupid to watch that crap and believe so be it. I learned along time ago there's always going to be stupid people no matter what you try to show them that is the truth. One website I use to go to all the time is full of those types. Most of them have no interest in learning just repeat what they hear on the radio and tv and try to pass it off as fact. After I retired not to long ago and when I'm not at the lake I'm more interested in learning from smarter people than arguing with frickin idiots. After watching Thom on TV and looking at this site for a year or more I feel like I made the right choice in joining. So far I've followed many links that the members here have provided for some interesting articles and sites.

Sprinklerfitter's picture
Sprinklerfitter
Joined:
Sep. 1, 2011 6:49 am

you're too funny chilidog... but on a side note, Daniel Yergin is talking to Fahreed Zackaria on CNN...(kinda a note to self) about fracking...."the risks are very, very tiny...."....fuckers.

I have no problem calling for FOX fake news to be dimantled, destroyed or defuncted. Some censorship is acceptable. Child pornography is considered criminal and is censored despite that pesky free speech amendment. Unlike Faux though, child porn isn't complicit in death through poverty and lack of healthcare or destruction of the biosphere through climate confusion and promotion of environmental deregulating, etc. Right wingers like the Weeper-of the House continue to promote the most obvious and insideous lies that have real-world ramifications and toxic effects.

Perhaps it's time for the anarchists, the ELF folks and thier ilk of vandalous destructive youthful rebelliousness to rethink what they've been doing. It would probably be more effective to throw monkey wrenches into the cogs of the Fox machine.

MEJ's picture
MEJ
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Trying to defeat Fox News is much like trying to "defeat" the Soviet Union before the fall of the Berlin Wall. It was common knowledge that the Soviets had lost, long before the wall came down. Most who watch Fox News know full well that it's not neutral news. Hell, they don't want neutral news. People know how to get information, they just prefer supporting material to bolster their chosen ideology. Too many people who are opposed the Fox ideology seem to give Fox way too much credit for the supposed power they yield, just like the anti-commie crowd back in the day. That wall is going to fall down sooner or later because it has a very weak foundation. In the mean time, making fun of Fox is far more productive than fighting against it.

Laborisgood's picture
Laborisgood
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

yeah sure, that's like saying, "Jerry (Sandusky) will fall sooner or later. There's no need for us to turn him in so let's just make fun of the pedophile for now."

the years teach much that the days never know

MEJ's picture
MEJ
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Fox news supporters are Dolts that tune into fox to validate their own twisted, bigoted hateful views. They have no interest in hearing the other side, they just want confirmation.

So far I'd say it's working!

Sprinklerfitter's picture
Sprinklerfitter
Joined:
Sep. 1, 2011 6:49 am

Once again, here is the backstory about how FOX evolved into its present day form. They operate according to a business model which understands that what gets reported as news need not necessarily be the truth. This is not a defense of other news networks, simply an observation about FOX.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4eAN_qGW3U

mdhess's picture
mdhess
Joined:
Apr. 9, 2010 11:43 pm

Okay fine. You can choose to ignore FOX and take your business elsewhere or you can be obsessed with them and make your selves miserable.

FOX is never going to do anything to make you happy. You might as well give up trying to change them. You will fail. Or you can continue to obsess, drive yourselves crazy and wallow in your misery. It's your call. It's a free market. The people have chosen FOX. Power to the people!

rigel1's picture
rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 7:49 am

As I said earlier, these discussions are pretty much irrelevant these days.

Art's picture
Art
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote rigel1:

Okay fine. You can choose to ignore FOX and take your business elsewhere or you can be obsessed with them and make your selves miserable.

FOX is never going to do anything to make you happy. You might as well give up trying to change them. You will fail. Or you can continue to obsess, drive yourselves crazy and wallow in your misery. It's your call. It's a free market. The people have chosen FOX. Power to the people!

Its not a matter of obsessing, its a matter of educating. Many people are ignorant of the fact that they are being bamboozled, they think they're watching a legitimate news organization. The more that people are exposed to diverse views the more they turn away from the dark side. I know that frightens you conservatives. Why else would you be here trying to persuade others to stop exposing the fraud FOX perpetrates?

mdhess's picture
mdhess
Joined:
Apr. 9, 2010 11:43 pm
Quote rigel1:

Okay fine. You can choose to ignore FOX and take your business elsewhere or you can be obsessed with them and make your selves miserable.

