Malcom X on the "House Negro"

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Had Malcom lived, who do you suppose he would be talking about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znQe9nUKzvQ

FoodForAll's picture
FoodForAll
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Jan. 18, 2012 8:23 pm

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Really! Had Malcolm lived, how would he have changed and what changes would he have been able to be part of? This is really dumbo time. I was a Malcom X fan before he was killed. It has absolutely nothing to do with Obama. How about Cornell West? There are plenty of serious Black voices today who want a whole lot more than Obama can be, but they don't spend their time bashing him instead of opposing the Santorums and Gingrichs.

There are also some very strong critics like Chris Hedges who don't have to be brought back from the past to express deep criticism of the system and even strong criticism of Obama and his role in the system. Martin Luther King, Jr., would have been another critic, but that is why he was killed too. Deal with the history you have and work for the future you and I and others want and need.

Being more radical than thou is not what it is about. We are not ignorant. We are not even timid. But we do appreciate that a lot has gone down that nobody in the 60's was prepared for.

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DRC
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

No doubt your latest piece of sophistry will get all the mileage you care for, here in Thom’s echo chamber. I happen to have a high regard for both history and scripture, not as a means to advance some sanctimonious and narrow partisan ideology tied to the interminable apologia that is ubiquitous on this site, and especially from you, its chief spokesperson.

Malcom’s robust critique can illuminate the diminishment of the poor for those living under the yoke of economic oppression in our own moment of time. Of course, those married to the status quo such as yourself and Thom, have more to lose than the “field negro” metaphor suggests.

Those on the margins have absolutely nothing to lose and it is precisely why you live in a vacuum of your Ivory Tower. The cleavage between the privileged class you represent here, indelibly bears witness that we have nothing in common with your ilk and by “we” I am speaking for people living in poverty; and despite the clever marketing schema of meme’s that has become sacred to your type. Other diverse voices have a right to speak about our own marginalization and as much as I am sure you want to keep it out sight. After all, maintaining the status quo Is your primary function here, is it not?

What is hilariously ironic is the lightning quickness to every negative critique that hits the forum, and is met with a rebuttal within minutes of its posting. Tell me, do you have a real job other than your paid-to-participate status while rendering the chief apologia on the forum on behalf of Obama?

After all, the pattern reminds of some religious zealot of any Christian fundamentalist appellation in both scope and praxis.

Malcolm’s critique is just as valid in our contemporary moment as it was in his own day. It can be understood as a metaphor for those who service the elites at the expense of the marginalized. In fact, Malcolm’s juxtaposition between those who have the wealth against those who don’t, is a contemporary problem, because poverty is on the rise and mimicking the poverty of the early sixties now, as many non partisan sources note.

It is perfectly all right with me if you and the rest of the apologists on this site cower in fear of any republican candidate. The fact is, Obama is not BETTER ENOUGH for those on the margins of the social fabric.

Oh, feel free to spout all the non sense you want about "more radical than thou" since it says more about your own inadequacies and fear based philosophy than it says about me.

And since you mentioned Hedges and West, here is what Hedges said about your ilk on the matter.

" The liberal class, which attempted last week to discredit the words my friend Cornel West spoke about Barack Obama and the Democratic Party, prefers comfort and privilege to justice, truth and confrontation. Its guiding ideological stance is determined by what is most expedient to the careers of its members. It refuses to challenge, in a meaningful way, the decaying structures of democracy or the ascendancy of the corporate state. It glosses over the relentless assault on working men and women and the imperial wars that are bankrupting the nation. It proclaims its adherence to traditional liberal values while defending and promoting systems of power that mock these values. The pillars of the liberal establishment—the press, the church, culture, the university, labor and the Democratic Party—all honor an unwritten quid pro quo with corporations and the power elite, as well as our masters of war, on whom they depend for money, access and positions of influence. Those who expose this moral cowardice and collaboration with corporate power are always ruthlessly thrust aside."

source: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/05/23-4

Shakespeare wrote in Hamlet the following and which aptly describes your particiapation on this site, DRC:

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

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FoodForAll
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Jan. 18, 2012 8:23 pm

FoodForAll,

I'm fairly confident DRC isn't "married to the status quo," even if he and I may differ on how to escape it. No fan of David Korten or Chris Hedges supports the status quo.

I'm sure there really is more that unites you and DRC than there is that divides the two of you.

The "holier (radical-er) than thou" accusations from both sides should be given a rest, IMHO.

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Garrett78
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Sep. 3, 2010 9:20 am

Great: now comes the DRC apologetic. Perfect!

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FoodForAll
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Jan. 18, 2012 8:23 pm

Seems I'm always on the other side of someone's line.

It's always been hard for me to join. And then when I don't they find a way to reject me. That's America too.

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.ren
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Apr. 1, 2010 7:50 am

FoodForAll,

I'd say you're too focused on an individual cog in the machine. Is Obama a problem or a solution, or neither? If neither, I'd turn your focus elsewhere. But that's just me.

I'd say the same about his so-called opposition. I can't get too worked up by Santorum's insanity or Gingrich's hypocrisy. It's show business, and I don't partake.

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Garrett78
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Sep. 3, 2010 9:20 am

Whatever it is that pisses you off about my comments, take a good look at yourself to figure it out. I am interested in having an effective and persistent movement, not in dividing those who are not on the wrong side. I don't give the 'moderates' a pass either when they want to make their politics the norm and declare the radicals out of the game. But, I have been at this long enough not to think that being right is the same as being effective, and I also know that it takes a broad and diverse movement to get there. I want you to do your thing, but not to get upset at everybody who is not like you. I have tried to tell you that I am aware of the big picture and that I honor Malcolm and did so before he became a martyr. Of course he has wisdom we needed then and still does.

