No more porn in Egypt

42 posts / 0 new

On Wednesday – an Egyptian court ruled that in order to protect society and its values – the government must ban pornography. Human rights groups are criticizing the decision as a violation of freedom of information – and more liberal voices within Egypt are worried this ruling could signal a shift toward a more fundamentalist government.

In a related story – Rick Santorum reportedly is ready to make a major announcement in the coming weeks – his candidacy for President of Egypt in 2014.

Thom Hartmann Administrator's picture
Thom Hartmann A...
Joined:
Dec. 29, 2009 10:59 am

Comments

In Arizona, that kind of social commentary might "annoy" someone. You could get 25 years in prison.

Fletcher Christian's picture
Fletcher Christian
Joined:
Feb. 15, 2012 12:49 pm

re:egyptian porn: ever seen the censored photos of egyptian art in the pyramids? guys with huge stiffies. has the male de-volved since then, or what?

harry ashburn's picture
harry ashburn
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Uh oh, I guess Egypt had better destroy their oblelisks quickly. Can't have phallic symbols sticking up all over.

Choco's picture
Choco
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

This is a bit of a soapbox, but there is a clear relationship between the health of a society and its liberalism toward pornography. To illustrate, In China and Iran the penalty for disseminating pornography is death.

A few years ago I saw the geographical distribution of subscribers for a certain "dark fetish" site. As one would suspect, most of their subscribers were American (even adjusted for population - not broken down by state) followed by Germany, England, and Canada. Conspicuous in their absence were China, Japan, Russia and all muslim nations.

The punch line is that Saudi Arabia (which was also alleged to carry the death penalty, though I have been unable to confirm) had only 1 subscriber; in fact, there was only 1 on the entire peninsula. (I do not remember the figure for Israel) and less than 50 in the entire "muslim world". Humorously, I believe that I "know" who that person was - the wife of a foreign diplomat.

doh1304's picture
doh1304
Joined:
Dec. 6, 2010 10:49 am

So which one was the healthy society? The one that was fearing execution and not risking death to watch strangers from a sexual viewpoint, or the one that was addicted to sexual satisfaction?

Neither society here sounds like we can see it as healthy.

Karolina's picture
Karolina
Joined:
Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm

Banning about anything pushes it underground and into the crime world. Since porn has become legal in most of the US the rape crime rates have dwindled. The same is seen in other countries where it is legal. Religious beliefs are tired and old anyway.

captbebops's picture
captbebops
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

I am not saying that porn should not be banned anywhere. I agree that it should not be.

Of course, I do not think that a society under any kind of totalitarian rule can ever be "healthy". But Doh1304 was indicating that there was a very large number of subscribers in the places where porn was legal. I do think that we have been conditioned to be sex-obsessed by the media, making us more manipulative and potentially less curious about things that are more complex. I don't think that is "healthy" either.

Karolina's picture
Karolina
Joined:
Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm

“According to the U.S. Department of Justice somewhere in America, a woman is raped every 2 minutes.”

Oh! That poor woman! ;-) (Learn to write a sentence, pal.)

So, Capt., all levity aside, and as we establish our non-prudish creds, perhaps we could consider a few realities:

Rape statistics, Egypt: .01 per 100,000, 2008; United States: 28.6 per 100,000, or 86,000 rapes in 2008. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics  I point those statistics out, not to express a wish for a more sexually repressive society, but, rather, to suggest we might get honest about the damage done by violent, misogynistic pornography, which has gone entirely mainstream.

Of course, the statistics, above, are reported rapes. Many, if not most, rapes go unreported:

Quote David Lisack, Ph.D., University of Mass., Boston:

RAPE FACT SHEET
...
The vast majority of rapists are never prosecuted for their crimes. The attrition rate between the commission of the crime and the prosecution of it reveals starkly how unpunished is the crime of rape. Approximately 85% of rape victims do not report their victimization to criminal justice authorities. Of the 15% who do report, it is estimated that perhaps 10% result in the filing of charges, and perhaps 40% of those cases result in some sort of conviction.

This attrition rate means that studies of incarcerated rapists cannot be generalized to the vast majority of rapists who are never reported or prosecuted. Twenty years of research on this latter group – so-called “undetected rapists,” has revealed a group of sexual predators who have escaped detection by the criminal justice system.
...

Sexually Violent Subcultures

A consistent finding in the recent research on “undetected” sexually violent men is that most of this violence emerges either directly or indirectly from what have been termed “sexually violent subcultures.” Examples of such subcultures include fraternities and delinquent gangs. These subcultures are powerful forces that both reflect the rapist’s views about women and sexual conquest, and also help to shape them. For example, at certain college fraternities the use of violent pornography is a frequent form of “entertainment,” providing explicit images of rape as being acceptable, noncriminal, and the sign of male virility. Within these subcultures, “sexual conquest” – having sex with as many women as possible – becomes a critical measure of how men view themselves and each other. The greater the number of such conquests, the more manly is he viewed. The use of coercion and violence to secure these conquests is normalized in the subculture and becomes simply another part of the man’s “sexual arsenal.

