Ron Paul takes money from racists

128 posts / 0 new

We were having a debate about Paul being a racist. Well, it turns out he even takes a bit of money from them.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/27/ron-paul-white-supremacists_n_1...

Dr. Econ's picture
Dr. Econ
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Comments

I can't believe there is gambling going on here! Next you will tell me the GOP represents the wealthy...

Phaedrus76's picture
Phaedrus76
Joined:
Sep. 14, 2010 7:21 pm

All my childhood illusions in one swell foop!

DRC's picture
DRC
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

The Southern Poverty Law Center is misnamed. Rather than focusing on providing legal aid to those who live in poverty the organization is actually an extremist leftwing group that pushes an anti-Constitutional, pro-socialist philosophy and monitors so-called rightwing hate groups.

It just so happens that anyone, anywhere who stands firmly for the political philososphy of our Founders, honors and defends the U.S. Constitution as the final rule of law in the land, and fights against attempts by radical extremists to fundamentally change America from a free, capitalistic society to a Marxist one, is automatically labeled as a dangerous extremist hate-group or individual.

Puffington Host is nothing more than a schizophrenic left-wing tabloid as trashy a Maxim.

Lets talk about Obama's "real and actual" association with Bill Ayers and the Weather Underground, and Rev Wright and his Trinity United Church's extreme anti-American rant the wwas covered up by the corproate owned and controlled leftist media as l;ong as possible. The first story with excerpts from a Wright Sermon did not air until two weeks later, on NBC until March 13. By that time, 42 states had already voted in their primaries.

Yeah, Ron Paul is a real racist. Anybody seen his white robe and cone hat?

bullwinkle
Joined:
Dec. 28, 2011 1:31 pm

Pathetic smears and distortions bullshitter.

Rev. Jeremiah Wright is a first-class professional who ran a very respectable and reconciling inter-racial urban church and preached biblically based sermons. Black Liberation theology is christologically sound and when I compare it with the crap on the Right and the sentimentalized God slush in the current Mainline, I weep with Jesus.

I don't care if RP is personally a racist, but he sure pals around with them. Stick that up your Ayers.

You quote racist crap. Does that make you one or not? How could I tell if you were not?

DRC's picture
DRC
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

This is a quote James Cone used in describing his black liberation theology-""Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community ... Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love." - "Divine Racism: The Unacknowledged Threshold Issue for Black Theology", in African-American Religious Thought: An Anthology, by William R Jones, ed Cornel West and Eddie Glaube (Westminster John Knox Press)."

This interpretation perverts the love of all men that Christ taught, the peace, the forgiveness, and inner, spiritual focus of Christ and His atonement, which teaches us that the change His atonement brings within us heals us spiritually, creating a new man fashioned after Christ who teaches by example, love, and long suffering.

Cone again-"Black hatred is the black man's strong aversion to white society. No black man living in white America can escape it... While it is true that blacks do hate whites, black hatred is not racism. "

Black liberation theology changes Christ, the God of peace and love, into a God of their own construction, a God of hate and revenge, who is hell bent on political and social change at any cost and who supports that hate and "revenge" to suit their needs.

This theology, black liberation theology, is a blatant attempt to mix and wrest and perevert Christianity into a construct for the age old battle against individual rights. It is a Marxist ideological, collective, class-struggle, and ultimately tyranical construct committed to destroying individual freedom.

Same as Farrakhan"s bullshit,

Understanding that black liberation theology is Marxism dressed up to look like Christianity helps explain why there is no conflict between Cone's "Christianity" [i.e. reverend Wright and Farrakhan's "Nation of Islam." They are two prophets in the same philosophical (Marxist) pod, merely using different religions as backdrops for their black-power aims. - The American Thinker, May 2008.

No, DRC, I am NOT a racist! My closest and best friend happens to be black (his wife is a doctor) and he does not beleive in this "CRAP" either!

The only people Jesus EVER spoke against were the HYPOCRITS.

bullwinkle
Joined:
Dec. 28, 2011 1:31 pm

I guess we're not talking about Ron Paul and the racists he takes money from any more.

I have never attended a church that practices Liberation Theology, so I don't know what they preach. I read the Wikipedia article on it and nothing of the sort of stuff that this James Cone fellow talks about was mentioned. I know that there are some pretty goofy narratives around about birtherism, creationism, Von Misesism, Socialism and hundreds of other isms. It's enough to make a fellow dizzy. Maybe if I heard an opinion from somebody who thinks Liberation Theology is a good thing, I might have a better idea what I should believe. The Wikipedia article made it sound pretty good to me.

It sounds like this Pope Benedict guy doesn't like Liberation Theology folks because they don't like the top-down authoritarian type of religion. I'm not too keen on it myself.

