"Women's Issues" are "Side Issues?"

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Quote EdBourgeois:
Quote Zenzoe: It reminded me that the masculinist mind-set can exist in the brain of a woman as easily as that of a man

Thanks zenzoe, I think they are really human issues. But mens brawn has been used to tip the scales of justice. And create a value for power either physical or monetary. What I now fear most is when women feel they must or are actually forced to put their masculinity front and center as a mind-set as the seeming only option to suppression.

You're right, Ed. It takes great effort to maintain a balance. I have to struggle with that myself. It's difficult to avoid becoming what you despise, if you know what I mean.

Of course, sometimes I get just as frustrated to see a reluctance on the part of policy-makers (Democrats) to stand up to the bullies (Republicans). In that case, it seems there's an imbalance too in the Dems, but on the side of the feminine, which can also cause problems. Balance works best, it seems to me.

As for nature, I think nature balances the feminine spirit with the masculine spirit. For example, we think of nature as life-nourishing, resourceful and full of diversity; but it's also ruthless in the enforcement of its laws. Nature provides for birth and growth and beauty; and it also provides strict requirements for life and supports death in that process. It's really our Mother and our Father, not to get too religious about it.

Thom talked a lot today about empathy and compassion, and, in his way, designated those in the society who lack empathy as being "sociopaths." He's talking about the same thing we're talking about here; he just labels it differently. Somehow it's not quite politically correct to mention the Feminine Spirit vs. Masculine Spirit, or to point out there's an imbalance in favor of the masculine in this culture. One of these days...

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Some may find it odd that I should be saying this to you but don't sell the feminine spirit short. Don't you feel a sense of weakness when you find yourself using so called masculinity except in a mere utility brawn task?

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EdBourgeois
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May. 14, 2010 12:24 pm

I'm not sure I understand your question, Ed. Are you asking it of me as a woman, or of any person?

I don't think I sell the feminine spirit short. It all depends on the context. Sometimes the situation calls for compassion and gentle persuasion; sometimes it demands a bold response. I don't deny myself the full range of options, given that I am a human being with a full range capacities.

Anyway, you'd have to give me an example, where taking a masculine/strong stance would actually be weak. For example, do you think it would have been weak for Obama to have pushed hard for a public option for the health care bill? Or maybe you're asking your question of me personally, and in that case, I'd have to have an example. For example, faced with a man who intended to rape me, would it be "weak" of me to kick him in the balls if I got a chance? Or is that a "utility brawn task?"

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

I was asking you as a women. I'm saying that a strong or even rather bold stance as long as it is well meaning is still actually a feminine one in the purist sense of the term. In nature females tend to have the strength and males the brawn. When we man or women "too easily" resort to brawn physically or mentally against another we begin to merely abuse masculinity. But of course yes when necessary use your brawn.

The ability to nurture and love another comes more naturally to a women. I can't bear another from my own flesh and my breasts don't even work to help feed one. I need a women, a mother, mother nature to help me learn compassion and how to nuture my situations. To learn the appropriate use of my brawn and masculinity both mentally and physically.

I found it interesting that as I explored soil life and the importance of this life we can't see and for the most folks don't even realize exists. That it has been women who have been best able to understand and explain this so profoundly important issue for our future that we all have been blind to. At the rate of a billion microbes per spoonfull of healthy soil.

EdBourgeois's picture
EdBourgeois
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May. 14, 2010 12:24 pm

Zenzoe,any cure ideas for the ugly infected republicans? Ed #446,give me a reason to respond.

tayl44's picture
tayl44
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/trending-now/y-big-story-mexico-six-drug-war-behind-182554036.html:

According to Borderland Beat, these deaths resulted from a power struggle between the two largest drug cartels and were reportedly timed for Mother's Day, May 10 in Mexico—and a day when some mothers marched to protest the government's failure to stop the killings.

It seems that the image of crucified Jesus being handed over to his Mother Mary resonates with a lot of catholics.

I think there are differences between north and south of the border in the cultural and social manifestations of crime. Differences of degree perhaps. Both here and there organized crime is seen as a man's game. However, the degree of organization needed to profit of supplying contraband is, I think, greater that that necessary for distribution. I don't think the practical differences in supply vs. demand account for all the differences in cultural manifestations, because the fact that U.S. money is corrupting Mexico also accounts for the different degree of violence. Networks of distribution within the US can be broken up and new ones emerge relatively quickly because there is no production process in distribution. That means that those who are at the top of the organized crime food chain in the US won't be allowed to bring the kind of violence to US streets that they do to Mexico because their operations of distribution in the US can be broken up relatively quickly. If distribution networks have to constantly reform, then they don't have the opportunity to entrench themselves and go to war with each other on a mass-scale. So the practical differences between production and distribution are directly linked to the profitability of persuing each in relation to each other across national borders which differentiate the social context by economic differences. The Mexicans really had no chance in keeping this from happening given the amount of money pouring into their country.

Here in the U.S. the street culture does produce expressions of criminality which situate themselves within the larger culture and manifest a different sort of attitude toward gender. Again, perhaps a difference of degree. The cultural manifestations largely revolve around the issue of being "genuine." Rap has become a ubiquitous phenomenon, and making one's presence known on the scene by dint of one's own industriousness is a major aspect of social success. This success is more likely to be expressed as the success of the individual, and the criminal aspects of self-assertion, the fundamental struggle for power, leaves room for a wider expression of personal characteristics. These expression may be formulaic in a certain sense, where cultural products express a norm against which individuals' lives can be measured, but in expressing common concerns about life and fate express the existential qualities of the experience of struggle. Such cultural manifestations include rap songs with titles such as "Daddy I'm in Love with a Gangster" and "Gangsters get Lonely Too" etc

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nimblecivet
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

NC, thanks for that. Obviously, you've thought a great deal about the subject and know more than I about Mexico's and the U.S.'s drug wars. If I knew more, perhaps I would grok what you mean here: "Here in the U.S. the street culture does produce expressions of criminality which situate themselves within the larger culture and manifest a different sort of attitude toward gender. Again, perhaps a difference of degree. The cultural manifestations largely revolve around the issue of being 'genuine,'"and what follows after that, which doesn't seem to explain the gender aspect. Perhaps if you expanded on the rap song titles, explaining how those illustrate your point with regard to gender. Otherwise, I'm lost. Also, I'm curious as to your expertise about Mexico, and your ability to speak Spanish— how did that happen, if that's not too personal a question? School? Did you live down there?

I'm sure my position on the drug wars is simplistic, however, there again, it seems to me the problem stems from a hypermasculinist approach to policy. That is, the approach focuses on punishment, law enforcement and violent responses to the violence created by a stupid decision to make Marijuana and other drugs illegal (vicious cycle). I mean, it's clear to anybody with an ounce of common sense that decriminalization is the answer; if money spent on the war against drug cartels and on punishing drug addicts were spent on rehab clinics, on creating jobs and creating a just, equitable society, the drug cartels would vanish. I cannot believe the macho bravado of drug lords and criminals could have a life without the drug war. Given a job, food, and access to education, the average man will not engage in activities that lead to murder. I simply do not believe most people are fundamentally violent.

Quote EdBourgeois:

The ability to nurture and love another comes more naturally to a women. I can't bear another from my own flesh and my breasts don't even work to help feed one. I need a women, a mother, mother nature to help me learn compassion and how to nuture my situations. To learn the appropriate use of my brawn and masculinity both mentally and physically.

Yes, women love to love and nurture and tend toward compassion, as long as they've not been the victims of abuse. But see, Ed, I don't think men need women to teach them about compassion and nurturance; I think they have it themselves and only need to look within. Having raised two boys, I know just how loving, vulnerable and compassionate the male of the species can be; most boys I've ever known had the capacity for empathy. They feel strong feelings too, and, being humans, they can identify with what other human beings feel. It's only their socialization for adulthood that derails them in some families. In our case, for example, we never told our boys it was unmanly to cry, or that they should "man up," or any of those silly things males are told in other families, or by the culture.

In fact, in my life men have been kinder to me than many women. Thus, I don't apply the notion of the Feminine Principle, or spirit, to women, per se; nor do I apply the notion of a Masculine Principle, or values, or spirit, to men. I think those notions are not wedded to sex or gender, but they exist in all people in varying degrees and balances.