Also, even better, this: Research on Pornography (Includes discussion of the influence of pornography on rape and violence against women.)

No, we don't want to be Egypt. But do we want to be who we are?

I find it interesting that the people who bemoan the fact of the Citizens United decision, granting personhood and free speech powers to corporations, are the same people who defend the industry that produces violent pornography on the basis of corporate "free speech," which, they say, includes the right of men to ingest a steady diet of violent, misogynistic pornography. Supposedly, according to them, violent pornography is the ONLY form of "advertising," or media, that has no power to affect the behavior of its consumers. It must be quite a unique kind of media to be so powerless.

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Just saw one of those typo/mistake too late to correct situations :

Quote Karolina:I do think that we have been conditioned to be sex-obsessed by the media, making us more easy to manipulate and potentially less curious about things that are more complex.

Zenzoe, thanks for the info about misogynistic porn. It is sounds like the idea and imagery that would prepare young men for anything except joyful, nurturing marriages.

IMO, it is reprehensible. Is it really legal to torture women on video? Shouldn't this be as illlegal as child porn?

Karolina's picture
Karolina
Joined:
Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm

IMO too, Karolina.

The thing is, we think of ourselves, our culture, as being liberated sexually, and I assume those who watch misogynistic pornography, the kind that makes violence against women palatable, think of themselves as liberated, i.e., not repressed sexually. But, in fact, a whole lot of repression must go on, before such ideas and images can be taken in and used for sexual arousal. Actually, it's the repression of real erotic feeling, and of the whole person, which includes respect for the Other.

I liked what .ren wrote earlier, within a different thread. I think it fits here, as well:

Quote .ren:

The Orwellianness of this kind of thinking is that, without the rest of our humanity, it reduces human beings into little more than rational machines, meanwhile the "machines" believe through this rational process that they are made free. However it's essentially a self denying, lying machine that does that. To believe is not itself rational, never can be, which creates the need to repress and deny what is actually taking place in the mind -- to endlessly rationalize it. An actual machine does not act on its own to believe, it can only be programmed to act as if it does. But in that case it's just a program, while belief itself is a very complicated human existential act of choice. One need only examine and question one's own belief in anything to uncover that. Doing so will raise all sorts of uncomfortable emotional issues. Machines don't have that problem. All your computer will do when faced with some sort of rational contradiction in its programming is go into some sort of logical loop and freeze up. All you need do to fix it most of the time is reboot it. Worse comes to worse, install new hardware and reinstall the operating system.

Violent, misogynistic pornography also reduces human beings to "rational" machines.

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Zenzoe:Violent, misogynistic pornography also reduces human beings to "rational" machines.

NOT the cultural development of a healthy society.

Karolina's picture
Karolina
Joined:
Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm

Actually I exaggerated my point. I do not believe that America is a sexually healthy society. We have far too many people like Ed Meese, Catherine McKinnon and Rick Santorum. We cannot distinguish between what is evil and what we've been told is nasty. We cannot distinguish between college kids watching a movie and a rapist. When some self promoting wannabe guardian of the nation pulls numbers out of his ass we debunk him - unless it's about sex. We know there's a difference between Elliot Ness and Mark Fuhrman, but we are blind to the difference between Elliot Ness and Simon Leis. We do not know the difference between a 1980's splatter movie and guro.

Because if we admitted there was a difference we would be exposing our prejudices, and we've already done that with race and can't take that pain again.

doh1304's picture
doh1304
Joined:
Dec. 6, 2010 10:49 am
Quote doh1304:

Actually I exaggerated my point. I do not believe that America is a sexually healthy society. We have far too many people like Ed Meese, Catherine McKinnon and Rick Santorum. We cannot distinguish between what is evil and what we've been told is nasty. We cannot distinguish between college kids watching a movie and a rapist. When some self promoting wannabe guardian of the nation pulls numbers out of his ass we debunk him - unless it's about sex. We know there's a difference between Elliot Ness and Mark Fuhrman, but we are blind to the difference between Elliot Ness and Simon Leis. We do not know the difference between a 1980's splatter movie and guro.

Because if we admitted there was a difference we would be exposing our prejudices, and we've already done that with race and can't take that pain again.

