A couple of weeks ago, Thom defined Fascism. It was concise and quite good. I since have had difficulty finding it. Would it be possible to get that definition? It was only a couple of sentences long. "Googling" and "asking" have only turned up long discourses from 2009. Thanks
"Renaissance Thinking About the Issues of Our Day"
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I did not hear Thom's definition, and I am looking forward to reading it here.
In the mean time the Wikipedia definition seems to be updated from what I read there a few years ago.
The word comes from Mussolini's image of sticks tied together. It is about the marriage of Commerce and the State, a new Establishment of religion and politics partnering the State and Mammon. The point is that workers are the believers, not the rulers or participants in power. A lot of American industrialists were charmed by the idea, and still are.
Identifying an "enemy within" is more a sympton of this toxic relationship than the source of it. The Holocaust was not what fascism was about, but heresy trials and pogroms are typical of what happens when the Cult of Power is established anytime, anywhere.
Conservatives who try to equate fascism with socialism do not take words seriously. They might have reason for concern were they able to appreciate the separation of Commerce and the State while remembering that it is the role of the State to keep Commerce civil and socially responsible. Owning the Commons is democracy, not socialism.
300 million meanings
for every single word
you better re-examine
every one you've heard
Mussolini wanted to abolish the elected parliament, and appoint representatives from segments of the major industries to take its place.
We've learned we don't have to do that. Each major industry operates through their lobbyists. They write the laws....Congress rubber stamps them. The bonanza of Medicaid D was written by the pharmaceutical indsustry. The $500 billion health ins. co. bonanza of Obamacare was written by the health ins. industry.
The illusion of democracy works much better than abolishing it outright. As Prof. Sheldon Wolin, (Princeton Univ.) wrote in his work, Democracy, Inc. - The Spector of Inverted Totalitarianism, "They rule without appearing to".
Democratic Fascism is an American invention. Fascism with the illusion of democracy..
We heartily endorse it every election day. As long as we keep doing that, there will be no overt, wide-spread repression...no concentration camps. Dissidents will be allowed as long as they are ineffective.. However....., just in case.......Congress wisely passed the Patriot Act and the Pres. has taken upon himself (or to those whom he may designate).....the authority to assassinate any American citizen without trial or charges..
Even an attempt to impeach a Pres. may become dangerous to someone's health in today's empire..
Some say the Assassinator-In-Chief has to tow the line and can't govern as he truely wishes to. LOL
If I disappear from these threads, look for the smoking gun in the President's desk.
Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"
In principle you have a big point. In "person," as they say down Texas way, "some people just need a killin.'" I don't weep much for the targets while I agree that we don't want the principle established for less selective Presidents. We rarely get good emperors.
Try http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0719-15.htm
Generally, the word has lost it's meaning. Now it's simply an empty insult that political rivals hurl at each other.
The word has lost its meaning only to those who prefer to stay in denial.
Granted—that's a safer place to be.
I can go with Corporatism as an objective description of the attack on democracy. It is still an ugly form of tyranny. If the Right did not equate "free markets" and "getting government out of the way of business" with freedom and democracy, neither corporatism nor fascism would be meaningful insults. Exposing this rhetoric and the structures of empire matters. What the Right complains about is what they created and supported when a democrat was not in the White House.
The word has lost its meaning only to those who prefer to stay in denial.
Granted—that's a safer place to be.
Or those who see the boogey man around every corner and need a goofy name to call him.
What is the correct term for Santorum? What describes Romney's advocacy of Corporate? What form of insult is appropriate for the Bone or Tortoise Mitch McConnell? How could anything negative said about Cheney be hyperbole?
Wow! Absolutely—and this empire is not just in "the USA". It is worldwide. Look at what is happening in Europe.
I see it as though we have been finally infiltrated and neeeeearly overwhelmed by everybody who acts & speaks like William F. Buckley did.
Did you see Thom's "Big Picture" last week, when he replayed two interviews? I can't remember the name of the professor who had written a book on Conservatives, but as I was listening to that discussion, I was mesmorized. They are trying to "keep things" in a heirarchical system and not changing for the riff-raff.
