"Women's Issues" are "Side Issues?"

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Today Thom agreed with a caller, saying that, yes, the Republicans use issues such as birth control as a diversion from the “important issues.” That’s when I turned off the TV.

So, now we have a hierarchy of issues, along with all the other toxic hierarchies we subscribe to as a culture? Birth control, which is a woman’s issue —and a man’s issue, and an issue of population control— counts for less, as an issue? It’s a “side issue?” Sorry, but I read this conventional “wisdom” as saying, “women’s issues are unimportant." And them’s fightin’ words!

Misogyny is a side issue too? Sexism is a side issue? I suppose racism is a side issue too, then? And these things are unrelated to, and distinct from, the general sickness of our society and the roots of its problems and crimes against democracy and justice?

Well, I am glad the Republicans focus on these “side issues.” Certainly, if liberals, progressives and Democrats think of them as unimportant issues and fail to discuss them, when will the fundamental sickness ever end? At least somebody opened up the discussion! I say take advantage of the opportunity— investigate the relationship between racism, sexism, war, and all the other "more important" issues of the day.

http://www.globalfootprints.org/page/id/77/3/

http://www.globalissues.org/article/166/womens-rights

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Comments

Don't you read the other threads where we learn that victimization and "special interest" pleading are liberal sins? Real women just transcend it and don't complain. Real men just close their eyes and stuff their ears to block out the whining. Being color blind is ignoring racism so it will go away. Kind of two year old stuff, but if you can't see it, it can't see you.

On the other hand, my property rights and my money are central issues. If you complain, you are not taking personal responsibility.

If you take enough drugs, this stuff might start making sense.

DRC's picture
DRC
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote DRC:

Don't you read the other threads where we learn that victimization and "special interest" pleading are liberal sins? Real women just transcend it and don't complain. Real men just close their eyes and stuff their ears to block out the whining. Being color blind is ignoring racism so it will go away. Kind of two year old stuff, but if you can't see it, it can't see you.

On the other hand, my property rights and my money are central issues. If you complain, you are not taking personal responsibility.

If you take enough drugs, this stuff might start making sense.

That's because taxing the rich is like aborting them from the protective womb of fascist American politics. It diminishes their "viability" as multi-national beings and limits their inalienable right to live at our expense, as flesh and blood people. It's a sin to enact policies that prevent wealth accumulation by a few. Don't you see it is the wealthy who are the real victims in society and all of the whining about health care and outsourcing and justice and societal equality and income disparity by the poor liberals is just a distraction? Don't you humans know how good you have it at not being saddled with the weight of responsibility for your own futures?

Why must we continue to waste valuable time debating the health care needs of female humans when there are corporate persons whose lives are being destroyed, this very minute, by anti-business liberals who cut them out of the political process every chance they get. Can't we look at the big picture, for once? Who is bigger than Exon? How many other potential Exons have been thrown away like trash by the blind, pro-human liberals.

Quit bitchin', Zenzoe, you had your chance to incorporate and become part of the system. You CHOSE to remain human. Take some personal responsibility, would you?

D_NATURED's picture
D_NATURED
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Oct. 20, 2010 8:47 pm

Yup, side issue, kind like a 'side dish'. At one time women would be referred to as a 'dish' - example "what a dish she is!" (Ask the Friess guy about this term, remember he advocates apirin between the knees as a viable birth control method for women.)

Sorry, there isn't any drug that can make this go away. Until some day - when the spin koolaid runs out - we will be looking at why women are still 2nd class citizens. Yeah, baby, we've got along way to go.

Maybe if our 'founding fathers' knew as much about people & people with uteri, as they knew about guns, then uteri would be in our government documents too.

*And doncha think it's strange: uteri or anything about uteri is absolutely absent in those founding documents but our current crop of politicos have their panties all wedged up about birth control & controlling the uteri. As they say truth is stranger than fiction.

media_muse
Joined:
Dec. 10, 2011 3:09 pm

Yeah, I love you guys—funny, smart, wonderful.

Well, on another thread I mentioned the The Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act of 2009, and the lifting of the "Mexico City Policy," or "Gag Rule," as important things the Obama Administration has accomplished. I was then treated to this: "Even here on Thom Hartmann's Community very few seem to understand what's going on or the urgency of it, Sure, there are plenty of important matters to concern us but when your (our) house is on fire you (we) might want to hold off on cleaning the toilet." I don't know, it kinda made me mad as hell.

And then Thom's comment. Honestly, I'm kinda tired of social issues being thought of as "soft issues." You know the implications of "soft," right?

Anyway, I'm over it, kinda like Eve Ensler is over rape:

Quote EveEnsler:

“I am over rape.

“I am over rape culture, rape mentality, rape pages on Facebook.

“I am over people demanding their right to rape pages, and calling it freedom of speech or justifying it as a joke.

“I am over people not understanding that rape is not a joke and I am over being told I don’t have a sense of humor, and women don’t have a sense of humor, when most women I know (and I know a lot) are really, really funny. We just don’t think that uninvited penises up our vaginas are a laugh riot.

“I am over the hundreds of thousands of women in Congo still waiting for the rapes to end and the rapists to be held accountable.

“I am over the thousands of women in Bosnia and Burma and Pakistan and South Africa and Guatemala and Sierra Leone and Haiti and Afghanistan and Libya, you name a place, still waiting for justice.

“I am over three women in the U.S military—one out of three women—getting raped by their so-called 'comrades.'

“I am over the forces that deny women who have been raped the right to abortion.

“I am over women rape victims becoming re-raped when they go public.

“I am over women getting raped at Occupy Wall Street and being quiet about it because they were protecting a movement which is fighting to end the pillaging and raping of the economy and the earth, as if the rape of their bodies was something separate.

“I am over women still being silent about rape, because they are made to believe it’s their fault or they did something to make it happen.

“I am over violence against women not being a #1 priority internationally and nationally when one out of three women in the world will be raped or beaten in her lifetime — the destruction and muting and undermining of women is the destruction of life itself.

“No women, no future, duh.

“I am over this rape culture where the privileged with political and physical and economic might, take what they want, who they want, when they want it, as much as they want, any time they want it.

“I am over the endless resurrection of the careers of rapists and sexual exploiters — film directors, world leaders, corporate executives, movie stars, athletes — while the lives of the women they violated are permanently destroyed, often forcing them to live in social and emotional exile.

“I am over the passivity of good men. Where the hell are you?

“You live with us, make love with us, father us, befriend us, brother us, get nurtured and mothered and eternally supported by us, so why aren’t you standing with us? Why aren’t you driven to the point of madness and action by the rape and humiliation of us?

“I am over years and years of being over rape.

“And thinking about rape every day of my life since I was raped when I was 5 years old.

“And getting sick from rape, and depressed from rape, and enraged by rape.

“And reading my insanely crowded inbox of rape horror stories every hour of every single day.

“I am over being polite about rape. It’s been too long now, we have been too understanding.

“We need to OCCUPYRAPE in every school, park, radio, TV station, household, office, factory, refugee camp, military base, back room, night club, alleyway, courtroom, and UN office. We need people to truly try and imagine — once and for all — what it feels like to have your body invaded, your mind splintered, and your soul shattered. You need to let our rage and our compassion connect us so we can change the paradigm of global rape.

“There are approximately one billion women on the planet, one billion women on the planet, who have been violated.

“ONE BILLION WOMEN.

"The time is now."

On February 14, 2013, we are calling one billion women, and all the men and people who love them, to walk out of their jobs, to walk out of their homes, to walk out of their schools, to walk out and strike and to find your group, find your posse, find your friends, find your stadium, and dance and dance, until the violence stops. Because we are over it.