Check out Marcus Garvey. He was pretty hot too. I supported Rev. Wright and Black Liberation Theology is deep in my soul. I have read the passage from Chris Hedges you quote, and I have nothing against my brother Presbyterian theology student. After Chris teaches prisoners, he cries about their wasted lives. We can even agree to disagree within the same communion and without my having any need to do more than do my part while he does his.

I can see Obama as enough better to matter. I think we can use him to puncture the illusion of democracy without making things worse to prove the point. I doubt that it helps to reinforce the disappointment of the naive by trashing him instead of explaining why he is not the savior they thought an election could bring. If he can't, it just makes the evidence of the failed system stronger. Do you think Kucinich could have been the savior? Do you think Nader could? What would have to be different to even make these alternatives real?

From your handle, I would advise you to get very busy on food security and help people have food. It is a great organizing and educational issue because it does not require a lot of theory to get people involved. Just do it works in food, and it tastes good so we don't have to go "health food" or make everyone into a vegan by moralizing against meat, etc. Good food is real food. Seasonal and local makes local producers and connecting them with people who need food a natural match. The supermarket is going to die of its reliance on petro and mass.

If you think I am trying to moderate the radicals, you miss the point. I am trying to put the focus on power and the system instead of the tv show. I love radical street theater, and without a far left, the moderate is useless. But it works the other way too. I even know some Republicans who are going to be part of the future. Believe it or not, it hardly matters. But get over the defensivness and moralism so we can have a lot more fun about a long struggle. You don't have to lecture everyone about how bad it really is unless you are willing to listen to them and care about what they think too. I take on the cons because I want them to do more than repeat their memes, but I am not trying to convert them to be like me. I just want them to be critical players with their own narrative unfolding because I think this is about the 99, not just about me and those to the left of me.

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DRC
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Sigh, you must be correct. It comes with the territory. How old are you? I hope you live long enough to get over this phase. I bet I am at least twice as long with this as you. I don't want to make that the issue, but I have been there and done that, so good luck.

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DRC
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Pot calling the kettle black.

Please take the last word, and make it memorable.

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FoodForAll
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Jan. 18, 2012 8:23 pm

Actually DRC, your habitual stalking of any non DRC thought demonstrates your own emotionally triggered based responses and repressed, uncontrolled anger at any differing point of view, all mired in various forms of emotional and unresolved upset and angst. It surely must take a great deal of energy defending the boards against diverse points of view not in alignment with your narrow belief system

Let’s keep it real: I am not the one on this forum logging 100 plus posts per day to challenge any negative critique against Obama -- that would be you. So your characterization of me hardly hits the mark and reflects your own psychological projections. What you just described in that post is yourself, not me. As usual, you have it backwards; you do your thing and your thing is about rebutting any point of view that does not fit nicely into your political and social box. When that happens, you then get upset producing a knee jerk reaction by any anomaly that hits the forum and falls outside of your narrow ideology. Go back and re-read your posts and try getting a grip!

No doubt your personal righteousness is deeply colored your lack of objectivity when it comes to getting Obama reelected; so when you make broad generalizations about some undefined “strategy” which will trigger some broad coalition to move the country toward progressive ideals, then I suspect you have some kind of ‘messiah complex’ going on, because all the legislative fiat that has emerged from the Obama Administration has been right-of-center including Orwellian executive orders that make Bush’s orders look like a walk in the park. Feel free to pursue you illusions. My posts don’t inhibit that in any way.

Moreover, if you think that your contribution to this forum is creating some type of broad movement toward progressive legislation, then I wonder how deeply the illusions run and have a gripe on you?

Your ilk has not provided “effective” leadership which translates into progressive legislation in anyway in the last three years and specifically as measured against the regressive and anti-new deal gains Obama has dismantled with impunity. For some astonishing reason your ilk is still operating from plan B scenarios that are fluid in their revisions. As each giveaway transpires your ilk makes excuses for it while concomitantly advancing fairy tales/memes about some future turnaround that NEVER arrives. If I were to summarize your impotent strategy via a powerful novel which advances the same themes, it would be Waiting for Godot.

Taken directly from the Theatre of the Absurd, Two men, Vladimir and Estragon, wait to meet with a man named Godot. Several characters enter and leave while providing contradictory information about Godot who never actually arrives. At the end of the book, Vladimir and Estragon finally decide to leave, but they never actually move, even as the curtain falls.

The themes in the book accurately describe your hopeless situation and impotent strategy. Furthermore, naming Obama’s capitulations and crimes against humanity is an act of empowerment, at least for the empowered. Then again, your paycheck demonstrates your fidelity to the absurd life of the elite.

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FoodForAll
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Jan. 18, 2012 8:23 pm

Store Front Preaching... Pass The Hat!

I'm a sucker for a good rant. I always have been. While I find him to be VERY entertaining, I do not have a deep respect for Malcom X.

Ultimately, when one "speaks" for a permanent living wage... they start to contort their speech to what they think their crowd will want them to say. Watch a "Joel Osteen" sermon sometime and you'll begin to notice that he really doesn't say anything. The bible tells us that being a Christian is hard and the world probably won't like you. "Brother" Joel (and his fellow mega-church talkers) pretty much tell people what they want to hear. A nice, feel good parable or two. (And as always, spoken by some guy who isn't too menacing or masculine. And let's not forget the fabulous hair do!)

The bible also says that one should pray in silence. There's not one actual example of a prayer being spoken out loud (in front of a crowd) in the New Testament. The reason being, is that once you start speaking aloud in front of an audience... you will naturally begin to "self edit" your speech in order to fit in and not be thought of as socially awkward. Or you might begin to brag and boast to make yourself more grandiose in front of others.

