GOD!!!!!

I just find that there are some progressives that have a lot of contempt for "GOD".  I am not an evangelical zealot, otherwise I would not be a big fan of Thomm.  I consider myself a conservative progressive.  I love the progressive movement, as I feel it is for and of the people;  a democratic cause;  a human rights cause;  a way to better the lives of the common man and in doing so better the state of the world.  I love it.  Does this motive come from GOD?  I believe so.  Where I make my departure is from that portion of progressives that actually really, really hate GOD, an anyone that believes in GOD (mostly atheists).  I find that so disrespectful.  I don't shove GOD down anybodys thoat!  Perhaps that is an evangelical thing.  But as a Catholic, quite frankly I do not feel the need to ram anything down anybody's thoat.  People have the right to believe in whatever they want, so long as is doesn't harm others.  I have a lot of faith in GOD and believe it is an underlying motive behind all good works.  But I would never, NEVER force my views on anyone that is not interested. 

There is a big misunderstanding of Christianity.  I believe it's because there are soooo many groups out there that claim to be Christians, when they really aren't.  As I said before, I am a Catholic, and many of these so called Christian's are quite different from Roman Catholic doctrine.  I really wish I could pass on the word of GOD through contemporary catholic (vatican II) beliefs.  I think many people would be really surprised at what they find.  But, they don't look beyond what they want to see.  And, they don't see that much of what our society is today is a reflection of these beliefs.  And that I find very ignorant and reprehensible! 

You know, there is a balance between conservativism and progressivisim.  Somewhere inbetween lies the TRUTH.  To get too far one way or the other is a perversion of the TRUTH.  GOD is the TRUTH in my opinion, and is the source of all good things. 

 Let's keep up the good work.  Let's pray to GOD that we can suceed in advansing the cause of human rights against the tyranny and  oppression of the ever increasing state of Fascism in the United States.  Let's restore this country to "....one nation, under GOD, whith liberty and Justice for all"!  

GOD help us, and be strong my brothers and sisters in Christ!  Together with GOD we can overcome this.  

Sincerley, God bless you all! 

Bush Wacker,

So great for you to respond.  I know I threw a lot out there.  And, I understand your suspicion of religion.  That is not a bad thing.  It is a dangerous world out there.  But, if someone is really strong in themselves, they should not be afraid to explore.  A cult will not draw you in and put you in a transe if you are a weak person, as I supect you are not. 

I am biased, because I am a Roman Catholic.  I believe that the Roman Catholic church is the one true church of christ, not out of ego, but through a study of the life of Christ.  I am fully aware of the sins that it has committed though the last two thousand years, as the pope John paul II has admitted.  The sins that it has committed with the crusades, the inquisition, the priests molesting children is reprehensible. And believe me, the members of the church are aware of this, and definelty do not like it.  But, we will fix it and restore it to where it should be.  It is not a one way street, where we all bow to the Pope, no questions asked.  The members of the church have an integral role in the church.  Without them there would be no church.  No intelligent spiritual person is going to follow things that don't make sense and are against our God given instincts. 

The reason I am a proponent for the church is because christ said that where more than one person prays to me, you will find me.  He said to peter, you are a rock.  On you I will build my church.

Jesus set up the original church of God.  This church is no more perfect than his diciples were.  Remember all the sins that his diciples commited.  Peter denied him three times,  Judas delivered him to the Romans and the pharisees, and Thomas doubted him upon his resurection from the dead.  And all of his diciples died very badly for believing in him; skinned alive, crucified upside down...etc.

For all those people that so distrust the Church, I really encourage them to take a deeper look.  Christians have been persecuted around the world, throughout the ages for their beliefs.  And yet, despite this, Gods word continues.  In fact, the more they are persecuted, the more followers are created.  We enjoy so many benefits here in the U.S., and in Europe due to Judeo/Christian values, much of which is taken for granted. 

So, by all means;  be suspicious of religion.  For as christ said..."there will be many false prophets" (and of course false religions).  "But, you will know me through my works". 

So I would say to you;  don't discredit all religions becasue they are are called religions.  I would encourage you to take a closer look at religion as part of a process of seeking the truth to mans existense.  You don't need to start with Catholicism. Take a look at all of them.  Weigh them out for yourself.  Seek the truth, and pray to God for it.  If there is a God, he will lead you in the right direction.  And, your life will be so very full with understanding and peace.

