If Giants Get a Parade, Say Some Vets, Why Not Us?

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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/07/nyregion/calls-for-a-new-york-parade-h...

Why don't Iraq Vets get a Welcome Home Parade in Liberal States?

Calperson's picture
Calperson
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Dec. 11, 2010 10:21 am

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Welcome home parades are this country's legitimization of the culture of murder. Instead of making war something to celebrate, we should treat it as the failure of diplomacy that it is and hang our heads in shame.

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D_NATURED
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Oct. 20, 2010 8:47 pm

If your question had the slightest degree of integrity, would we not be seeing welcome home vets parades in all the red states? Those who have called for welcome home vet parades and for care for returning vets seem to me to be solidly Liberal, starting with Rachel and Ed. The veterans calling for them are pretty solidly opposed to the wars and take support the troops seriously when they come back, unlike the militarist goons who gladly ship the cannon fodder "over there" to satisfy their myth needs for American Empire.

Calperson, you really are a hack.

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DRC
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote D_NATURED:

Welcome home parades are this country's legitimization of the culture of murder. Instead of making war something to celebrate, we should treat it as the failure of diplomacy that it is and hang our heads in shame.

What about the100's people in the two U.S. embassies who were blown up?

What about the 19 Airmen that were killed in the Saudi towers?

What about the 17 sailors aboard the USS Cole?

What about the nearly 3000 civilians killed during 911?

Are you saying this was NOT murder? If it was murder, then what should we have done?

Or did they deserve to die? Why did a mom working in her office, drinking coffee deserve to be burned alive with jet fuel? Did she deserve it? And if she deserved it, then don't you deserve it as well?

rigel1's picture
rigel1
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Jan. 31, 2011 7:49 am

What amazes me is that it is Liberals who are calling for the parades and you cons keep acting as if support the troops means approving the wars they were forced to fight for all the wrong reasons. We are the ones demanding good VA services and counseling for the victims of war. We are the ones who can separate Cheney's crimes from the service of the troops.

I oppose the glorification of war, and a lot of the rituals involving flags and soldiers do not support the humanity of the people and families who have suffered. They are just icons we salute to justify these evil wars. I do not blame those who serve for the civilian sins of elective wars for political advantage. I would hang Cheney at the Veteran's Parade to make the point.

DRC's picture
DRC
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote DRC:

What amazes me is that it is Liberals who are calling for the parades and you cons keep acting as if support the troops means approving the wars they were forced to fight for all the wrong reasons. We are the ones demanding good VA services and counseling for the victims of war. We are the ones who can separate Cheney's crimes from the service of the troops.

I oppose the glorification of war, and a lot of the rituals involving flags and soldiers do not support the humanity of the people and families who have suffered. They are just icons we salute to justify these evil wars. I do not blame those who serve for the civilian sins of elective wars for political advantage. I would hang Cheney at the Veteran's Parade to make the point.

Two things

1) You did not answer the questions that I asked in post # 4. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away.

2) You claim that the troops were forced to fight. Wrong, wrong, wrong. There is no draft. They are all volunteers. They all volunteered for combat roles knowing that they would be sent to the fight. There was no "forcing." I am a former marine and nearly every marine in Afghanistan is there because he wants to be there. That is why we are so good at what we do.

rigel1's picture
rigel1
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Jan. 31, 2011 7:49 am

Fool. Do you still believe these wars ought to have been fought? I try very hard to separate my real support for the human beings taken from their homes to do the dirty work of Corporate Empire from my anger about the Cheney's of this world. I do appreciate how war is sold and why "patriots" find themselves going in good faith that their country needs them. I have nothing at all against and much respect for those who conduct themselves with honor anyway, and in my experience, it has been the liberals who have been there for the troops when they come back and need medical and social support. Check the votes to see who has been there for the troops. It is not the GOPimp Right.

An economic draft is just the backdoor version. A lot of naive guys and gals have signed up for the ads promising everything from mythic glory to actual educational benefits. A lot of them have been cheated out of what has been promised. Then there is the psychological impact of war and our failure to provide the transition back to civilian life, the homes foreclosed while the troops are in the field, the families broken by violence from PSTD and on and on.

Please wake up to who has been there for the people in the military and who just loves to hold rites of glory for their own mythic satisfaction.

As to your list of reasons to go to war: They are the tragic consequences of our military and economic intrusion into other people's countries. But who has responded to them and who has used them to pursue more imperial nonsense? I think it is clear that the Democratic Presidents have been head and shoulders above the fools who have used war politically. The Bush Crime Family and the bin Ladens do business together. Clinton was pretty good at responding to the Cole and had a real campaign against al Qaeda that Bush/Cheney ignored before 9/11. The world was with us before Bush/Cheney made it their "new Pearl Harbor" while also failing to get bin Laden.

I think you need to look in the mirror to see who has been on the wrong side of history including failing our troops and using them in the most cynical and criminal way possible.

And, only a grassroots parade in St. Louis supported by liberals and vets has taken place. Ed and Rachel lead the criticism of the Pentagon for not having one in NY and elsewhere. Thank you for your service, now show some class for a change.