You know, I'm not sure I have ever held truly healthy, living soil in my hand. Here, in North County San Diego, in my back yard, the "soil" is pretty much decomposed granite. We have to "amend" the soil, if we want to plant vegetables, for example. I bought "top soil" from a local supplier last year (to fill up my pond), and I have my doubts as to whether it was truly healthy soil. The plants did fine in it, but now it looks like I'm going to have to start a compost pile and start building the real deal, which I know next to nothing about.

Incidentally, I'm learning to make soap. I think I'm getting the hang of it, and now I just have to decide what I'm going to do with all of it. But I LOVE the oils and fragrances and colors. There's no end to the variety of natural soaps you can create.

Quote tayl44:

Zenzoe,any cure ideas for the ugly infected republicans? Ed #446,give me a reason to respond.

So? Huh? So what?

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

I had to go to an appointment before I could finish my comment. Expanding on the rap song titles was exactly what I was working up to. Here's an example where a man and a woman develop a fierce loyalty to each other, becoming soul mates who each have chosen to live in a "gangster world":

Quote Lyrics to A Gangsters Wife feat. Chino Grande:

voice of Ms. Krazie:
Hey Mijo, it's me again. I've been tryin to call you already
5-6 times your not pickin up your phone and I'm worried
Es son las tres en la manana babe donde estas?

I know I always bring this up but now it's time we talk
Mijo please take a lil minute sit back and relax
Listen to my words I ain't tryin to be your mom
Te quiero mucho por favor and I deserve to know whats up

All those late night calls, when u gotta bounce
Your homies coming first what's that all about?

I fell in love with a gangster yea, that's right
But I don't think u realize how I hurt inside
Always worryin, mi pelon, if your comin home
That's why I call u so much when u leave me alone
I don't wanna bug and this I promise u but in this situtation
It's so hard to trust u

I care bout u so much lovin u like Crazy

all I really want is to have your little baby
Tell me that u love me, u will never leave me
Soy la reina de tu vida and your happy to be with me

chorus: Daddy let me know that I'm your only girl
The only man that I need in this gangster world
Is you and I wouldn't trade it

Chino: So why u think I would lie? won't u tell me girl?
The only one that I need in my gangster world is you
And I wouldn't trade it

See, I kno it's been a struggle I can see in your eyes
Tear drops, they fall get me everytime
Baby girl don't cry understand that I try
The only hope that I hold in my gangster life
I hold u dear to my heart though I'm out in the night
Tryin to make a lil money then come home to a fight
A little fuss can't trust that's it's never enough
Was embraced by your touch in this thing called love
(although i leave so prestige<probably incorrect) with my hand on my heat
I got jar full of boulders so we all can eat
Comprehend that I spend most my time on the street
and all these other wicked women don't matter to me
It's not like I'm just tryin to get up n leave I work hard every
Minute in the face of defeat I find my feelings would
Cry knownin that u by my side wat u think I was just
Gonna let u walk on by?
chorus:
Daddy let me know that I'm your only girl
The only man that I need in this gangster world
Is you and I wouldn't trade it
Chino:
So why u think I would lie? won't u tell me girl?
The only one that I need in my gangster world is you
And I wouldn't trade it
Ms. Krazie:
I understand what your tellin me but it's so hard
Always fuss and we fight tell we back at the start
Te amo te quiero mi crazy vato gangero
Se le k yo tengo con tigo pero te tengo
I know you mean well when you hold me tight
The only one who can handle me like
Every fight and I cherish all the times that
I spend with you hold your pictures in my hand
When I pray for you this is gangster love and I'm
Down for whatever lay me down on the cama
And enjoy that were together turn on the candles
Hickies on my cuello mi firme verterano mi firme
Panqitero always down to ride with you like bonnie
And clyde with you I'll always stand with you forever be true
Keep you on my mente siempre mi vida I'm a gangster's
Wife to an anbody killer.
chorus:
Daddy let me know that I'm your only girl
The only man that I need in this gangster world
Is you n I wouldn't trade it
Chino:
So why you think I would lie? won't u tell me girl?
The only one that I need in my gangster world is you
And I wouldn't trade it

phone rings
Hello Mijo, where are you?

Chino:
Hey babe, I just called to tell you, I'm
Right here on the border and that I'm comin home

But, you ask, what about all those songs about betrayal by a lover? Well, that just proves my tentative point: that this very context of "love" and contextualizing the vagaries of the social dynamic under the rubric of "love" is probably not possible to the same extent or in the same way in Mexico. The very idea of a woman having the independence to make the potential of a failed relationship possible is only possible in some contexts. I don't know, because I am not familiar with any popular Mexican music either mainstream or street. I'm just speculating, but it seems like the much more sinister and gruesome quality of crime in Mexico would preclude the possibility of romanticizing the criminal mindset or lifestyle. Again, I think the emergence of different cultural and social manifestations by elements seperated by a border but linked by illegal cross-border trade results from the difference in social conditions imposed by the heirarchy which oversees this trade.

I think a lot of people like to think that street culture represents a dynamic and humanizing factor in popular culture, that it represents an element of popular culture which validates the total category of popular culture in some sense. Popular culture is a place where various aspects of the human condition are explored in various ways. There is an awareness that different strata of society are somehow linked together, so the sense is that expressions of culture reflect the link between divergent sectors of society, sectors of class and ethnicity and geography. Btw, I saw a headline on Yahoo! about a movie star who was in Terminator 3 who may be slumming on LA's skid row. So the news story itself exemplifies the way cultural expression merges with social reality through things like reality TV and movies. We are now treated to a drama of the movie star who portrayed fictional violence testing the limits of danger in the US by frequenting "skid row." We may note that this sort of adventurism provides no sort of indication of any idea of whether such a person as this actor would voluntarilly take the sort of risks necessary to go "slumming" in Mexico. I know that Jack Kerouac wrote about having sex with a sixteen year old prostitute when he travelled Mexico, but I think a person going on such an excursion as an individual risks kidnapping and robbery and murder more so than at that time.

I hate to ramble but I guess part of what I'm trying to say here is that the difference in overall context as delineated by the border is more important than the very distinction of criminal/mainstream society. I'm not sure that the latter dichotomy is generally understood to be absolute in any given individual.

Actually the only reason I took Spanish was that one year of a foreign language was required for my Bachelor's degree. I chose Spanish because I thought it would be the most useful to me and I have made attempts to learn more as I go along.

nimblecivet's picture
nimblecivet
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Nimblecivet:

But, you ask, what about all those songs about betrayal by a lover? Well, that just proves my tentative point: that this very context of "love" and contextualizing the vagaries of the social dynamic under the rubric of "love" is probably not possible to the same extent or in the same way in Mexico. The very idea of a woman having the independence to make the potential of a failed relationship possible is only possible in some contexts. I don't know, because I am not familiar with any popular Mexican music either mainstream or street. I'm just speculating, but it seems like the much more sinister and gruesome quality of crime in Mexico would preclude the possibility of romanticizing the criminal mindset or lifestyle. Again, I think the emergence of different cultural and social manifestations by elements seperated by a border but linked by illegal cross-border trade results from the difference in social conditions imposed by the heirarchy which oversees this trade.

I can't promise you, NC, but I have a feeling that you'll find teens the world over with romantic attachments of the sort described in the song. I'll bet the same is true in Mexico, even within the drug cartels, though I admit I could be wrong. (It is extremely difficult to find anything on the internet describing the everyday lives of cartel members.) The thing I'm counting on is hormones—much of that romanticization of the "bad boy" image, or even killer/drug dealer image, has to be fueled by sex hormones. In fact, apparently the gangs and cartels now exploit girls and women, turning them into assassins! Honestly, I can't see girls going along with it, without some sort of romantic attachment in play, unless they're forced somehow. I just have a feeling this might be the case. It's a twisted world out there.

Obviously, your perceptions could be right, and I might be missing the boat here; but how about these stories:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/14/sunday-review/mexicos-drug-war-draws-i...

http://video.ca.msn.com/watch/video/mexican-drug-cartels-turn-to-teen-gi...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandra_%C3%81vila_Beltr%C3%A1n

This proves my point that women can be just as violent as men.

Anyway, women baffle me sometimes—the men they find attractive, you know, criminals and murderers in prison. I remember one time at work, in the women's restroom, I asked my co-worker in the stall next to me if she had ever known a woman who fell in love with a guy in prison, say, a murderer. She said she hadn't heard of anybody else, but that she had thought of it, "Y'know, Jeffrey Dahmer?" So I said, "Jeffrey Dahmer?! You've fantasized about Jeffrey Dahmer?" She said, "Yeah. He was cute!" Oye!