Art's picture
Art
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Had the bull gone to seminary and studied enough, he would recognize the parallel to Biblical language about the oppressers of the Jews. Hating the false gods is part of loving the true one. The "White" here is about the oppressive construct of racism where White is the Lie. Black affirmation of being is about not buying into that oppressive 'religion.' I share James Cone's understanding of why "White" Christianity is wrong. Mine own is with the "special option for the poor" based in everything the Bible is about. Jesus was one fine liberation theologian too.

If you think the God of the Bible, OT or NT, approves the Santorum crap, you have not read it. If you think the comfortable pew personalism of a God who allows you to ignore the world around you will get you into heaven, too bad.

I am waiting to get James Cone's THE CROSS AND THE LYNCHING TREE on Chris Hedges recommendation for current reading.

The former head of the Inquisiton, the Ratzinger, is the new conservative Pope. Liberation Theology has been their enemy for a couple of decades, but it is the only thing that brings any integrity to modern Catholicism.

DRC's picture
DRC
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

http://www.nolanchart.com/article1134-naacp-president-ron-paul-is-not-a-racist.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57354591-503544/ron-paul-says-he-is-not-racist-slams-drug-laws-as-unfair-to-blacks/

bullwinkle
Joined:
Dec. 28, 2011 1:31 pm

Don't insult the Southern Poverty Law Center and claim to be an enemy of racism. They take the pulse of hate groups and do the research in the field few would dare to. RP still hangs out with Republican Presidential candidates and does not use that platform to call them on their racist dog whistles. If he does not share their views, he does not call them out when they play Southern Stratego.

DRC's picture
DRC
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Dude, he's a politician. That means he will take money from anyone. Hell, I'm not a racist but I'll take money from them if given the chance. I'd rather take money out of their pockets than that of a friend. :)

Bush_Wacker's picture
Bush_Wacker
Joined:
Jun. 25, 2011 6:53 am

Yeah, BW. But he is the cult leader for people on the Right who cannot admit that they have been Left Behind.

DRC's picture
DRC
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

The SPLC is a fucking hypocritical left-wing group that employees the same evil tactics of hate, race-baiting and bigotry that they hypocritically "oppose". They are known for their association and advising of American hating groups , especially communists. Yes , they espouse tolerance ,equality and justice,while in reality practice those same vices. They practice what they preach against.

http://www.thesocialcontract.com/artman2/publish/tsc_20_3/tsc_20_3_woodruff.shtml

As nietzsche said, " All idealists imagine that the causes they serve are significantly better than the other causes in the world; they do not want to believe that if their cause is to flourish at all, it needs exactly the same foul-smelling manure that all other human undertakings require.

The least ambiguous sign of a disdain for people is this: that one tolerates everyone else only as a means to his end, or not at all.

bullwinkle
Joined:
Dec. 28, 2011 1:31 pm
Quote DRC:

Had the bull gone to seminary and studied enough, he would recognize the parallel to Biblical language about the oppressers of the Jews. Hating the false gods is part of loving the true one. The "White" here is about the oppressive construct of racism where White is the Lie. Black affirmation of being is about not buying into that oppressive 'religion.' I share James Cone's understanding of why "White" Christianity is wrong. Mine own is with the "special option for the poor" based in everything the Bible is about. Jesus was one fine liberation theologian too.

If you think the God of the Bible, OT or NT, approves the Santorum crap, you have not read it. If you think the comfortable pew personalism of a God who allows you to ignore the world around you will get you into heaven, too bad.

I am waiting to get James Cone's THE CROSS AND THE LYNCHING TREE on Chris Hedges recommendation for current reading.

The former head of the Inquisiton, the Ratzinger, is the new conservative Pope. Liberation Theology has been their enemy for a couple of decades, but it is the only thing that brings any integrity to modern Catholicism.

I never went to seminary but the parallel is obvious. I think many southern white American christians have a problem with where that puts them in the biblical metaphor. Funny how slavery was no problem for them for so long, while they simultaneously imagined themselves to be the real victims of worldwide christian persecution and Northern federalism. Meanwhile, they opressed and ignored the poorest members of their own community. Sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees and the racists in the church for all the white sheets.

D_NATURED's picture
D_NATURED
Joined:
Oct. 20, 2010 7:47 pm
Quote bullwinkle:The Southern Poverty Law Center is misnamed.

Are you saying Paul does not take money from racists or not?

Dr. Econ's picture
Dr. Econ
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote bullwinkle:...This is a quote James Cone used in describing his black liberation theology-

Whose James Cone, and why do we care?

Dr. Econ's picture
Dr. Econ
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

http://www.talkweather.com/forums/index.php?/topic/46236-connect-the-dots-obama-%26lt%3B-wright-%26lt%3B-james-cone/

Check him out, if you care.

A close scrutiny of Obamy's campaign contributors would most likely reveal some shaky donors. But he gets a pass from the corporate owned and controlled MSM. Jeff Imelt and GE come to mind for starters.