I get where you are at.  But, if you should ever want to come out of the wilderness of being on your own, and re-join others in your beliefs, I'm sure you will be welcome back.

Keep the faith.

Doug,

So what you're saying is that Christians are no better than Muslims?  They kill by the sword, but Christians kill more cleverly with lethal injection?  No difference!?

What is so very interesting regarding the Judeo-Christion model vs. the Islamic model is the level of tolerance for each other.  Muslims can come to this country an be free to practice there religion without persecution,  yet Christians go to their county and are beheaded for having a bible or crusifix with them!  Dude, you are so F***ing stupid!  Have you been out ouf this country!?  I have!  I am an engineer and have worked in Saudi Arabia, in a corporate US/Saudi compound!  Let me tell you, those people are RADICAL!!!!...exclamation point!!!   Alcohol....prison/death!  Pornography...same!   Speaking against Islam......apostopy and death!!!!   These people do not F**k around.  Don't even think to equate Islam with Christianity!!  

We should send all you f***ing people to various Islamic country's, and then check back with you in a year.  I think you all would have a different opinion about your values and allegiences.  You know, it is so easy to speak intellectually about respect for all and self criticism to bring all peoples together;  and I totally agree with this because as a Chrisitian this is what we believe in.  BUT,.....THEY DON'T!!!!  Let me make this very clear.....THEY DON'T!!!!   To them,  we are all infidels!!  THESE PEOPLE ARE F***ing  CRAZY!!!   Christians are passive little lambs compared to them. 

For all you people out there that agree with Doug,  I hope you all suffer the same death as our expatriots that have been kidnapped and beheaded....all those lovely Muslims that are sooooo respectul of life!   You people make me SICK!!!!  You just don't get it!!!  Christianity and Islam are worlds apart!  The only reason that Muslims here are peaceful is because they are operating in an atmosphere of tolerance created by Christians!  

For all those non-muslims that side with the Muslims and think Christians are different but the same, check out this link. 

http://bcove.me/07uefz8c

Labor, you don't know anything about Christianity.  Your opinion is based on perverted attitudes and actions of people that claim to be Christians,  but are far from it.  

Christian attitude did not cause 9/11.  Look back through history.  The nation of Islam has hated Christians from it's inception!  It was founded in about the 6th century by Mohamad, who claimed to be the last and highest prophet of God (Allah for them).  His parents died at an early age, and he traveled with his uncle on a caravan through Persia.  In his early life he learned of the concept of monotheism through various tribes through the trade routes.  Christianity had traveled to this area through word of mouth, but was not complete.  In other words, they had an incomplete account of the religion.  

Mohamad filled in the gaps on his own accord.  He married a woman that was thirty years his senior.  He had several kids with her.  Then, he holed up in a cave where he claimed to have had dreams/visions from God.  He went to Mecca, preached from the street corners from encouragement from his wife (Mother figure), and was chased out of the City upon fear of death.  He fled, formed an army of followers, and came back to wage war.  He won, and his religeon took root.  The Curan lacks continuity in terms of timeline's of events. 

To the Muslims, Jesus was just another prophet.  Mohamed claimed himself to be above Jesus, and the true elightened one of God. They believe that Jesus never really died on the cross;  that it just appeared that he did;  some sort of magical trick of Allah, and that it was possibly Judas in his place.

Christians believe that Jesus was the Son of God;  e.g. God and man.  The religion claims that Jesus performed miracles;  e.g.  healed the sick, and was raised from the dead.  If one believes this is true, then one could believe that Jesus was the messiah.  If one does not believe this to be true, then all other religions are equal choices.  In the end, I guess it comes down to what one chooses to believe.

There is no scientific proof for the existenc of God, Allah or anything else for that matter.  These are questions of faith.  But, what is faith?  What leads us to this, and how is it determined?  Is it a matter of conditioning?  Is it an individual quest?  Or, a bit of both?