Can you believe it? But I don't think she's alone. I think something happens to a girl when a guy is cute. See a good-looking man and millions of cute-responsive molecules flood those feel-good receptors in the female brain, and she's a goner. I'm guessing it's hormones working against our better judgment on behalf of the continuation of the species. It's a dumbing-down process. "Duh, he's so cute..." But this is mostly a teen phenomenon, I think.

Context can certainly be a factor, though. I can't argue that Mexico's drug cartel situation isn't dire or doesn't have an effect on relationships in contrast to what happens here. It would be great to find a journalist who had researched the subject, or find a novel, or book on it. Is love possible in a time of drug cartels? "Love in a Time of Murder" might be the book, or Phd. thesis for you. Hm-m?

Zenzoe
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Sometimes these coincidences make me wonder. No sooner had I been thinking about Nimblecivet's thoughts on Mexico's drug cartel wars (at #460) than, lo and behold, Link TV airs the brilliant documentary, Favela Rising.

Quote LinkTV:

Favela Rising documents a man and a movement, a city divided and a favela (Brazilian squatter settlement) united. Haunted by the murders of his family and many of his friends, Anderson Sá is a former drug-trafficker who turns social revolutionary in Rio de Janeiro’s most feared slum. Through hip-hop music, the rhythms of the street, and Afro-Brazilian dance he rallies his community to counteract the violent oppression enforced by teenage drug armies and sustained by corrupt police.

In the film, it's called Afro-Reggae, and this story is SO beautiful, so uplifting, such an offering of hope. Imagine it— turning a violent drug-war culture into a peaceful culture of the arts, of music, dance, color, life... if you have the time, it's really worth watching. It's in Spanish, with subtitles. (and that's my advertisement for today...)

Zenzoe
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Zenzoe,that sound like a cure,does it work?

tayl44's picture
tayl44
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

tayl, maybe you heard the story about the girl who walked along the beach throwing starfish back into the ocean? Her friend asked her, "Why are you doing that when you can only save a few starfish and so many, many more will die?" The girl said, "But the ones I throw back in will live."

nimblecivet's picture
nimblecivet
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Re the continuing war on women, Rachel Maddow last night, and this article: Shame of the Nation: House 'Violence Against Women Act' Bill Ratchets Up Attacks on Domestic Violence Survivors.

Amazing. Repugnants oppose the "Violence Against Women Act?" Excuse me?

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

"So, now we have a hierarchy of issues, along with all the other toxic hierarchies we subscribe to as a culture? Birth control, which is a woman’s issue —and a man’s issue, and an issue of population control— counts for less, as an issue? It’s a “side issue?” Sorry, but I read this conventional “wisdom” as saying, “women’s issues are unimportant." And them’s fightin’ words!

Misogyny is a side issue too? Sexism is a side issue? I suppose racism is a side issue too, then? And these things are unrelated to, and distinct from, the general sickness of our society and the roots of its problems and crimes against democracy and justice?"

What's wrong with you? What does birth control have to do with any of those things? Of course it's a side issue, we have far more important issues, like making jobs and getting the soldiers home. Do you think birth control is more important than ending the war? Or ending the corporatocracy? Of course we can focus on all of them at once, but don't pretend birth control is the most important.

Where does all this self entitlement come from? The government should have any say at all on a persons body. Government is the reason birth control is so hard to get, in other countries you just walk into a store and buy them for $30.

Quote nimblecivet:

tayl, maybe you heard the story about the girl who walked along the beach throwing starfish back into the ocean? Her friend asked her, "Why are you doing that when you can only save a few starfish and so many, many more will die?" The girl said, "But the ones I throw back in will live."

If they've washed up on the shore they're already dead.

sirhotalot's picture
sirhotalot
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Apr. 17, 2012 8:09 pm

Yes, I see your point about how teens would tend to form romantic attachments. Whether that is encouraged by those that recruit them into the cartels I don't know. If so, then yes you would find popular music reflecting it. Maybe that is possible. The newscaster in the second link you provided seemed to assume that it was the teenagers that were committing the more gruesome acts. The person he was interviewing did not challenge that, but I wonder. It would be consistent with the pattern exhibited elsewhere, for example in Uganda and by the child soldiers under Charles Taylor. However, it may be the adults who are committing these more gruesome acts if they have any fear that it may be too much for the teenagers to handle. Of course the teenagers once recruited to the cartels in Mexico are under duress, but the child soldiers in Liberia, Sierra Leone, Sri Lanka, etc. have been kidnapped and must commit heinous acts while under the supervision of their captors, which they are always under. If the motivation for teenagers to work for the cartels is to have enough money for them and their family to eat, and maybe afford things like ipods and laptops or cute outfits, etc., then the cartels may be willing to just exploit them for smuggling. Of course, the articles did mention that girls are being used as assassins so I don't doubt that under the right circumstances women are just as capable of evil as men.

nimblecivet's picture
nimblecivet
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote sirhotalot:

What's wrong with you? What does birth control have to do with any of those things? Of course it's a side issue, we have far more important issues, like making jobs and getting the soldiers home. Do you think birth control is more important than ending the war? Or ending the corporatocracy?

What's wrong with me? Nothing that educating people like you wouldn't cure.

Quote sirhotalot:

Of course we can focus on all of them at once, but don't pretend birth control is the most important.

Where and when did I say birth control "is the most important" issue? That's what you read into my comments; that is, it's nothing but a projection on your part, based on fear, I'm guessing. If you were to read and comprehend, you might see I've always insisted that all of these issues are interrelated. I never once said women's issues are the most important issues of all issues!

"Of course we can focus on all of them at once," you say? And that's all I've been saying. All the issues you mentioned are important. Just don't brush our issues off to the side, as if birth control isn't a huge issue affecting the lives of both women and men, affecting the life of the planet and as a factor in wars over resources.

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Well said, and comprehensive, as usual, NC. What interests me too about the recruitment of women into these cultures, to do the dirty work, has to do as much with the symbolic murder of the feminine as a powerful, balancing force, as it does with the literal turning of women into assassins. Somehow the adoption of violence as a way of life (the masculinist approach) cannot be limited to males, it has to overwhelm any remnants of the Feminine Principle that women might represent. Thus, I see these young girls as having been seduced away from their core value, to be exploited on behalf of a romantic notion of violence, and, therefore, killed in the process.

That's one reason the documentary, Favela Rising had such a strong effect on me. I think it provides the answer for these lost spirits. It's a long doc, but I hope you check it out.

I also just found this bit of writing from the Journal of Criminal Justice and Popular Culture, which makes a lot of sense to me, about gangsta misogyny. The author says, "..linguistic violence is in fact a form of physical violence... More to the point: sexual and violent imagery 'indeed is violence against women.'"Later he points out, as I believe you have done, that, "Late capitalism promotes sexual and violent cultural industries," and "Allegedly, rappers created gangsta rap music when their focus shifted from music to money and they discovered that the best way to make money was to rap about sex and violence." (I haven't finished reading, though)

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

I hopped back on here because I got this email:

Quote Mercy Corps who Thom recommends:

Twelve years old. That's how old Anyi was when she became a child soldier. She soon discovered that life in Colombia's largest rebel group was neither glamorous nor safe.

"You walk a lot, carrying heavy loads, and you risk your life. And whoever doesn't do as they're told is killed."

Luckily, Anyi was rescued by the Colombian Army at age 16. Today, after a two-year transition process that included emotional and educational support from Mercy Corps, she works as a cook, lives on her own and starts nursing school next year.

Your gift to Mercy Corps provides a fresh start to children and families who've been affected by disaster, conflict and poverty.

Our programs help children recover from trauma — whether their lives have been turned upside-down by disaster, or they've survived wartime experiences we wouldn't wish on anyone.

For example, in Japan we helped 2,300 children heal after the tsunami through activities such as a roving "art caravan" staffed by art therapy specialists. In Haiti, games, workbooks and art projects eased trauma in more than 61,000 earthquake-affected children who participated in our "Comfort for Kids" program for emotional recovery.

And in Colombia, we offer former child soldiers activities that boost self-esteem, develop positive values and habits, and teach skills to live successful, independent lives. Our important work helps former child soldiers reclaim their lives.

Please join our fight to reclaim young lives by making a gift today. Your generosity promotes recovery and hope — a fresh start for children who want to rebuild their lives. Thank you.

Thank you for making a difference.