FOX is never going to do anything to make you happy. You might as well give up trying to change them. You will fail. Or you can continue to obsess, drive yourselves crazy and wallow in your misery. It's your call. It's a free market. The people have chosen FOX. Power to the people!

Yep just accept the world the way it is right, rigel? Thanks for the advice... lol.

ah2
Joined:
Dec. 13, 2010 10:00 pm
Quote rigel1:

Okay fine. You can choose to ignore FOX and take your business elsewhere or you can be obsessed with them and make your selves miserable.

FOX is never going to do anything to make you happy. You might as well give up trying to change them. You will fail. Or you can continue to obsess, drive yourselves crazy and wallow in your misery. It's your call. It's a free market. The people have chosen FOX. Power to the people!

Damn......How much koolaid can one person drink rigel?.......Here ya go ....http://youtu.be/iHGUpxtfcoc

mdhess is right on the money!

Sprinklerfitter's picture
Sprinklerfitter
Joined:
Sep. 1, 2011 6:49 am

The only people who think Fox is "winning" anything are Fox News viewers. How do they know? Fox News told them so.... lol

Too funny.

ah2
Joined:
Dec. 13, 2010 10:00 pm

Randi Rhodes makes a point of telling her audience not to trust her because of the medium she works in. She wants people to do the homework, go to the sources and question opinions as well as expose lies. I think Thom has said something similar on many occasions, but it is clear that he is not making stuff up.

Rachel and others on MSNBC will correct errors when brought to their attention. They also make the point of not claiming to be "journalists" when they are doing opinion and entertainment is part of the deal. Parody and hyperbole in a comic effect are not the same thing as putting out false stories as if they were journalism. FAUX opinion shows like O'Reilly's tired act for the nursing home audience are not the point. It is what they claim as "news" that really hits the crapola meter.

rigel, the idea that you are a critical consumer of the news evaporates when you claim the FAUX flag as your own. You are a member of the cult, not a critical consumer or you would not go there for anything other than ideological reinforcement and the historical rewrites that fit your narrative.

You have not engaged critics with anything other than the old, "you are as bad as we are" bs. There is no equivalency between what FAUX does and what anyone else does on the Left. We have no propaganda network, only a few hours of opinion while FAUX is full time fake news and nonsense.

I wish there were an intelligent conservative journalism to counter the imperial DC consensus like Amy Goodman and Democracy Now. Again, one show, one hour a weekday. Hardly the media balance needed.

As to anger management, I have a fine control over reactive anger and reserve anger for energy and persistence dealing with people who abuse power over others. I can be an Obama supporter and still be a critic. What I want as a Progressive is not what the Democratic Party is currently "for." But we can work with them, not with the totally bought GOPimps and Tea Party fools.

Tea Party Fools because they let themselves be used in the interests of the same people that are screwing them as members of the 99. Because it is the 99 against the 1, as the economic stats make clear, there is a huge diversity of political opinion, perspective and strategic thinking in the 99.

Some of them are conservatives who see capitalism being screwed by these imperial banksters and warmongers. Others have seen social democracy and think it makes a lot of sense, just as Single Payer and a universal risk pool is the clear way to go for a national health care system.

Point being, it is not your ideas that pisses me off. It is your arrogance and emptiness, and even then it is the fact that you post crap, not that you are a pitiful person that is at issue here. The board has not been improved by your submissions, and I know a number of conservatives who have been great to have in conversation here. They actually bring ideas and are not trying to convince us that FAUX is just another opinion site.

DRC's picture
DRC
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Interesting article here. Faux News loses 30% in prime time. MSNBC and CNN making good gains. Funny how we pay any attention to the viewing preferences of .01% of the American public (that's Faux News' viewership).

Art's picture
Art
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Sprinklerfitter:
Quote rigel1:

Okay fine. You can choose to ignore FOX and take your business elsewhere or you can be obsessed with them and make your selves miserable.

FOX is never going to do anything to make you happy. You might as well give up trying to change them. You will fail. Or you can continue to obsess, drive yourselves crazy and wallow in your misery. It's your call. It's a free market. The people have chosen FOX. Power to the people!

Damn......How much koolaid can one person drink rigel?.......Here ya go ....http://youtu.be/iHGUpxtfcoc

mdhess is right on the money!

Seriously I doubt that many of the conservatives here drink much of that kool-aid but rather happily and eagerly make more of it and try to color or flavor it differently to get others to drink their poisonous lies.