Since one can't proove the existence of God, people have asked me "what makes you believe in God?"  The only answer I can give is that I have seen the proof for the existence of God through a personal relationship with God.  What this means is that I Pray, I get results.  If I don't get the result I pray for, I still get results.  They are not what I prayed for, but they are still good for me.  God leads me through life.  If I choose to walk with Him, I learn, I become a better person, and overall I do better.  This is why Christians believe that there is personal relationship with God, not the inpersonal relationship other religions purport. 

This may seem like a wierd sort of self fulfilling prophesy.  I agree!  It really is very illogical.  when I hear myself say these things, I tell myself you're a wacko! And, that's just it.  

I can't proove it.  If it were obvious, it would not be faith. Why do we need faith?  It seems that this is the test for the original separation between God and man.  In the bible, man turns his back on God (Eden).  It take the willful act of man reaching toward God as an act of faith.  And, Christ has reconciled man to God through his act of dying on the cross.

I have peuked out a lot here.  Really, it is too much to grasp in this short blurb.  Many have studied through Centuries on this matter.    This is why I say to all those naysayers, that there is so very much here that they don't know about, and really need to take a closer look at.  

In summary, it would be lovely to think that all the peoples around this wonderful world respect the opinions of all others and live and let live.  People in the U.S. can only have a concept of this through Christian values.  The rest of the religions around the world do not allow this level of introspection.  It is allowed only through the ultimate quest for the TRUTH; of which the lens of christianity provides.  All other religeons close that window.  

For all those that hate Christianity, I ask you what about it do you hate?  My guess is the authoritarian dogma;  the perceived nontion of control.  I ask you, do you not suffer under the control of the government?,,,of the rules of the corporations that employ you?...of the laws of society?.

Whether we admit it or not, we are all under the influence of pressures from authority.  My question to you is "to which authority will you surrender?"  Who really cares about you?  Anyone?

..."give unto Ceaser what belongs to Ceaser.  And give undo God what belongs to God."

I could really care less about evangelising God to all you schmucks that have nothing but contempt for Him.  And I hope you all get what you deserve!  All those that hate God should have the hairs stand up on the back of your necks for this post.  You people have are so self righteous and have cold hearts.  I do not have the authority to judge you, for I am a sinner myself;  many times over.  But, the difference between you and me is that while we are both sinners, I believe and you don't.  You are self centered contemptuous bastards, just like Mr. Labor here.

Labor, just like you've told me so many times before F**ck You!!!  You are an ingnorant slime ball!!  A man with no humility!!  A man without purpose in his life;   a man that has Contempt for God and all those that believe in Him!!!  I pity you, and the majority of all you Liberal bastards on this website, as I know you all sympathise with him. 

Hess,

The flaw in your reasoning is that God did not CREATE man flawed, but perfect.  It was through original sin that man became flawed.  Man turned his back on God.  Read revelation.  This is the theology of Christianity.  When you say that people that believe in Christianity are robots, or idiots that blindley accept what papel authority dictates I think you look upon those people with contempt.  You think those people are idiots, and that you are superior because reasoning does not allow for this kind of thinking.  I was in your shoes at an earlier point in my life, so I know where you're coming from.  As I stated before, the believe in God is a matter of faith, not scientific proof.  You can't measure the two by the same standards.  If you choose to be a secular humanist (atheist) so be it.   But, if you want to talk about theology, I am very willing to discuss it with you.  You might be surprised at the level of study and philosophy that has gone into this through the ages.  This subject has been studies for thousands of years, and to have contempt for this shows a level of ignorance and self righteousness on your part.  I'm sorry;  I don't mean to attack you (labor I would couse he's just an ass!),  but you really need to take a second look before you make statements like this.

You just feel that all these Christians purport to have a moral high ground and want to tell you what to believe and do.  This is so far from the truth.  In this country we have the separation of Church and State, so no one should feel pressured to do what anyone tells them to do.  If you want to be an atheist, I will not try to talk you out of it.  Go for it.  And, I will not try to convert you (not my job).  But, you definitly do not have the same respect for others that do not believe as you do.  So, I ask you;  who's philosophy/religion is better?  