Am I? Well, one thing for sure— given only two choices of what I get to be —"bitch" or "sad lady— I'll take bitch. That's how I take responsibility.

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

I understand your point of view because, as a gay person, I've heard the same argument about priorities being made with regard to addressing our issues. But, seriously, I think you need to cut Thom some slack here. I don't think he was suggesting that women's health or the mysogonystic nature of our society are less important issues than, say, the economy or corporate influence over politics. I've been watching his coverage of the contraception controversy and he has not pulled back or been dismissive so far as I have seen. In fact, quite the opposite. I can't speak for Thom but, having listened to him for years now, I anticipate that what his remark intended to convey is that the claim that this was a "religious" issue was the side issue and that health was the real overriding issue. I may be wrong but I just don't buy the premise that Thom was being dismissive of women or issues important to women. And I don't perceive him to be the type of person that has trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time so I don't imagine that he would ever think it necessary to ignore one important issue at the expense of another.

I've said this before but it bears repeating: Republicans invented this controversy over birth control coverage to call Obama's commitment to his Christian faith into question but this particular stink bomb backfired on them.

mdhess's picture
mdhess
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Apr. 9, 2010 11:43 pm

I think we can all agree that Thom has not treated women's or gay/lesbian issues as special interest or sideshows.

Eve Ensler had a great interview on Democracy Now about working with rape victims in the Congo who have gone back to their villages as empowered leaders challenging the rape culture at the village level as well as the national. What amazed her was coming back to the US and finding this GOPimp garbage misogyny running amok. How, she asked, are we supposed to advance the role of women when we are retrograde to the women of the Congo?

DRC's picture
DRC
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Mdhess wrote: "I've been watching his coverage of the contraception controversy and he has not pulled back or been dismissive so far as I have seen. In fact, quite the opposite. I can't speak for Thom but, having listened to him for years now, I anticipate that what his remark intended to convey is that the claim that this was a "religious" issue was the side issue and that health was the real overriding issue. I may be wrong but I just don't buy the premise that Thom was being dismissive of women or issues important to women."

I didn't say Thom "was being dismissive of women," Md. I wish I had the exchange between Thom and his viewer, but, as I recall, the idea was that Republicans bring up issues such as birth control as a distraction from the "important issues," such as the economy. And Thom agreed with that. Now, that doesn't mean that Thom is dismissive of women, literally, and with malice. I'm just saying, it's an unspoken understanding that issues such as birth control are, as social issues, "side issues." I don't think that's such a far out observation. It doesn't mean that Thom is a radical misogynist, but, given that the entire culture is misogynistic, we have these understandings that go unchallenged.

I've been a fan of Thom for a long time too. And, honestly, this kerfuffle over Rush's comments is the only time I've ever heard Thom spend much time on women's issues at all. In fact, he seemed to pick up rather late on the subject this time. One night, at the beginning of it, I noticed that Rachel Maddow was all over the subject, but Thom was onto something else. If that's unfair, sorry. It's what I noticed.

Whatever, it's important to me, and to me the issues of misogyny, of discrimination, seem quite central to our problems as a society. Fair enough?

Zenzoe
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

I think that legitimate (non-Lush-Limbaugh) broadcasters, who have to actually think about what they say don't always have enough time on air to consider new arguments thoroughly. I'm not accusing Thom of being as dull witted as Ed Schultz, who will utter "Um-kay" as a response to the most horrendously stupid statements, but anyone can have a cognitive lapse.

Thom is careful about what he says and he is almost always aware of the nuance of the argument. Sometimes, even as thoughtful men, we fail to see what we have accepted as fair dialogue about the sexes and their differences, however. We forget that our historical dominance is that of brutes over the weaker and not earned through our deeds. It's not like men have turned the world into a paradise when they certainly had enough power to do so.

It's also pretty clear that, until recently in history, most women had been excluded from even helping to create policy, except where they were Royalty.They were relegated to lives of servitude under their bepenised masters...I mean owners.

It's time that we accept reality for what it is, history for what it is, sexism for what it is, racism for what it is. The denial stage is over. The human animal is no better, no more noble than a bear when he's taking a crap in the woods. It is only through our actions that we can prove ourselves to be transcendent of our nature and, thus, deserving of the title "human" and have it mean something. Forget all of the voo doo, it comes down to choices. We know what human choices are and we know what monkeys do to each other. What's it going to be, monkey or human?

Until we begin to teach and govern from the perspective that huamans-including women FOR CHRISTS SAKE- are valuable and should be cared for, there will be no individual sense of value. It enables war on the macro level and, on the micro level, allows rapists and other thugs to feel justified in acting out their own lust for violence and control on an unsuspecting child or woman and it allows the victim to question herself. Did I do something to deserve this, she will ask herself, when she should be asking what's wrong with society.

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D_NATURED
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Oct. 20, 2010 8:47 pm

Zenzoe, I think Thom sees the Culture War as a distraction and regressive turn away from the essential issues of democracy and economic policy. The equality of women is part of the larger equality of rights and inclusion where he is fully supportive. Having to defend the right to choose is "distracting" but important. Having to confront bad theology to get gay and lesbian rights also makes not liberal sense and is just defeating Rightwing diversion.

It is like having to oppose stupid wars when peace requires a lot more. We ought to be focused on peace and diplomacy, but we have to argue that Saddam Hussein really has no weapons of mass destruction against lies. Playing defense is the issue.

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DRC
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

I think issues of human dignity are always important. I guess that Thom's point was that conservatives have been trying to re-open issues which have already been settled, like the fact that the public believes that birth control should be available to people. It's sort of like re-opening the issue of whether or not the world is flat, or gosh, maybe whether or not global warming is for real.

I wish there were more discussion of real women's issues, issues such as misogyny and male domination of women in ways subtle and not so subtle, and I also wish there were more input in the political arena by women.

However, regarding the other thread started by Dhavid, you seemed to implicate me as "one of the boys." Isn't that a stretch, Zenzoe? Am I guilty of being too busy to spend much time on this site recently, of having computer issues, worries over my father who may be close to dying (and who has overdosed twice on anti-anxiety drugs recently and had panic attacks), or being locked in a massive struggle with conservatives on another website (with which I could use some help)? I never approved of Alberto's toilet comment. I officially chastise him now, and he and I have often clashed as you know, but that comment has not been high on my radar with all the other things going on. Alberto is certainly not part of any "club"of mine. Besides, my wife and I went around the house cleaning the toilets together after she returned from Taiwan. Cleaning toilets is not necessarily a feminine activity, although it certainly has that stereotypical connotation while firefighting has a masculine connotation. Perhaps you paint us boys with too broad a brush sometimes. Wouldn't being subject to such guilt by association make you a little angry? Or perhaps I misunderstood your angry comments directed at "all of us" boys.

That's all I have time for today. I have another long day of teaching ahead of me tomorrow.

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Natural Lefty
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote DRC:

I think we can all agree that Thom has not treated women's or gay/lesbian issues as special interest or sideshows.

Ditto - I think we can all agree that Thom has not treated women's or gay/lesbian issues as special interest or sideshows. Thom is a thoughtful man too.