DRC's picture
DRC
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote DRC:

Fool. Do you still believe these wars ought to have been fought?

As to your list of reasons to go to war: They are the tragic consequences of our military and economic intrusion into other people's countries..

You still have not answered the below question? Did they deserve it?

What about the100's people in the two U.S. embassies who were blown up?

What about the 19 Airmen that were killed in the Saudi towers?

What about the 17 sailors aboard the USS Cole?

What about the nearly 3000 civilians killed during 911?

Are you saying this was NOT murder? If it was murder, then what should we have done?

Or did they deserve to die? Why did a mom working in her office, drinking coffee deserve to be burned alive with jet fuel? Did she deserve it? And if she deserved it, then don't you deserve it as well?

What military intrusions are you refering to? Who have we forced ourselves on? What economic intrusions? By buying their oil we made the Arabs filthy rich. No wonder the hate us.

So you're saying that it is okay to burn people in their offices? That we deserved it?

rigel1's picture
rigel1
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Jan. 31, 2011 7:49 am

You are either deaf, dumb and blind or just a troll. I answered you. Our Empire has intruded into the Middle East and is hated for it. We wanted "our oil" and the fact that it was under Iraqi sand was seen as outrageous by the Cheney. I don't justify terrorism, but I doubt Americans would be peaceful and kind about troops stationed in America to get our resources for their empire. I think we might find attacks on the invaders patriotic, and if we took the violence home to them, we would justify it by pointing to the crimes against our families and the stealing of our land and resources.

I did not see Clinton justifying the attack on the Cole. He responded to it. Dems did not station troops in Saudi or engage in the bs Desert Storm TV War to reverse the "Vietnam Syndrome" like Pappy Bush did and boasted about. And, Bill left plenty of intelligence and warnings about the pending threat from al Qaeda that the Cheney blew off. Then he used the crime to pursue elective wars that had nothing to do with 9/11.

How does this make me say that anyone deserved to die on a ship or in an office? I think there are consequences to imperial crimes, but that does not mean that I welcome them or think that the innocent citizens are the ones who need to be held accountable. They are the victims of the Empire as well as the violent reaction to it. This is why I don't want "the troops" sent on another "racket mission" to make the fat cats fatter and richer. I also think that while we have made some Arab sheiks and the Saudi's filthy rich, there are a lot of Arabs who hate that deeply and would prefer not to have those tyrants running them. Are they wrong to blame us for screwing up their countries?

How about the Iranians who were in the streets of Tehran in sympathy with the victims of 9/11 to whom Cheney gave the finger as he rejected a diplomatic reconciliation because it got in the way of his wars? Had we worked with the Islamic world that hated bin Laden, we could have gotten him and al Qaeda without any troops having to be involved.

The history of war crimes and treason on the Right from Nixon subverting LBJ's diplomacy on has made our "evil empire" ugly to the world. Check out Chalmers Johnson on the tragedy of empire and blowback. Had we behaved ourselves and pursued the diplomatic course most Democrats have supported, none of the crimes you cite would have taken place. I reject your charges on solid ground. You cannot make the case that appreciating and understanding the nature of empire and the reaction against it makes the crimes excusable. What it really does is demonstrate that those who put our troops and civilians in harm's way for their own greed and ego are the villains in the piece. This is why I would hang Cheney on a float parade to honor the vets. I will not dishonor their lives and deaths with the justification of war crimes and imperialism. You do that and it is very ugly.

DRC's picture
DRC
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote DRC:

You are either deaf, dumb and blind or just a troll. I answered you. Our Empire has intruded into the Middle East and is hated for it. We wanted "our oil"

To answer your question. Yes, I am getting a little hard of hearing. My eyes are not what they used to be. Not dumb though. Not a genius either. But I am a little ADDish.

About the troll thing. As I said before I'm not a troll. I'm a Sasquatch and I have the papers to prove it. Why can't you let a squatch be a squatch? You got something against harmless, furry woodland creatures?

Back on topic.

The one thing that the Arabs do love is to sell us "our oil". You must admit that we have made them very, very wealthy. I think they are just fine with taking our money. Oh, and its not really an "intrusion" if the host country allows you to be there. And it's not really an Empire if you leave when you are done as we did in Iraq. Empires tend to hold on to territory.

rigel1's picture
rigel1
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Jan. 31, 2011 7:49 am
Quote rigel1:
Quote D_NATURED:

Welcome home parades are this country's legitimization of the culture of murder. Instead of making war something to celebrate, we should treat it as the failure of diplomacy that it is and hang our heads in shame.

What about the100's people in the two U.S. embassies who were blown up?

What about the 19 Airmen that were killed in the Saudi towers?

What about the 17 sailors aboard the USS Cole?

What about the nearly 3000 civilians killed during 911?

Are you saying this was NOT murder? If it was murder, then what should we have done?

Or did they deserve to die? Why did a mom working in her office, drinking coffee deserve to be burned alive with jet fuel? Did she deserve it? And if she deserved it, then don't you deserve it as well?