A3P claims to be niether left or right, dem or repub, conservative or liberal. It embraces a platform of identity, sovereignty and liberty. Offering political solutions not found in the democrat, republican, or teaparties. Does the promotion and preservation of the culture and traditions of white people constitute racism? Yes.

The principle of organizing upon and promoting one race and one race only and which also condemn others for their racial differences , based upon the assumption that their racial differences represent “opposition” to the one race being advocated , is racism.

The NAACP and La Raza are also racist organizations. Though addressing ethnicities in reality, the principles of La Raza are the same as those of the NAACP and both are engaged in racialism and racialist promotions of ethnic and racial separatism. According to the NAACP and La Raza, citizens who oppose what they conclude are political disasters and wrongs is “racist”. If you disagree with Obamy’s deplorable politics, you are “racist” according to these racist and ethnic-supremacy groups; these organizations claim that their racism and ethnic supremacists assumptions are not the problem, but, rather, that American taxpayers are the problem.

Doc-"Are you saying Paul does not take money from racists or not?"

Not saying he doesn't. But no one can say Obamy doesn't either. Nor do I think that Paul could be indicted for the groups he has associated with in the past, unlike Obamy.

bullwinkle
Joined:
Dec. 28, 2011 1:31 pm

http://reclaimourrepublic.wordpress.com/2012/02/04/timeline-of-barack-hussein-obamas-involvement-radical-groups-and-friends/

Why is he given a pass? Yet,. Ron Paul gets a few bucks from a couple of people associated with an organization that has been labeled as racist by the racist SPLC and he is convicted. Bullshit!

bullwinkle
Joined:
Dec. 28, 2011 1:31 pm

La Raza and the NAACP exist to prevent terrorists from murdering people with brown skin and to promote education. None of the White Power groups do these things, because these are not issues white skinned people have faced, historically.

Using the term Obamy when defending Ron Paul from charges of racism seems to be a waste of time... And Obamy was the best you can come up with?

Phaedrus76's picture
Phaedrus76
Joined:
Sep. 14, 2010 7:21 pm

Thanks Phaedrus, "Obamy" is so effin' racist it makes me want to puke.

Dr. Econ, James Cone is one of the few current theologians worth reading. Chris Hedges recommended his THE CROSS AND THE LYNCHING TREE, and I can't wait to get into it. I think Liberation theology is missing in current American religion to our shame and domestication. John Domminic Crossan also has some great biblical scholarship on Jesus as a revolutionary that rocks all the Rightwing and Lamestream crap.

We barely have the equivalent of the German "Confessing Church" that worked against Hitler while our Empire wraps itself in the cross and flag. There is no Reinhold Niebuhr out there either. The moral responsibility of bearing power, even as mere voters in this empire, has not been on the lips of preachers in American churches. There was Jeremiah Wright, but look how he was treated for speaking Truth to Power.

DRC's picture
DRC
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Uh, are you sure about that? This quote is taken out of context. Your comments lead me to believe that you are not intimately aware of the horrors of being a non-1% Black in America, and therefore this type of comment is certainly one to get up the ire. First of all, to argue religion is truly a waste of time and the great intellect that God gave us. Faith, on the other hand has been given in each man - I use man as mankind in the classical manner I'm told - and that is evident through the fruit, or work, of an individual or group of like minded people. The remarks are valid for the community, and as much as white Americans feel we are not racist, it is so much a part of our indoctrination that we aren't the ones who can determine that. And certainly this President has challenged every person not of color in these United States. I can only ask you to see if you can make the jump from the fear that such information immediately instills in a white consciousness and look at it this way; God don't change tires, but he sure gave you everything you need to figure out how to do it for yourself. Some people are still trying to figure out what's God's job and what's theirs. And that's really a good thing!

jdadam's picture
jdadam
Joined:
Jun. 3, 2011 11:53 am

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. Martin Luther King, 1963.

How is any organization, that uses the color of someone's skin as justification for their existance, addressing anything about character, DRC? Would not a color blind society be better? Any organization that is based on the color of one's skin is RACIST!

Why did Obamy choose his black half over his white half? Could it be that he is more black and could use that to his advantage. That makes him a racist, imo.

Sarcasm intended!

bullwinkle
Joined:
Dec. 28, 2011 1:31 pm

What date can I circle on my calendar when Mitt Romney will clinch the delegates needed to win the GOP nomination and I never have to hear or read about Ron Paul again?

chilidog
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote Phaedrus76:

La Raza and the NAACP exist to prevent terrorists from murdering people with brown skin

Exaggerate much?

chilidog
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote bullwinkle:

http://www.talkweather.com/forums/index.php?/topic/46236-connect-the-dots-obama-%26lt%3B-wright-%26lt%3B-james-cone/

Check him out, if you care.

So you are saying that James Cone is a racist who gives money to Obama? What does that have to do with Paul getting money racists?