I call these people what they are and it is that they are liars just like FAUX and proud of it to boot.

I also like to call them what they are EXACTLY are and that is the enemy of the majority of all Americans and unapologetic supporters of the filthy uber-rich.

Dominic C
Joined:
Jun. 27, 2011 10:39 am
Quote ah2:

My favorite part here is that rigel1 decided to make an entire new thread on this topic so the previous one where this conversation began doesn't follow him. Now he has ejected any responsibility for answering the challenges of those of us who took the time to respond to his original post.

For those who are now following this thread, please refer to where rigel1 got owned here:

http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/28

I must go to bed now rigel1 but you can be sure that I will be visiting your most recent post very soon.

He has done this with me a few times to. Once he gets owned he disappears and pregtends that last post never existed. I have tried to get him to come back numerous times and he would evade it EVERY single time.

Then he has to nerve to hurl insults and lie and claims to be right when he has proven to be a liar and wrong countless times on these boards.

I'm glad somebody else mentioned this.

Up to the top for you rigel1!

Dominic C
Joined:
Jun. 27, 2011 10:39 am
Quote Dominic C:
Quote ah2:

My favorite part here is that rigel1 decided to make an entire new thread on this topic so the previous one where this conversation began doesn't follow him. Now he has ejected any responsibility for answering the challenges of those of us who took the time to respond to his original post.

For those who are now following this thread, please refer to where rigel1 got owned here:

http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/28

I must go to bed now rigel1 but you can be sure that I will be visiting your most recent post very soon.

He has done this with me a few times to. Once he gets owned he disappears and pregtends that last post never existed. I have tried to get him to come back numerous times and he would evade it EVERY single time.

Then he has to nerve to hurl insults and lie and claims to be right when he has proven to be a liar and wrong countless times on these boards.

I'm glad somebody else mentioned this.

Up to the top for you rigel1!

Not exactly. Here is the deal. You may not like it, but here it is. After a post has had a dozen or so responses, very little new info is exchanged and it becomes a little stale and boring. I do not purposefully ignore a question. If there is a question that you posed that you would like me to reply to please re post it here and I will reply. I ask for your patience. Do you know how hard it is for one conservative to keep up with the replies of 50 liberals? As one would expect, things get missed. Thats the deal. No cover up, no hiding. I hope that clears thinks up.

As for hurling insults: That is a flat out cheap shot. I don't do it. I will respond to an un provoked insult to me, but no I don't hurl insults. Please post any unprovoked insults that I have made. (I don't expect to see any)

rigel1's picture
rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 7:49 am

Mostly insults to our intelligence, but continually trying to "expose" the hypocrisy of the Left when you ignore the incredible practices on the Right and want us to equate a few mistakes or mistatements with the FAUX propaganda assault is tiresome and obviously biased.

Why people choose lies over truth is fairly easy to parse. Emotional comfort is part of the frame of ideology. You get to project the problems onto those who challenge the narrative frame and construct them according to your needs instead of what they actually embrace as their position.

I don't think we take the MSNBC etc. as Gospel as do the FAUX devotees. Nor do the talking heads claim to be delivering the Word of God, I know Beck is gone, but... In fact, most of us over here know that the filters on what is reported on the TV keeps to the Right of Michael Moore. Greg Palast has to work in England.

Smart people choose Scientology, so this is not an argument about who is more stupid. It is about who wants to be fooled and who is ready to have the national myth deconstructed, analyzed and "kicked" as a bad trip. We have to get over the American Century and all the narcissism, hubris and moralism associated with it. America is not the story of some unfolding vision of humanity. It is about wiping out people to grab their land and stuff. It is about the myth that makes that the work of God. And, it is about a recently Viking culture of rape and pillage baptizing itself as the leading edge of human civilization in the "modern world."

People may prefer to believe the hagiography of our history and thrill at being so special and "exceptional," but it does not work out well. Others may be into criticism, having already had their naivete exposed and the myth crumble. How well they can get beyond negativity is their challenge, but it does not make the ideology less toxic or those who believe it fervently more correct.

I would advise you to get over your pride and appreciate that you do not answer our questions about democracy and participation in power as the definition of real freedom. It has been demonstrated that higher taxes on the upper end produces more jobs than lower ones. Only those with the ability to speak power to truth can get away with this crap. We can pose all the correct criticisms of the past several decades and still be met with the moralistic religious crap about who earned and deserves to keep money. Nobody does, in the sense that getting excess capital back into the system is the duty of the players in the game if the health of the game is meaningful. I think it is, and that greed is not the correct incentive. When you begin with democracy, the design of an economic system, the rules and refs and playing field, begin to fall into place.