It has come "out" that Malcolm X had homosexual affairs before he "saw the light" and began preaching. I guess Michelle Bachman was right for once. You really can "PRAY THE GAY AWAY!" (Bwahahaha!)

Nothing against a persons RIGHT to be gay. But to be gay and preach a religion that strictly forbids one from being gay, is what the religious folk call a "charlatan". BTW, that's not a person from North Carolina.

He was flamboyant. He loved speaking in front of a crowd. He loved being the center of attention. He had homosexual affairs (in the past... right. Because we all know of homosexuals who just stop... right.) Doesn't this sound a lot like the modern, in the closet, priest and preachers that we have around today? Come to think of it, lots of Pro Wrestlers become preachers when they get too old to work in the ring. Coincidence?

They too have said a lot of good things. They tend to lose credibility when they are outed as hypocrites, though. For some reason, Mr. Malcolm Little hasn't.

As the prophet "Bono" once said, "The God I believe in isn't short of cash, Mister!" I agree.

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Fletcher Christian
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Feb. 15, 2012 12:49 pm

I see your up to your old tricks DRC still manipulating the software to create more illusions for the sheeple by reposting a duplicate of my original post out of sequence of its original. Just more of an apt demonstration of your cowardice.

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FoodForAll
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Jan. 18, 2012 8:23 pm

"By Any Means Necessary, The Macho Man is goin' DOWN! Oh! You didn't know!?! The beat down I give Savage will be... 'X'-TREME!!!! (snarl-grunt, hit the pose) Forearms in front of his face making a literal "X"

Now that I think about it, "Malcolm X" does sound like a Pro Wrestling moniker.

"Macho Man" Savage vs. "Malcom X".... in a STEEL CAGE this Sunday on PPV!

The Macho Man had the top rope elbow drop finisher, I guess Malcom X's finisher would be Sean Waltman's the old "X-Factor" face plant.

I just can't take his legacy that serious guys. Being raised in a religious household... it's easy to spot the fakes... and he was a fake.

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Fletcher Christian
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Feb. 15, 2012 12:49 pm

The software of this board is under the design and direction of Nigel Peacock, not DRC. As I understand it, Nigel's been behind the scenes designing these boards for Thom for about the past 12 years. Here he explains his completion of his long sought goal to put everything in one complete integrated package. I have never once seen DRC use any of the software in a post. I've never seen him edit one of his posts or anyone else's. I think he can type very well and write out his thoughts. I think that's about it, but I could be wrong.

What happens is, when you edit a post the software will jump your post to the bottom of a thread. Nigel has made some efforts to fix that but when he did, then other things went haywire. I guess that's the downside to a large, integrated platform.

We've had much better message board software in the past but those boards weren't integrated with other parts of Thom's site. This is apparently what Thom wants. I don't get the feeling the message board is his highest priority.

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.ren
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Apr. 1, 2010 7:50 am

I am sure it must be common knowledge that posts are rearranged to manipulate context. Case in point was a conversation that was re-arranged in real time while it happened last night: my post which started with “Actually DRC…” was posted directly after DRC’s post which began with “What pisses you off…”

That led to DRC posting, “sigh…” followed by my response, “Pot calling the kettle black.” That was the original order of posts in real time. Now I see another rearrangement has taken place again seeking to manipulate the original context again along with some further non sense from the forum class clown, CF.

You might want to consider that some posters here use multiple sign on identities representing their various alter egos. I suppose it goes with the territory of posting on a political forum. The Tea Party nut jobs share much confluence with the fear based apologetic wing of the Democratic Party.

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FoodForAll
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Jan. 18, 2012 8:23 pm

Ren, I posted before reading your latest. I was refering to 'edit" capability of moderators. Nothing more. I assume DRC still fills that role here. If I am mistaken, then I regret it. But it happens to be the second time they have rearranged the post order. And Ive only contributed less then twenty posts. Odd don't you think?

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FoodForAll
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Jan. 18, 2012 8:23 pm

Actually Food, that happens all of the time. Whenever someone goes back to a previous post in order to edit it, it somehow changes the post order. It happens to me a lot.

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Bush_Wacker
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Jun. 25, 2011 7:53 am

They've gone to some lengths to "disguise" who fills what role on this board. I assume that DRC is still a moderator only because he is so busy countering the more obvious trolls. But I don't really know. I've dropped way out of caring.

Like I said somewhere recently, I doubt that this will ever be the board it was in 2004. I don't think that kind of openness is possible now that Thom has the national attention he's achieved. I have my own little niche here. I don't think many people pay attention to what I post, and that's just the way I like it. Generally I'm not a target anymore and I can feel free to express myself. The administration has made that possible, whatever it is they are doing, and I'm more than happy not to care. What I miss from the old days I get in my local community interactions, face to face. The message board can serve a lot of different types, especially if the most abusive stalkers can be stopped, and they seem to have figured that one out finally. People that get into extended gummy bear tiffs do it because they takes things personally and can't let something go. It's probably related to that little nasty critter called the ego.

I don't like the personal invective actions that take place as people think they get to know you. I have a life long history developing skills to stay clear of that. In a period when I went after some of the trolls on this site after they targeted me, it brought home the reasons I developed those skills in the first place.

The software is problematic. Did anything inside your posts change without you changing it? I'd be very surprised. What happens is we edit and other people post while we edit and the order gets rearranged. It's certainly not ideal. So keep track of your own edits. That will probably be the source of rearrangement.

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.ren
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Apr. 1, 2010 7:50 am

Bushwacker, thanks for the update, I was obviously mistaken, and offer my apology to DRC.