Empire is world-wide. In America, it has just been sanitzed up to this moment (Poly's American Fascism), so it won't be visible until it doesn't matter what we, the annoyingly over-educated population, think. Its now allowed for us to be disposed of.
rigel wrote:
Or those who see the boogey man around every corner and need a goofy name to call him.
poly replies: The illusion of democracy works much better than abolishing it outright. As Prof. Sheldon Wolin, (Princeton Univ.) wrote in his work, Democracy, Inc. - The Spector of Inverted Totalitarianism, "They rule without appearing to".
Probably Prof. Wolin's term is adequate to the task. Inverted Totalitarianism. We legitimize it every election day.
Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease
Ya right - except I wasn't looking for a dictionary definition of the word, I was asking specifically for Thom's definition. It went something like - a coming together of business and government to accomplish each other's mutual aims with a dose of extreme Nationalism thrown in. That's not it - but that's the crux of it. Would like the exact quote. He gave it several times on the radio show I was listening to and it was the same every time, so must be a sort of mantra. It was very good, very concise - not an "explanation."
How about the Wall Street and IMF mantra—the running of a nation by representatives of international finance, making money the focus of its economy and necessitating police action to keep people under control when looting of the population to pay national debt makes their lives impossible.
Democratic Facism. Nice term.
The point is the illusion of democracy, and haven't we heard that for a long time in the propaganda?
Not bad - that's the concept I was looking for, but it needs that heavy dose of "Nationalism" included. What we're seeing is the confusion of Democracy with Capitalism - and you're a dirty Commie if you don't go along with the current thinking that making money is the definition of Democracy. Democracy is political and Capitalism is economic. Thom (and it may have been one of his "subs" for the day) said that the problem is that if you refer to someone as being a Fascist, what people hear is Nazi and that they aren't necessarily the same - again, Fascism is economic, and Nazism is political.
Fascism is both because it binds the State and the Corporations into an Establishment. Your point is correct with regard to economic theory v. politics, but there cannot be a democratic fascism. There can be a democratic socialism or capitalism. Not sure about a democratic communism, but fascism is definitely authoritarian, as are corporations where owners rule and authority comes down from above.
The difference between "fascism" and imperialism is that the financial empire generates the various forms that protection of the empire's monetary system has taken throughout history.
Fascism itself is only one name of the enforcement of the monetary system, specific to that moment in history when Mussolini was in power in Italy and named his new government policy "fascism".
Hitler was the Nazi, National Socialist, but it was the same thing. His Finance Minister, Hjalmar Schacht, was born into a family who had spent much time in the USA and went to Germany as an enforcer of austerity to keep the money system from collapsing, but really it was to prevent the Wall Street and London banks from losing a fortune consequently.
Just like in Greece now, where the Troika is demanding that the Greeks change their Constitution to say that the debt to the banks gets paid first, before any social spending.
Same shit, different day.
The Greeks are lucky. they live in warm climate.
A professor friend of mine taught and lived in the Ukraine about 10 years ago. Days of below zero weather are common. Natural gas to heat homes was available 2 hours a day. An hour in the morning, and an hour in the evening. A glass of water left on the kitchen table in the morning was frozen by noon..
The staple diet was cabbage and potatoes in winter. Not much else. Deaths from malnutrition-induced illnesses.was pretty common in winter..My friend's diet (that included meat once a week) was a rich man's diet by Ukrainian standards..His income was supplemented by money from the U.S and he was able to shop in stores that accepted only foreign currency..
Shops dealing in Ukrainian currency couldn't stock up from abroad. Shops accepting dollars could. Ukraine, producing little, had a currency that was worth little..
The Ukraine's elite, of course, weren't effected by that, They exchanged Ukranian money for dollars. Special exemptions.
.Elites aren't effected like everyone else. .That holds true for Greek elites, or Ukrainian.e elites.
Even U.S. elites will do jsut fine after a merging or economic, resource and environmental collapse.
Join the top 1% quickly, and you'll do just fine.
Sacrifices in living standards aren't meant for everyone. Sacrifices by the many to further enrich the few is a part of the game. Bankster bonuses should be bigger than ever..I wonder if the Greeks will get a thank you note.
Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"
Language is a virus, as Laurie Anderson said.
We don't need God's wrath at Babel anymore.
We speak the same language and use the same words, but no one knows what the words mean anymore. We've effectively doublespoke ourselves into the obscene.
The fascists I grew up with, Stuart Hedden (CIA) and Tommy the Cork, are laughing from the grave.
These were real fascists, old boys.
Today's wolves don't even have to disguise themselves as sheep. Most of us wouldn't know a wolf if we saw one.
With regard to this discussion, particularly the remarks about "democratic fascism", coincidentally I had just happened upon this video interview of Naomi Klein. It is relevant to another post on the message board but it certainly seems apropos here as well.
http://greekleftreview.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/naomi-kleins-interview-about-papademos-government/
What is the correct term for Santorum?
Why do you need a "term"? I don't feel the need to label anyone. If I disagree with a policy, I will make my arguement. I vote for someone whom is closer to my beliefs. I don't waste my time trying to figure out how to label somebody. Why bother? These days calling someone a fascist is like saying "You're ugly and your mama's fat." It's just about as effective and maybe a little more childish.
The closest thing to real fascisim is what we have in the ruthless Isamic regimes of Iran and Syria.
Now, who is seeing the boogey man where you are told to look for him?
It is silly to listen to the main stream media working for the financial empire, because their agenda is — they want you dead. The Islamic regimes are the place where they have been doing the "divide" in their great game of "DIVIDE AND CONQUER" since they can no longer divide & conquer us with communist Russia, who went democratic.
BTW, the goal of the game is that they watch as we, the divided, kill each other ! Fun, huh?
But the real plan is not just Libya or Syria or Iran (or Vietnam or Cuba) this time around. The financial empire knows that their Trans-Atlantic monetary system is in the process of collapse, and they want to get nuclear weapons into their video war game to level the playing field ASAP — because the real targets are the BRIC nations, and particularly Russia. What fun they will have when FINALLY Russia & the US nuke each other into extinction!!!
After that ... it won't matter that they no longer have the fortunes created over centuries of predatory banking in Europe and the US and those ignorant third-world nations! The heirs of power of the long living financial empire will still be there, to start those monetary systems going again in whatever is left on the planet ! AND — there will be NO annoyingly successful, thriving nations, whose economies are focused on their successful & thriving citizens — threatening the financial empire heirs' predatory needs.
So all will be safe and secure!
And you'll be dead.
If you want to understand how toxic the legacy of the Cheney and his PNAC cultists has been, I refer you to the current issues of Iran and Syria and his rejection of the opening made by Iran after 9/11. Taking out Saddam strengthened all the wrong elements in Iran and made it impossible to move Syria and Hezzbollah toward moderation instead of more radical militance. It has not helped Lebanon, has kept Israel burdened as an occupying tyrant and confrontationalist and also kept us on the Saudi petrotit. Did I mention repeating the mistake of Alexander the not so Great? You would think he could have gotten one thing right.
Sorry you don't enjoy the Santorum jokes, but he asks for it. The biggest mistakes all these 'candidates' make is opening their mouths and speaking. I could never imagine nor create these characters, much less write their lines. I have no respect for Santorum as he insults me and many other Americans with a sanctimony and ignorance that is making Newt look civil. Were he not attracting his fringe cult followers, it would not matter. But he is taken seriously and not sent to his room with his mouth washed out with soap. Who are these people? How is anyone supposed to live at peace with them? So we will ridicule him and kick him in the nuts when possible.
If I lived in Iran, not only would I have to concede that my country was surrounded by a big, imperial army that has engaged in criminal activities, I would have to admit that Americans have people who could be elected President who are ready to drop the bomb on me. I might hate my own Rightwing nutjobs in power, but it would be impossible to deny the rest of the picture. I think we have to own the responsibility for what America has done, is doing and promises to do before we talk about who is the really evil player here.
The Assad regime is writing its own death warrant, but it is killing a lot of people on the way. So are we.
Now, who is seeing the boogey man where you are told to look for him?