I believe that corporatism is the enemy of democracy. The issue of government is what kind, and not "how big or small." Empires are cancerous growth pathologies, but they rarely do a good job of governing at home or abroad. When states insure broad participation and take care of human needs, states are great democratic governing tools. Progressives are for democracy and all that follows. We are not about centralizing command and control and all for indigenous ownership of the Commons and the economy.

In the present corrupt culture, FAUX is a serious example of the pathology. Understanding why it is not just dismissed as incorrect and unreliable matters, particularly to people who believe in education and reason to mediate our political and cultural divides. Where are the real journalists defending the integrity of their profession? Colbert and Stewart do more than any of the Lamestream newspeople. What gives? Do you understand what drives Amy Goodman? Would you confuse it with the way the FAUX boobettes operate?

DRC's picture
DRC
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote DRC:

It has been demonstrated that higher taxes on the upper end produces more jobs than lower ones.

Would you confuse it with the way the FAUX boobettes operate?

I'm not going to argue the higher taxes thing. But rich and poor people have one thing in common. They despise having the fruits of their labor wasted. Trillions of dollars flushed down the toilet and they only ask for more, more, and more. We are tired of being lied to and taken advantage of. The last time we had a balanced budget your government claimed that they would use the surplus from a tax increase to pay down the debt. They lied. The money went to new wasteful spending. The opportunity was blown. The D's and R's screwed us. The money is now all gone and we have nothing to show for it. All most of us are asking is that they make real spending cuts BEFORE they demand more money. Don't pull that football out from under us again.

Boobettes? Sounds a little sexist. But I will agree conservative women are fine!!!

rigel1's picture
rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 7:49 am
Quote rigel1:

Not exactly. Here is the deal. You may not like it, but here it is. After a post has had a dozen or so responses, very little new info is exchanged and it becomes a little stale and boring. I do not purposefully ignore a question. If there is a question that you posed that you would like me to reply to please re post it here and I will reply. I ask for your patience. Do you know how hard it is for one conservative to keep up with the replies of 50 liberals? As one would expect, things get missed. Thats the deal. No cover up, no hiding. I hope that clears thinks up.

Well Rigel, I believe DRC asked you 3 simple questions in the last paragraph of his last post (#41). Would you like to answer them?

Here they are if you need help:

Where are the real journalists defending the integrity of their profession? Colbert and Stewart do more than any of the Lamestream newspeople. What gives? Do you understand what drives Amy Goodman? Would you confuse it with the way the FAUX boobettes operate?

Laborisgood's picture
Laborisgood
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

While I await an answer to the question instead of another assertion of non-fact or spin, first I will admit that "boobette" is disrespectful, but earned by the "newsmodels" on FAUX. It is they who dress inappropriately for a journalist and whose "sexiness" is sold as part of the Ideological Fix. I am not turned on by women who dress to male fantasies or what our cultural image is supposed to be. Like the beer ads, these bimbos are only smarter than the guys who fall over in lust or are just dumber beerheads.

As to the idea that both the rich and the poor despise having the fruits of their labor wasted, it is a lot more complex than that. Many of the uber-rich make money off the "government waste" and are behind the lobbying (bribing) of our selected representatives. Then there is what is considered "waste." Apparently, taking care of people, having affordable housing, healthcare, free education and great infrastructure is "waste" in the eyes of cons. They have been able to excuse wars and privateer corruption without deserting the GOPimps. If it were Ron Paul in a landslide, I would at least concede principled opposition. When they stop voting for Republicans, I will agree with you about "waste."

Investment is not waste because it pays for itself in created wealth. Those who 'invested' in Empire and Wall St.'s Casino economy and made out as real bandits, not "like them," are the rich.

At the high end of the 99 are a lot of people who think they are of the "elite" but who do not share their special ways of getting filthy or "vulture" rich. Some of them pay high taxes while others have some of the grift. For cultural and "religious" reasons, they tend to blame the poor and dependent for their "suffering" as fruit of their laborers. They like the flattery of being "makers v. takers," and even being junior members of the country club, but not back room elitists, is "success" compared to being part of the 99 at heart.