Ren, enlightening, thank you for confirming Bushwaker. I will be more careful with the edit option.

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FoodForAll
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Jan. 18, 2012 8:23 pm

Just for the record, Ren; I spent some time here when the site still had number designations representing sign up order. My sign up number was 23. So I readily acknowledge the demise of the forum over the years which you note. It was indeed magical in the beginning!

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FoodForAll
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Jan. 18, 2012 8:23 pm

I'll try to avoid identifying you by name, FFA -- unless you want to be -- even though I recognized you immediately when I read one of your posts. I believe it's one of the benefits of being an INFP. I seem to be unable to avoid noticing things like that.

Yeah, you Firsters created quite a magical forum. It was fun to run into it in early 2004 after I'd left all that multi cultural social stuff behind in the Bay Area. I think that's where you were at the time, not much more than a couple of miles from where I'd been.

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.ren
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Apr. 1, 2010 7:50 am

Glad to have my role in the great conspiracy demythologized. I have some extra time on my hands before I go back into the buy and move in part of our great transition, so I am checking out a lot of the threads. I also do try to get on the trolls if only to keep them from abusing and confusing others who have real questions.

Foodie, I have tried to help you understand that I can hold more than one idea, even more than one that confllicts with another, at the same time. My line on Obama is that he is not the solution, but also not the problem. Blaming him for being unable to reform the Empire, much less end it, is beside the point as I see it. It is less a defense of Obama than it is about getting the focus where it belongs so we can get something done.

My other interest is in the nature of the pathology. My long-term scholarly study has been in the history of American Religion, particularly the American Century Myth and how it has played out in politics and culture. I did not begin that study thinking that it would be so germane to our future and was looking forward to a sane world where facts mattered. I decided I was in the pathology business when trying to explain what was going on just made me crazy. Seeing it as insanity and addictive and abusive acting out started to make sense.

I do not believe that being correct is nearly enough to change minds. What is wrong with the Right goes much deeper than a few ideas. What makes people buy into their pr goes way beneath the surface of their logic. Helping others understand what we are dealing with, including our own liberal blind spots and illusions, is just sharing my own quest. I have been lucky to be some places others have not, so I cannot expect them to have had my experiences. I try not to get frustrated with the "sheeple" instead of treating them as humans. The abuse of power is what pisses me off.

Some of us have very respectful and profitable conversations about deep material. I learn a lot from those who present ideas rather than preaching, and I know how to preach to reach too. On this site, I do 'moderate' by confronting trolls, but I hope I also encourage inquiry and good humor. There are a lot of people who prefer to avoid conflict, so punching back at bullies helps others have some room, I hope.

I let others do the banning.

If you would like, I would be glad to start over fresh. If you can accept that I am not 'defending Obama,' but am trying to get the conversation off him and onto what I think matters, I hope that can include appreciating that I am with you and Hedges about what the pathology is about. I am also not willing to sacrifice people in the short-term to my emotions, so I go with the Wendell Potter types who can be trenchant critics of (heatlh insurers) and still see that "Obamacare" is better than what we would have without it. It is not what we need, so we keep on pushing.

If people cannot see beyond Obama and the GOPimps, I want to insure that the latter do as little damage as they can while the light dawns or the radicals build something other than a critics' section. There are different strokes for different folks, and I am glad to have the critics doing their thing particularly if they don't just turn everyone else off about everything but their opinions. I would love to have a Left alternative, but it is not there and being there trying to build it did not lead me to people who knew how to get much done. If anyone asks, I can explain why I think Chomsky is right, or why Hedges is for that matter. I am all over the end of the present ag/industrial food system and love real food instead of cult veganism.

I don't really know why you took it so badly to suggest that Obama was not the issue. I will leave that to you, but the only thing I want to avoid on the Left is self-righteous alienation and divisions that keep us from building a movement. When my friends and I disagree, we do so with respect. I can appreciate why Michael Lerner worries about "lesser evil syndrome," but I think it is less dangerous than sibling squabbles while the other side kicks our butts. These Righties are really toxic, and we cannot pretend that there is not a much greater evil ready to get back into the saddle. Obama is not Bush III even if he is the reform Emperor instead of the Messiah President.

The more you can be for instead of against, the more you can attack the pathology instead of the latest symptom and the more you can help us laugh instead of despair, the better we will get along. I have tried to indicate that I do not disagree with your big picture when I complain about a tactic or being lectured to as if you understood who I am. I try to respond to what is posted and to let the person emerge instead of having a set caricature. I may fail and like to be wrong when I mistake a comment for what I imply it to mean.

I am not waiting for Godot. I also don't think we manage big historical change and paradigm shifts so much as move with them. We try to understand what is happening in order to appreciate the surprises too. I try to get my entertainment dollar out of my imperial tax bills and to keep anger and humor in good balance. OK? When I get back to my other obligations I will post a lot less.

I also have a very low geek quotient so if something happens to the software, it sure ain't me doing it.

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DRC
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

DRC writes:

"If you would like, I would be glad to start over fresh. If you can accept that I am not 'defending Obama,' but am trying to get the conversation off him and onto what I think matters, I hope that can include appreciating that I am with you and Hedges about what the pathology is about. I am also not willing to sacrifice people in the short-term to my emotions, so I go with the Wendell Potter types who can be trenchant critics of (heatlh insurers) and still see that "Obamacare" is better than what we would have without it. It is not what we need, so we keep on pushing."

Food replies:

Ok, I am willing to start over. No problem.

That said, I hope you can at least be respectful that other people see the world differently than you do, and each of us responds to what matters to us. There is no universal way of living life as far as I know.