I'll give you a pass on this one Karolina. Maybe you have not read enough of my posts to understand where I am coming from. Anyone who has, knows that my thoughts are my own. I make up my mind based on what I see not what I am told. My posts reflect this.
This includes Iran and Syria. Have you seen what is going on in Syria? They are shooting down anyone who demands freedom. Remember that picture of the young woman in Iran who was shot down and bleeding in the streets simply because she wanted to be free? That is where my opinion comes from.
Do you know who shot that woman or those who demand freedom? Because no one else knows.
"In Syria, where the death toll is already above 6,000 by most estimates, there is no equivalent NATO operation; so far, a limited intervention to spur a coup or create a "safe zone" for Syrian civilians near the Turkish border is all still talk. So at first glance, providing arms looks like the next-best option. But the worry is that what started as a protest movement has morphed into what Steven Heydemann, a Syria expert at the United States Institute of Peace, described as "a dangerous and uncoordinated array of armed opposition fighters." While there is an entity called the Free Syrian Army - not to be confused with the civilian Syrian National Council - it is less an army than bands of free-form militias. Some are tribal; some are linked by regional or ethnic bonds; there is no real command structure."
And this is just like what happened in our own Occupy movements — violence brought in from without to manipulate the situation.
Do you know who shot that woman or those who demand freedom? Because no one else knows.
"In Syria, where the death toll is already above 6,000 by most estimates, there is no equivalent NATO operation; so far, a limited intervention to spur a coup or create a "safe zone" for Syrian civilians near the Turkish border is all still talk. So at first glance, providing arms looks like the next-best option. But the worry is that what started as a protest movement has morphed into what Steven Heydemann, a Syria expert at the United States Institute of Peace, described as "a dangerous and uncoordinated array of armed opposition fighters." While there is an entity called the Free Syrian Army - not to be confused with the civilian Syrian National Council - it is less an army than bands of free-form militias. Some are tribal; some are linked by regional or ethnic bonds; there is no real command structure."
And this is just like what happened in our own Occupy movements — violence brought in from without to manipulate the situation.
You are right. We cannot prove who shot the girl in Iran. But all indications point to the regime. Regardless, she has become a symbol for the hundreds who have been murdered. And let's not forget the man they want to execute for the "crime" of being Christain.
As you have stated, there is a lot of talk of arming the Syrian rebels. I'm not all that comfy with that. Some of them may not have pure motives themselves. But I would support NATO air support as they did in Libya. That may be enough.
I'm sorry Rigel, but as I see it, this is a time when even the global super-rich are desperate and trying to regain some sense of security. I see this as manipulation to start theromuclear war, because Russia & China are refusing to impose sanctions on Iran and Syria —and Russia and China are refusing to turn running of their economies over to these international oligarchs.
Hilary yesterday publicly stated that she can't see arming the Syrian opposition, because Al Qaeda is involved with this revolution.
Al Qaeda is still a very much alive apparatus, started in Afghanistan during the Bush Sr. war, brought back together for 9/11, and today for this.
I'm sorry Rigel, but as I see it, this is a time when even the global super-rich are desperate and trying to regain some sense of security. I see this as manipulation to start theromuclear war, because Russia & China are refusing to impose sanctions on Iran and Syria —and Russia and China are refusing to turn running of their economies over to these international oligarchs.
Hilary yesterday publicly stated that she can't see arming the Syrian opposition, because Al Qaeda is involved with this revolution.
Al Qaeda is still a very much alive apparatus, started in Afghanistan during the Bush Sr. war, brought back together for 9/11, and today for this.
No doubt this is a tricky situation. I'm sure Hillary has reason to be concerned. Any move we make could end up making things worse. We hate to see the bloodshed, but any choice may be a bad one. I'm glad that I don't have to decide. I just pray for peace and justice for the poor folks over there.
I'm sorry Rigel, but as I see it, this is a time when even the global super-rich are desperate and trying to regain some sense of security. I see this as manipulation to start theromuclear war, because Russia & China are refusing to impose sanctions on Iran and Syria —and Russia and China are refusing to turn running of their economies over to these international oligarchs.