A lot of people have been taught this religion at any of our nation's many Schools of Business where "economics" has long ago vanished as an academic discipline and become a technique within an ideological narrative of "business managers and owners against the overhead costs of labor." The idea that paying decent wages and manufacturing in America would contribute to a healthy Middle Class society was not attractive to these greedy little souls. I know, I was chaplain at Stanford Biz Chapel for a couple of years. I saw the last of Corporate Responsibility as an agenda item as Supply Side took off on its disaster course.

I do not consider taxes invested in the support and opportunity of my fellow citizens to be "wasted." I think bureacracies can be problems in public or private institutions. I think dogma can make some ideas about how to do education, healthcare, transportation, communication need change; but I don't see why democracy is banned from these areas so private agents can exploit them. Much easier to reform government than to dislodge established money in Commerce when they establish their "entitlements." Markets are not any answer to organized money. They just crush the competition. Who stops them? Not consumers. Not better gangsters.

DRC's picture
DRC
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote DRC:

While I await an answer to the question instead of another assertion of non-fact or spin, first I will admit that "boobette" is disrespectful, but earned by the "newsmodels" on FAUX. It is they who dress inappropriately for a journalist and whose "sexiness" is sold as part of the Ideological Fix. I am not turned on by women who dress to male fantasies or what our cultural image is supposed to be. Like the beer ads, these bimbos are only smarter than the guys who fall over in lust or are just dumber beerheads.

As to the idea that both the rich and the poor despise having the fruits of their labor wasted, it is a lot more complex than that. Many of the uber-rich make money off the "government waste" and are behind the lobbying (bribing) of our selected representatives. Then there is what is considered "waste." Apparently, taking care of people, having affordable housing, healthcare, free education and great infrastructure is "waste" in the eyes of cons. They have been able to excuse wars and privateer corruption without deserting the GOPimps. If it were Ron Paul in a landslide, I would at least concede principled opposition. When they stop voting for Republicans, I will agree with you about "waste."

Investment is not waste because it pays for itself in created wealth. Those who 'invested' in Empire and Wall St.'s Casino economy and made out as real bandits, not "like them," are the rich.

At the high end of the 99 are a lot of people who think they are of the "elite" but who do not share their special ways of getting filthy or "vulture" rich. Some of them pay high taxes while others have some of the grift. For cultural and "religious" reasons, they tend to blame the poor and dependent for their "suffering" as fruit of their laborers. They like the flattery of being "makers v. takers," and even being junior members of the country club, but not back room elitists, is "success" compared to being part of the 99 at heart.

A lot of people have been taught this religion at any of our nation's many Schools of Business where "economics" has long ago vanished as an academic discipline and become a technique within an ideological narrative of "business managers and owners against the overhead costs of labor." The idea that paying decent wages and manufacturing in America would contribute to a healthy Middle Class society was not attractive to these greedy little souls. I know, I was chaplain at Stanford Biz Chapel for a couple of years. I saw the last of Corporate Responsibility as an agenda item as Supply Side took off on its disaster course.

I do not consider taxes invested in the support and opportunity of my fellow citizens to be "wasted." I think bureacracies can be problems in public or private institutions. I think dogma can make some ideas about how to do education, healthcare, transportation, communication need change; but I don't see why democracy is banned from these areas so private agents can exploit them. Much easier to reform government than to dislodge established money in Commerce when they establish their "entitlements." Markets are not any answer to organized money. They just crush the competition. Who stops them? Not consumers. Not better gangsters.

If you are claiming that the government spends money efficiently then you are in an extreme minority. Very few people deny that the govenment is a money wasting monster on steroids. I could probably research and find 1000 useless programs that the government is blowing money on. If we can't cut spending big time, we will collapse. There is not enough of other people's money to pay the bills. We run up about $100,000 of debt per second. And I do blame the rich. The rich lawyers in the house and senate living off the government tit. The numbers don't lie

I'm not saying that we should not raise taxes. But what is the downside to making the feds prove they will spend it wisely? We tried the tax first method before, and the feds let us down. Again, what is the downside to forcing them to live up to their end of the bargain first?

rigel1's picture
rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 7:49 am
"government waste"

Government spending is no more wasteful than any other transaction. Government spending merely marks the transit of money from one source to another. Every dollar that goesnto Government is destined to become somebody's income, and from there it goes on its merry way through another transaction to another destination, and so forth. It is only when that dollar becomes trapped and ceases to be transacted that it becomes "wasted" from the point of view of the economy.