Moreover, I totally disagree with your views on health care as "being better" than what we had previously. One need only look at the details of the plan along with the downsizing of Medicaid and Medicare as a concomitant result from Obama's Health Care plan which shifted priorities from the elderly to the enfranchised; the Bill was a frigging corporate sell out by any progressive standard you can name or identify. I would recommend that you actually follow the progressive critique on the Health Care Bill which has nothing good to say about it; the bill is an attack on elderly people, the poor, and the disenfranchised; nor have I seen a single progressive analysis that defends it and I’ve read hundreds. (I am not referring to people like Rachel Maddow who is owned by the DNC and other people of her ilk.)

On an anecdotal note, my 85 year old mother had always gotten all her medical bills covered less co-pays her entire life until two months ago when she had chest pains, collapsed, and was taken to the Emergency Room and subsequently spent three days in the hospital. Now her bills are coming in to the tune of 12 thousand dollars that are not covered under Obama care. All this for a woman who lives off of less than 1,000.00 per month.

The system may work for people earning 40 thousand to 200 thousand by allowing their adult children to be insured; but for those on the social margins like my mother, it not only does not work it is a fucking catastrophy.

Ren, I am the same type on Myers Briggs and a One on the Ennegram.

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FoodForAll
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Jan. 18, 2012 8:23 pm

I hope we get to sharing some beers like we've talked about since 2004. I trust that one on one we'd have a good long talk to go with it, the way introverts do.

I can't find anything good in Obamacare for me or anybody I know either. It's a complete sell out. He gave it all away before they even got down to negotiations.

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.ren
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Apr. 1, 2010 7:50 am

Likewise Ren. A nice long hike in your bio region would be cool. I am in Sante Fe right now, but who knows, I still move around a lot following my craft. One day, my friend.

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FoodForAll
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Jan. 18, 2012 8:23 pm
Quote FoodForAll:

DRC writes:

"If you would like, I would be glad to start over fresh. If you can accept that I am not 'defending Obama,' but am trying to get the conversation off him and onto what I think matters, I hope that can include appreciating that I am with you and Hedges about what the pathology is about. I am also not willing to sacrifice people in the short-term to my emotions, so I go with the Wendell Potter types who can be trenchant critics of (heatlh insurers) and still see that "Obamacare" is better than what we would have without it. It is not what we need, so we keep on pushing."

Food replies:

Ok, I am willing to start over. No problem.

That said, I hope you can at least be respectful that other people see the world differently than you do, and each of us responds to what matters to us. There is no universal way of living life as far as I know.

Moreover, I totally disagree with your views on health care as "being better" than what we had previously. One need only look at the details of the plan along with the downsizing of Medicaid and Medicare as a concomitant result from Obama's Health Care plan which shifted priorities from the elderly to the enfranchised; the Bill was a frigging corporate sell out by any progressive standard you can name or identify. I would recommend that you actually follow the progressive critique on the Health Care Bill which has nothing good to say about it; the bill is an attack on elderly people, the poor, and the disenfranchised; nor have I seen a single progressive analysis that defends it and I’ve read hundreds. (I am not referring to people like Rachel Maddow who is owned by the DNC and other people of her ilk.)

On an anecdotal note, my 85 year old mother had always gotten all her medical bills covered less co-pays her entire life until two months ago when she had chest pains, collapsed, and was taken to the Emergency Room and subsequently spent three days in the hospital. Now her bills are coming in to the tune of 12 thousand dollars that are not covered under Obama care. All this for a woman who lives off of less than 1,000.00 per month.

The system may work for people earning 40 thousand to 200 thousand by allowing their adult children to be insured; but for those on the social margins like my mother, it not only does not work it is a fucking catastrophy.

Ren, I am the same type on Myers Briggs and a One on the Ennegram.

Your story about your mom pissed me off and I started looking. I honestly haven't found anything that says that Medicare is any worse now than it ever was. I really can't and if you can get me a link I'd really like to see it. It just doesn't make sense to me. This was the best board I could find so far. I hope your mom is ok.

http://www.medicareadvocacy.org/InfoByTopic/Reform/10_10.28.ReformDoesntCutBenefits.htm

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Bush_Wacker
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Jun. 25, 2011 7:53 am

Bushwaker, thanks for the kind words; she is doing fine, but she lives in the suburbs of Detroit. Just one old lady getting screwed like some many more of our elders. I am sure one can find more stories like hers.

Below is a brief sampling taken from CD articles. In the first you will find a report about the downsizing on Medicare and Medicaid: aspects of the New Health Bill. The second article by Chris Hedges who also regards it as a sell out.

If this is something you are interested in, keep a look out on Common Dreams and take a look at the comments following the articles.

Common Dreams represents the most authentic progressive forum you will find in cyberspace in my humble opinion. What you get are details, facts, and top notch analysis not married to the DNC/Democratic propoganda machine. Peace out, bro...

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/12/25-0

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/07/12

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2010/03/29-8

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/07/07-3

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/07/21-12

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/05/11-6

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/03/22-12

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/07/23-15

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/12/21-9

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/02/01-4

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/01/10-6

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/07/05-5

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/08/01-10

chine:

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FoodForAll
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Jan. 18, 2012 8:23 pm

Bushwacker you might find this interesting as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPbJY2rs0QI

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FoodForAll
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Jan. 18, 2012 8:23 pm
Quote FoodForAll:

Likewise Ren. A nice long hike in your bio region would be cool. I am in Sante Fe right now, but who knows, I still move around a lot following my craft. One day, my friend.

Sounds good. I like the Santa Fe bioregion. The art scene's too yuppified for me, but I imagine it works for your craft.