Sounds to me like you're the one who has difficulty making meaningful distinctions. Apparently, you're incapable of distinguishing between erotic, frankly sexual pornography and violent, misogynistic pornography. Apparently, you cannot see the difference between kids "watching a movie" and kids being trained by gonzo pornography into being aggressive sexual predators. You apparently lack the ability to discern the difference between the spirit behind the religious, conservative anti-pornography attitude and that of the liberal left's anti-pornography movement. So, instead of pausing for a second to look at the realities, you'd rather mush everything together into one big pile of Stuff That's a Threat to My Stuff.

Don't worry, doh. Nobody's going to take away your stuff. It's not about banning; it's about confronting sexism and racism. It's about critical thinking. (The link is to a talk by Robert Jensen, liberal professor of journalism and author.)

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Z,

That was enlightening. When I hear the phrase "gonzo pornography" it is in a different context - equating people doing things like collecting clips of death scenes from Hollywood movies to the people who produce mean spirited garbage like the examples Professor Jensen used. This is like equating Cheech and Chong to the Medallin Cartel - completely and destructively missing the point.

Professor Jensen defined gonzo porn as a distinction of content in mass distribution porn. I find mass distribution porn to be both boring and repulsive, in much the same way he does. It is cynically capitalistic, and does indeed prey on baser instincts. This is why red states are by far the larger consumers of it.

That said, I also found myself vacillating between sadness and contempt toward Professor Jensen. He is noticeably self-delusional and unthinking about his own prejudices, patronizing, propagandistic, and self-righteous, though he is even better than Reagan or Bush in hiding it behind a patina of affability. Belaboring the drug analogy, I see him as much like President Obama and his hypocritical lies about medical marijuana and whistle blowers - he likes to appear to be the good guy, but the results do not match the claim. Professor Jensen claims to denounce right wing anti-porn crusading, but differentiates himself only with a platitude and a dog whistle.

I sincerely wish you luck in creating a liberal anti-pornography movement, but you will have to look in a mirror first. What you hate about pornography is no more about pornography than rape is about sexuality. It is the stigma, the persecution of manifestations of sexuality that you don't like that have created the vacuum that the detestable people have filled.

doh1304's picture
doh1304
Joined:
Dec. 6, 2010 10:49 am

You write this, "I find mass distribution porn to be both boring and repulsive, in much the same way he does. It is cynically capitalistic, and does indeed prey on baser instincts..." and then, rather than having the courage to take that gut reaction to a deeper, intellectual critique of "mass distribution" pornography, you move on to contradict yourself. Perhaps you should look in a mirror. Think about why you avoid looking at what pornography has become and how it negatively impacts the lives of women AND men, not only those who consume it on a regular basis, but the society as a whole.

I have the impression, though, that you don't know what I'm talking about. Perhaps it's been awhile since you watched pornography and you're not aware of how violent and misogynistic it has become, and how it normalizes sexual brutality. What I hate about pornography IS about pornography, because mainstream, everyday pornography has become violent and misogynistic, just to maintain its shock value. In fact, the average porn film of today is no more about sexuality than is rape, but you cannot wrap your head around that idea, because you imagine I am talking about a sub-genre of pornography that most people don't watch. Wrong! I'm talking about your average porn video, which has made "gonzo" the norm for the industry.

Perhaps it's difficult for you to imagine the legitimacy of my woman's point of view. Perhaps it's difficult for you to comprehend my inability to relate to media that depicts my sex/gender as being incapable of sexual arousal without violence; that is, media that teaches men to think women need to have their human rights violated to be turned on. I don't know why it would be so difficult for you to comprehend it, but there you are, not comprehending.

Understanding the Perpetrator:

Pornography consumption was common among the men in the sample and may further add to the risk of sexual aggression. Specific violent or rape-theme content of the pornography has been associated with propensity to rape and pro-rape attitudes in laboratory analogues, as well as from self-reports of men who have admitted raping. (Carr and Van Deusen, 2004). http://sapac.umich.edu/article/196

The Price of Pleasure: Pornography, Sexuality and Relationships.

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Zenzoe, thanks for links to the sites about these subjects.

For a while now I have been mentally focused on imagining this world getting through 2012 without thermo-nuclear results from all of the destructive energy that has been placed on this year by the "ending times" Christian extremist people, and all of the fear that the "end of the world" crap of ancient Aztec predictions toted throughout the media for over a decade have caused in many non-cultist people.

We really are all in danger of mass destruction politically at any moment, but it really can all be turned around, globally...

Anyway, once anything else is no longer a diversion from the most horrific immediate dangers—I will be resurrecting my Feminist Banner from its dusty position in the proverbial corner.

BUT maybe there won't be any need for our aggressive educating in a patriarchal nightmare anymore, because maybe, just maybe, the world will have become a much better, more healthy, more loving place.

One can only hope...