And, I think we can all agree that women still have a ways to go before they achieve parity with men

I think we could agree that if women were on par with the fellows this idiotic debacle would NEVER EVER have occurred. It's clear these guys who provide our governance had no idea what a hot bed this topic is - or why it would be. And as limbaugh woefully demonstrated - these old guys have no idea how birth control works. Now if these old geezers want to stay in ancient times fine with me - put them out to pasture, give them some green grass, fresh air & sunshine before they hurt themselves.

media_muse
Joined:
Dec. 10, 2011 3:09 pm

I'm a bit tired at the moment. It's been an awful day, and I don't have much energy left for discussion or replies, except for this:

I just finished watching the movie, The Whistleblower, coincidentally, which didn't exactly speak for the humanity of males. If you haven't seen it, the review attached to the link I provided gives a good and fair summation. As the author writes there, "It [the movie] is based on a true story about sex trafficking but doesn't over-simplify or sensationalize what happened. In this story, while the traffickers are sinister people out to make money, they could be someone we know. Frighteningly, in this story, many of them work for international and national governmental entities and private contractors working for governments." And I would agree, it doesn't "over-simplify or sensationalize," but it does give you a sense of the sickening brutality women and girls experience for the pleasure and satisfaction of middle class, everyday, "normal" men, and the extent to which these men will go to protect against the revelation of such torture against women for their sake. I kept thinking throughout, "My god, the unspeakable things men do to women!" And, as the film explained, "sex" trafficking (more like rape trafficking) is one of the fastest-growing criminal industries, with 2.5 million people being trafficked worldwide.

Oh, but it grows the economy!

As long as mothers, daughters and sisters have been, and are still being, kidnapped, tortured, raped and sold into slavery, please don't tell me "women's issues" shouldn't be front and center.

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Zenzoe I bless you from the top of your head to the bottoms of your feet - may you walk in beauty. May your walk refresh & renew you to you.

I appreciate you posting here - it is another part of the scaffold which needs to be dismantled before humanity slides any further backwards.The sun needs to shine on this to heal the out of control power given to obscene power over another..

Unfortunately, I don't see much change happening until women control their own bodies. When that happens I believe women will stop reinforcing patriarchy more strongly than men. (The beautiful & incomparable Marion Woodman speaks eloquently to this.) When that happens our world will change.

Until then, as DCR wrote somewhere in these blogs, men will be brutes. These brutes mostly brutalize each other which is another great sadness. And, as you have posted, they brutalize those less powerful than themselves. But they are taught to be brutal to themselves, essentially a process of continuing THEIR own self-circumcision - not of the already removed fore skin - but the on going daily moment by moment removal of any part of their feeling body.

Whenever we keep one part of humanity down that keeps all of us down. I hope women can find compassion for their own enforcement of patriarchy and forgive themselves & men for this mess we are in. This is the only way out.

media_muse
Joined:
Dec. 10, 2011 3:09 pm

I'm not the only whiny bitch, I see: We Need a Women's Rights Reawakening, by Heather Mallick at Common Dreams. "Women have few public defenders right now and it’s our fault. As the years passed, we grew overconfident. We took our hard-won rights for granted, we assumed our enemies accepted our triumphs — abortion rights, equal pay, work equality, contraception — as a done deal. We underestimated how much we were hated, and look at us now."

But Rush Limbaugh's sexist slurs represent an intentional "distraction" from "more important issues," rather than evidence of a common thread within all conservative values and hoped-for policies, that is, fear of the feminine as an abstract principle? So, let's not look at that thread, let's not think about how women must be denigrated, abused, trivialized, and denied equal opportunity and human rights, for the purpose of ensuring the value of masculinist policies; let's ignore that— it's only the Culture Wars? (I must say, DRC, I don't quite get your comment in regard to that, as such issues not making "liberal sense," etc.) Well, I disagree. You cannot separate out social issues from other issues, as if all issues are not interrelated. To my mind, that's just the same ol' same ol' misogyny at work: Social issues = feminine; War-Economy-Energy = masculine, thus, guess which issues count the most?

Rush Limbaugh hates women, because Rush Limbaugh fears the feminine in himself. War mongers are war mongers, because they've been conditioned to deny their "soft," empathic side. And so forth.

D_NATURED wrote, with great insight: "Until we begin to teach and govern from the perspective that humans-including women FOR CHRISTS SAKE- are valuable and should be cared for, there will be no individual sense of value. It enables war on the macro level and, on the micro level, allows rapists and other thugs to feel justified in acting out their own lust for violence and control on an unsuspecting child or woman and it allows the victim to question herself. Did I do something to deserve this, she will ask herself, when she should be asking what's wrong with society."

Women are HALF the population, at least. Until we begin to take a serious look at the meanings underneath misogyny —the abstract, symbolic ideas— nothing will change for us as a species. When a Rush Limbaugh blathers idiotically about women, how about calling him on his fear, his weakness. After all, such blustering is a cover for weakness, as is war a weak alternative to diplomacy, or torture a weak alternative to empathetic questioning, rather than the "tough choices" those things pretend to be.

Media_muse, this did become a "hot bed topic" for a reason, I think you agree— IT'S IMPORTANT. And Thom, as I just heard him on the TV, still dismisses it as a distraction. Good going. Thanks for your insight, Thom.

NL, you say, "I never approved of Alberto's toilet comment. I officially chastise him now..." And you couldn't write that within the thread when I complained about it TWICE? Instead, you preferred to ignore my angry complaints, posting some other opinion you had, as if I'd never been there? That was highly unusual for you. Maybe that's why it hurt so deeply, to see you disregard my complaint in that way. Do you think it helps that you care about women's rights and equality in the abstract, if you disregard your "friend" for real?

Zenzoe
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Media_muse, I hadn't seen your comment, when I posted/wrote mine, underneath it. Now, I've read it, its generosity, beauty and grace, and I thank you so much for that. Now I'm just going to enjoy its quality in my heart, and be quiet for awhile. : )

OMG, and now Nimblecivet just posted something too. I haven't read it yet...I'll be back...

Zenzoe
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

I don't recall the specific words Thom used in validating the caller's comments, but I do recall they seemed to validate the idea that women's issues are secondary in importance. I think he mishandled it and meant to say that Rush's comments were of secondary importance, but I could be wrong. I think he feels trapped in something of a catch-22 sensing, perhaps correctly, that the specific incident of Rush's comment was orchestrated to distract attention from other issues.

I would point out that Mrs. Fluk (sp?) is nevertheless a victim of this scenario as it is impossible to conceive that she is a "co-conspirator" in this scenario of Rush making his comments. Also of course, the fact that the "conspiracy theory" is correct would not imply in itself that the issue at hand is less important than what is being distracted from. The fact that advertisers are pulling out of Rush's show and that there is a petition to have him taken off the air (http://signon.org/sign/clear-channel-discontinue.fb1?source=s.fb&r_by=1389493) indicates that his attempt to gain publicity has backfired on him. It seems that women are organized enough to have been prepared for this, and now the attempt by the right to drive this issue will thus fail. So, the point is I think that the "conspiracy theory" can be correct and nonetheless Zenzoe is quite correct to call Thom out.

nimblecivet's picture
nimblecivet
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Nimblecivet, did you edit? I liked both versions. ; )

Anyway, I appreciate the overall balance of your comment. You make some interesting points, especially the one about Fluke (respectful correction) being a "victim of this scenario." Certainly, the right may have a conscious agenda for distracting the public from issues that threaten their power, if revealed, but women have their own agenda, which is to support women and human rights, and that's what Limbaugh incited by his stupidity.

And thanks for saying, "Zenzoe is quite correct to call Thom out." I feel a little bit guilty about doing that, knowing what a great guy he is, and also not really knowing for sure how often he has talked about women's issues. I just tend to push back, if I notice something odd.

Btw, nice profile pic. Quite speedy.

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

MORE WHINY BITCHES! Thank you Zenzoe. And you made your posting while I was responding to the Undeniable need for more whining women.

media_muse
Joined:
Dec. 10, 2011 3:09 pm

Zenzoe, we all agree that you are not giving voice to side issues, so even if it is a comment about omission rather than commission, your voice is needed and welcomed. I like sassy. I even like brassy. I think you are sensible and rational and generally diplomatic, but should you go over that line into something else, I don't think you are going to offend anyone who does not deserve it.