Sincerely,

Dan O'Neill
Mercy Corps Founder

Definitely I think you have a point there about the "symbolic" aspect and I think that's the correct way to interpret it. I tried to watch "Favela Rising" but for some reason it wouldn't load in my browser. I'll try again or find it somewhere else because it does look very good. Just the kind of think Occupy should be doing.

nimblecivet's picture
nimblecivet
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Zenzoe:

D_NATURED, let me post this link again and ask you to please read the entire section under the heading, "Culture." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semai_people

Read it. Fascinating and encouraging but not wholly convincing. There is still a "headsman" who makes decisions? Is it always a man or can the decider be a woman? Hmmm...

If, as you say, "...violence seems to be a human condition and not a result of patriarchy, per se.," how do you account for the Semai people (as but one example)? Are they not human beings? Do you see any patriarchy (competition, inequality, force) functioning there, in spirit or fact?

I neither account or don't account for them. When I made my generalization about humanity, I spoke from the perspective of someone who lives in the United States, not a bead curtain roomed hut. By far, the majority of human cultures alive today are violent. How do you not account for them when you claim that humanity is not naturally violent?

The point, however, is not that humans are predominantly peaceful; the point is that we are equally capable of non-violence and peace as we are of violence. We are malleable.

I agree that we are equally capable of non-violence, to a point. I think the thing that is lost in this misunderstanding between us is that there is likely a correlation between the conditions under which people live and their likelihood to be violent. If we were still living in small isolated groups of 150 persons and everyone knew everyone else and there were all of the cultural admonishments to dis cooperative behavior, it would be a valid point. However, human population is well above the point where we could ever return to such a life, without a major, devastating loss of life.

Maybe that's what this planet and this species need, is a major devastating loss of life. Maybe human violence is as much a response to over population as homosexuality has been speculated to be. I'm open to all of these ideas. Maybe violence is natures way of adjusting the numbers. The bigger the numbers, the bigger the violence needed for a correction.


Quote Robert Sapolsky:

Can human behav­ior be as mal­leable and as peace­ful as For­est Troops?

Any bio­log­i­cal anthro­pol­o­gist opin­ing about human behav­ior is required by long-established tra­di­tion to note that for 99 per­cent of human his­tory, humans lived in small, sta­ble bands of related hunter-gatherers. Game the­o­rists have shown that a small, cohe­sive group is the per­fect set­ting for the emer­gence of coop­er­a­tion: The iden­ti­ties of the other par­tic­i­pants are known, there are oppor­tu­ni­ties to play games together repeat­edly (and thus the abil­ity to pun­ish cheaters), and there is open-book play (play­ers can acquire rep­u­ta­tions). And so, those hunter-gatherer bands were highly egal­i­tar­ian. Empir­i­cal and exper­i­men­tal data have also shown the coop­er­a­tive advan­tages of small groups at the oppo­site human extreme, namely in the cor­po­rate world.

What is the opposite of the patriarchal society? Well, it's not a matriarchal society. It is an egalitarian society. And if you think patriarchy/inequality doesn't create war, violence and injustice, we've got a long way to go before we see eye to eye. Patriarchy, after all, is nothing other than a hierarchy which enforces its inherent inequality, competition and masculine values, at the expense of "feminine" values. The word itself is not an attack on men, per se.

I understand the distinction. I guess, where I land, given all of the enlightening information you were kind and patient enough to provide, is that humanity is not living the sort of life we evolved to live. Yet, as I mentioned, evolutionary adaptations-even cultural ones- with no contemporary usefulness are the cultural equivalent of the appendix. It's nice to look at other peoples -some of whom inspire low-tech nostalgia in us. However, I don't see how we move forward by returning to a point where many of the benefits of our current way of life are as impossible as the things we don't currently like about ourselves.

There's no special condition that creates good people. There are conditions, however, which seem to discourage people from being total dicks. I get it.

D_NATURED's picture
D_NATURED
Joined:
Oct. 20, 2010 8:47 pm

pardon me while I tell a story,

I was a teenager in the 60s 70s in a progressive college town in the northeast. Times of Vietnam war, the draft, tv dinners, peace movement, civil rights, increasing corporate power issues, womens rights, natural food movement, woodstock etc. My parents were in the rat race of those times. They had little time for me or each other. There was a mountain and brook behind our house and Mother Nature was often my day care provider. My grandparents lived next door and had a small plant business and a small flock of sheep. I liked helping with the plants and animals. When old enough I joined 4-H. This required me to take responsibility of my own projects with plants and animals. I exhibited my farming efforts at the local county fairs and did well. Farming was drying up in my area and my dad thought I was foolish to consider farming as a future. Especially because we didn't have a farm and my grandparents plot of land was really small. As a young teen I started to meet farmers from the midwest who would come to the northeast to show and sell their sheep. I would ask what it was like to farm in farm country in the midwest. They invited me to come visit and knowing I was poor offered me a place to stay with them and would feed me. I could learn and help out for the few days I was there before I would move on and do the same visiting another farm and friend.

It was quite a culture shock. This was rural like I had never experienced. These farms were still quite traditional integrated multi-generational family farms and communities. National media and communications was very minimal. They didn't know who Bob Dylan was or many of the turbulent issues talked about in my hometown.

So why am I telling this story in this thread? Because I went to learn about farming but what I learned most about was people, family and equality. I arrived with the mind-set from home. The women were the suppressed housewives and the men the boss of the house and watching "Father Knows Best" on tv. I had travelled to learn from the men but that soon changed. These folks lived mostly with nature before farming had become as much of a big controlling industry as it has become today. The kids would collect some eggs and grab something from the home canned shelf and freezer from the basement. Mom and grandma made breakfast in a simple but pleasant kitchen that smelled of real food and sweet flowers from the home gardens. It felt so good! I felt peace, hope and love like never before. It was then time to get to work for us men. The first wisdom these men gave me was to respect mother nature, yes Mother nature. That my brawn was to be used with compassion and gentleness around the plants and animals. If I realized this everything would be easier. They were right. But things can go wrong even in a well planned out day of chores. I can remember a day when a part on the tractor broke late morning. We really needed to get this fixed to finish the morning part of the schedule. As much as he tried to keep his cool it was quite a trying moment. We bulled through it but were now quite frazzled with a long day still ahead of us. It was now time for lunch. Back to the house and kitchen. I hadn't thought much about what his wife had been doing while we struggled fixing the tractor. She asked how the morning had gone as she sensed we were a bit frazzled. "The pin broke on the damn tractor" he spouted, "but we managed to get it fixed". She didn't say much as she continued to lay out our lunch. But again I felt a sense of peace. The smells of the kitchen now with a fresh set of wonderful smelling flowers. A fresh baked loaf of bread and a treat of fresh strawberries from her garden and home baked shortcake. She didn't merely tell us to feel better from our trying morning. But by the time lunch was done it was like nothing bad had ever happened, it was like magic. She didn't just fill our stomachs she also nourished our hearts and souls. We went on with the afternoon chores and actually got done early enough to grab a couple fishing poles to throw out a line in the farm pond. It wasn't about catching fish it was about spending some peaceful time with mother nature, and man with boy. I couldn't help but comment on what had happened at lunchtime. Yes, my wife is what holds this farm together. She works harder than I do. He didn't say much about how he loved her but it was very clear. Again, it wasn't so much about words but about much more. It was different than back home where I often heard questioning complaints of lack of verbal expression of love of others. I then realized that if I was to learn about farming my next day would need to be spent with her. It didn't take long to realize that she was much more than a housewife. She was a full and equal partner in all this. Her day was much more than I had seen the day before in the kitchen. Her farm chores were not so brawny as his but just as important and challenging. She took pride in what she did the same as I had seen the day before with him. She too would say that his work is harder than hers. How she would try to fix something when she could but sometimes she would need her husband to carry it out to the shop to fix. Hmmm, I thought. Again this was different than the common complaining of others being lazier that I had too often heard around my town.

I visited many farm families like this back in those days. I realized that a successful farm business was as much about the people and family working together as it was the farming. I no longer thought that I just needed to learn from the man of the farm to learn about farming. And that the farm was as much about life as it was about work. In fact after a while it seemed little about work and mostly about life. Things have changed a lot since then. More recently a visit to other farms often means working land away from the homestead, the wife is too working elsewhere. Lunch is at McDonalds and dinner is a brought home pizza. Tensions among the men and women are much the same as everywhere. The nature around the farm is dead, the ponds are dead. Instead of the variety around the farm it is just acres of corn and soybeans under a contract of an abusive powerful corporation. Some may wonder why I tell this story and what it has to do with womens issues or peoples issues. Where is the solution? All I know is what I learned about men and women in a farmhouse kitchen from a wonderful woman married to a wonderful man.