If you seriously want to debate about Obama being a racist, well, fine. But you are going to have to better than an out of context quote written by a pissed off black man. If you think anything you quoted by Kone or anyone who gives money to Obama says something racist, why don't you quote it, and then say why it is racist.

Quote bullwinkle:The NAACP and La Raza are also racist organizations. Though addressing ethnicities in reality, the principles of La Raza are the same as those of the NAACP and both are engaged in racialism and racialist promotions of ethnic and racial separatism. According to the NAACP and La Raza, citizens who oppose what they conclude are political disasters and wrongs is “racist”. If you disagree with Obamy’s deplorable politics, you are “racist” according to these racist and ethnic-supremacy groups; these organizations claim that their racism and ethnic supremacists assumptions are not the problem, but, rather, that American taxpayers are the problem.

That's a ridiculous statement. Can you prove any of it, or at least show me what you mean?

Dr. Econ's picture
Dr. Econ
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote bullwinkle:

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. Martin Luther King, 1963.

Really? Haven't heard that one in at least a month.

So if a theif steals a dollar from me, I can't get it back, because I am now supposed to be 'colorblind'?

There's a difference between being colorblind and just being blind.

-Dr. Econ.

Dr. Econ's picture
Dr. Econ
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. Martin Luther King, 1963.

How is any organization, that uses the color of someone's skin as justification for their existance, addressing anything about character, DRC? Would not a color blind society be better? Any organization that is based on the color of one's skin is RACIST!

That is my point! Answer the question. Using race instead of character is to want to continue the rift and not end it. Or in the case of the hypocrits here, continually being an apologist for being white, the issue race will always be an excuse. And how does that address character?

Totally missed the point, Doc.

bullwinkle
Joined:
Dec. 28, 2011 1:31 pm
Quote bullwinkle:

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. Martin Luther King, 1963.

How is any organization, that uses the color of someone's skin as justification for their existance, addressing anything about character, DRC? Would not a color blind society be better? Any organization that is based on the color of one's skin is RACIST!

That is my point! Answer the question. Using race instead of character is to want to continue the rift and not end it. Or in the case of the hypocrits here, continually being an apologist for being white, the issue race will always be an excuse. And how does that address character?

Totally missed the point, Doc.

For thousands of years people of color have had to deal with racism of the worst kind and now that the world is calling the racists out on it they say "fine, let's pretend that there isn't any difference in people's color". That's pathetic. There are different colors of people in the world and everyone should be proud of their own. There's a difference between celebrating your own skin and hating someone else's skin. Racism is really about the color of one's heart, not another's skin.

Bush_Wacker's picture
Bush_Wacker
Joined:
Jun. 25, 2011 6:53 am

As Edwin Locke said,"You cannot solve racism with more racism. Singling out one group for special favors (through affirmative action) ignores the fact that people are individuals — not interchangeable ciphers in an amorphous collective.'

Racial thinking focuses on the collective and ignores the individual.

bullwinkle
Joined:
Dec. 28, 2011 1:31 pm

Right BW. Which means we do not have to be forever apologetic for biased and prejudiced attitudes of the past. Liberals advocate the abolishment of all individual rights to majority rule, yet pretend to be defenders of the rights of minorities. But in reality the smallest of minorities is the individual. In claiming to be defenders of minority rights they cannot deny individual rights. This accumulation of contrdictions and short-sighted pragmatism, along with their cynical contempt for principles with outrageous irrationality in today's political climate has only heightened the demands of black leaders.

Locke also said this," The traditional solution to the problem of racism is color-blindness, or, from the other side of that coin, individual awareness."

Do not get racism mixed up with bigotry and prejudice.

bullwinkle
Joined:
Dec. 28, 2011 1:31 pm
Quote bullwinkle:As Edwin Locke said,"You cannot solve racism with more racism. Singling out one group for special favors (through affirmative action) ignores the fact that people are individuals — not interchangeable ciphers in an amorphous collective.'

Right. So let's just ignore it and keep our society segregated, with minorities getting paid less and having less opportunity.

I don't know what is wrong with that idea.

Dr. Econ's picture
Dr. Econ
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote bullwinkle: Right BW. Which means we do not have to be forever apologetic for biased and prejudiced attitudes of the past.

Exactly. Ignore the past. It has nothing to do with the present.

Quote bullwinkle: Liberals advocate the abolishment of all individual rights to majority rule, yet pretend to be defenders of the rights of minorities.

Just because I don't want the car to go 100 miles an hour does not mean I want it to go 25 miles an hour. In other words, I debate issues, look at the costs and bennefits, and try to come up with solutions.

Sorry if you think the world is that black and white.

Dr. Econ's picture
Dr. Econ
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Bullshit Doc, the highest office in the US is now occupied by a black man, put there by white voters.