Art's picture
Art
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote rigel1:
Quote DRC:

While I await an answer to the question instead of another assertion of non-fact or spin, first I will admit that "boobette" is disrespectful, but earned by the "newsmodels" on FAUX. It is they who dress inappropriately for a journalist and whose "sexiness" is sold as part of the Ideological Fix. I am not turned on by women who dress to male fantasies or what our cultural image is supposed to be. Like the beer ads, these bimbos are only smarter than the guys who fall over in lust or are just dumber beerheads.

As to the idea that both the rich and the poor despise having the fruits of their labor wasted, it is a lot more complex than that. Many of the uber-rich make money off the "government waste" and are behind the lobbying (bribing) of our selected representatives. Then there is what is considered "waste." Apparently, taking care of people, having affordable housing, healthcare, free education and great infrastructure is "waste" in the eyes of cons. They have been able to excuse wars and privateer corruption without deserting the GOPimps. If it were Ron Paul in a landslide, I would at least concede principled opposition. When they stop voting for Republicans, I will agree with you about "waste."

Investment is not waste because it pays for itself in created wealth. Those who 'invested' in Empire and Wall St.'s Casino economy and made out as real bandits, not "like them," are the rich.

At the high end of the 99 are a lot of people who think they are of the "elite" but who do not share their special ways of getting filthy or "vulture" rich. Some of them pay high taxes while others have some of the grift. For cultural and "religious" reasons, they tend to blame the poor and dependent for their "suffering" as fruit of their laborers. They like the flattery of being "makers v. takers," and even being junior members of the country club, but not back room elitists, is "success" compared to being part of the 99 at heart.

A lot of people have been taught this religion at any of our nation's many Schools of Business where "economics" has long ago vanished as an academic discipline and become a technique within an ideological narrative of "business managers and owners against the overhead costs of labor." The idea that paying decent wages and manufacturing in America would contribute to a healthy Middle Class society was not attractive to these greedy little souls. I know, I was chaplain at Stanford Biz Chapel for a couple of years. I saw the last of Corporate Responsibility as an agenda item as Supply Side took off on its disaster course.

I do not consider taxes invested in the support and opportunity of my fellow citizens to be "wasted." I think bureacracies can be problems in public or private institutions. I think dogma can make some ideas about how to do education, healthcare, transportation, communication need change; but I don't see why democracy is banned from these areas so private agents can exploit them. Much easier to reform government than to dislodge established money in Commerce when they establish their "entitlements." Markets are not any answer to organized money. They just crush the competition. Who stops them? Not consumers. Not better gangsters.

If you are claiming that the government spends money efficiently then you are in an extreme minority. Very few people deny that the govenment is a money wasting monster on steroids. I could probably research and find 1000 useless programs that the government is blowing money on. If we can't cut spending big time, we will collapse. There is not enough of other people's money to pay the bills. We run up about $100,000 of debt per second. And I do blame the rich. The rich lawyers in the house and senate living off the government tit. The numbers don't lie

I'm not saying that we should not raise taxes. But what is the downside to making the feds prove they will spend it wisely? We tried the tax first method before, and the feds let us down. Again, what is the downside to forcing them to live up to their end of the bargain first?

You know I could find about a million useless pieces of crap that the private sector makes but no one sniffs at that at all. The consevative answer to that is, "well the market makes what people want and who are we to judge what the usefulness of it is... yada yada yada." But then when its a government program, everyone is a fucking expert one what should and shouldn't be done and what programs are a waste for other people and all this crap.

What might seem like waste to you rigel, might be a job or an essential service for someone else.

ah2
Joined:
Dec. 13, 2010 10:00 pm
Quote ah2:
Quote rigel1:
Quote DRC:

While I await an answer to the question instead of another assertion of non-fact or spin, first I will admit that "boobette" is disrespectful, but earned by the "newsmodels" on FAUX. It is they who dress inappropriately for a journalist and whose "sexiness" is sold as part of the Ideological Fix. I am not turned on by women who dress to male fantasies or what our cultural image is supposed to be. Like the beer ads, these bimbos are only smarter than the guys who fall over in lust or are just dumber beerheads.

As to the idea that both the rich and the poor despise having the fruits of their labor wasted, it is a lot more complex than that. Many of the uber-rich make money off the "government waste" and are behind the lobbying (bribing) of our selected representatives. Then there is what is considered "waste." Apparently, taking care of people, having affordable housing, healthcare, free education and great infrastructure is "waste" in the eyes of cons. They have been able to excuse wars and privateer corruption without deserting the GOPimps. If it were Ron Paul in a landslide, I would at least concede principled opposition. When they stop voting for Republicans, I will agree with you about "waste."