EdBourgeois's picture
EdBourgeois
Joined:
May. 14, 2010 12:24 pm
Quote Nimblecivet:
Quote Mercy Corps email:

“...For example, in Japan we helped 2,300 children heal after the tsunami through activities such as a roving "art caravan" staffed by art therapy specialists...”

Definitely I think you have a point there about the "symbolic" aspect and I think that's the correct way to interpret it. I tried to watch "Favela Rising" but for some reason it wouldn't load in my browser. I'll try again or find it somewhere else because it does look very good. Just the kind of think Occupy should be doing.

Thanks, NC. Yes, I'd love to see Occupy adopting dance, drumming and Afro-reggae, or whatever music, as part of their presentation to the world. It might even earn them more positive media attention.

I'm absolutely convinced that people have a hard time choosing violence, when they're able to express themselves via some sort of art. Whether it's music, or dance, or painting, or poetry writing, something happens to the soul there, and you become too happy to fight. Violence is a twisted displacement of artistic will. Don't forget, Hitler wanted to be an artist first. Hell hath no fury like an artist scorned! ;-)

Quote D_NATURED:

By far, the majority of human cultures alive today are violent. How do you not account for them when you claim that humanity is not naturally violent?

...If we were still living in small isolated groups of 150 persons and everyone knew everyone else and there were all of the cultural admonishments to dis cooperative behavior, it would be a valid point. However, human population is well above the point where we could ever return to such a life, without a major, devastating loss of life.

I regret it when we disagree, D_NATURED, because I know we’re basically on the same side. But, I’m afraid I don’t accept your premise, or your general view that cooperation and peace only happens in small, isolated groups. First, you forgot the map. Then you’re apparently forgetting the top ten non-violent societies, or nations:

1 New Zealand
2 Iceland
3 Japan
4 Austria
5 Norway
6 Ireland
7 Denmark
8 Luxembourg
9 Finland
10 Sweden

...all large populations, yes? I agree that peace can be unstable under stressful conditions, but if we believe violence is our fixed destiny, our only choice, by virtue of our genes, that belief will determine our fate absolutely. Plus, it’s simply a false belief.

Also, I didn’t say humanity wasn’t “naturally violent,” if by that you mean we are biologically capable of violence. I acknowledge that humans have the capacity for violence; I just added that we also have the capacity for peace, cooperation, empathy and compassion. In fact, many experts claim cooperation enabled our continuation as a species even more than violence did.

Whatever, if you can humor me one more time, perhaps this video will make more sense than I do, though I don’t necessarily agree with her implication that women are more biologically gifted with tendencies toward peace than men are:
http://www.afww.org/NoMoreWar_TheHumanPotentialForPeace.html

Without a belief that we are also naturally peaceful and cooperative, we won’t be able to avoid violent solutions to problems.

Have you ever tried to find something, but you didn’t know what it looked like and you doubted it would be there, anyway? You couldn’t find it, right? Hope requires a vision.

Quote EdBourgeois @ #471:
pardon me while I tell a story...

Thank you so much for sharing your story, Ed. It tells us a great deal about you, your fine values, and also about the sad path the industrial farming industry has taken us over a few generations.

Your illustration of the life on a family farm, where the division of labor achieved a certain “equality in diversity,” to use a V. Shiva expression, between husband and wife, receives no objection from me. I see nothing whatsoever wrong with it, although I’m sure you’d agree women farmers do exist. http://www.nifa.usda.gov/nea/economics/in_focus/small_business_if_women....
http://www.wfan.org/News/Entries/2011/5/8_2011_Sustainable_Farming_Mom_o...

Although I'm sure you're right about the dire situation many farming families face, apparently not all is lost, Ed. Family farming is having a come-back, I hope, though you may have some info I don't have: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/16/AR200910... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45749480/ns/business-careers/t/stifled-corpo...

Let's hope a trend toward small, sustainable farming grows. I like what I hear and read about "forest gardening." I don't know if you're familiar with it, Ed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXVnAMQRGbI

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Here we go, guys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmAOM2TAuJA  (One Rhythm, One World)

NC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsDezFmPoAA  (Occupy's hot drumming—& goose bumps)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5_DnxeEkts  (Favela Rising trailer)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snusWz0pIUU  (more from Favela Rising/ Hip Hop saves)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKSuaPxYU0s&feature=related  (the beginning of Favela Rising. I think YouTube only has the first three segments. The greatest parts are in the last half, though.)

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Back then women did much of the farming too. The men and boys just did a bit more of the heavy brawn work. The farm repair shop tended to be more the mans spot and the kitchen the womans but even that was not an exclusive thing. There were also farms I visited that were run completely by a woman where the man worked full or part-time off the farm. A dairy farm right down the road from me was run by a woman who's husband was a carpenter and would help her on the farm. Many of the new farms in the small farm movement are being started by women. We just had a very large conference of women in agriculture in our area.

It used to be that many families who lived in the seeming hustle of the city had relatives on a farm that they would go visit for vacation in the country. It was a very common thing.This tended to help families get a little moment of peace and quiet in their lives and families along with a needed exposure to nature. The concept of the CSA farm now again allows the members a moment of access to a farm and the nature and workings within one. Kids do better with this than a trip to a walmart superstore. The new local small farm movement has helped other local businesses to become more focused and friendly and fair minded. All of this can only be a good thing for the relationships between men and women and children and also a respect for their environment and community. They are also bringing back some prison farming. A good friend of mine managed one in the past. He used to tell me how much it helped the inmates. Many of which had never had a real understanding of what caring for something or someone was really all about. I see a lot of hopeful things happening amongst all the greed, violence and unfairness. Much like farming it starts with small seeds of change that take time, persistance and nurturing before the harvest.

zenzoe thanks for the one rhythm one world, really nice

Drumming has been a way commonly used to bring back the rhythm between people and nature around them during droughts, floods, disease and community turmoil. Tony Vacca lives in my area and as been involved in all sorts of sharings of world rhythms for many years. http://www.tonyvacca.com/ lots of youtube videos with his work too. His balofon playing is amazing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RyRnXE3IFs

EdBourgeois's picture
EdBourgeois
Joined:
May. 14, 2010 12:24 pm

Nimble,yes i heard and like the story.But the story we all know,"we`re young and innocent,but we all grow up"!(well most do)

tayl44's picture
tayl44
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote EdBourgeois:

Back then women did much of the farming too. The men and boys just did a bit more of the heavy brawn work. The farm repair shop tended to be more the mans spot and the kitchen the womans but even that was not an exclusive thing. There were also farms I visited that were run completely by a woman where the man worked full or part-time off the farm. A dairy farm right down the road from me was run by a woman who's husband was a carpenter and would help her on the farm. Many of the new farms in the small farm movement are being started by women. We just had a very large conference of women in agriculture in our area.

It used to be that many families who lived in the seeming hustle of the city had relatives on a farm that they would go visit for vacation in the country. It was a very common thing.This tended to help families get a little moment of peace and quiet in their lives and families along with a needed exposure to nature. The concept of the CSA farm now again allows the members a moment of access to a farm and the nature and workings within one. Kids do better with this than a trip to a walmart superstore. The new local small farm movement has helped other local businesses to become more focused and friendly and fair minded. All of this can only be a good thing for the relationships between men and women and children and also a respect for their environment and community. They are also bringing back some prison farming. A good friend of mine managed one in the past. He used to tell me how much it helped the inmates. Many of which had never had a real understanding of what caring for something or someone was really all about. I see a lot of hopeful things happening amongst all the greed, violence and unfairness. Much like farming it starts with small seeds of change that take time, persistance and nurturing before the harvest.

zenzoe thanks for the one rhythm one world, really nice

Drumming has been a way commonly used to bring back the rhythm between people and nature around them during droughts, floods, disease and community turmoil. Tony Vacca lives in my area and as been involved in all sorts of sharings of world rhythms for many years. http://www.tonyvacca.com/ lots of youtube videos with his work too. His balofon playing is amazing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RyRnXE3IFs

Thanks again, Ed. I do enjoy reading your comments about farming so very much. I had a beautiful horse from the time I was 10 until I married, but we boarded him in the Malibu hills on a large tract of land. It wasn't a farm, but close enough, so that I know what you mean about peace and quiet. That horse was my childhood joy, and solace during my teens.