Karolina's picture
Karolina
Joined:
Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm

Perhaps you'll think it strange, Karolina, but I don't see the issue as a feminist one. For me, it's a human issue and closely related to my desire to live in a humane world. Pornography, where it defines men as cruel and violent and women as the natural recipients of male violence, does nothing but lie to us about who we are. I suppose I am particularly compassionate for women and the loss of our personhood within the genre, but I'm aware of the same thing happening to men there as well.

I also see that micro definition of men —"Man?"— as cruel and violent as mirrored globally on the macro scale. It's all interrelated, as far as I can tell. Would we be so close to climate disaster were the profit motive, with the callousness that drives it, not in play so strongly? Would Israel do what it does, and would we keep supporting them, if its leaders had not hardened their hearts a long time ago? I could go on, use different examples (take your pick), but I'm sure you get my point.

But yes, right now the fact of the San Onofre nuclear plant in my backyard affects me far more, and I am far more worried about that than this issue. But, like I say, it's all connected. If we're to have a happy, healthy world, we're gonna have to look at who we think we are, even down to our sexuality. Didn't Freud say it drives it all?

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Zenzoe:For me, it's a human issue and closely related to my desire to live in a humane world. Pornography, where it defines men as cruel and violent and women as the natural recipients of male violence, does nothing but lie to us about who we are. I suppose I am particularly compassionate for women and the loss of our personhood within the genre, but I'm aware of the same thing happening to men there as well.

I also see that micro definition of men —"Man?"— as cruel and violent as mirrored globally on the macro scale. It's all interrelated, as far as I can tell. Would we be so close to climate disaster were the profit motive, with the callousness that drives it, not in play so strongly?

This is brilliant and true!

Quote Zenzoe:If we're to have a happy, healthy world, we're gonna have to look at who we think we are, even down to our sexuality. Didn't Freud say it drives it all?

Well, maybe if Freud hadn't said this, we would be in a better world right now. I think Freud's idea just made people more conscious of their sexuality, where before they probably defined themselves in other ways.

There is a British TV comedy/drama program called "Doc Martin". In one episode a man starts to gorge testosterone pills in an effort to make himself more manly in an effort to stop being secretly homosexual—even though his wife thinks it's very secretly hip to be married to a secretly "bi" man. Of course testosterone just makes him long for male companionship more, which makes him (sadly) hate himself more, which makes him gorge more testosterone, which turns him more into an angry monster searching for an opportunity to beat up some bloody "homo."

I'm not sure all people should be defining themselves firstly by their sexuality. Maybe just the human DNA that we all have in common would be a better start...

Karolina's picture
Karolina
Joined:
Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm

If you are going to have a First Amendment then you cannot be restricting free speech even if you disagree with it. The primary reason I am a progressive is to protect first amendment rights. In the 21st century freedom of speech should be the order of the day and not ancient out-of-date behavioral texts that belong in a museum.

captbebops's picture
captbebops
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

captebebops, I can't tell if you are speaking to me, and, if so, what I said that you found offensive.

Karolina's picture
Karolina
Joined:
Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm
Quote Karolina:

Well, maybe if Freud hadn't said this, we would be in a better world right now. I think Freud's idea just made people more conscious of their sexuality, where before they probably defined themselves in other ways.

Absolutely! And if Freud hadn't claimed that women had "penis envy," I might have taken him more seriously than I did. Sorry I mentioned the putz.

Quote Karolina:

There is a British TV comedy/drama program called "Doc Martin". In one episode a man starts to gorge testosterone pills in an effort to make himself more manly in an effort to stop being secretly homosexual—even though his wife thinks it's very secretly hip to be married to a secretly "bi" man. Of course testosterone just makes him long for male companionship more, which makes him (sadly) hate himself more, which makes him gorge more testosterone, which turns him more into an angry monster searching for an opportunity to beat up some bloody "homo."

I LOVE DOC MARTIN! I've seen most of those, with the exception of the last season, which isn't available at Netflix yet. I did notice PBS has been airing them. Anyway, yes, that was such a brilliant episode. Most of them are. Doc, himself, is quite a specimen, of course. ;-)

Quote Karolina:

I'm not sure all people should be defining themselves firstly by their sexuality. Maybe just the human DNA that we all have in common would be a better start...

Very much agreed. After all, we have so much more in common that we don't, it only seems sensible to concentrate on that.

Quote captbebops:

If you are going to have a First Amendment then you cannot be restricting free speech even if you disagree with it. The primary reason I am a progressive is to protect first amendment rights. In the 21st century freedom of speech should be the order of the day and not ancient out-of-date behavioral texts that belong in a museum.