Having to do rehab for regressives is frustrating to people who want to get somewhere. I think that is what makes this shocking misogyny seem so blast from the past to anyone who has welcomed and embraced liberation. On the other hand, it is a reminder of how far we have not gone. The idea that commercialized 'feminism' is the real thing also needs to be raised. Gender equality is my issue too, and I am always thankful to be awakened to what I am letting pass because my focus is elsewhere.

The fact that you feel a bit guilty is enough reason to know that you will not be callous. Keep on pushing, and "you go, girl."

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DRC
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

I think that this is a fascinating discussion. I have changed my mind and now accept your premise Zenzoe. I don't fault Thom but I think that, like all of us, he is still evolving and sees the World through his own prism which, in his case, is that of a man who grew up in the sixties. Your point, made very eloquently, that even someone as enlightened as Thom can fall victim to the cultural bias buit into a patriarchal society is a brilliant insight into the genesis of Limbaugh's remarks and why and how anyone, even Limbaugh, could feel entitled to make them. There is a power dynamic at work here with layers like an onion that include religious dogmas, socialization, stereotypical thinking, historical precedents and on and on. Limbaugh attacked the message put forward by Ms Fluke by debasing her as a human being because in his world misogony is an acceptable way to control women and then Thom minimized the sin when he labelled the attack a distraction from the real issues of the campaign and lumped it in with the rest of the culture war rhetoric on the right. This is a sort of variation on a complaint I have heard in the past about how liberals trot out the abortion issue every time the election cycle comes around just to draw in women voters but then do nothing real to protect the integrity of Roe v Wade or to further empower women once the election cycle is over and thus are engaging in their own kind of misogony.

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mdhess
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Apr. 9, 2010 11:43 pm

Undeniably this is important Zenzoe, Undeniably we have many whiny bitches and Undeniably we need MORE.

Undeniably I've been called a whiny bitch - and more. Undeniably name calling will happen again. Undeniably I believe this is a petulant & childish behavior. Undeniably I'm capable of this behavior too - my personal favorite right now is 'dingle balls' - there's just something so jiggley about it that makes some of this nonsense palatable.

Undeniably limbaugh hates women. Undeniably it's clear he also hates parts of himself. Undeniably, like limbaugh, women have been taught to deny their soft side too.

Undeniably Thom takes a broader format perspective for his shows. Undeniably he is kept quite busy fending off all those 'Crazy Alerts' & I salute his efforts. I don't see this as minimizing women or their issues.

Undeniably we need a broader forum for this festering, insidious poisonous issue of the dismal treatment for women here in the usa. BTW, what do you think about what happened in our last presidential election - our racist country will tolerate a black man before a white woman? Undeniably, this elephant goes undeniably undiscussed.

Undeniably, women are over 50 % of the populace. Undeniably, subjected to all kinds of obscene over lording. Undeniably this needs to change.

Undeniably both the male & female are victims of this practice. Undeniably our statistics show this.

Undeniably this is a hot bed. Undeniably it ought to be

Undeniably you are angry. Undeniably you ought to be. Undeniably we have different ways of expressing this. Undeniably this is healthy.

Undeniably some poor fellow is going to have to re-formulate our thoughts & regurgitate them here so he can explain - in his words for our benefit - in hopes we grok what he thinks we mis-understand.Undeniably he does it because he DOES care about the female. Undeniably he does this because he has had to continually tear off his feeling skin so he does know NOT how to feel - for himself or another.

Undeniably women use patriarchy to enforce patriarchy. Undeniably the lack of consciousness to this shadow part will undeniably keep us tethered to the victimology part.

Undeniably things will not be different until things are not the same.

media_muse
Joined:
Dec. 10, 2011 3:09 pm

Zenzoe, I honestly didn't even read the offending part of Alberto's post when it first came out, which shows that I don't take a lot of what he says seriously (speaking of not taking certain things seriously), and I am very busy. Anyway, I posted a response to him on the original thread.

I have often heard Thom talk about the importance of empowering women, so I have never felt that he takes women's issues lightly or degrades women in any way, but like mdhess said, he says the world through his own prism as a guy who grew up in the 1960s. On the other hand, Republicans are waging a war on women, virtually speaking. The misogynists among them are the real enemy. I have come to the conclusion in recent years that Repubicans are -- at least now -- dominated by misogynist, racist, bullying haters -- the ugly, angry white man. This is apparent in my recent battles with conservatives on another, supposedly non-political website.

Speaking of hearing Thom, i am afraid I may no longer be able to hear him as of next Monday, since apparently, he is being taken off the air from the radio station I use to listen to him, KTLK 1150.

Natural Lefty's picture
Natural Lefty
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

I'm going to think about all the interesting, kind, healing, thoughtful, brilliant, poetic, perplexing, challenging comments, above, for awhile, and then I'm going down to the mailbox to get my Netflix for tonight (BBC crime drama, oh boy!—at least there, the bad guys get it in the end).

Carry on... tah tah... Cheers... for now.

Oh, and yeah— I kinda think Limbaugh is so good at "distracting" with those "side issues," not because he's clever and knows what he's doing, but because that's just who he is—a big, fat pig. You know?

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Zenzoe-"Oh, and yeah— I kinda think Limbaugh is so good at "distracting" with those "side issues," not because he's clever and knows what he's doing, but because that's just who he is—a big, fat pig. You know?"

So does that mean Olbermann, Maher, Taibbi, Matthews et al are large obese swine, also? Or do they get a pass because they are supposedly part of the "progressesive" caring community? Where is the "war on women" crowd? No hypocriticals there, huh?

http://amerpundit.com/2012/03/07/a-short-history-of-left-wing-attacks-on-women/

bullwinkle
Joined:
Dec. 28, 2011 2:31 pm

Oh, have you checked your sources, bullwinkle? Maybe all those misogynist slanders were all made up. Maybe not. I suspect not--and, if not, then it just goes to show you that, as usual for this clan, they will tolerate in their friends what they condemn in their enemies. Which brings new light, as the one who condemns me to hell should know, to Jesus' instruction to 'love your enemies'....

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Kerry
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Bullwinkle, I don't recall any in the list of your liberals as having used sexist, or racist, or homophobic slurs against anyone with the same kind of arrogance and ignorance with which Limbaugh cast his slurs against Fluke. Sure, they have criticized, and perhaps from time to time insulted individuals, but not with the same tone of prejudice. Their targets usually deserve criticism.

Quote DRC:

Zenzoe, we all agree that you are not giving voice to side issues, so even if it is a comment about omission rather than commission, your voice is needed and welcomed. I like sassy. I even like brassy. I think you are sensible and rational and generally diplomatic, but should you go over that line into something else, I don't think you are going to offend anyone who does not deserve it.

Having to do rehab for regressives is frustrating to people who want to get somewhere. I think that is what makes this shocking misogyny seem so blast from the past to anyone who has welcomed and embraced liberation. On the other hand, it is a reminder of how far we have not gone. The idea that commercialized 'feminism' is the real thing also needs to be raised. Gender equality is my issue too, and I am always thankful to be awakened to what I am letting pass because my focus is elsewhere.

The fact that you feel a bit guilty is enough reason to know that you will not be callous. Keep on pushing, and "you go, girl."

Thanks so very much for that DRC. I'm not sure what "commercialized 'feminism'" is, but other than that, I'm warmed and encouraged by your friendly, compassionate words. I think of you as among the most eloquent and most consistently true-to-progressive-values of any of our progressives here on this forum. And I envy your capacity for deep reflection very much, even though sometimes I fear your thoughts are "over my head." Anyway, I am softened by what you said there. It's such a help.