Hilary yesterday publicly stated that she can't see arming the Syrian opposition, because Al Qaeda is involved with this revolution.
Al Qaeda is still a very much alive apparatus, started in Afghanistan during the Bush Sr. war, brought back together for 9/11, and today for this.
No doubt this is a tricky situation. I'm sure Hillary has reason to be concerned. Russia and China cannot be trusted. Any move we make could end up making things worse. We hate to see the bloodshed, but any choice may be a bad one. I'm glad that I don't have to decide. I just pray for peace and justice for the poor folks over there.
Thermonuclear. I meant thermonuclear war.
I guess even typing it gives me the creeps at this point.
The reasons Iran has people pushing for "da bomb" have our fingerprints all over them. If we want to pray for the poor people who are at the center of this crisis, we need to get our empire out of the way right now. Even 'helping them rebuild' involves paying off the people we want and screwing over others who live there. It is time to stop making their choices for them. Al Qaeda will die a natural death if we are not giving them the reason to live.
Hear, hear!
Can you send that to the Congress & the White House, under the title: To Whom It May Concern: No Matter What London or Wall Street Says That "We" Must Do In The Middle East, Tell Them To Go Frack Themselves, And Don't Do It.
But reliving the old movie scripts brings out the nostalgia cons.
I have no doubt, given the current course this country is taking, that the word will regain its original meaning in the near future.
And clearly, Russia and China feel exactly that way about the United States and Britain — as the USA & Britain are the nations that are in the big financial trouble, at the moment.
Everybody knows "If you ain't got nothin' you got nothin' to lose." A financially bankrupt empire can act as crazy as that dangerous array of penniless turban-wearing opposition fighters—except armed with nukes instead of sabers.
That is why we need to get our house back in order and join Russia and China as nations focused on science, technology, and progress—instead of threatening to wipe them out with T.N. war. That is a tremendous amount of pressure on everybody.
BTW, this article Asteroid 2011 AG5 May Pose Threat To Earth in 2040 is just the sort of thing that Russia has suggested we team up with them to create the technology to protect our planet together. China is also doing work in space technology aggressively.
The key here is, failed democratic representative republic turned corporate fascist oilgarchy. the chance of changing the current course is virtually non existant barring some major societal event
Like a total collapse of the financial system? Because that's on its way, IMO.
Better the financial system than the society or the earth.
Amen to that, DRC !
If the financial system falls apart, it might well become an opportunity to be rebuilt the right way!
I believe the definition you are referring to is one which Thom cited from an edition of the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, I'm not sure. It's either an exact quote or is based upon and very similar to the following: "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. It is a historical fact that this is the definition of fascism. If, as is claimed in the Wikipedia (diligently attended to as Thom has described) article "Definitions of fascism", that "if the definition is restricted to the original Italian Fascism, then 'fascism' has little significance outside of Italian politics" then "fascism" has little significance outside of Italian politics. (Ostensively, that of the early 20th Century.) The writer of this Wikipedia entry would have us believe that this condition is in fact "clearly" the case, so clearly that no justification for this assertion is needed. However, there is one other facet of fascism which does conscribe the application of the term to a particular time period, and that is the association of nationalism and the right-wing rejection of pacifism and liberalism and total embrace of the state and thus at odds with liberalism, socialism, or anarchism. This apparently being too confusing for the Wikipedia authors who have perhaps been beffudled by the scholars who contend over the applicability of the term, you may wish to review this abridged encyclopedia entry defining fascism written by Mussolini and Gentile or perhaps by Gentile alone although Mussolini is credited with it. Fortunately here at least you won't find the rather astonishing assertion that " 'fascism' referred to a political movement that was linked with Sindicalist-Corporativism that existed in a single country (Italy) for less than 30 years and ruled the country from 1922 to 1943 under the leadership of Benito Mussolini." (aforementioned Wikipedia article) It seems no one has gotten around to creating a Wikipedia page for "Sindicalist (oops- that's syndicalist)- Corporativism" yet.