Food,

God and evil are not the same.  They are two diometrically opposed constructs.  God is not evil.  Satan and evil is the opposite of God and good.  Whatever evil pervades this earth, it is due to mans fall from grace from the perfect creation of God.  Evil is not God's fault. But, though Christ and prayer we strive to reconcile our original state of perfection and grace to God.  And, if we reach out to God, HE responds and becomes part of our walk through life.  We are not in the state of perfect grace at this point in humanity.  There is prophetised the second coming of Christ where "the lion shall lay down with the lamb".  In other words, the original state shall be reinstated, and man shall be brought into the kingdom of God in His perfectly created state.  Jesus (the son of God), has brought us half way at this point in time by forgiving original sin.

Plane,

The crossed guns are not about overt violence or against those peoples that do not believe in anything I believe in.  That is sooooo creeepy.  I think it's only about a symbol of strenght and support of righteoness (not self righteousness, but objective)  against those that want to harm the innocent.  I am totally against violence, but it  is sooo cool to not live in fear of violence.  So, no worris here.  I'm the good guy.  You need to learn that there are good people out there that own guns.  

Yeah,  the whole responsive question of 9-11will be debated for years to come. Should the U.S. have acted, or done nothing?  From a Christian pespective, at face value I suppose we could have said "vengence be mind sayeth the lord", and done nothing. But,  politically, it would never have flied.  Also, it depends on the intent of  your agressor.  

I do believe that the Muslims waged war on "the infidels".  Bin Laden created this Jihad.  We have had the choice to engage or not.  Of course to not engage would be the first rational choice to anyone.  But, would the situation be worse for it, or better?  

Personally, I think that being completely passive in the  world would be a mistake, though I'd love to see it.  The rest of the world does not look upon the white flag with respect, but rather contempt.  People, it is really a dangerous world out there (just look at the news).  But, despite all this we must look to the good in humanity and as Jesus said "love one another".  

So, my mantra is (in the words fo Teddy Roosevelt), "walk quietly, but carry a big stick";  or something like that.  Peace and strength is my motto.  

"If man was created perfect, then man would not have sinned. Then again, had God not invented sin, nobody would have sinned. When God created the capacity for sin, God effectively created sin."

God did not create Sin.  This is man's doing.  When Man turned his back on God, this was the original sin.  Remember, God is perfect, Man is not.  Just because man was created perfect does not mean that he remained perfect.  God created Man in His image.  He had free will, He had choice.  He sinned.  This sin was a result of temptation from Satan. 

So, you see, Sin is not Gods creation.  It is the result of Mans rebuttal to God, in the face of life that the creator gave to him.  Do not blame God for this. 

And, because God is soooo loving and forgiving, He gave his only begotten son as a sacrifice for this sin.  For YOUR sin (and all).  This is a big deal.

You are looking at this through the wrong lens.  God did not create this....., man did.

Quote:the believe in God is a matter of faith, not scientific proof.

I have a magic ring. It cures AIDS. I have faith in this belief. I can't prove that it does this, but I'll claim it does. You just have to have faith that it works. Can you see how this line of reasoning seems unconvincing?

Yep, I do.  You have faith in your magic ring.  There is no scientific proof that it works.  The question is, does it work for YOU?  If it does, I would guess you would believe in it, though you can't proove it to others. 

Once again, like all those non belivers, you are looking for proof for the existence of God.  God has to come to YOU before you believe.  God has to proove HImself to YOU before you consider His existence.

Listen, this is not how God works.  Original sin is about our personal egos.  We are our own self centered universe.  There is no  creator.  It is all about US!  We have to make the first step.

Once one dies unto himself, like Jesus, a whole new world opens up.  A person will never see this if he/she is not willing to make this step.  Once again, this is not Gods fault, but rather Mans. 

Quote:You can't measure the two by the same standards

Why not? The scientific method has brought the world so much more knowledge about the universe in 200 years than biblical studies have done in 2,000 years. Why shouldn't we rely upon the most reliable source of information that we have?

Science is good, no doubt.  And, it can be argued that scienc and religeon have a dance that eventually comes together.  Even Einstein admitted this. 

If you want to live your life by science alone, go for it.  I think you may find it a lonely world.  For while science provides us with mans insights into our physical world, it does nothing for our spiritual world (because it cannot measure a human soul).  And, if you believe there is no such thing as a spiritual world, then I would not stand in your way to your secular humanistic perspective. This is your choice.  But, remember, this is YOU not believing in your creator.  This is a blatent denial of that.  If you're right I guess you have nothing to worry about.  But, if your wrong, you will cease to exist in the afterlife.  This is YOUR choice.  God gave you this choice. 