Quote mdhess:

I think that this is a fascinating discussion. I have changed my mind and now accept your premise Zenzoe. I don't fault Thom but I think that, like all of us, he is still evolving and sees the World through his own prism which, in his case, is that of a man who grew up in the sixties. Your point, made very eloquently, that even someone as enlightened as Thom can fall victim to the cultural bias buit into a patriarchal society is a brilliant insight into the genesis of Limbaugh's remarks and why and how anyone, even Limbaugh, could feel entitled to make them. There is a power dynamic at work here with layers like an onion that include religious dogmas, socialization, stereotypical thinking, historical precedents and on and on. Limbaugh attacked the message put forward by Ms Fluke by debasing her as a human being because in his world misogony is an acceptable way to control women and then Thom minimized the sin when he labelled the attack a distraction from the real issues of the campaign and lumped it in with the rest of the culture war rhetoric on the right. This is a sort of variation on a complaint I have heard in the past about how liberals trot out the abortion issue every time the election cycle comes around just to draw in women voters but then do nothing real to protect the integrity of Roe v Wade or to further empower women once the election cycle is over and thus are engaging in their own kind of misogony.

That's so very worth re-posting here, mdhess. Incredibly great. When I read it the first time last night, it was with bells ringing, "hallelujah!" (the same with media_muse, next, btw) I don't know...it's so brave and honest. And, to have someone just get it so well, well, I could write a book about what it's like to not be taken seriously for a long time and then find that you are taken seriously— I mean, wow. But the simpatico thoughts there, such as, "There is a power dynamic at work here with layers like an onion that include religious dogmas, socialization, stereotypical thinking, historical precedents and on and on," really make sense to me, and I'm so grateful you said that.

Quote media_muse:

Undeniably this is important Zenzoe, Undeniably we have many whiny bitches and Undeniably we need MORE.

Undeniably I've been called a whiny bitch - and more. Undeniably name calling will happen again. Undeniably I believe this is a petulant & childish behavior. Undeniably I'm capable of this behavior too - my personal favorite right now is 'dingle balls' - there's just something so jiggley about it that makes some of this nonsense palatable....

http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2012/03/womens-issues-are-side-issues#...

..and the rest of your "Undeniables," media_muse, WOW. THAT WAS SUCH A POEM!!! Very brilliant. I loved it. I'm printing it and framing it. And now I'm thinking we should start a movement— "Whiny Bitches Unite!" I can see the t-shirt now. ; ) But, really, I'm so glad you're on this forum. What a breath of fresh air, if you'll pardon the cliché. I mean it sincerely.

I think I mentioned before, someplace on this forum, that I discovered on my last job that I'd been paid less than the men where I worked, and that this had been going on for ten years. And I'm talking about men doing exactly what I was doing— graphic design. My supervisor, a Republican woman, one day came up to me and whispered that, "hey, this just isn't right..." and so she complained to the higher-ups to have the situation rectified (prior to her, my pay had been determined by a male supervisor). Well, I never made a stink about it, because I needed that job, and the health insurance that came with it, and I was in the "don't give them the power to determine your fate..." mode. Once I left, it was on my own terms, and I feel really great about that.

It must be very difficult for some people to imagine what it's like to be undervalued, because of your sex alone. Well, apparently, the task of imagining it must seem to require supernatural powers, because some people still just don't seem to get just how wounding it is to feel undervalued in that way. They can imagine the humiliation people of color feel over the various and endless insults to their personhood; but somehow women don't count for nuthin' there—we're supposed to accept humiliation as an unfortunate, but unchangeable, fact of life, like having your period, or going through menopause.

We thought the woman-hating was over! Now it's back, like the cancer you thought you'd eradicated.

Hi Kerry. Kumbaya!

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Bill Maher is not a "Leftie." Obermann and he both use hot rhetoric and take heat from Progressives too. The Chris Matthews quotes on Hillary are puzzling. I suspect serious context lifting because he is more centrist and generally liked the Clintons. Could he be quoting others or be worried that Hillary was falling into their memes making some mistakes in her own strategy? Again, not what Matthews is likely to have said straight up.

Malkin is a mess. Palin and Bachmann are public idiots, and happen to be women. These quotes are about them and not their gender. I suspect the same with Taibi.

I am surprised that Ann Coulter was not mentioned, again a deserving target with her ridiculous bimbo image and weird mind and mouth.

There is a measure of equality when women do not get a pass for being stupid, offensive or outrageous and are called on it. I don't give the "c" word a pass. I don't hear anyone on the Left giving those who use it a pass. I think there is some justice to feminists being angry at Conservative women who support misognyist policies, but I don't remember any sexist language being used about Phyllis Schafley or Anita Bryant. The FAUX "newsmodels" and "sportsbabes" look more like the women on calendars in auto repair shops than examples of female equality in a professional sense. I have no problem with them being called bimbos if they present themselves that way.

It is about the 'work' they do, not the idea that women cannot be equal or have to fit male standards of 'babe' to be on tv. There are a few MSNBC women commentators who are gorgeous and who say smart things as well. That there are real brains behind their beauty is great.

But, let us grant that sexism, homophobia and misogyny, like race, are deeply implanted cultural memes that can even show up on the Left. The big difference is that when, and if, they do materialize in a Left commentator, that person gets called down, suspended and made accountable. On the Right, it becomes a badge of honor and only the worst repeat offenders ever have it bite them on the ass. To compare the Limbaugh ugliness with any of the examples listed is neither fair nor balanced.

Sorry Kerry, you are way off base here. We hold our friends to even higher standards than we do our opponents. You seem to have lost your mind and any sense of fairness in your victim status whining on this Board.

DRC's picture
DRC
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Obviously, I have messed this up. So I'll try this -

Thanks Zenzoe for your thoughts. Thanks mdhess, Thanks DRC

Zenzoe]</p> <p>&nbsp;[quote=mdhess wrote:

I think that this is a fascinating discussion...

From Zenzoe: And now I'm thinking we should start a movement— "Whiny Bitches Unite!" I can see the t-shirt now. ; )

Undeniably a fabulous idea Zenzoe. Undeniably ahead of it's time. I have undeniable concerns it would be used for target practice by one of the loopey loonies under the drugged influence on the misogynistic koolaid currently flowing in our waters.

Welcome to life wide awake in amerika zenzoe. I too have had the privilege to enjoy the right to work for less - due to my uterus - for over 40 years now. So I've had ample experience to experience almost all the ways this happens & how the fellows spin it.

Zenzoe - what you said about wounding people & its effect is laser like zen I appreciate! Well said and unfortunately, I believe people do know how wounding it is - that's why they do it. It's a good manipulative technique. Works really well with conditional christianity - when everything is either black or white, bad or good, wrong or right. With out the colored nuances which flesh out real life & real people.

woo- hoo - let's hear it for Kumbaya Koolaid!

Zenzoe thanks for your support! I appreciate what you have offered to all of us. Yesterday Sean, my 14 year old nephew thought the 'undeniable' was repetitive when he read my posing. I admitted to him he had a valid point. And, I saw it as an experiment with my thought process & life experiences. ;~)

Anyway Sean's Mom had a good laugh - she needs one. It's hard to watch my beautiful sister, a single mom with advanced parkinson's disease - left for dead by our death panels. She needs to laugh whenever she can. I wish I had her courage to live with all of the humor & dignity she does. She is my muse for inspiration. She has more courage in her crumpled little toe than all of these Hypocritical, Hateful He-men beating their withered chests, while another body part is pumped up full - from their socialist job & its viagra provision.

media_muse
Joined:
Dec. 10, 2011 3:09 pm

Thanks, DRC, for adding that— I hadn't read the quotes and didn't feel like being specific there. Maher is definitely not a lefty, and his thoughts on women sometimes seem sexist to me. He's a libertarian, no?