BTW, been a long time since I looked at the Enneagram stuff. I'm somewhere around a 1-4-5 with a 9 wing, according to a test I just took. I may want to be a "reformer" but I don't actually do much about it. Though maybe that's not true considering my "reform" instincts are towards decentralizing and are generally anarchistic in nature. The "new" form I'm always moving towards is anti hierarchy and pro democracy. I'm just self consciously very non violating of others about it. I think of reformers as kind of aggressive types, but that's a stereotype on my part.

I brought up introversion because I have been thinking of Obama's temperament type. I see there's some debate about it by those who think about such things. I think he may be an introverted leader type with weak assertive skills. In another time he might have made a fine president. In a Parliamentary system he'd probably be fine. That's why someone like Don, who tends to favor extroverted strong decision makers, saw him immediately as the wrong type for the presidency, and maybe why he went over the edge about it on this site after Obama was elected, probably what got him banned when they were in their banning phase.

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.ren
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Apr. 1, 2010 7:50 am

Ren,

I did not vote for Obama, so his presidency is hardly a disappointment for me. If Nader does not get in this year, I will be voting for Rocky and the Justice Party. I did not know they banned Don, but his participation was always rather benign so that is surprising to me. Don was one of the originals and as far as my memory goes, he was the only Republican on the site. I got to know him as a friend even though our political views are light years away. I know he had dinner with Usha and Andger in the Netherlands when he traveled there to visit his friend who was dying of cancer. I met Mark in Berkeley and Howard when his band played in Berkley. I know the original group of people has maintained a long friendship since then, some who also participated in the Prophets Conferences in Germany; and with those I’ve had discussion since, have no interest in ever participating on this site again. The original group coalesced around spiritual values, visionary thinking, outside the ‘box’ thinking; they came from the margins, some artisans, some writers, some bodyworkers, philosophers, musicians, bohemians, and a whole lot of people who lived on the edge. I know I’ve collected a new family from that original group. I am closer to Usha than my own brother. So many great memories: Wobbe had the best discussion on music with some racist on classical music that had over 1000 responses if memory serves me. That is when the site was called Renaissance Thinking on The Issues of Our Day. That was before Thom went over to the Dark Side. While I’ve never met Don in person, he has invited to stay at his cabin in North Carolina many times. I also remember some of the best discussions with so many interesting free thinkers ever gathered in one place. in fact back in 2000 at least a third of the people where European so it was always special to get their world view. It is too bad it came to an end.

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FoodForAll
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Jan. 18, 2012 8:23 pm
Quote .ren:He gave it all away before they even got down to negotiations.

No need to negotiate if the end result was what was intended from the start. Wasn't the damn bill pretty much written by the health insurance lobby? There's some saying about foxes and a henhouse.

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Garrett78
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Sep. 3, 2010 9:20 am

FFA,

I used to participate a lot in discussions at Dissident Voice. There was a pretty good amount of outside the box thinking.

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Garrett78
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Sep. 3, 2010 9:20 am

I'm sure you are telling me what I already know all too well for the benefit of others on this site who might be reading this. And of course we are all friends meeting elsewhere, though I've been avoiding Facebook for some time now. Partly because the trolls Don got himself involved with just before he got banned also somehow were able to mine my words from our discussions on that site as well, so I just stopped putting things anywhere until it all died away, which it has, finally. Took about two years. I only recently started posting a little more again here, other than a long discussion with Antifascist and some others that started when the neoliberal global economy's oil greed damaged the Gulf of Mexico.

Nobody not involved with Thom's before the people you talk about left is really going to understand what happened to change all that this site was, once upon a time. Maybe it doesn't matter to anyone but us.

Quote Garrett:

No need to negotiate if the end result was what was intended from the start. Wasn't the damn bill pretty much written by the health insurance lobby? There's some saying about foxes and a henhouse.

Sure looks that way.

And yes, that's the word, Congress critters more or less let the insurance company lobbyists write it, as they supposedly let them write much of our legislation now.

I guess these private tyrannies we call corporations would be the foxes?

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.ren
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Apr. 1, 2010 7:50 am

I tend to bash Obama with a club from time to time in an endeavor to show people that he isn't the Savior they expect him to be. However, he isn't the problem. The political,, economic and ideological structures are the problem. Just like most, Obama is imbedded in all of them. A Savior he isn't. The next pres. and the one after won't be saviors either. regardless of who is elected.

No Pres. can take the road where the majority aren't willing to follow. The nation is too divided. He'd be impeached or trigger civil insurrection.. This Pres. and the next are forced into a balancing act as we spiral into an abyss.. This isn't the united country inherited by FDR.

The people are their own saviors...if they ever get it through their skulls that they have to wake up, see how things actually function, and then come to terms with addressing the dysfunctions. Most sense that something is terribly, terribly wrong. They just can't put their fingers on it. so they rely on worn out platitudes. nonsensical slogans accepted as truths and seek scapegoats.

.Occupy Wall Street is perhaps an awakening from the slumber. Get Educated. Get Active..Get Heard! When the weather warms, there will be plenty of opportunities.to push for change..Be ready for it. Take off your own ideological blinders so you know what you are talking about instead of spewing more nonsense.,

Malcom X grew from being a violent revolutionary wanna be to being a true revolutionary in an evolutionary sense. which is what all true revolutions are about...as was our own. .An evolution into something better,. He took off his own blinders His life was cut short just as he was maturing into that..

Aspire for an evolution..It's time to do that. Our Consitution provides the means to accomplish it...peacefully. and without any disruption in government,.