If you think that is still the case then you have totally missed my point.

bullwinkle
Joined:
Dec. 28, 2011 1:31 pm
Quote chilidog:
Quote Phaedrus76:

La Raza and the NAACP exist to prevent terrorists from murdering people with brown skin

Exaggerate much?

Uh, the KKK is what? A terrorist organization, who's goals were to use violence and arson to eliminate, exterminate and oppress balcks in the South, and in Texas and the West Hispanics, and later they included Catholics and Jews.

Would the NAACP or La Raza had a reason to exist in the absence of 5000 black men lynched, and 60,000 Hispanics murdered in the Southwest in the century prior to the passage of the Civil Rights Act? Is there a major Mongollian Rights organization, or a well known Flemish Rights outfit?

Phaedrus76's picture
Phaedrus76
Joined:
Sep. 14, 2010 7:21 pm

Bullwinkle, the 'colorblind' rhetoric comes from people who are, at best, dry drunks of racism. If they think not being racist is just not seeing color anymore, I suggest they are just 'colorblind' and miss all the racism around them maybe wishing it away like a bad dream.

Only, we have seen a level of irrational hatred and dog whistling from the heirs of the Southern Strategy instead of real attempts to understand why those who oppose White Superiority have to continue to battle against the nonsense of 'reverse discrimination' and 'benign neglect.'

The essential point about racism is that it is a problem of Whiteness, not Blackness. I am a European-American by ethnic heritage, and I try to shed all the vestiges of my White cultural imprint while I hope to help others become aware of their own need to do the same. I understand why my ethnic heritage and pale complexion allows me to "pass" for White where people of color experience a different America than I. I learned a lot about that by being 'adopted' as Black by my bandmates in Indianapolis where they treated me as truly blind to color and convinced other Black Naptowners that I was also Black.

The big difference came when I was among White people who did not know that I was not one of them. They would say things that were either ugly or remarkably ignorant of what their Black fellow citizens experienced and understood to be true. If police saw me with my Black friends, I caught a lot of crap for betraying my race. I don't want to bore you with all the anecdotal evidence of my personal experience, but rest assured, White people had no idea what the real world was like there.

As I have watched Republican politicians act out in objectively racist behavior time and again, as I hear Gingrich pull the "food stamp President" dogwhistle and Rich Parody act as if N__head was of no significance, I know we are far from that place where race no longer matters. It won't be until White people give up their blinders and appreciate why People of Color still need to assert their human equality against a culture of blindness and bigotry. The Tea Party is largely about the feeling of loss for White privilege. They may feel the loss more acutely and without actual consciousness of their racism, but they are not embracing the end of racism and the wonderful new world of equality.

It is akin to men thinking they treat women as equals without having any sense of their own patriarchal attitudes. Self awareness is what is missing, not just some dream that women can be as good as men. Men should become as good as women to get the point better. How does that feel?

Barak Obama's election may have been partly about White folks trying to feel good about voting for a Black man. I think he was immensely more qualified than the McCain/Palin disaster. Obama is also the product of a mixed marriage who was raised in Middle Class America and who achieved in traditionally White academia without any militant blackness. His discovery of being treated differently because of his skin color surprised him in Hawaii and at Punahoe. In that sense, he did not grow up "Black" surrounded by Black culture. His affirmation of his "blackness" is to his credit because he could have been an Oreo who fit in well with the Country Club or the Power Elite. Instead, he went to Chicago and Blackness. Even if it is upper class Black and not ghetto Black.

A lot of Black folk have wondered when "their" Black President will deliver anything to their constituency other than the image of a safe Black Man in the White House. But, they still appreciate his story and achievement as a step forward for all of them. What is wrong with that?

One of the reasons Obama has had to be very moderate, never angry, and always polite and bipartisan is that racism has raised the hatemeter and death threats to unprecedented highs. The Blind White Boys of Alabama acted out in the hearings for Sonia Sotomayor and have rejected many qualified black nominees just to make the point about who is still the Massa. I wish you would direct your hopes for a post-racist America against those who continue to think they have an entitlement because of their skin color or religion.

Listen and learn. Please do not lecture me on racism. I have had much better teachers than you can ever be, and their grace and inclusion of my humanity is something I feel with love and humble gratitude. May you also know such grace.

DRC's picture
DRC
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote bullwinkle:

Bullshit Doc, the highest office in the US is now occupied by a black man, put there by white voters.

If you think that is still the case then you have totally missed my point.

How on earth can anyone get your point if you don't make any?

You made a broad, non-falsifiable point about liberals want to 'abolish' individual rights yet say they want to protect minority rights. Of course. We don't want minorities to be able to offer their labor at less than the minimum wage. We do want minorities to not be subject to business owners to segregate them in places of public business. If you can't handle why these things are different, I am not sure what to say. As I said, the world is not black and white.

Further, to assume that racism doesn't exist because Obama is president is simply a ridiculous statement to make. We measure racism by gaps in income, education, services, measures of status, and whole hosts of other variables.