Don't worry, Capt., I'm all for the First Amendment too— for human beings. The pornography industry is made up of corporations. It's a business. Unless you're crazy about the Citizens United ruling, you might reconsider whether you think the hate-speech put out by the likes of Extreme Associates deserves the protection of the First Amendment.

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

What is most disturbing about modern pornography is the elimination of the erotic for misogyny and sadism. The chapter in Chris Hedges EMPIRE OF ILLUSION on the Las Vegas porn convention was disgusting to read. Must have been much worse to research and write.

Erotica has a defense. The Porn Industry is a debased commercialism, not just the business of erotica. Progressives need to be able to be for freedom of speech and expression without approving the utterly perverse and ugly. If Egypt wants to ban this stuff, fine with me. If they think they are going to stop erotica, good luck to them.

DRC's picture
DRC
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Well said, DRC, as usual. (I was wondering where you went!)

Legal prohibitions against child pornography exist, and everybody understands that. You don't hear anybody standing up for the First Amendment rights of child pornographers. But somehow the violent exploitation of women is okay, what, because women deserve it? They're not "innocent?" They "choose" to be sexually assaulted on film, denigrated, treated like trash? BS. I think something else is going on, something including the word corrupt.

I have three granddaughters. The last thing I want to happen to any one of them, when she has her first sexual experience, would be for her to have that experience with a boy who learned about sex from misogynistic pornography. It absolutely sickens me to think that a whole generation of boys their age will be ruined for caring and mutually satisfying sexual relationships by that time.

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Zenzoe:

Don't worry, Capt., I'm all for the First Amendment too— for human beings. The pornography industry is made up of corporations. It's a business. Unless you're crazy about the Citizens United ruling, you might reconsider whether you think the hate-speech put out by the likes of Extreme Associates deserves the protection of the First Amendment.

So you've perused the porn web sites and determined they are all run by big corporations? Or are you taking this by hearsay? What about the independent web cams? Let's not blame everything on the "big" corporations though they indeed are a big problem (and in fact shouldn't exist).

I find the web cam phenomena interesting along with the amateur porn (also not corporate). Back during the 1920's and 30's when Germany's economy was hurting some couples would put on sex shows in their homes for foreigners to make money. People do the same with their own web sites these days. So if you don't like porn blame the economy for it. Perhaps stipends for all might help? Would people bother if they had that stipend or would they still do it for "gravy"? And then you are always going to have people who like to express their sexuality and even make it publicly available. These are not always people who were sexually abused as kids but have an libido that drives them towards such things.

And you do know that Thom is friends with Larry Flynt and has written articles for Hustler? Free speech cannot come with qualifications including hate speech. You start parameterizing what is allowed and soon even you won't be able to say anything.

captbebops's picture
captbebops
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

So bebops, should child porn be legal? Is its illegallity a start toward everyone in the country being silenced? Should a few unfortunate children be sacrficed for the first amendment?

Karolina's picture
Karolina
Joined:
Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm

No child porn should not be legal. There are rules on what age one is allowed to participate and it requires that one be a responsible adult. And no one should at any age should be forced to participate either. It has to come at their own volition.

captbebops's picture
captbebops
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Do you think that porn videos of Jews being pushed into gas chambers in NAZI Germany and being sexually exploited by prison guards before they shut the gas chamber doors, would be okay? Do you think that would be allowed to be shown once the Jewish community found out about it?

Do you think that porn videos of blacks being flogged by people in white sheets and white hoods and being sexually exploited by these KKK's before they hang them up in a tree would be okay? Do you think there wouldn't be protests from every part of the black community once that came out?

Why wouldn't women be painfully offended and angry about pornography that is meant to further destroy our communities, filling all of our sons' and grandsons' minds and subconscious with perversion and disgusting images of sex being about misogyny and cruel dominance while filling our daughters' and granddaughters' futures with pain and humiliation? And why wouldn't, why shouldn't these woman be entitled to rally to have that evil that is taking the humanity out of human beings' lives and futures—changed? Regulated somehow?

Karolina's picture
Karolina
Joined:
Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm

Not all that is considered porn is misongynystic or cruel dominance. There is some dare I say beautiful porn out there as well. Personally I just read the articles. ;)

Bush_Wacker's picture
Bush_Wacker
Joined:
Jun. 25, 2011 7:53 am

Bush Wacker, I'm not talking about the erotic and the beautiful porn!

Michelangelo was my childhood-favorite artist, so I am hardly prudish. My poor parents didn't know what to do when they found me trying to draw "David" from a book, before I had reached age 10—so they pretended not to notice.

Karolina's picture
Karolina
Joined:
Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm

I agree Karolina. It is extremely disturbing especially when you consider that S&M porn would not be an issue if there weren't a demand for it. That kind of porn is produced in order for someone to make money and an increase in supply means there is an increase in demand. What is particularly disturbing about it is the psychological mind set that is demanding so much of it. It's kind of scary.