Media_muse, didn't you tell your nephew that repetition is a poetic device (not that I'm telling you anything)? http://www.uni.edu/~gotera/CraftOfPoetry/repetition.html   The cadence of your Undeniable worked great. It set an insistent tone and gathered momentum as it went along. Perhaps, though, only if you've built up the rage, can you find satisfaction in such cadences. Your nephew is young yet. Anyway, Undeniable seemed similar to what bodies of water do, when dams break. It's all a matter of physics. ; )

Wasn't one day this week some sort of important day for African Americans, and didn't Thom make special mention of it, then interview Jesse Jackson, or someone (I obviously haven't been watching non-stop)? I can't find it, so I'm probably wrong. But I also didn't notice Thom mention that today is International Women's Day— or did he, and I just missed it?

(btw, anybody who can no longer listen to Thom on the radio should change from Cable TV to Dish Network RIGHT NOW. Thom appears on FSTV (ch. 9415) often, or several times a day (3 hours worth during the daytime), and you'll be able to get FSTV with a "Welcome Package," their cheapest package. And I don't work for them, don't worry.)

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

I'm glad to see that this discussion has floated back up on the message board because there was an afterthought I had that I think is very important to the discussion. I have thought for several years now that the way Nancy Pelosi was treated as Speaker of the House was a shameful example of the double standard that exists in our society. When a man becomes Speaker and is vilified for his political positions he is attacked for his positions while still being accorded the respect due the position but as soon as the position went to a woman the gloves came off and the long tradition of showing respect went out the window. At first I was amazed that women everywhere weren't infuriated by the treatment of Speaker Pelosi but then it occurred to me that for women this is really just a matter of course.

Here are just a few easily found examples of vitriol aimed at the former Speaker:

http://magicnegrowatch.blogspot.com/2009/01/i-really-hate-nancy-pelosi.html

http://www.ihatethemedia.com/nancy-pelosi-joke-sheep

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-DvfZe2S5E

http://www.mediaite.com/online/andrew-breitbart-goes-on-tirade-against-bitch-nancy-pelosi-and-hollywood-sympathy-fck-janeane-garofalo/

http://www.zazzle.com/i+hate+nancy+pelosi+bumperstickers

mdhess's picture
mdhess
Joined:
Apr. 9, 2010 11:43 pm

Zenzoe-"Bullwinkle, I don't recall any in the list of your liberals as having used sexist, or racist, or homophobic slurs against anyone with the same kind of arrogance and ignorance with which Limbaugh cast his slurs against Fluke. Sure, they have criticized, and perhaps from time to time insulted individuals, but not with the same tone of prejudice. Their targets usually deserve criticism."

You are a laughable hypocrit. The same kind of arrogance and ignorance as Limbo? Could it be that liberal men hate well known conservative women because conservative women are often attractive. As opposed to well known liberal women? Many of the attractive liberal women are lesbians, actually men in drag, or so strongly and militantly feminist that they consider men a lesser species of animal life. Conservative women with actual notions of honour, self-respect and decency would never sleep with liberal men.

Liberal men rail with impotent and sexually frustrated rage at the conservative values of conservative women. When conservative women are outspoken like Ann Coulter or Michelle Malkin, they are denounced as unfeminine and shrill. Yet when conservative women are quietly dignified like First Lady Laura Bush, they are derided as useless, docile, limp and dull.

So, can it be concluded that liberals hate conservative women simply because of their conservatism, rather than any valid objection to their public behaviour? As opposed to the liberal rants of misandrists, execpt of course the Kumbya clan here, huh?

The progressive double standard only reinforces their hypocracy and idiocy.

bullwinkle
Joined:
Dec. 28, 2011 2:31 pm

I have never criticized conservative women for being attractive. I have said that dressing to male fantasy is not my idea of beauty and kind of creeps me out as a man. I think the bimbo look that is pervasive on FAUX is akin to Black guys trying to pass as White instead of looking Black. Again, itis not something that I regard as genuine pride or post-racial/post-sexism.

I ridicule conservative women for what they say because I am not sexist and do not give them a pass because they are just girls who don't know better. I think true equality is being able to be as bad as men and taking the same heat.

Bull, you are a failed taunter.

DRC's picture
DRC
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote bullwinkle:

So, can it be concluded that liberals hate conservative women simply because of their conservatism, rather than any valid objection to their public behaviour?

The progressive double standard only reinforces their hypocracy and idiocy.

No is the answer to your question. And if it was a rhetorical question then the answer is a rhetorical no.

I am a ambidextrous patriot with dyslexia so I am qualified to answer. (If you were ambidextrous you too would realize that you just paid homage to several double standards of you own kind.) But back to your answer.... I do not believe that liberals hate these conservative women you mention here. I think any reasonable person is actually...hmm...dare I say it? Dare I use the "E" word? Ok....this is hard because this word has disappeared from our vocabulary. Along with that it many folks are limping along without it. Along with that, it seems to be politically incorrect to indulge in it during this time of flexing 'free speech' muscles. But your question - rhetorical or not - has an answer. And that is, well, ....embarrassed. Folks are embarrassed for these women because while they may look good but when open their mouths - with their talking points - they look ugly - they are without any womanly or manly decency.

Thanks for asking! When folks start asking questions they open up their minds to other possibilites and that's what we need. Many blessings to you.

media_muse
Joined:
Dec. 10, 2011 3:09 pm
Quote mdhess:

I'm glad to see that this discussion has floated back up on the message board because there was an afterthought I had that I think is very important to the discussion. I have thought for several years now that the way Nancy Pelosi was treated as Speaker of the House was a shameful example of the double standard that exists in our society. When a man becomes Speaker and is vilified for his political positions he is attacked for his positions while still being accorded the respect due the position but as soon as the position went to a woman the gloves came off and the long tradition of showing respect went out the window. At first I was amazed that women everywhere weren't infuriated by the treatment of Speaker Pelosi but then it occurred to me that for women this is really just a matter of course.

Here are just a few easily found examples of vitriol aimed at the former Speaker:

http://magicnegrowatch.blogspot.com/2009/01/i-really-hate-nancy-pelosi.html

http://www.ihatethemedia.com/nancy-pelosi-joke-sheep

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-DvfZe2S5E

http://www.mediaite.com/online/andrew-breitbart-goes-on-tirade-against-bitch-nancy-pelosi-and-hollywood-sympathy-fck-janeane-garofalo/

http://www.zazzle.com/i+hate+nancy+pelosi+bumperstickers

I'm glad too mdhss - clearly this needs to be talked about. Your posting provide us nuances, & the over looked obvious. The examples listed here are examples of what I just accept as part of what it means to be a woman in amerika. It's just another surreal example of how women are simultaneously hallowed innocents needing protection & whoring prostitutes. When we are allowed to be real women we might be permitted other possibilities than these two simplistic extremes.