Dr. Econ's picture
Dr. Econ
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Answer the question, apologist! I am NOT lecturing you!

How is any organization, that uses the color of someone's skin as justification for their existance, addressing anything about character, DRC? Would not a color blind society be better? Any organization that is based soley on the color of one's skin is RACIST! Be they black, white, brown whatever,don't lecture me.

Why are you ignoring what MLK said?

The president of AmeriKKKa is black. If the racism that America is "all about" is the kind that allows a black man to become president, then I'm afraid the nature of this "all about" is too abstract for me to follow, and I'll bet most Americans feel similarly. It's time to change the discussion.

Acts of racism should certainly be condemned. However, the gesture of claiming that each act should "remind us" of the dirty secret of what America is "still all about" now qualifies as a superstition, like hanging garlic in a doorway. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have made their livings at this. The influence that thesed two have on black people has long been overrated.

People need to break the habit of supposing it is our moral duty to keep racism front and center in discussions about how to help disadvantaged black people. Because that is all it is today, a habit. The belief that when it come to racism, that black problems must always, somehow, and no matter how counterintuitive it seems are due to something whitey must be responsible for has long been suspended by rational people.

It would be a tragedy if any more than a few professional hotheads took this as an opportunity to continue obsessing over racism, rather than conceiving of ways to help the poor. Many suppose the two are the same, and that is an outdated idea.

Insisting that racism is the most urgent problem--or even one of colored peoples most urgent problems--is no longer worthy of serious consideration. Only for those that want to continue teasing out eh role of "racism".

Answer the question--Why is the color of one's skin more important than the "content of their character" when judging someone?

bullwinkle
Joined:
Dec. 28, 2011 1:31 pm

John Locke born 1632, died 1704. A foundational philosopher who built on the evolution of human conciousness for his time, and a foundation for continued evolutionary thinking through now. You once again have taken a comment out of the context of it's time and place. Locke was a brilliant thinker for the knowledge that was available to him.....he took it further, now I ask you to do the same. It's called building character!

jdadam's picture
jdadam
Joined:
Jun. 3, 2011 11:53 am

Calm down, take a look in the mirror, breathe, and then think. White is a Lie about being superior to those who are not White. It has been in Power, and has had the power to define people who are not White into second class humanity. It has been Established to the point of cultural imprint and habit. It is my responsibility to shed my Whiteness and to regard the humanity of others by character and being rather than skin color. I think I do that about as well as anyone of pale complexion, and the test of that is not my belief in my color-blindness, it is the acceptance I have received from people who have had to live with the Lie in their face and up their butts for their whole lives.

I am humble and grateful for that acceptance. For those who just could not be in the same room with a person of my skin color and could not embrace me as one of them, I feel sorrow for their pain and injury from Whiteness, but I do not judge them for bearing those scars and wounds or for not being able to identify with me. Maybe someday it will be better.

I feel the same gratitude toward feminist women who work against patriarchy. If they can see me as a man who gets it and with whom they do not have to do all the transcendence, I am glad. If they can only see me as male, maybe a better than average male, but a male still, it is not their fault. My male brothers have not exactly given them reason to believe. I will never claim to know what it is like to be a woman and to contend with patriarchy from their gender perspective.

Same thing with gay and lesbian people. They may welcome my progressive inclusion and strong stands against heterosexism, but neither of us chose to be who we are and only they had to bear the personal and existential reality of being gay or lesbian in a homophobic, heterosexist world.

When my black friends convinced other black people that I was black, I enjoyed their joke. I felt a deep affirmation because they know a lot more about being black than I ever will. It went beyond being their white friend, but I cannot know what it is like to deal with White from the outside. I can only learn from them and appreciate how blind I find so many of my light-complexion fellow human beings to their continuing Whiteness. Someday, this too may pass, but it has not passed yet.

I support women's colleges because they allow women to learn without the boys screwing it up. I do not support separate male colleges because power clubs need to be taken down so their members can connect with the humanity of people who do not share their entitlements. I do not support all White clubs, but if black people want to be together where they can escape Whiteness, I can understand. It is as simple as knowing that those who cause the problem have a different need than those who are victims of the problem. In my experience, the people in the latter world are far more ready to meet and greet those who act as real human beings than those in the former.

Organizations that affirm the full humanity of the stigmatized and disparaged have a legitimate role not there for those who seek to affirm their privilege and special status. La Raza and the NAACP help us all get over Whiteness. They take pride in what had been scorned. They confront those who continue to bring Whiteness instead of ethnic and parochial identity to the relationship.

Much of corporate culture continues to see the world as White even though it has become willing to admit people of dark complexion to the White world culture. If dark skinned people speak "proper English" and have the badges of Whiteworld status, they can belong. Don't question their politics or religion. Don't represent that other music or the political and cultural heroes of that other world. Be like us, speak like us, believe like us, and aspire to the gated community if they let you in.