Bush_Wacker's picture
Bush_Wacker
Joined:
Jun. 25, 2011 7:53 am

This extreme popularity of S&M porn is really disturbing to me now.

I have no idea why Egypt banned all porn, which is what this thread was originally started about—but learning about all this flooding of the internet and society with predator/assailant vs. victim pornography seems to me absolutely as Empire targetting "we the people" to poison our most basic human relationships, the core of our societies, our nations, our culture.

Empire, oligarchy, corporacracy or whatever you want to call it, thrives on hierarchy and cruel authority. If that element is introduced into human sexual relationships through brainwashing, it affects everything. It poisons the relationships of significant others, it affects the stability of children's lives, it makes humans less able to trust each other.It makes humans less secure, and easier to dominate and control.

I believe that children would also be affected to later be seeking sexual pleasure in S&M type situations as well, if they are involved in any family violence or mental abuse in childhood.

Sorry for getting the comments out of order BushWacker.

Karolina's picture
Karolina
Joined:
Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm
Quote captbebops:
Quote Zenzoe:

Don't worry, Capt., I'm all for the First Amendment too— for human beings. The pornography industry is made up of corporations. It's a business. Unless you're crazy about the Citizens United ruling, you might reconsider whether you think the hate-speech put out by the likes of Extreme Associates deserves the protection of the First Amendment.

So you've perused the porn web sites and determined they are all run by big corporations? Or are you taking this by hearsay? What about the independent web cams? Let's not blame everything on the "big" corporations though they indeed are a big problem (and in fact shouldn't exist).

I find the web cam phenomena interesting along with the amateur porn (also not corporate). Back during the 1920's and 30's when Germany's economy was hurting some couples would put on sex shows in their homes for foreigners to make money. People do the same with their own web sites these days. So if you don't like porn blame the economy for it. Perhaps stipends for all might help? Would people bother if they had that stipend or would they still do it for "gravy"? And then you are always going to have people who like to express their sexuality and even make it publicly available. These are not always people who were sexually abused as kids but have an libido that drives them towards such things.

And you do know that Thom is friends with Larry Flynt and has written articles for Hustler? Free speech cannot come with qualifications including hate speech. You start parameterizing what is allowed and soon even you won't be able to say anything.

I try as best I can to differentiate between the violent, misogynistic pornography that is produced by a profit-driven industry (and that has become the norm), and independent, individually produced sex videos, but no matter what I say, people assume I'm talking about ALL pornography. It's as though they need desperately to put me in the "prudish" camp, which is where they think all critics of porn reside as sexually repressed people, so that they don't have to think about the issue and can argue from old positions that don't fit the reality anymore.

Listen, Capbebops, not that I have to prove anything to you, but I was quite the "hottie" in my day, and I've seen plenty of pornography and enjoyed it too. Like Karolina, I studied art (B.A.), and so I've worked with live nudes in school and exposed myself to erotic art of all sorts. So, when I tell you I understand the enjoyment of pornography, you should believe me. But unlike Thom, apparently, I have boundaries. I believe in limits to tolerance. I can draw a line, and the line I draw is where plain ol' pornography —sex— turns into a sadistic and vile victimization of women, as if that's sex and not an abuse of power. At a certain point, you have to draw a line; my line is where such crimes against the humanity of women become the norm. If you don't believe me (norm), look at the documentary The Price of Pleasure (link, above).

I remember when my consciousness on the subject began to turn. It was the cover of the June 1978 Hustler Magazine, which depicted a female being cutely processed through a manual meat grinder (go find it yourself), legs and bottom balanced above at the funnel, with the ground-up product accumulating below on a plate. I remember being outraged by the illustration. I remember feeling the collective humiliation of my gender, understanding that the hatred and fear informing such a cartoon was our world, where disgust, loathing and shame have their way with us every day —rape, battering, lower wages— where, on the cover of a national men’s magazine we see Woman rendered into ground meat.

Honestly, I find it baffling that even liberal men (some) cannot suffer too over the humiliation dumped on my sex and its sexuality. Moreover, why can't you take a stand against it on our behalf? What is the matter with you? I guess it takes a picture to get through to you:

Quote Karolina:

Do you think that porn videos of Jews being pushed into gas chambers in NAZI Germany and being sexually exploited by prison guards before they shut the gas chamber doors, would be okay? Do you think that would be allowed to be shown once the Jewish community found out about it?

Do you think that porn videos of blacks being flogged by people in white sheets and white hoods and being sexually exploited by these KKK's before they hang them up in a tree would be okay? Do you think there wouldn't be protests from every part of the black community once that came out?