Like other real life issues this pink elephant has been swept away in to the dark hole of what we don't want to look at. Whiny is ok for Rush, or Newt but it's not really ok for women. Instead we must suck it up or be called some sort of derogatory name which usually is an offshoot of a feminine quality or body part.

media_muse
Joined:
Dec. 10, 2011 3:09 pm

DRC, post #36 on "Ron Paul takes money from racists" thread-"The essential point about racism is that it is a problem of Whiteness, not Blackness. I am a European-American by ethnic heritage, and I try to shed all the vestiges of my White cultural imprint while I hope to help others become aware of their own need to do the same. I understand why my ethnic heritage and pale complexion allows me to "pass" for White where people of color experience a different America than I. I learned a lot about that by being 'adopted' as Black by my bandmates in Indianapolis where they treated me as truly blind to color and convinced other Black Naptowners that I was also Black. "

DRC, post #40 on "Ron Paul takes money from racists" thread-"When my black friends convinced other black people that I was black, I enjoyed their joke. I felt a deep affirmation because they know a lot more about being black than I ever will. It went beyond being their white friend, but I cannot know what it is like to deal with White from the outside. I can only learn from them and appreciate how blind I find so many of my light-complexion fellow human beings to their continuing Whiteness. Someday, this too may pass, but it has not passed yet."

DRC post #33 on this thread-"I think the bimbo look that is pervasive on FAUX is akin to Black guys trying to pass as White instead of looking Black. Again, itis not something that I regard as genuine pride or post-racial/post-sexism."

I wonder if your black so-called friends are not laughing at your condescending hypocracy. You are truly a prig. Does anyone else notice the hypocracy of DRC? I know it is impossible for the Kumbya clan to recognize any of the condescension and disgusting hypocracy that is paraded here, it is just "progressive" bullshit.

Maher called Palin a CUNT. I don't recall the left getting their panties in a wad over that as they have Limbo's rant about a nobody.

bullwinkle
Joined:
Dec. 28, 2011 2:31 pm
Quote bullwinkle:

Many of the attractive liberal women are lesbians, actually men in drag, or so strongly and militantly feminist that they consider men a lesser species of animal life. Conservative women with actual notions of honour, self-respect and decency would never sleep with liberal men.

LOL! Wow, I didn't know you were a caricature of a rabid moose. You should write for Colbert. I love you. You've given me one of the best laughs of the day!

Now let me surprise you: You said, "When conservative women are outspoken like Ann Coulter or Michelle Malkin, they are denounced as unfeminine and shrill." And I think that's true. Now that I think about it, Ann Coulter has been ridiculed for her long, skinny neck, her Adam's apple and resemblance to an FBI agent in drag. That's so mean. I don't approve of that sort of insult applied to any woman, even of a Republican liar and meanie like Ann Coulter. But I do reserve the right to call her a lying bitch in the privacy of my own home...

Actually, the truth is that both conservatives and liberals love to ridicule and insult the opposition's celebrity politicians and pundits. Let's admit it—we love it, all of us, when one of our most despised pretenders to power gets plastered with a verbal pie-in-the-face.

Limbaugh's crime, as always, is his habit of picking on vulnerable people— Fluke had no power and was not famous, until he made her so. And that's why his insults of her were so egregiously cruel and cowardly. He also loves to pick on the poor. He also, reportedly, goes on sex junkets to the Dominican Republic, and he's just the kind of creep who would take advantage of the sex trafficking of children, which is big down there—why would I think that? Because he likes to be cruel to the powerless and the vulnerable of this world. He'd wouldn't think twice about it. He's a shameless pig, and you know it.

Yay! Thom redeemed himself! Tonight on his TV show, The Big Picture, he not only acknowledged International Women's Day, with a nice interview of a couple from Oxfam, but he did a very funny sketch, explaining State Sen. Nina Turner's, Senate Bill 307, "which is aimed at protecting men from the risks of PDE-5 inhibitors -- drugs like Viagra that are commonly used to treat symptoms of erectile dysfunction -- in an effort to “guide men to make the right decision for their bodies.” (I'd post the sketch, but I don't think it's up yet.) It was one of the funniest commentaries I've seen on our subject yet. Way to go, Thom!

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote bullwinkle:

Maher called Palin a CUNT. I don't recall the left getting their panties in a wad over that as they have Limbo's rant about a nobody.

I wish this comment from Maher was Palins only claim to fame. But that isn't the case - Palin put Gabby Gifford in her 'crosshairs' & then Jared Loughne shot her along with 18 other people.

Now, I believe we could agree Mahers word choice is immature, & inappropriate. Give him a pantie wedgie for his penalty.

Palin is entirely another matter. I would call her a cruel consort cult cultivator of capable crazies. Even the Regurgitators who spawned this alleged human hybrid won't stick their fingers down their throat to bring her back up.

media_muse
Joined:
Dec. 10, 2011 3:09 pm

Bullwinkle wrote: "Could it be that liberal men hate well known conservative women because conservative women are often attractive. As opposed to well known liberal women? Many of the attractive liberal women are lesbians, actually men in drag, or so strongly and militantly feminist that they consider men a lesser species of animal life. Conservative women with actual notions of honour, self-respect and decency would never sleep with liberal men."

Right here in our midst we have this prime example of someone engaging in the use of sexism: "because conservative women are often attractive. As opposed to well known liberal women?" and denigration: "Many of the attractive liberal women are lesbians, actually men in drag, or so strongly and militantly feminist that they consider men a lesser species of animal life" to marginalize women, in this case the message coming from all liberally minded women. Amazing! Bullwinkle is a total pig and I'm sure he won't even understand why I would say so.

mdhess's picture
mdhess
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Apr. 9, 2010 11:43 pm

Thanks for that, mdhess. I didn't want to give it any power, but it did need to be called out for what it was, in no uncertain terms, and I'm glad you picked up on it. What a slimy mind-set there, eh?

Lots of people, even many liberals, have bought into the insult that feminists hate men. They cannot simply grok that feminists want a balance, where women and men have equal power, equal opportunity, equal status. But this idea won't work in a head that has hierarchy as an absolute, a law of nature, so that, for women to want power at all, is for women to want to displace men in the hierarchy. A mind stuck on hierarchy has to make sense of feminism somehow, so it only stands to "reason" that they must hate men, if they want to be "above" men. Of course, that's not what feminists want at all—feminists want human rights for all people, and because women are people too...well, you know what I mean. : )

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Hey, media_muse. Still funny after all these years? ; )

Maher isn't a liberal, you know. And he isn't a feminist, or a polite guy, or a sensitive guy toward women, but, he is funny sometimes. For example: "The best example from the hurricane was the firefighters who came from I forget where, but they were sent down there to help, and they were given - before they could get to the disaster area - eight hours of sexual harassment sensitivity training. Forgetting that most women want to be harassed by firefighters." See, there's an element of truth in that, even though we're glad they're getting the training.

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Yeah! Still FunnY - to me. Good day to you Zenzoe!. I hope everyone is enjoying their day. We have a beautiful one here in california.

As I wrote in another posting - "don't find me left or right. Sometimes I find offense in Maher's offerings, sometimes I don't agree. For the most part I find him funny with his pulse on the hot topics. When he makes his own brand of opinionated reductionist quips denigrating women I can show I am a modern woman & just let it roll off."

When I worked in the design field - clothing & interiors - I burnt myself out trying to save folks from their own bad taste. It was sobering to realize & accept - I cannot save the world from bad taste or bad design. The awareness morphed into further realization - I cannot save folks from our assorted sexist, dumb, ignorant, prejudicial behaviors. Nor should I try to. It's exhausting being the thought police, always on the patrol for others thoughtlessness. But more importantly - as evidenced by the assorted comments here - there are many, many perspectives. Why is that?

I prefer to believe our Great Creator has an impeccable sense of humor which inspires me. As Marion Woodman said: "Most of us can't get along with the person we sleep with so how do we manage out in the world?"

I don't watch much cable/tv. Like you, I am a big fan of BBC mysteries which I enjoy checking out from my local library. Maher is only on occasionally & I'll watch him if I can because I do find him entertaining. If I am annoyed by his immaturity I can exercise my choice - switch off the tv or leave it on.