DRC wrote: I let others do the banning.

poly replies: That's absolutely so. He's never banned anyone though he certainly has the capability of doing it.. He does not edit posts. He has the patience of a dozen saints. I supported his recommendation as a moderator, and have never regretted it.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

,.

polycarp2
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

I think two people asserted that Obama is not the problem. From a big picture perspective that is at least partially true. But that is not the ENTIRE truth. Obama is the president of the United States; thus, the most powerful man on the planet. He is the leader of the Democratic Party. He yields great influence and power in the Party. Prior to the election of 2008, Obama asserted many times via his many marketing schemas/meme’s that he was the MAN to change the system. At the time, it always seemed wildly naïve to me that any man could have changed the corrupt corporate oligarchy. And I noted many times that the system changes the man, not the other way around. Nevertheless, the apologia class always provides half truths on this site against the fact that when Obama was elected president in 2008 the Democrats controlled ALL houses of the legislature: the Senate, the House, the presidency. Despite complete and absolute control of the legislative body, and as a consequence, the best the Democrats could do was produce a FOR PROFIT health Bill monstrosity which assaulted Medicare and Medicaid by downsizing it. If those who are advancing Obama as a victim of the system andnot the problem meme, that represents a half truth. Conversely, is it not hilariously ironic that people in the Republican Party always fall in line to advance their parties agenda. The Office held by Obama is not some weak and disempowered entity subject to the whims of the body politic. The apologia certainly will make that claim so to guide your perspective elsewhere. Ever consider that is their aim?

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FoodForAll
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Jan. 18, 2012 8:23 pm

There's a deeply entrenched marketing program taking place here. Jacques Ellul describes how it works in Propaganda: The Formation of Men's Attitudes. His description is of a process we call in anthropology "enculturation". The context in which this entrenched sociological propaganda program continues to work quite successfully can be objectively perceived as something like a giant machine -- at least that's my root metaphor for this industrial civilization that's encompassed and displaced most other living cultural forms on this planet. It's a machine that has a devastating effect on the living systems of the planet that I liken to a parasitic cancer. A cancer doesn't so much kill a living body as it transforms its life and spirit into raw material. Then we wonder if there even was a spirit and if maybe if there was, did it go somewhere?

One of the on-going memes of this cultural parasite is the prominence and valuing of property-based private tyrannies. Those private tyrannies are organized so as to maximize certain sociological myths in ways that confirm the purpose they serve while validating the illusory beliefs in individuality and independence that people call upon while they are herded into careers and or professions as if on their own volition, and thus they move to and from the work that this parasitic machine is doing to the planet -- a living planet that they come to see as their resource to plunder at will, and to which they have long since lost any connection that might be deemed intimate.

Part of that private tyranny meme which people accept and live with every day is the belief in the need for a strong parental leader at the top of these authoritarian power hierarchies -- the type of hierarchy of which all tyrannies are composed. Obama was marketed as that leader, and to those who haven't deconstructed what that actually is in this giant system of linked parasitic machines, he may indeed seem to be the problem. It's a world view issue and it's a view confirmed by certain beliefs, and especially by attitudes.

But staying with that strong leader type problem as THE problem takes energy, valuable energy. Energy that could be put to use dealing with the broader, deeper, more pervasive system that everyone participates in every day. It's kind of like a ritual of inversion where people will focus their energies on the thing that is least important. Thus it's kind of an illusion, a spectacle, and Presidential elections are as such an extended form of ritual inversion based on spectacle and illusions. It's like the Super Bowl of Advertising. Furthermore it only enables the propagandists in their work to maintain this inverted totalitarian system by reifying the popular belief in authoritarian power among those who accept their role as subjects, I think attitudinally such people have not advanced all far from the attitudes of serfs, despite all this access to free thinking opportunities all around us that are available to anyone.

Let Your Life Be a Friction to Stop the Machine

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.ren
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Apr. 1, 2010 7:50 am

You expected that maybe Dems would step outside of current political, economic and ideological structures and legislate a ten page universal health care bill like Canada did instead of the 2,000 page monstrosity to feed private health firms? Institutionalized corruption is a part of the problem, isn't it?

I've done my share of denouncing Obama for not using the Office of the President as a megaphone for his gift of rhetoric...and for not educating the American peope as FDR did..

I didn't vote for Obama. I voted Green Party. I won't vote for him in the next election, I'll probably vote for the fella from Utah if he's on the Colorado ballot.it. If he wins, he won't save my fanny either....or yours.

When a critical mass of Americans finally understand how the dysfuntional system works, and what has to be done to fix it...there will be change for the better. Not until then

Congress Critters, just like presidents and the majority are still deeply imbedded in our shared political and economic ideologies.. It isn't likely they'll step outside of them until the need to do so becomes critical..Even then, most societies have chosen collapse and disintegration over change.

My own fear is that people won't understand just how critical the need for change is until the merging of economic, resource and environmental collapse...right around the corner..In the short term, they may be prone to rely on a demigod to fix things that can't be fixed within current structures.

The political and economic structures themselves have to be changed. That includes, as David Korten suggests, letting Wall Street fail. and even taxing it into non-existence if need be. Not likely..It's part of our sacred ideological cow. Periodic meltdowns are still preferable at this point in time..

Does even the Justice Party candidate get that governments can simply spend money into existence to utilize idle productive capacity instead of borrowing money into existence...without generating inflation? Or does he wear the ideological blindfold handed to him by banking more than a century ago?

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

.

polycarp2
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Thanks for the link, Ren. Brilliant and moving. About 8 minutes in, there's mention of the loss of thousands of American lives but no mention of the loss of Iraqi or Afghan life. My only complaint, and a rather nitpicky one as the video does make multiple mentions to the loss of life around the globe.