The Syndicalists wanted to "tie together" the parts instead of having a pluralism. The basic point is that we use fascism to imply nazis and corporatism is closer to the truth. It is all some alternative to democracy where participation in power means pluralist interaction rather than unified "belonging."
Freedom from government 'control' is not the same as participation in power although nobody is arguing for control. The libs think escaping government is freedom, but it is just being out of it. To govern ourselves, we have to participate in power together. It is not the same as joining the cult.
Nothing, IMO, is out of the realm of possibilty, one needs only look at what has transpired since 9/11. "They" have this country buttoned down tight and we are getting more stringent government control and unchecked overreach by the minute. Land of the free, Ha!
That is why we need to get our house back in order and join Russia and China as nations focused on science, technology, and progress—instead of threatening to wipe them out with T.N. war. That is a tremendous amount of pressure on everybody.
Russia and China as shining examples? Interesting. News flash: Virtually all of the scientific, medical and technological advancements come from the U.S. Not because we are smarter, but because we are free-er. Their governments cannot create what our enterprise can. The Chinese steal most of their technology from us. Do you think that China and Russia should "join" us on anything? How about freedom and human rights? We ain't perfect, but we are a heluva lot better than your dream countries. You are free to post and say what you like, when you like it and you will not disappear. Not so in China.
When was the last time that we threatened to wipe them out? Please insert link below.
Once upon a time in America, we invested in education and paid teachers instead of screaming about the deficits while refusing to tax the rich. It worked very well. Now, we give money to warmongers and corporate raiders while starving the schools and not funding basic scientific research. See how well this is doing?
Once upon a time in America, we invested in education and paid teachers instead of screaming about the deficits while refusing to tax the rich. It worked very well. Now, we give money to warmongers and corporate raiders while starving the schools and not funding basic scientific research. See how well this is doing?
Newsflash 2.
Your "once upon a time" ain't a rosey as you recall. Teacher salary, benefits and retirement has never been better than it is now. Think about that before you start screaming "poor teacher."
Once upon a time in America, we invested in education and paid teachers instead of screaming about the deficits while refusing to tax the rich. It worked very well. Now, we give money to warmongers and corporate raiders while starving the schools and not funding basic scientific research. See how well this is doing?
Newsflash 2.
Your "once upon a time" ain't a rosey as you recall. Teacher salary, benefits and retirement has never been better than it is now. Think about that before you start screaming "poor teacher."
Really, around AZ teachers have been taking pay cuts, one school district in PA can't afford to pay their teachers at all, and nationally the conservatives' starve the beast program has lead to massive layoffs of teachers.
Rigel you are wrong, or you are lying.
Once upon a time in America, we invested in education and paid teachers instead of screaming about the deficits while refusing to tax the rich. It worked very well. Now, we give money to warmongers and corporate raiders while starving the schools and not funding basic scientific research. See how well this is doing?
Newsflash 2.
Your "once upon a time" ain't a rosey as you recall. Teacher salary, benefits and retirement has never been better than it is now. Think about that before you start screaming "poor teacher."
Really, around AZ teachers have been taking pay cuts, one school district in PA can't afford to pay their teachers at all, and nationally the conservatives' starve the beast program has lead to massive layoffs of teachers.
Rigel you are wrong, or you are lying.
So has everbody else. But they still do pretty well. The unfortunate part is that the teachers union eats its young. When times get tough and money is short who gets laid off? Is it the least productive, least enthusiastic teacher. Nope. It's the youngest. You can have a tired, bored non motivated teacher who you are stuck with. He knows he is protected because he has been teaching for thirty years. He could afford to retire, but he would rather let some young, exciting highly, affective teacher get the axe instead. So she ends up working a Applebees and he still comes in and goes through the motions. Untouchable. This happens a lot. The teachers union doesn't care about education.
I stand by my statement. A teacher fresh out of college makes a better than average wage. And they work a shorter day, have summers off and several weeks off during the school year. The teachers in my area make a good wage, but have not had a raise in three years. But neither have I.
I'm guessing if you were discussing teacher pay around the lunch table with co-workers you would be a little more careful calling people a liar. But its really, really easy when you are hiding behind the internet. Right?