Investment is not waste because it pays for itself in created wealth. Those who 'invested' in Empire and Wall St.'s Casino economy and made out as real bandits, not "like them," are the rich.

At the high end of the 99 are a lot of people who think they are of the "elite" but who do not share their special ways of getting filthy or "vulture" rich. Some of them pay high taxes while others have some of the grift. For cultural and "religious" reasons, they tend to blame the poor and dependent for their "suffering" as fruit of their laborers. They like the flattery of being "makers v. takers," and even being junior members of the country club, but not back room elitists, is "success" compared to being part of the 99 at heart.

A lot of people have been taught this religion at any of our nation's many Schools of Business where "economics" has long ago vanished as an academic discipline and become a technique within an ideological narrative of "business managers and owners against the overhead costs of labor." The idea that paying decent wages and manufacturing in America would contribute to a healthy Middle Class society was not attractive to these greedy little souls. I know, I was chaplain at Stanford Biz Chapel for a couple of years. I saw the last of Corporate Responsibility as an agenda item as Supply Side took off on its disaster course.

I do not consider taxes invested in the support and opportunity of my fellow citizens to be "wasted." I think bureacracies can be problems in public or private institutions. I think dogma can make some ideas about how to do education, healthcare, transportation, communication need change; but I don't see why democracy is banned from these areas so private agents can exploit them. Much easier to reform government than to dislodge established money in Commerce when they establish their "entitlements." Markets are not any answer to organized money. They just crush the competition. Who stops them? Not consumers. Not better gangsters.

If you are claiming that the government spends money efficiently then you are in an extreme minority. Very few people deny that the govenment is a money wasting monster on steroids. I could probably research and find 1000 useless programs that the government is blowing money on. If we can't cut spending big time, we will collapse. There is not enough of other people's money to pay the bills. We run up about $100,000 of debt per second. And I do blame the rich. The rich lawyers in the house and senate living off the government tit. The numbers don't lie

I'm not saying that we should not raise taxes. But what is the downside to making the feds prove they will spend it wisely? We tried the tax first method before, and the feds let us down. Again, what is the downside to forcing them to live up to their end of the bargain first?

You know I could find about a million useless pieces of crap that the private sector makes but no one sniffs at that at all.

I couldn't care less what the private sector does with their money. They can blow it all on strippers as far as I'm concerned. It's THEIR money. The government on the other hand takes my money by force. If I do not pay, I will go to prison. I have no problem with that because Our infrastructure must be paid for. But the feds have gone berzerk with spending. Their greed is obscene. When they respect the fruits of my labor, I will respect them,

rigel1's picture
rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 7:49 am
They can blow it all on strippers as far as I'm concerned.

Blowing it on strippers is good. That feeds the economy. Putting it in the stock market just sequesters it in a place where nobody else gets to use it.

I'm happy sending some of my money to the Government knowing that, in an economy that is working properly, I'm going to get it back, plus a little bit more. What I don't like is sending it to the big-time rich, selfish, greedy guys knowing that I'll never see it again unless the Government taxes a reasonable amount away and sends it back through the economy.

Art's picture
Art
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Art:
They can blow it all on strippers as far as I'm concerned.

What I don't like is sending it to the big-time rich, selfish, greedy guys knowing that I'll never see it again unless the Government taxes a reasonable amount away and sends it back through the economy.

Two questions:

1) Who gets to decide who the "big-time rich, selfish, greedy guys" are? Does being better at earning money make one greedier? I don't think so. There are a lot of greedy poor people who will break into their neighbors house and steal what little they have. Near where I live, a lady got evicted from her house for not paying her rent. It's was raining and all of her stuff was on the curb, in the rain. She stood there and watched as a greedy group of goons stole what little she had from the curb. She was left standing in the rain with nothing. Does greed get any worse than that?

2) Both parties including the President claim that we spend way too much. Why not make them cut spending before we raise taxes. What is the downside to making them do their jobs before we throw more money at them?

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rigel1
Joined:
Jan. 31, 2011 7:49 am

:-)This thread reminds me of my days in Jr. High School, where the boys ("young men") would tell nasty jokes to each other, which I must admit I did some too. I am glad that I am not in Jr. High anymore.:-)

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