Quote:You just feel that all these Christians purport to have a moral high ground and want to tell you what to believe and do

While this is not true of all Christians, there are the many that do exactly this, and those that try to do this through legislation. You may want to inform those Christians that they are required to do so, and it isn't wanted in a pluralistic society.

Yep, technically you're right.  But, I would ask you what your values are.  You see, society is a result of values materialistically manifested.  If one wants to completely dismiss God and values from all aspect of our lives, then there has to be some moral code, some value system thate we choose to live by.  So, what is it?  If you completely deny the existence God, and all His laws that have been passed throught the generations, then what laws to you ascribe to?  Shall we go back to child sacrifice as was done over two thousand years ago?  Shall we believe in the Sun Gods?  How about  Posiden and Zeuss? 

If one believes in a pluralistic society as you say, then one only believes that whatever is the flavor of the month is what we ascribes to.  In other words, you don't believe in anything;  just contemporary beliefs that change like the fashions of clothes. 

I think what you are trying to say is tolerance for all.  But, this value does not stand on it's own merit.  For what value system proclaimes tolerence?  Not Islam!  Only Christianity.  The very base that you abhore! 

Quote:who's philosophy/religion is better?

Methodological naturalism.

This is a secular humanistic religion.  It does not believe in a personal God as the creator as christians do.  It has had no savior/prophet that endorses this;  only man's concept of what should be right and wrong (from his own mind).  This is more far out than Christianity, that's for sure.  You might as well believe in Zeuss!!

Look, here's the thing.  It is well documented historically that Jesus was a real man, that existed two thousand years ago.  The question remains if one believes if he was the son of God, and performed miracles.  Was this man God?  This is the crux of the matter.  If one does not believe so, then all bets are off.  Anything goes.

But, if one does, then this is where Christianity begins!  If you read the works of this man it is truly fascinating!  And, there is soo much to be learned here!  This is the basis of not only America, but western Europe!

This country would not be what it is if it were not for this value system.  For all those that have contempt for it, I would ask you what value system would you all like to be under? 

I think many people take this system for granted.  And, I think if it were gone they would miss it very much.  So, for all those liberals out there that have soooo much contempt for Christianity, I would ask you to introspect on how you would feel under a more repressive political/theological regime. 

Think about it!

Bottom Line Folks,

The bottom line here as I see it is the new secular humanistic religeon vs. all traditional religions here in America.  Since this country is a melting pot of many cultures around the world, it seems we need to accept everyones cultures and beliefs as part of America's value system.  This seems to be the values of America. 

I wonder what America would look like 100 years from now.  If America claims to be tolerant off all, what value system will we have in the future?  If a bunch of hooligans came to this country and believed that killing and eating their victims was part of their religion, would American honor that?  Would we set aside a place in this country for those people to practice their "Religion"?   Is there no limit to what we accept?

You see, society cannot absolutely separate church and state.  And, those of you that believe that atheism is not a religeon, just listen to Thomm.  It is a belief system;  a religion.  The belief in the absence of God is a religeon.  Their religeon is in pure evolultion as a result of accidental events, with no purpose in this life, and no afterlife.  It's all just random coincidence.  This is a belief system;  a religeon!  And, we can make laws that reflect this belief system.  Just go back several thousand years and you will see it.  Multi-Theism.  Child sacrifice.  Orgy's on the alter to the Crop gods.  You name it.  It is spiritual anarchy.  And, I don't think many people today would accept this sort of behavior.

Why?  Because we have learned and evolved through Christianity;  the prophets that came before Jesus, and then Jesus.  This man's entrance into our world has changed it dramatically.  And, this was God's plan. 

For those of you that deny this, so be it.  No one is forcing you.  But, for those that have an open heart and the desire to seek the TRUTH, the door is open to you for exploration.  The risk is minimal (except for turning away from your pride), and the rewards are great. What have you got to lose?

Just so you all know, I really HATE evangelising!!!  I could really care less about changing someone.  I really just want to live my life the way I see fit, and let others do the same.  But, when I see ignorant people talking smack about stuff they really don't know anything about, I feel obliged to correct the record.  So, take it for what it's worth.