My nephew has married into an old Tucson Mexican family, and he has to live with being the gringo that their sister married while he proves his humanity to them. He understands that and treats it with good humor. His mixed race kids are learning to be at home in two different worlds too. It is a great start, but it is anything but color blind or acultural. Love has amazing power to transcend and to heal. Andrew's brothers-in-law will be on his side in any barrio disagreement with outsiders. But Tucson has a history. Arizona is not brown friendly in conservative politics, to say the least.

I don't think I have ever made the color of anyone's skin more important than their character and humanity. I had to learn to get rid of my Whiteness nonetheless. I was raised by a strong woman and I like women who are powerful and confident, but I was still raised as a male in America. It took me longer to shed homophobia, but I got the help of great gay friends who helped me learn to laugh at my hesitation and myths. I had a rare chance to study the issues deeply as well. I wish others could have their minds and hearts opened as mine was and is.

None of this makes me blame or fail to see the need and value of the victims having organized support to confront prejudice and established discrimination. I cannot deny that racism, sexism and homophobia continue to poison the minds of White, male and straight people as well as harm the victims who internalize the cultural attitudes. When there is no need to deal with these problems, there may be no need for La Raze and the NAACP, NOW and Gay Liberation Fronts. We will know that the problems are of the past when these organizations cease to have a need to be.

It is not for me to tell them that the time has come or that I prove it by being over this crap. It is up to me to help those who share my skin color, gender and orientation see how to live past these barriers. If you want to join that, fine and dandy. But, if you want to spout off about how racist, sexist or anti-straight these fine folks are, I will tell you to go back to that mirror, to look closely, to shut your mouth, to listen and to learn. May you be an ambassador for color-blindness by shedding the light of transcendence instead of complaining about "them."

I cannot express in words how wonderful it feels to be in transcendence of what clearly afflicts so many around me. I am very lucky. I am also responsible for shining light where there is ignorance and fear. How does that do for answering your question?

DRC's picture
DRC
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

dam- Here is the quote again. Read carefully as I was quoting EDWIN Locke.

As Edwin Locke said,"You cannot solve racism with more racism. Singling out one group for special favors (through affirmative action) ignores the fact that people are individuals — not interchangeable ciphers in an amorphous collective."

Notice the word ALSO: Locke also said this," The traditional solution to the problem of racism is color-blindness, or, from the other side of that coin, individual awareness."

JOHN Locke-"There cannot be greater rudeness than to interrupt another in the current of his discourse.”

John Locke-"“Man... hath by nature a power
.... to preserve his property - that is, his life, liberty, and estate - against the injuries and attempts of other men.”

bullwinkle
Joined:
Dec. 28, 2011 1:31 pm

I have said all I need to say about how to solve racism. There is nothing racist about defending yourself against racism. The idiotic and insincere Rightwing talking point about 'reverse racism' or why noting that people have been injured and continue to be discriminated against because of race only makes sense to the dumb, deaf and blind WHITE PRIVILEGE CLUB. 400 years of White Male Affirmative Action ends, and the whining becomes overwhelming. Edwin Locke's point would be correct were "racism" about people of equal power and with equal cultural leverage. Failing to give the victims of racism any right to describe the nature of their oppression is racist, so stop with the sophistry. Respond to what I posted, and do not continue to ask insincere questions. If you are sincere, go back to the mirror and just stare until your mind can begin to work. Over and out.

DRC's picture
DRC
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

I'm just curious, bullwinkle, would you ever marry a black person and have kids with him/her. Or would you mind having black grandkids?

Because if you hesitate on this issue—you are not "colorblind."

Karolina's picture
Karolina
Joined:
Nov. 3, 2011 6:45 pm

In a heartbeat! If I wasn't so old. lol

bullwinkle
Joined:
Dec. 28, 2011 1:31 pm

That's great — and you would have no fear that your kids or grandkids might be stigmatized and/or traumatized by people who feel blacks should be an inferior race, if you, as your younger self, weren't around to protect them?

Karolina's picture
Karolina
Joined:
Nov. 3, 2011 6:45 pm

[quote=bullwinkle]...How is any organization, that uses the color of someone's skin as justification for their existance, addressing anything about character..]

The NAACP and LA RAZA justify their existence to defend blacks and Latinos from racial discrimination against Blacks and Latinos.

Isn't that sort of obvious?

Dr. Econ's picture
Dr. Econ
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote bullwinkle:...Why are you ignoring what MLK said?

Why are you? MLK was for quotas. Figure that one out.

Dr. Econ's picture
Dr. Econ
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote bullwinkle: ... If the racism that America is "all about" is the kind that allows a black man to become president, then I'm afraid the nature of this "all about" is too abstract for me to follow, and I'll bet most Americans feel similarly. It's time to change the discussion.