"Small seeds of change," yes.

I LOVED that Tony Vacca music. After listening to that last night, I went on a drumming binge on YouTube. Here are a few of my finds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-g_2VMJA1iM&feature=related   —The Master of the Talking Drum

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR6z1RKUr9A  —Female African Dancers Drum and Solo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7E_Lu5ngr0&feature=related  —Every kid should have access to a big drum. The only problem is, where to play it. My son is a drummer. When he was learning to play, we built a sound-proof inner room in the garage, so the neighbors could live in peace and quiet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR9Ss6AIGPY&feature=related   —Glorious male energy, here. Better to beat a drum than your neighbors. Let's hope it's a call to peace, not war.

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Questions concerning woman/man relations might include (but are not limited to) these (please note that these are proposed questions for discussion, they are neither statements, rules nor opinions):

*How have man/woman relations changed in the last 50 or so years?

*What factors have contributed to these changes?

*Has the feminist movement affected man/woman relations? In what way?

*Has "women's liberation" affected (1) the family: (2) husband-wife relations, (3) relations with children, (4) children's behavior? How might that influence men/women relations?, in what ways?

*Are women more sexually liberated today than, say, 50 years ago and how does that affect man/woman relations?

(A discussion of women’s sexual freedom might include a look at the extraordinary popularity among women of a very erotic eBook, written by a woman, E-L. James,“Fifty Shades of Grey" (and the sequels) as well as a discussion of so-called “mommy porn” in general.).

*What external factors in today's society affect man/woman relations? Unemployment, possible alienation by technology, consumerism, television, etc.

*Is it true or not, as some men claim, that "Trying to reason with a woman is like trying to eat soup with a fork." If it isn't true, why isn't it? If it isn't true why do quite a few men think that it is?

*Are women’s GRE scores lower than men’s? If so, why?

*Do female students trade sex for grades?

*How common are sexual relations between student/teacher? Why do instances of female teacher/male student sexual encounters seem to get more press coverage than male teacher/female student relations? Or do they?

Comments

11. May 2012 - 16:04 #2

caroline01

Yes, some female students do in fact trade sex for grades. It occurs in secondary schools and in universities. In lower grades? Let's hope not. Would this have anything to do with the fact that GPA's show little difference between the genders but GRE scores for women are generally much lower than those for men?

QuoteReply

12. May 2012 - 6:16 #3

express

As we all know women began to enter the work force in great numbers during WWII. That trend has accelerated until today families need two incomes in order to buy the latest iPods. These pernicious changes in family structure marked the eventual dissolution of the family as a cohesive, nuturing entity. Now there's seemingly no turning back, to hell with caring for the children, let them fend for themselves.

QuoteReply

12. May 2012 - 10:10 #4

caroline01

Yes, express. Home alone. Could the nation ever recoup that ideal of the perfect family when children always had a parent at home, when there was only one breadwinner? Instead of aggressively militating for equality in the workplace wouldn't it make more sense for both women and men to fight for decent wages - a single income that would allow one parent to stay home? Wouldn't everyone benefit?

QuoteReply

13. May 2012 - 7:26 #5

Spectator

For a few wry commentaries on man/woman relations click on this:

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/adams-and-eves.aspx?pageID=451&nID=19885&NewsCatID=324

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13. May 2012 - 7:54 #6

Alberto Ceras

Did you know that Iran celebrates both Women's Day and Mother's Day - on the same day? The Ayatollah says that women should pay "due attention to family life."

QuoteReply

14. May 2012 - 6:17 #7

express

Yes, attention to family life, but maybe not the life the Ayatollah is talking about.

QuoteReply

14. May 2012 - 8:20 #8

Alberto Ceras

These comments from a preacher. Make sense or no?

"By the early 70’s the women had had enough bad treatment, and the feminist revolution began in earnest. The leaders did a marvelous job of identifying the problem, but alas, their solution was worse than the problem. They decided that women could be just like men, asking men out if they wanted; paying for dates if they chose (this is liberation?); and engaging in lots of sex, as long as they could have abortions to cover their mistakes. Unfortunately, women can’t enjoy casual sex without doing violence to their natures. And, they endure abortion even worse. This made the breach between the sexes even deeper. The divorce rate soared (in 1960 it was about 10%, now it is 50%). And, it is estimated now that 50%of the members of the National Organization of Women are lesbians. Clearly, NOW’s version of feminism isn’t working.

Others are starting to come forward with the same conclusion: the experiment didn’t work. Danielle Chrittendon writes in What Our Mothers Didn’t Tell Us: Why Happiness Eludes the Modern Woman “. . . the woman who comes of age today quickly discovers that she enjoys a . . . guarantee of “sexual equality”: the right to make love to a man and never see him again; the right to be insulted and demeaned if she refuses a man’s advances; the right to catch a sexually transmitted disease, that might, as a bonus, leave her infertile; the right to an abortion when things go wrong, or, as it may be, the right to bear a child out of wedlock. Indeed, in all the promises made to us about our ability to achieve freedom and independence as women, the promise of sexual emancipation may have been the most illusory.” In A Return to Modesty Wendy Shallit points out, “The peculiar way our culture tries to prevent young women from seeking more than ‘just sex,’ the way it attempts to rid us of our romantic hopes or, variously, our embarrassment and our ‘hangups,’ is a misguided effort. It is, I will argue, no less than an attempt to cure womanhood itself, and in many cases it has actually put us in danger.” And, argue she does, quite effectively, using articles written by the liberationists themselves in Cosmopolitan, Elle, and Mademoiselle: the liberated woman is not happy. Columnist Mona Charen recently opined that the abstinence program, Best Friends, which helps high school girls postpone sex and turn down drugs and alcohol, has given back to these girls their femininity. "

QuoteReply

14. May 2012 - 8:32 (Reply to #8) #9

Bush_Wacker

Alberto Ceras wrote:

These comments from a preacher. Make sense or no?

"By the early 70’s the women had had enough bad treatment, and the feminist revolution began in earnest. The leaders did a marvelous job of identifying the problem, but alas, their solution was worse than the problem. They decided that women could be just like men, asking men out if they wanted; paying for dates if they chose (this is liberation?); and engaging in lots of sex, as long as they could have abortions to cover their mistakes. Unfortunately, women can’t enjoy casual sex without doing violence to their natures. And, they endure abortion even worse. This made the breach between the sexes even deeper. The divorce rate soared (in 1960 it was about 10%, now it is 50%). And, it is estimated now that 50%of the members of the National Organization of Women are lesbians. Clearly, NOW’s version of feminism isn’t working.

Others are starting to come forward with the same conclusion: the experiment didn’t work. Danielle Chrittendon writes in What Our Mothers Didn’t Tell Us: Why Happiness Eludes the Modern Woman “. . . the woman who comes of age today quickly discovers that she enjoys a . . . guarantee of “sexual equality”: the right to make love to a man and never see him again; the right to be insulted and demeaned if she refuses a man’s advances; the right to catch a sexually transmitted disease, that might, as a bonus, leave her infertile; the right to an abortion when things go wrong, or, as it may be, the right to bear a child out of wedlock. Indeed, in all the promises made to us about our ability to achieve freedom and independence as women, the promise of sexual emancipation may have been the most illusory.” In A Return to Modesty Wendy Shallit points out, “The peculiar way our culture tries to prevent young women from seeking more than ‘just sex,’ the way it attempts to rid us of our romantic hopes or, variously, our embarrassment and our ‘hangups,’ is a misguided effort. It is, I will argue, no less than an attempt to cure womanhood itself, and in many cases it has actually put us in danger.” And, argue she does, quite effectively, using articles written by the liberationists themselves in Cosmopolitan, Elle, and Mademoiselle: the liberated woman is not happy. Columnist Mona Charen recently opined that the abstinence program, Best Friends, which helps high school girls postpone sex and turn down drugs and alcohol, has given back to these girls their femininity. "

I don't see how this makes things worse. Divorce rates have risen because women no longer feel the need to stay in an unhealthy marriage. How is that worse? Taking away a woman's choices in trade for less chance at an STD isn't a fair trade in my opinion. The breech between the sexes going deeper is just another way of saying that men no longer can just have their way with women. I totally disagree with the preacher and "others".