Fletcher,

I think I agree with you whole heartedly.  And, I apologize if I came accross as myopic (Big word....had to look it up :^) )  I am merely trying to balance the secular humanistic perspective here with traditional Christian Dogma.    I do not claim nor believe that the Christian Church is perfect.  I have many complaints myself. And, I'm merely trying to contrast the extremes for arguments sake;  in order to frame the debate.   I would not be on this website if I didn't have progressive ideas.  A true right wing extremist would not even waste their time here.   

I go to Christian Bible studies and regularly challenge the Dogma of the church.  There are many grey areas in this discussion.  And, while I may disagree with some of these thorny issues, I also can appreciate where the church is coming from, and what their reasoning is behind there moral adjuncts. 

I think if we were to completely dismiss the moral authority of the Christian Church, the world would be a much worse place.  So, we must be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater as they say.  In my church (Roman Catholic), there is a communion between the parisioners and the priests.  The people in my group do not accept church teachings with absolute authority anymore.  Times have changed.  The peoples are educated enought today to question these moral issues, and the church cannot ignore that anymore.  So,  the new approach is to open discussions on these issues.  In my church it's called "Adult Faith Ministries", and we have very deep discussions on contemporary issues and how they are viewed by the faith of Christianity and the teaching of the Church.

We should not accept the teachings of Church at face value anymore, because the Church is fallable.  But, we should not completely dismiss the Church either because it is not perfect.  The inspired church seeks to bring the word of GOD into our lives to improve it;  to improve humanity;  and, it sets the bar for us to strive for  better r.  It does not seek to persecute the individual.  It merely seeks to investigate the true meaning of life,  and how to approach it (in the purest sence).

So, criticize all you want.  I'm in there too.  But, I would never leave my church for it's fallabilites, but rather stick by it, and look to correct  and perfect it, much as we would a family member that has gone astray. 

DHavid,

You need to do some more research on this issue.  I can tell from your response that you haven't looked more deeply into this.  This is a very deep subject, with many nuonces. 

Fletcher,

The book of Revelations is quite arguably the most difficult book in the bible.  Some scholars even wonder why it was included. I find it facinating, though quite  apocolyptic.

 So, the question arises, " whould you completely discount what is written in the Bible on all fronts due to the inunderstandable nature of revelation"?  Is there no value there whatsoever? 

Once again, my issue here is the total goal of discretiting the teachings of the chruch.  While I agree that there is so much that is not understandable by contemporary man in Revelation,  does this misunderstanding negate the Chruch?  Are we our own Gods that we can judge for ourselves?  Does the Church have a roll in our everyday contemporay society? 

I think the thing that bugs so many poeple about the Church is that it doesn't budge and excuse our own personal behavior.  They stubbornly hold to the moral highground, and make no apologies for it.  As self centered contemporary people we expect the church to change for us.  But it doesen't.  And, that's the problem.

What we should resist is blind obedience to an fallible  instituion.  What we shouldn't do is condem and throw away the heart and soul of our conceived personal and mutual believes embodied in the Church.

So, in summary,  there is fine grey line here people.  We need to be smart, humbly obedient, and have reverence for our lord and savior.  We also need to seek the truth so as to improve the church. 

No man is an Island.  And, no Island is a man.  So, keep the faith, seek truth, and pray to God the creator. 

That, or go it alone and seek your own personal form of Religeion.

God Speed Ya'll.

dhavid; 

Well then, you are a better man than I. Yep.  So, what is your recomendation to me?  Should I completely pitch Christianity?  What religeon should I adopt?  Should I adopt any?  Are they all hogwash?  What should we believe in....anything?  Nothing at all?  Tell me. 

So People,

My ultimate question here that I pose to you all is "do you believe in God or not"?  And, beyond that and as a result of that, "Is there a creator"?  Is HE/SHE  a personal God?  In other words, do we have a personal relation ship with HIM/HER, or is it an impersonal one?  Is God real, or kinda like Santa Claus,  a figment of our own creation? 

I don't think any of us can come up with proof positive for any of this.  But, what I do believe is that even if none of this were true, we are better people for the idea of it.  The values perpetuated, hard and high valued as they are have created a challenge to Man to become better, even if they are not attainable.