I can't tell if you ignored the post where I addressed this question or not. Clearly having a black man elected president does not mean that discrimination does or does not exist. These are based on racial differences in outcomes of minorities and whites. Isn't that sort of obvious too?

Dr. Econ's picture
Dr. Econ
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote bullwinkle: Answer the question--Why is the color of one's skin more important than the "content of their character" when judging someone?

Well, I think your talking about debating affirmative action, or other policies that take account of the race of the person. AA programs were put in place to counter racism against under represented minorities and women. Affirmative Actions programs actually mandated picking the under represented person among equally qualified applicants. Quotas were put in place by courts when these programs did not work. To equate such actions with racism against minorities seems to me ridiculous.

Affirmative Action policies in schools seem fine, since many under represented minorities don't have access to good schools.

Dr. Econ's picture
Dr. Econ
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

I have put it on an equal plane. My black brother just told me that what we argue as racist is reallly predjudice from his perspective. That getting beyond the old predjudices and that the Jesse Jackson, and Sharptons ,et al ,do not speak for the majority of blacks, per se, that most have moved beyond thinking in terms of the inferiority or subjugation of the past. He agreed that character mattered above any racial consideration. And the notion of having to denouce one's genetic heritage was preposturous. If one does not already understand the nature of such oppression and been able to move beyond it, is to be idiotic and condescending. Oh, I feel your pain.

He is not ashamed nor intimidated by my whiteness, it is a non-issue, as is his skin color. We both know here the other's conscieousness is as it relates to the other. This is what individualism is all about. Racism is the lowest, most crudely primitive form of collectivism.

Ayn Rand-"The spread of racism requires the destruction of an individual's confidence in his own mind. Such an individual then anxiously seeks a sense of identity by clinging to some group, abandoning his autonomy and his rights, allowing his ethnic group to tell him what to believe. Because he thinks of himself as a racial entity, he feels "himself" only among others of the same race. He becomes a separatist, choosing his friends—and enemies—based on ethnicity.

Individualism regards every man as an independent and sovereign entity who possesses an inalienable right to his own life, a right derived from his nature as a rational being. True understanding among men in the context of "society", the collective, or community can be achieved only on the basis of the recognition of individual rights, with any group rights coming from the individual rights of its members.

I do not buy into your guilthood. Nor does my brother.

bullwinkle
Joined:
Dec. 28, 2011 1:31 pm

I have heard the attacks on the SPLC before and never lookerd into the details, so i looked at bullwinkles link here. Also I would like to think I have a pretty open mind on when leftist groups go to far or are hypocritical. Yet all I see is that thet hung out with some communists and that they are a little to proud of their black heritage. I guess i will not be wasting any more time on that.

The idea that MLK said he dreams of the day when men will not be judged by their skin is somehow used as a justification for racism is as pathetic as it gets. That being said I do think the left has a problem with overgeneralizing racism and tries to avoid the pitfalls involved with its precise identification. Further I believe the left tends to demonize those with racist attitudes as opposed to the usual leftist analysis that would at least partially see them as a sociological constructs as opposed to independent operators of an intended evil.

As for Paul, I have never got a racist impression from the guy. Whether he took money from what some may consider to be racist is pretty immaterial as well.You might even consider it a breech of donor rights to be investigated too closely by the politician you are contributing to. In general if people want to contribute i think politicians should accept. It is only when donations are used for future leverage that we have an issue. If folks feel that is always the case then i guess i would agree with your position

Semi permeable memebrain's picture
Semi permeable ...
Joined:
Nov. 10, 2011 7:36 am

Karolina, I have nieces that are part Mexican. That does not equate in our relationhip, I love them and would protect them with my life. I grew up on a ranch and our neighbors were from Mexico that ran the ranch next to ours. My best friend of 40 years was not even a citizen. He came over here from Mexico with his family in the 50's and could not speak a word of English. He graduated from high school in1966 and could speak perfect English with no special classes and no accent. He didnot want his only daughter taught in spanish as he contended that she needed to speak English in order to get a decent job and she could learn Spanish at home ,IF he wanted her to learn. Her bilingulality has been of great value to her. Joe died in 2006 at 58 of complications from diabetes.

My closest friend today is black and he was also friends with Joe. We have known each other for years. Although, each of us was and is proud of our ethnic heritage and recognize that in the other, it and past racist bullshit of society is a non-issue. We grew up together and our kids grew up together and the crap of society was/is irrelevant.

bullwinkle
Joined:
Dec. 28, 2011 1:31 pm

Currently Chatting

The other way we're subsidizing Walmart...

Most of us know how taxpayers subsidize Walmart's low wages with billions of dollars in Medicaid, food stamps, and other financial assistance for workers. But, did you know that we're also subsidizing the retail giant by paying the cost of their environmental destruction.

Powered by Pressflow, an open source content management system