2 myths I see at work in recent posts in this thread are as follows:

1) POTUS is the "most powerful person in the world," as opposed to a high profile cog in the machine.

2) There were glory days, or good times, in the age of US Empire. We (presumably all who live in the US) need to and are capable of returning to those days.

Both myths are US-centric and contribute to the overarching myth of American Exceptionalism.

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Garrett78
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Sep. 3, 2010 9:20 am
Quote Garrett:

About 8 minutes in, there's mention of the loss of thousands of American lives but no mention of the loss of Iraqi or Afghan life. My only complaint, and a rather nitpicky one as the video does make multiple mentions to the loss of life around the globe.

A valid one, though.

I think we all have moments when we slip from our deeper focus into old patterns of thought that somehow emerge in a kind of iconography of clichés, which are those special signs any serious writer always keeps a lookout for when they write. Editing is so crucial, it's not about correction but more about going down the rabbit hole into the Wonderland of our mind. These clichéd thoughts may simply be old brain patterns that we may have transcended, but in their momentary re-emergence they also show us how deeply we have been programmed. Good to remember that if one is the vigilant type.

When speaking to a specifically American audience we have these problems of recognizing what the audience is capable of seeing. Deconstructing our national clichés will put some people to sleep, and it certainly will lengthen the message -- another problem for short term attention spans. I felt another point where the narrative quite doesn't live up to its promise is in linking global neoliberalism it touches on, but without the name, to something much more pervasive than the U.S. Empire itself, even though it is the most hegemonic force on the planet at the moment. I believe it's deeper than "predatory tyrannical Capitalism", but I also have come to believe there's possibly an almost unavoidable difficulty in linguistic-related imagination involved in getting to it, but I'm not quite sure how I can characterize it in any way that can be generally understood. So I fail, too.

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.ren
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Apr. 1, 2010 7:50 am

With real appreciation for what has been shared, let me admit that not being part of the cherished past is typical of what it has meant to be "the new guy" who grew up moving every few years and having to become part of a new school and neighborhood in the process. Even when we came back to my old home town, things had taken place while I was away, so I was never "in with the in crowd."

The up side was that I kept meeting others who were on the fringe rather than the most popular and did not have the burden of being voted "most likely to succeed" or part of the royal prom court. I did know Thom "before he went over to the dark side," but I doubt that he really changed as much as his place as the one who brought together this group of friends to them moved on. Of course I wish we could welcome back those who were not the company of trolls because I like the diversity and learn from it. I refer to my own perverse interest in the perverse and the recognition that persuasion is far more than being correct in the debate.

Intellectually, I think I have matched the radicals for a long time in grasping the deep structural and and narrative issues of America. Instead of leaving my past and tradition behind, I went inside and found myself getting outside what they had become, a kind of back to the future combined with being on the 'cutting edge' and radical fringe. A professional cleric able to call bs on the traditionalists because they do not know their tradition, but also a jazz playing flutist at home with free improvisation.

I lucked into being in some great places and had people help me work through the racist and homophobic stuff that comes with culture; but this includes seeing the traditional institutions at their best even if that was something in the process of being lost in the death of the liberal class. My uncle was a loyalty oath protester on the faculty of UCBerkeley, then won and taught at UCLA. Models of White Liberals who were early NAACP and ACLU in LA and did not go Red Scare into the Cold War. What kind of sibling issues led my dad into being a Navy Chaplain and Moderate Republican remain a mystery; but our tensions included my inheriting both sides of this family tradition.

Being in Berzerkely during the second half of Free Speech and Anti War protests also meant reconstituting what education was about in 69-72. Somehow, a group of us was able to do more than shut down our school and found a few teachers who let us learn something with them. Liberation Theology, praxis, Alinsky and a critical take on the American Century narrative as well as revolutionary music, weed and protests without becoming victims of police violence. Had my best job every washing dishes for Alice Waters where local, fresh, regional, seasonal got its start in American cuisine. Real good food instead of dogma. Everybody there was treated as a human being even thought giant egos were not hard to find.

I got another education working as a campus minister. Learned about Faith Development as intellectual and moral integrity. Not schooling, but vocational discovery and question authority. Got to play at the bottom of the power towers and gnaw at their roots at Stanford. Learned about homophobia with the Presbyterian Task Force in 76. Played in an all Black band, well they said so and knew a lot more about Black than I, so it must be true in the 80's in Indianapolis.

I have had very special opportunities to look deeper or around the edges of what is normal and accepted for almost all the people I find in the normal course of life. I have been lucky in love with a long-time mate. I have learned from the uneducated and the educated, have no illusions about how fast or easy change is, and try to honor the love and grace given by neither compromising nor acting out in frustration.

Being heard or seen as one intends is, in my experience, unlikely to happen. Am I doing what I intend? That is always worth reflection. When I offend, is it something I need to own or is it the fault of the offended? It is much easier to blame them. What I know for sure is that whatever will work and be worthwhile will take a lot of us doing our own thing together. What binds us is an embraced humanity, not our ideas or dogmas. But ideas matter, and believing in nothing does not work.

I sure wish others had understood what I learned about peace and justice. We could have skipped the Reagan Revolution and Religious Right and moved straight into the Land of Peace and Plenty to which I pledged my allegiance. I did not start out to be a cultural pathologist, and would love the Great Awakening to have happened back several decades. But, the great temptations are always to engineer the changes and to bring in the Golden Age before "its time." Why? I don't know. It would make sense for peace and love to be in every mind and heart. There is nothing in the myths of the pathology that does anyone any good. But here we are anyway, so let's try to be part of the healing instead of the sickness. Widen the circle as much as we can, because we will draw it too tightly at best. Gratefully yours....

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DRC
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