Of course that was murder. But by whom? Was it the armies of Afghanistan or the armies of Iraq that murdered all of those Americans? Maybe it was the Libians? Who have we been at war with for the last 10 years? Did Suddan send Iraqi soldiers over here to hijack planes and kill Americans? Did every tribe in the Middle East send their massive armies to attack America?

This thread is about parade's for returning war veterans is it not? We have been at war in Iraq and Afghanistan. There is a difference between an act of war and an act of terrorism. Everything that you've stated were acts of terrorism. We engaged in war under the premise of retaliation for acts of terrorism that probably didn't even have anything to do with either Iraq or Afghanistan. Why didn't we go to war with Saudi Arabia instead? As of late most of our soldiers are dying for corporatism under the guise of freedom.

Having said all of that I would be one of the first to volunteer to set up a parade for our returning vets.

Bush_Wacker's picture
Bush_Wacker
Joined:
Jun. 25, 2011 7:53 am

A parade, like the one in St. Louis would be supported by almost all of us on the Left. We would not treat it as a blessing of the wars, but we definitely honor those who served and are all for taking care of the damage done. I have said that I would love to see Dick Cheney hanging on one of the floats to make the point about who to blame, shame and punish for putting the troops in harm's way for their profit and glory. The civilian misuse of the military needs to be stopped. We need to stop the rituals of war that have taken over our sports events as well. The navy is not a force for good around the world, it is a force for petroleum access and exploitation, and the world knows it for what it is.

Chalmers Johnson was eloquent on the tragedy of empire and why no foreign bases make us loved by those who live with our soldiers based in their countries. How would we feel with Norwegian 19 year olds drinking in our bars and looking to screw our daughters, wives and mothers. Now, Norwegians are a pretty civilized people, but that is not the point. Soldiers are not diplomats.

I am not saying that none of our people abroad behave themselves and that there is never a friendship developed. But it ain't the norm, and it is also true that all empires are evil if you believe in democracy rather than conquest and spoils. I expect there were some pious German patriots among the SS too. It did not make them good guests in the countries they invaded.

Hedges first big book for America was WAR, A FORCE THAT GIVES US MEANING. It is a serious reflection on the pathology of war and how its addictive powers seduce us into pursuing it as a death wish. We need to get over the idea that warriors make good civil leaders without a decommissioning and transformation from warrior to citizen. Leaving our returning vets with their war psychology and expecting them to be great parents and spouses, or great employees without serious counseling and other support is naive and irresponsible. The best thing military experience can teach is unit loyalty and the need to lift up the weakest and make them effective rather than to treat them as losers. A liberal socialist idea, I know, but being in this together is more than rhetoric.

Hedges also recognizes that there are some incredible soldiers whose performance in the worst conditions deserves the highest respect and honor. They are the ones who resist the culture of demonizing the enemy and who demand the highest respect for the civilians on the ground. They do not succumb to fear and do not shoot first. Yes, they do place themselves at risk, but they understand what is at stake. They do not love war. They do not buy into the glory images of the ads that beguile adolescents into joining to become "men" or "women." Again, they are unfortunately more the exception than the rule.

Smedley Butler keeps being proved correct in his assertion that "war is a racket." We need to learn that so we will never again allow liars and fearmongers to choose wars for political gain. We need to appreciate that war is the failure of politics, always a tragedy that will make things worse than had we done the politics of peace. Again, Dick Cheney is a war criminal and shoud be hanging, Nurenburg Style as counterpoint to honoring our troops and bringing them back to being citizens.

DRC's picture
DRC
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote rigel1:
Quote D_NATURED:

Welcome home parades are this country's legitimization of the culture of murder. Instead of making war something to celebrate, we should treat it as the failure of diplomacy that it is and hang our heads in shame.

What about the100's people in the two U.S. embassies who were blown up?

What about the 19 Airmen that were killed in the Saudi towers?

What about the 17 sailors aboard the USS Cole?

What about the nearly 3000 civilians killed during 911?

Are you saying this was NOT murder? If it was murder, then what should we have done?

Of course they were murdered. Are you saying we are no better than they that we should use our forces for revenge and intimidation (shock and awe)? Your mentality is one of a street gang, not a nation of laws with justice for all.

Or did they deserve to die? Why did a mom working in her office, drinking coffee deserve to be burned alive with jet fuel? Did she deserve it? And if she deserved it, then don't you deserve it as well?

LOL. In response to the crimes you mentioned, we have murdered ten or a hundred fold of that which Muslim terrorists have of our citizens and displaced millions of others. Did they deserve that? Even if you believe in the stupid biblical concept of an eye for an eye, we have gone way too far. We have declared war on people who were merely unfortunate enough to have brown skin, speak arabic and practice Islam because some people who also fit that description have harmed us. An analogy would be if some black guy was drunk, crashed into and killed my wife. Then, for justice, I go to Harlem with an assault rifle and kill 100 black women and children that didn't even know the guy who killed my wife. Then I ask the judge why I'm not permitted to walk out of the court room a free man, after having defended myself and my wife.

Do you not see how horrible the world would be with you in charge? How little you must endure to condone so much more of it.

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D_NATURED
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