Why wouldn't women be painfully offended and angry about pornography that is meant to further destroy our communities, filling all of our sons' and grandsons' minds and subconscious with perversion and disgusting images of sex being about misogyny and cruel dominance while filling our daughters' and granddaughters' futures with pain and humiliation? And why wouldn't, why shouldn't these woman be entitled to rally to have that evil that is taking the humanity out of human beings' lives and futures—changed? Regulated somehow?

Perfect. I hope those stark images do get through. But we shouldn't forget that the subject of sex renders people dumb. If the subject is profit-driven damage done to the environment, OH NO, we can't have that! But if the subject is profit-driven damage done to women, in the guise of "sex," no problem. Somehow, if it's "sex," the brain shuts down. We're not going to think about that, because to do so would make us look uncool, i.e., like the uptight, puritanical right-wingers who usually take up the subject, those who pretend not to like ANY kind of pornography.

I doubt the thinking behind the First Amendment intended to protect the so-called speech of corporations and businesses. I disagree with the Citizens United decision. However, given that we live in a sadistic, cruel society, where if there's a market for cruelty-tainted products nothing will be done to end the cruelty, I doubt anything will be done about sadistic, sexist and misogynistic pornography, either. Thus, if we cannot outright ban the stuff, at least see it for what it is. And stand up against it. Shame it! But mostly, if you're enjoying it, go take a look in the mirror and ask yourself why you hate women so much and why you need to see women battered, violated, insulted and harmed in order to get off.

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Bush_Wacker: It is extremely disturbing especially when you consider that S&M porn would not be an issue if there weren't a demand for it. That kind of porn is produced in order for someone to make money and an increase in supply means there is an increase in demand. What is particularly disturbing about it is the psychological mind set that is demanding so much of it. It's kind of scary.

It is extremely scary !

I wonder if what I said in that last post, namely:

"I believe that children would also be affected to later be seeking sexual pleasure in S&M type situations as well, if they are involved in any family violence or mental abuse in childhood. "

...has something to do with it?

If so, if people were exposed to things that left them with the need for exploitative experiences (as either dominant or victim) for sexual pleasure, they should be aware that the subconscious never shuts down, and can be reprogrammed to bring respect, passion and love into personal sexual experience.

Karolina's picture
Karolina
Joined:
Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm

I wanted to add something to what I said, above ("I remember when my consciousness on the subject began to turn. It was the cover of the June 1978 Hustler Magazine, which depicted a female being cutely processed through a manual meat grinder (go find it yourself), legs and bottom balanced above at the funnel, with the ground-up product accumulating below on a plate. I remember being outraged by the illustration. I remember feeling the collective humiliation of my gender, understanding that the hatred and fear informing such a cartoon was our world, where disgust, loathing and shame have their way with us every day —rape, battering, lower wages— where, on the cover of a national men’s magazine we see Woman rendered into ground meat."), by pointing out that had the person being put through a meat grinder been a Muslim, or a Jew, or an African American, all those liberals, those who laugh to see the same thing happening to a woman, would suddenly have a fit of anger and outrage over the image.

I hope D_NATURED won't mind if I quote him out of context, but, as he said on the Sane Conversation about Abortion thread, "...Stop being such a girl, a man might say to another, what a pussy...What if we commonly called thieves whiteys or said "What, are you asian?", every time someone failed a driving test? Those groups would be up in arms. Yet, the oppression of women is so effortless because it can be expressed in a thousand different ways that have historical precedent that women themselves are too polite to object to." And we're expected to be polite toward the mind-set that sees women as legitimate objects of sexual torture too. Sigh.

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/04/201241517621720561.html "Historic transition in Libya must not forget survivors of sexual violence", by Margaret Wallstrom Last Modified: 15 Apr 2012 18:17

http://uhurunews.com/story?resource_name=the-us-funded-war-on-congo-and-the-war-on-african-women by UhuruNews, Published Apr 8, 2011 WARNING: DISTURBING IMAGE

I suspect the prevalence of porn in general is a result of cultural impoverishment. The barrenness of our urban landscapes, the lack of venue for full expression of full potential. Thus, even "good" porn can be a symptom of an unhealthy society. All porn lacks context and is therefore primarily a masturbatory tool and not really "art" although it can and does (rarely) exhibit artistic or arguable humorous qualities and aspects. If eroticism in art was a reflection or commentary on the context of real life, porn would be unecessary in an ideal world.