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15. May 2012 - 16:07 #10

caroline01

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-ranks-47th-in-mothers-report.aspx?pageID=238&nID=20636&NewsCatID=341

According to research, the top ten countries in which to raise children are Norway, Iceland, Sweden, New Zealand, Denmark, Finland, Australia, Belgium, Ireland and the United Kingdom. Turkey ranked behind Brazil, Israel, Armenia, Tunisia, and Bahrain, while coming ahead of Algeria, Iran, Azerbaijan, and Morocco.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/story/2012-05-08/state-of-worlds-mothers/54819990/1

Save the Children report: USA is 25th best place to be a mom

By Michelle Healy, USA TODAY

Just in time for Mother's Day, an annual ranking of the best and worst countries in which to be a mom puts the USA in 25th place, up from 31st last year.

http://www.savethechildren.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=8rKLIXMGIpI4E&b=7942609&ct=11745065&notoc=1

New Findings Show Breastfeeding Could Prevent One Million Child Deaths Per Year.

"A woman in the US is more than 7 times as likely to die of a pregnancy-related cause in her lifetime than a woman in Italy or Ireland. When it comes to the number of children enrolled in preschools or the political status of women, the United States also places in the bottom 10 countries of the developed world."

Betty Friedan, founder of NOW, referred to traditional family life as a "comfortable concentration camp" from which women needed liberation. Sheila Cronan, one of the feminist movements most respected leaders and spokeswomen said, "Since marriage constitutes slavery for women, it is clear that the women's movement must concentrate on attacking marriage."

Beginning in the 1960s and 1970s they launched an all-out assault on our nation's time-honored laws protecting the marriage union. Divorce was presented as an easy way out for the frustrated, disappointed or adventuresome.

Mel Krantzler, writing in Creative Divorce, stated: "To say goodbye is to say hello ... hello to a new life - to a new, freer, more self-assured you. Hello to new ways of looking at the world and of relating to people. Your divorce can turn out to be the very best thing that ever happened to you." That was a widely held professional opinion for almost a decade.

The number of displaced homemakers rose twenty-eight percent between 1975 and 1983 to more than three million women. Another twenty percent increase from 1983 to 1988 brought that number to more than four million. An astonishing sixty-one percent of those women suddenly left alone had children under the age of ten at home. Often without job skills and stranded without alimony or child support, as many as seventy percent of these women make less than ten thousand dollars a year, and fifty percent are employed at minimum wage or less. It is, thus, readily apparent why a full seventy-five percent of all Americans living below the poverty line in the United States are women and their children.

[Sylvia Ann Hewlett, A Lesser Life: The Myth of Women's Liberation in America (New York: William Morrow, 1986)]

http://www.fathersunite.org/ChildSupport/child_support_or_child_extortion.html

The book "Father and Child Reunion" does a terrific job of articulating how this has happened over the last 30 years and what we need to do to fix it. The author was on the board of the National Organization of Women (NOW) for more than one elected term and fought for female equality for many years. Only when the pendulum swung too far did he begin focusing on the issues that men need fixed.

Today women can choose to kill a fetus without the male having any right to participate in that decision, yet the male is enslaved for 18 to 23 years by that decision with child support - even if the woman tricked him purposely (by committing fraud) by saving his sperm and impregnating herself intentionally. The women's movement claims "my body, my choice" because of the 9 months of inconvenience to gestate a fetus, yet totally ignores the 18 years of effective slavery thrust on men by the decision to have that child! Outrageous, illogical and driven by a powerful feminist movement with no counter balancing men's rights political force.

If there were a "Men's Rights" political force, what then?

QuoteReply

18. May 2012 - 9:03 #11

express

Quotes from a discussion of women's liberation, feminism:

http://www.thinkinghousewife.com/wp/2012/03/womens-liberation-isnt-liberating/

To a reader who said liberalism’s freedoms, presumably sexual and economic freedoms, cannot possibly be construed as anti-woman, the reader Jesse Powell, who is a man, responds:

When a man says to a woman “you are free” he is at the same time saying “you are on your own.” Women’s liberation equals male abandonment. From the man’s point of view the purpose of liberating women is precisely to enable and justify abandoning women.

In the natural patriarchal order, men invest in women and women invest in children. This allows the child’s needs to be met, the woman’s needs to be met, and the man’s psychological needs to be met. If the woman breaks the contract by declaring “I am free” the man no longer has a reason or a motivation to invest in the woman. If the woman takes care of herself then the man taking care of the woman is pointless and redundant. If the woman is willful and disobedient then the man’s investment in the woman will be squandered. Either way, women’s independence destroys the man’s motivation to invest in the woman. This is why women’s liberation equals male abandonment.

Men’s abandonment of women equals women’s abandonment of children. When adults steal resources and time from children by not fully investing in children’s welfare this leads to an ongoing process of intergenerational deterioration. This is why in terms of family indicators the next generation is always worse off than the prior generation.

*****

Look at this sex discrimination suit by a Boston neurosurgeon against a fellow doctor. She won $1.6 million because he allegedly said insulting things about her ability as a female doctor. No woman would be punished for saying similar things about a man. In fact, women publicly say insulting things all the time about men and rarely suffer for it.

Why does Title IX, which has resulted in the disbanding of male collegiate athletic teams, exist? Why is a man who is stronger and more fit for combat than a woman ever passed over by a woman for a position in the military, police or firefighting except by bureaucratic coercion? Why do feminists make all citizens subsidize abortion and contraception? Why do they approve of taxpayer support of unwed mothers and day care? That is not freedom.

If feminists cherish freedom then why do they support unilateral divorce and the right of a person to strip a spouse of property and full custody of his children? Why do they support the power of government to force spouses who have been stripped of their property and children to pay child support on pain of fines or jail sentences? Why do they deny a fetus unwanted by a mother the freedom to live?

By flooding the labor market with women, feminism has led to the decline in male earning capacity and thus forced many women to work who do not wish to. By valuing sexual freedom, feminists necessarily devalue chastity, restricting the freedom of young women to choose the latter. By valuing masculine ambition, feminists devalue nurturing. By saying motherly care is just one of many options, feminism trivializes motherhood and restricts the freedom of the young to develop. None of us are free in the sense that we judge the possibilities before us entirely on our own. We are shaped by our culture.

By making choice the highest standard in personal relationships, feminism trivilializes loyalty and love. That makes people less free to love and express loyalty.

Inequality is innate. A regime that suppresses this truth denies individuals the freedom to attain self-awareness.

The air of permissiveness that liberalism wears is deceptive. If we are encouraged at every turn to choose selfishness, we are not permitted to be good.

QuoteReply

18. May 2012 - 9:21 #12

Alberto Ceras

And from that same Internet site:

http://www.thinkinghousewife.com/wp/2012/03/womens-liberation-isnt-liberating/

Jesse Powell writes:

David said:

“Regardless, while feminists do also have as a goal that women should actually be better off, they view liberation as an end in itself, and as a much higher priority than any measure that tried to help their circumstances while limiting their choices.”

This to me seems to be the fundamental basis of David’s argument in favor of feminism; that mere freedom by itself has “a much higher priority” than the large number of harms caused by women’s freedom. In other words freedom is valued above all regardless of the harm that freedom causes. This is an interesting moral position to uphold. Of course, this position cannot be upheld on a universal or consistent basis as people will always desire the “freedom” to engage in some behavior or to commit some act that is harmful to others. What about the “freedom” to shoplift? What about the “freedom” to commit adultery? What about the “freedom” of a woman to put her child in daycare? All of these proposed “freedoms” involve someone committing a harmful act against someone else for their own selfish benefit. This is exactly what is wrong with feminism. All of the “freedoms” that feminism bestows upon women are simply licenses for the woman to engage in some kind of selfish and harmful act against others for her own benefit. The “freedom” of feminism is predatory; this is exactly why feminism is wrong.

Now I would suppose that David would claim that the “collateral damage” of women’s liberation is less important than the “intended benefits” of women’s liberation. I would argue the precise opposite; that the “collateral damage” of feminism is of much greater importance than the “intended benefits”. I would furthermore argue that the “intended benefits” of feminism in reality have no moral legitimacy at all since all of the “intended benefits” of feminism are based on the woman violating her responsibilities towards others and are therefore morally corrupted.

QuoteReply

18. May 2012 - 17:16 (new) #13

Spectator

Interesting that in the two previous comments, and in the discussion cited, men are defending the feminist movement while women are trashing it.