Maher is NOT one of our government officials. Folks have to work to find him. He is not as ubiquitous as limbaugh who is well distributed - I'm not talking about his girth here. I'm referring to the audience provided by the conditional_christian_clear_channel network monopoly. Consequently, I save my precious bullet proof vest to protect me from the multitudinous misogynistic bullets from what I see as a more dangerous, prolific & insidious enemy.

media_muse
Joined:
Dec. 10, 2011 3:09 pm

Given the history of the sexes, the phrase "conservative woman" seems a bit like the phrase "NAZI rabbi" or "Mississippi MENSA meeting".

How DARE you treat me as equal, said the conservative woman. Can't you see I'm utterly penisless?!

D_NATURED's picture
D_NATURED
Joined:
Oct. 20, 2010 8:47 pm
Quote D_NATURED:

Given the history of the sexes, the phrase "conservative woman" seems a bit like the phrase "NAZI rabbi" or "Mississippi MENSA meeting".

How DARE you treat me as equal, said the conservative woman. Can't you see I'm utterly penisless?!

right on D_NATURED! hmm, in the context here it appears that penisless = clueless.

media_muse
Joined:
Dec. 10, 2011 3:09 pm

Re Bullwrinkle's post #36, I will not demean our porcine fellow creatures by referring to him as a "pig." I do find his diatribes and idiocy tiresome and beyond redemption, so I am not going to try to explain further why treating female conservatives as equal idiots and boors with the males is ok with me. I don't use the "c" word, although calling a guy a "prick" seems to be fairly common.

I also think "bee-yatch" has to be reserved for an abuse of power type of ugliness, and my personal experience of Condalsleeza and her "good ole boy" performance on the PNAC team deserved some equivalence with the Bushie Boys.

Women who dress to meet what is considered male fantasies or desires do not turn me on, but that is because it creeps me out as a male to know that "men" project that kind of crap. I also am not turned on by "girls," which is interesting on the beach here at Waikiki. I prefer to have women be comfortable with aging rather than trying to dye their greying hair or go botox. I don't want to fight my own wrinkles and turning grey early actually helped me with male gravitas. No double standard allowed.

Most of all, I love women who have tough senses of humor and mouths ready to tell the truth. I miss Molly Ivins because she helped me laugh at Texans without just laughing at Texas as loserville. I know there are good people there too, but we get all the others on tv. Women men call bitches rate high with me in general. I enjoyed the Reformed Whores and the wonderful concern about men's health and Viagra shown by a number of women in legislatures. It actually is a problem for guys who won't look into non-pharm alternatives for performance issues. Way too much penis as power.

My last point to the Bboy is that for all his bluster about character over skin color or gender, or orientation, the only people who have been a problem for me have been White men who seem to think I am "one of them" instead of seeing my character and resignation papers from the entitlement club. I have to keep letting them know, and it is a drag.

I am an affirming European-American male of light complexion, comfortable in my own skin even as it ages and the bones don't move as well, etc. What I want to shed is the image of superiority and advantage that others project so I can enjoy the mutuality and joy of my fellow human beings. It ain't easy getting old, but it beats the alternative all to hell.

Anything that offends White Straight Men has to be fine with me.

DRC's picture
DRC
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Slut doesn't mean what we think? HUH? Hey Zenzoe - We need reforms, we need inspiration: Check out the Reformed Whores - check out link here: Rush Limbaugh Calls Sandra Fluke a Slut - Reformed Whores' Response Video

Reformed Whores' response to Rush Limbaugh calling a female Georgetown law student a SLUT. Apparently the word doesn't mean what we thought it did...
www.reformedwhores.com

media_muse
Joined:
Dec. 10, 2011 3:09 pm

Brilliant. I'm sorry but this deserves to be a stand alone post on the board so I'm taking it.

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mdhess
Joined:
Apr. 9, 2010 11:43 pm
Quote D_NATURED:
Quote DRC:

Don't you read the other threads where we learn that victimization and "special interest" pleading are liberal sins? Real women just transcend it and don't complain. Real men just close their eyes and stuff their ears to block out the whining. Being color blind is ignoring racism so it will go away. Kind of two year old stuff, but if you can't see it, it can't see you.

On the other hand, my property rights and my money are central issues. If you complain, you are not taking personal responsibility.

If you take enough drugs, this stuff might start making sense.

That's because taxing the rich is like aborting them from the protective womb of fascist American politics. It diminishes their "viability" as multi-national beings and limits their inalienable right to live at our expense, as flesh and blood people. It's a sin to enact policies that prevent wealth accumulation by a few. Don't you see it is the wealthy who are the real victims in society and all of the whining about health care and outsourcing and justice and societal equality and income disparity by the poor liberals is just a distraction? Don't you humans know how good you have it at not being saddled with the weight of responsibility for your own futures?

Why must we continue to waste valuable time debating the health care needs of female humans when there are corporate persons whose lives are being destroyed, this very minute, by anti-business liberals who cut them out of the political process every chance they get. Can't we look at the big picture, for once? Who is bigger than Exon? How many other potential Exons have been thrown away like trash by the blind, pro-human liberals.

Quit bitchin', Zenzoe, you had your chance to incorporate and become part of the system. You CHOSE to remain human. Take some personal responsibility, would you?

Thanks D_NATURED ! Apparently missed this in this hot bed of activity. Obviously you have straightened out my thinking! No more whiny bitchy poor me - let me just slit my wrists - to give Exon more blood for their coffers. Poor Exon...so poor, so small so wasted.

media_muse
Joined:
Dec. 10, 2011 3:09 pm

Hallelujah, I'm a born-agin' slut! Yay!!! Oh! That's a great one, media_muse. That's what I call verbal judo.

It reminds me of the "Slut Walk" protests of awhile back. Remember that? I did have mixed feelings about it, though. That is, given the reality, I think it's a good idea not to put yourself in jeopardy, that is, think about your surroundings and whether you're safe in expressing your sexy self in that particular place. Discretion being the better part of valor, and all of that.

I do agree with DRC, however, with regard to women who dress to please male fantasies. Well, there's a place for it, for many people, but I know what he means. Better to dress to please yourself, in accordance with your mood and best interest. In my life, I've found that dressing to please men attracts men who don't, or won't, please me, ultimately; better to attract someone who looks past all that jazz at your heart and mind.

I wish I had more time today...you guys...some very rich stuff being posted here, I must say.

Oh, and yeah, Molly Ivins. Man is she ever missed. I mean, there's nobody at all to take her place. Talk about originals.

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

DRC post #33 on this thread-"I think the bimbo look that is pervasive on FAUX is akin to Black guys trying to pass as White instead of looking Black. Again, itis not something that I regard as genuine pride or post-racial/post-sexism."

I wonder if your black so-called friends are not laughing at your condescending hypocracy. You are truly a prig and a bigot. Does anyone else notice the hypocracy of DRC? He calls black men down for trying to pass as white instead of embracing thie being black, yet he professes his acceptance as being black by his black friends. No hypocracy there. I know it is impossible for the Kumbya clan to recognize any of the condescension and disgusting hypocracy that is paraded here, it is just "progressive" bullshit.

bullwinkle
Joined:
Dec. 28, 2011 2:31 pm
Quote mdhess:

Brilliant. I'm sorry but this deserves to be a stand alone post on the board so I'm taking it.

Sure mdhess I'm glad you put it out to the wider audience - I am flattered! You have inspired me to keep on my toes - next time i'll do it myself! ;~)

I bless you from the top of your head to the bottoms of your feet. Beauty before you & beauty around you. I thank you for all that you bring to us.

media_muse
Joined:
Dec. 10, 2011 3:09 pm

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