I still think men need porn more than women because even if the sex drives are high in each its different. Then again that's just a rationalization. I am tempted to be opportunistically crude in paraphrasing the likely thoughts of the Secret Service and military personell recently busted in Columbia prior to Obama's visit. "I can't concentrate on my job if I am distracted by .... ." And they worry about gays in the military. Pshaw! Read your Vergil.

nimblecivet's picture
nimblecivet
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote nimblecivet:http://uhurunews.com/story?resource_name=the-us-funded-war-on-congo-and-the-war-on-african-women by UhuruNews, Published Apr 8, 2011 WARNING: DISTURBING IMAGE

I suspect the prevalence of porn in general is a result of cultural impoverishment. The barrenness of our urban landscapes, the lack of venue for full expression of full potential. Thus, even "good" porn can be a symptom of an unhealthy society. All porn lacks context and is therefore primarily a masturbatory tool and not really "art" although it can and does (rarely) exhibit artistic or arguable humorous qualities and aspects. If eroticism in art was a reflection or commentary on the context of real life, porn would be unecessary in an ideal world.

In contrast to the horrific photo and disturbing information about the Congo and about imperialism, here is a 60 Minutes piece that I can't watch without weeping about the beauty of the human species.

For me this is a heartbreaking juxtaposition of the amazing capabilities of human beings to create joy even in the face of unimaginable strife—with the horrible ability of human beings to destroy and degrade when they shut love out of their hearts.

Karolina's picture
Karolina
Joined:
Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm

My internet connection is bad today so I was only able to watch half the story. Thanks for providing the link, though, and yes, you're right, it is especially important to remember that hope and beauty survive in spite of the worst circumstances.

nimblecivet's picture
nimblecivet
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Thom talked today about our military and its policy of covering up sexual harassment and rape, by discharging women who complain and labeling them as mentally ill. (I wish they'd post a link.)

If nothing else, we humans are malleable. Whether we turn out well or badly depends a great deal on context, on the culture. Apparently, today's military has gone corrupt and produces the worst sort of men. I don't think my father's generation of soldiers would behave toward women the way soldiers do today. Do me a favor— don't ask me again to say, "Thank you for your service."

http://truth-out.org/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=6299:military-...

"Once in the armed services, recruits become part of a warrior culture. Bellicose military vocabulary is laden with denigrations of feminine traits, and gender slurs motivate men to act aggressively toward women. Until 1999, pornography could easily be purchased by servicemen at US military base commissaries, which ranked among the largest purchasers of hard-core pornography. [now they get it on the internet] Military bases are commonly associated with prostitution, which is tacitly accepted by commanding officers and local authorities. For example, more than 5000 women, mainly from the Philippines and the former Soviet Union, were trafficked into South Korea in the mid 1990s, primarily to work as “entertainers” at bars near US military bases. The use of rape as a weapon of war, including by US soldiers, marks one of the most extreme examples of interpersonal." http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/512380

Pornography and the Military, by Robert Jensen. He actually gave a talk on pornography to a group of Marines. I doubt it made much difference.


Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Yes Zenzoe, it seems that oligachical, corporate imperialism, in accord with Ren's post from that other thread about how people in a cult are braiwashed, cannot allow its footmen to feel any emotions—only fully-focused loyalty to the Empire and as a far second, self-preservation.

Oh — and foolish pride.

Karolina's picture
Karolina
Joined:
Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm

True, Karolina. And at the same time, I think it's a two-way street. Some of the "brainwashed" arrive already ignorant and ready-made for manipulation. Back in 2006, when I was still working, the company hired a handsome young Marine named Joey who had just been discharged after serving in Iraq. I remember he made some interesting comments to me, among them that he thought women didn't belong in the military; not only that, they shouldn't even be allowed to vote. Most memorably, though, he said that the war allowed him to commit murder and "get away with it." I had the impression much of it was bluster, though; he put on a sort of tough-guy walk everywhere he went. (He also told me that his father had beaten him a lot when he was a kid.) Then the revealing moment came once when we were waiting in line to leave the building; I noticed he reacted to the sound of a door slamming, more so than the rest of us—he flinched and appeared to be readying to duck for cover, just a slight momentary gesture, but it spoke volumes. Damn, it's such a messed up world, isn't it?

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Adwardter:

Based on new rule of Egypt they stop showing any Porn videos for the sack of there culture or society.It's actually a good decision against inappropriate sexuality of young generation.

LOL For the "sack" of there culture! Freudian slip? Too funny.

Bush_Wacker's picture
Bush_Wacker
Joined:
Jun. 25, 2011 7:53 am

Currently Chatting

Largest Climate March Ever!

On Sunday, the world's largest climate march took over New York City. In addition to the 400,000 people who showed up to demand change in the Big Apple, hundreds of thousands more joined events in at least 156 counties. From London to Rio to Melbourne to New York, people around the world joined together to demand action on climate change.

Powered by Pressflow, an open source content management system