Anybody here been followin' the "Fast and Furious" Sitiation? What Cha all think? Bull*hit? All ya' anti-gunner's on booord?
Gun's is baaaaaad....bad...bad,,,bad! Dey kill's people! All's us stupid people...da, what's a gun? Daahhh...which way das is point? We all stupid people that think a gun is an extension of our penis!! That's what Thom thinks!!! In his pschco-freaudian analisis!!! In his opinion, any guy that likes a gun has an pscho-semantic attachment to his mother and has a small penis!!
GIVE ME AN F'N BREAK!!! Dudes, get a grip on reality, really!!! You freaks think that anybody that believes in the value of a gun is Psycho!
When the Pshyco goes to shoot or bludgeon or stangle you or your loved ones, perhaps you'd like to offer them a cup o' tea! But not you guys. That would never happen to you. Only the other person. And if so, oh well. Too bad for you. Not me, so I don't care! Can't ever happen to me. I'll bring you flowers!! SO SELF CENTERED!!!! HYPOCRITS!!! Happen to you; different story. And, so is the histoy of the progressive/liberal agenda. No balls! No care for other's; only thyself!!!
Comments
Yes, I have been following "fast and furious", and the question I have is are you calling for the Feds to enforce the gun laws more aggressively, or what new gun laws do you want that will prevent people from having access to guns?
TChamp:
Welcome back! We have some unfinished business:
http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2011/10/2nd-amendment-naivity
My post #27 in your 2nd Amendment thread refers to senseless harm caused by guns as illustrated by articles in the Chicago Tribune. Since then, I've seen on average 2 or 3 stories per day in the Trib alone about senseless harm from guns and not one article in the Trib about guns protecting people from harm. Perhaps I missed one of those stories. Please fill me in, I'd like to keep a fair tally on those results.
If you wouldn't mind TChamp, could you please post a copy of the 2nd Amendment in your next thread. I think it would be a nice reference for us.
yes, i've been following
I am an advocate for the 2nd amendment. I believe that a gun is not an evil entity; it is merely a tool; a piece of engineered metal. The person that uses it can be bad or good. And, the gun can be used for good as well as evil; it just depends on whose hands it is in. I do not believe that getting rid of guns would diminish violence or evil in the world. I believe that if there were no guns, criminals would use other tools of violence such as knives, numchucks...etc...
I think the big oversight by progressives is that they don't see how guns protect and save innocent life. I think that if they could see that this is very real, and that there is a great value in this that they would see guns in a different light.
A gun is a powerful tool in the hands of an individual...but not absolute (it is not magical). But, it does give power to a person to do good or bad with it. Bad is obvious. Good is to prevent badness, and protect innocent life. To ignore the defense of innocent life is no different than to claim it! Let me re-iterate this in different words; To stand by and let innocent life be taken falls under the category of "errory by omission". It's equivicable to involuntary manslaughter. In other words, to stand by and do nothing while mayhem occurs around you, simply because you are not in harms way does not remove you from accountability. It's kind of like standing by and whitnessing a crime, yet not saying or doing anything. You are there, and you have a choice to make.
Most people only see the negative reports of gun violence. This is because this is what the news reports. Why? because this is what makes a story. Let's face it, journalists want their name under a column on a good story. Using a gun for self defense does not make a good story. So, there is media bias in gun violence. There are many, many stories of guns being used to protect people, and many, many more not reported. This is the reality of guns. And, today more than 50% of US households have guns in the U.S. Do you know how many millions of guns that is? Do you know what percentage of gun violence and accidents are part of this?....probably thousandts or tens of thousandths of a percent. So, for all those progessives that are sooooo into statistics as Thomm is, look at the numbers on this.
Another thing is, I bet that many people that are sooooo against guns have never even been to the range and fired a gun. I would encourage all of those people to do so. Get the fear out of it. It is a tool like any other tool. It does not have a mind of its own. Let's deal with the real issue of gun violence in our society today................simply VIOLENCE!
Labor,
Take a look at my last post. I believe that the reason you see so many reports in the Trib. about gun crime and not crime prevention with guns is due to media bias. Chicago/Illinois is that last bastion of resistance in the union to recognise gun rights. Today, Chicago/Illinois has been rated as the most politically corrupt state in the union. And, I know for a fact that the statistics of gun violence is skewed in Chicago. I know because I shoot with Chicago cops, and they tell me first hand all about it. Surprisingly, they are are for gun rights for citizens. Imagine that! Why?
Well, cops are our first line of defense. They are out there on the streets, and they see and know what's going on. And, apparently they see a value in private citizens owning guns and having the ability to use them should the situation require it. That should say something there.
As far as a direct quote of the second amendment, here it is.
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
I am a progressive. I am a liberal. Having said that I believe in human rights. One of those rights is the right to protect myself and others with whatever it takes to be on par with the "bad guys". I do not want to be forced by law to protect my family against gun toting criminals with a knife. If we were to take away all the known weapons of today I would not be for outlawing rocks.
It's not so much the idea of everyone carrying a gun as it is the idea that everyone "might" be carrying a gun that keeps many would be criminals in check. Just knowing that anyone on your block might have a gun under his mattress does more to make criminals hesitate than knowing your neighborhood is full of law abiding citizens who "can't" have a gun.
Anyway that's my opinion on the whole gun rights issue. Hopefully I haven't pissed off too many of my brothers.
I am a progressive. I am a liberal..........Hopefully I haven't pissed off too many of my brothers.
Bush-Wacker: As if there is such a thing as fundamentalist progressives. You have a sound and principled opinion. Embrace it. Does Thom, Hedges or Chomsky lay claim to some fundamentalist liberal textbook that must be adhered to? Don't put too much stock in what others think. You should not be questioning your alternate opinion from a perceived status quo of the established Left. There is no such thing. Progress cannot happen without differences of opinion. As they say, "opinions are like assholes", everybody has one. Which reminds me, T-Champ is still an asshole.
T-Champ: Aside from my personal opinion about you, thank you for posting the 2nd Amendment. My point in that request was to illustrate the fact that the 2nd Amendment is one sentence and not two. Complete separation of the "militia" from the people's "right to bear arms" would require two sentences separated by a period. Why wasn't it written that way?
I'm curious how much distance is between Bush-Wacker and T-Champ on the specifics of gun ownership to protect our human rights. How many bullets should a legal gun be allowed to fire within a given amount of time? Should deep should somebody's background check go? What about the human rights of people who choose to not own guns?
LOL, you are a good man Labor. I believe in very strict gun control and that it needs to be very "discriminational". Is that a word? Anyway, I don't see why people cry so much over heavy regulations and background checks on gun ownership. I have to jump through more hoops to get a drivers licence than I do to buy a gun. I have a hunting rifle that I haven't used in about 10 years, other than that I don't own any pistols or anything else. I choose not to but hope that most people don't know that. I would rather they think I did in the same way that I'd rather they think I might be a black belt in Kung Fu. Neither is true but what the heck?
Bush_Wacker,
Boy, just when I thought I had a progressive guy that agreed with what I was saying, you went and chummed up with that asshole Labor! You and him are the same. Don't understand why you posted on supporting private gun ownership as a means of self defense, because it appears you really don't believe in that.
Labor, I'm done being nice to you. You are a fucking asshole, and an idot on top! You are the epitomy of a naive littly boy, who claims moral high ground and as such has contempt for all that don't play by his rules, and his alone. You are the kind of guy that as soon as he gets in trouble looks for other to bail his sorry ass out; the very same people that he dissed before.
As you once told me before, "go fuck yourself"!
This is a wedge issue that doesn't do much but hurt Democrats at the polls. People have fears and for many (especially in the countryside) guns give them a feeling a security regardless of their actual role/use/outcome. At least where I live the general threat of "gun control" strikes right at the heart of your average middle aged white man with a high school education. On an emotional scale it seems similar to religious people's fear of "baby killers" and their fight against abortion.
I am making this up as I go, please don't call me names:
masculine/testosterone fear of protecting family = gun control fear and
feminine/estrogen fear of losing offspring = abortion fear
As a means toward bringing more of these white men in the countryside to the democratic/progressive party I propose replacing the drive for increased gun control with gun violence laws that are scarier than the gun itself. Let them have their guns but if someone so much as brandishes one to threaten another they can expect a long, long time in jail.
Most people only see the negative reports of gun violence. This is because this is what the news reports. ...
"if it bleeds, it leads." No way of getting around that as it plays right into our fear circuitry. Well, perhaps having more independent non-profit progressive media outlets would help.
Kirk,
I agree with you that the progessive attacks on gun owners alienate many would be progressives. I don't necessarily agree with you on the freudian pscychogy you proposed, but that's o.k.
I say we simply enforce the laws on the books now for violent crime, regarless of the weapon. Why make punishement for gun crimes more harsh than any other? Knives and crowbars can be just as lethal. In the end, dead is dead.