Alberto Ceras
Joined:
Feb. 4, 2011 11:21 am
Others are starting to come forward with the same conclusion: the experiment didn’t work. Danielle Chrittendon writes in What Our Mothers Didn’t Tell Us: Why Happiness Eludes the Modern Woman “. . . the woman who comes of age today quickly discovers that she enjoys a . . . guarantee of “sexual equality”: the right to make love to a man and never see him again; the right to be insulted and demeaned if she refuses a man’s advances; the right to catch a sexually transmitted disease, that might, as a bonus, leave her infertile; the right to an abortion when things go wrong, or, as it may be, the right to bear a child out of wedlock. Indeed, in all the promises made to us about our ability to achieve freedom and independence as women, the promise of sexual emancipation may have been the most illusory.” In A Return to Modesty Wendy Shallit points out, “The peculiar way our culture tries to prevent young women from seeking more than ‘just sex,’ the way it attempts to rid us of our romantic hopes or, variously, our embarrassment and our ‘hangups,’ is a misguided effort. It is, I will argue, no less than an attempt to cure womanhood itself, and in many cases it has actually put us in danger.” And, argue she does, quite effectively, using articles written by the liberationists themselves in Cosmopolitan, Elle, and Mademoiselle: the liberated woman is not happy. Columnist Mona Charen recently opined that the abstinence program, Best Friends, which helps high school girls postpone sex and turn down drugs and alcohol, has given back to these girls their femininity. "

I think the majority of modern American women never expected equal rights to make life perfect for them. True, women's ranks, just as men's ranks, include those who expected equal rights to make their lives perfect, but most thinking women were never that naive. The majority of women are not now disillusioned, as, apparently, are some of those you like to quote, because perfection has not accompanied equality under law and in society. They'd rather keep those hard-won rights they've garnered by now, and honestly face the realities that come with those rights, than they would to return to any falsely idealized past wherein those rights were non-existent.

All they wanted was an even starting line and the opportunity and rights to go wherever their innate talents and life choices can take them. It's intellectually disingenuous to cite, out-of-context, quotes by women authors taking socially conservative positions on some women's issues as though you're presenting the entire contexts of quoted works and as though those particular authors are considered monolithically authoritative.

When considered in its entirety, your post boils down to a call to view women's issues through the lens of social conservatism. No, thanks.

Ulysses's picture
Ulysses
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote bullwinkle:

DRC post #33 on this thread-"I think the bimbo look that is pervasive on FAUX is akin to Black guys trying to pass as White instead of looking Black. Again, itis not something that I regard as genuine pride or post-racial/post-sexism."

I wonder if your black so-called friends are not laughing at your condescending hypocracy. You are truly a prig and a bigot. Does anyone else notice the hypocracy of DRC? He calls black men down for trying to pass as white instead of embracing thie being black, yet he professes his acceptance as being black by his black friends. No hypocracy there. I know it is impossible for the Kumbya clan to recognize any of the condescension and disgusting hypocracy that is paraded here, it is just "progressive" bullshit.

I see you've still not returned to elementary school and middle school to learn to spell. Yore posts alwaze evoake the distint, melodias twang of Dueling Banjos...

Ulysses's picture
Ulysses
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Ulysses:
Others are starting to come forward with the same conclusion: the experiment didn’t work. Danielle Chrittendon writes in What Our Mothers Didn’t Tell Us: Why Happiness Eludes the Modern Woman “. . . the woman who comes of age today quickly discovers that she enjoys a . . . guarantee of “sexual equality”: the right to make love to a man and never see him again; the right to be insulted and demeaned if she refuses a man’s advances; the right to catch a sexually transmitted disease, that might, as a bonus, leave her infertile; the right to an abortion when things go wrong, or, as it may be, the right to bear a child out of wedlock. Indeed, in all the promises made to us about our ability to achieve freedom and independence as women, the promise of sexual emancipation may have been the most illusory.” In A Return to Modesty Wendy Shallit points out, “The peculiar way our culture tries to prevent young women from seeking more than ‘just sex,’ the way it attempts to rid us of our romantic hopes or, variously, our embarrassment and our ‘hangups,’ is a misguided effort. It is, I will argue, no less than an attempt to cure womanhood itself, and in many cases it has actually put us in danger.” And, argue she does, quite effectively, using articles written by the liberationists themselves in Cosmopolitan, Elle, and Mademoiselle: the liberated woman is not happy. Columnist Mona Charen recently opined that the abstinence program, Best Friends, which helps high school girls postpone sex and turn down drugs and alcohol, has given back to these girls their femininity. "

I think the majority of modern American women never expected equal rights to make life perfect for them. True, women's ranks, just as men's ranks, include those who expected equal rights to make their lives perfect, but most thinking women were never that naive. The majority of women are not now disillusioned, as, apparently, are some of those you like to quote, because perfection has not accompanied equality under law and in society. They'd rather keep those hard-won rights they've garnered by now, and honestly face the realities that come with those rights, than they would to return to any falsely idealized past wherein those rights were non-existent.


All they wanted was an even starting line and the opportunity and rights to go wherever their innate talents and life choices can take them. It's intellectually disingenuous to cite, out-of-context, quotes by women authors taking socially conservative positions on some women's issues as though you're presenting the entire contexts of quoted works and as though those particular authors are considered monolithically authoritative.

When considered in its entirety, your post boils down to a call to view women's issues through the lens of social conservatism. No, thanks.

With all due respect, I love you, Ulysses. We might point out that Alberto's defecation of a "comment" is no different from this:

Quote REV. JERRY FALWELL:

I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians, who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who tried to secularize America, I point the finger in their face and say, "You helped this happen."

The backlash against the women's struggle for equal rights and recognition continues full force, even on the part of supposed liberals. It's a sad thing to say, but, because of the furious backlash against the feminist movement, we have lost ground in a number of areas, as people like Alberto persist in their knuckle-dragging need to keep women in subordinated roles.

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Its interesting to think about how EdB brings up a sort of counterpoint to the idea that modernism has been the context of women's liberation and the enabling historical force behind reshaping notions of "human nature" or human self-expression (the creative re-making of human nature). It seems like the cultural backlash to feminism, or what could be called a reaction to it, has been to reverse the modernist cultural direction by crafting more extreme roles of masculine and feminine than existed where these roles were attendant upon division of labor. EdB's story brings to mind the possibility that small farms might see people relating in a benevolent fashion and thus the questions of gender relations are resolved in that context. We are freed from the monstrosity that has become modern industrialism by reconnecting to our physical natures through work in the form of creating physical nourishment and establishing a healthy relationship to the ecosystem. Even though of course not everybody would be a farmer, just the cultural and social impact of a transformation of the way we live speaks to a sort of "dialectic" for lack of a better word which seeks a transformation of the state of things at the current moment of opportunity.

nimblecivet's picture
nimblecivet
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Nimblecivet:

Its interesting to think about how EdB brings up a sort of counterpoint to the idea that modernism has been the context of women's liberation and the enabling historical force behind reshaping notions of "human nature" or human self-expression (the creative re-making of human nature). It seems like the cultural backlash to feminism, or what could be called a reaction to it, has been to reverse the modernist cultural direction by crafting more extreme roles of masculine and feminine than existed where these roles were attendant upon division of labor. EdB's story brings to mind the possibility that small farms might see people relating in a benevolent fashion and thus the questions of gender relations are resolved in that context. We are freed from the monstrosity that has become modern industrialism by reconnecting to our physical natures through work in the form of creating physical nourishment and establishing a healthy relationship to the ecosystem. Even though of course not everybody would be a farmer, just the cultural and social impact of a transformation of the way we live speaks to a sort of "dialectic" for lack of a better word which seeks a transformation of the state of things at the current moment of opportunity.

Very very good summation and observation, NC. I do feel this sense of transformation, even of my own consciousness about our roles and what liberation can mean, beyond strict role designations offered by either patriarchy or matriarchy. It feels like a growing, more mature sense of ourselves and our natures, which must be connected to nature itself, balance and wholeness being the goal.

This morning I was reading Susan Faludi stuff, interviews and the like. On one site, she mentioned how the current crop of young feminists have vehemently rejected their elder feminists, to adopt the very extreme role media culture offers them as their path to liberation, i.e., the idea that hyper-sexualized appearances liberate them and is where their power is to be found. What it means to me is that the backlash has succeeded. Rather than women finding power in womanhood, in being serious beings with sex as one aspect of their whole beings, they have acquiesced to the demands of misogyny by making sex their main aspect. To be a sex object is now to be liberated?

I think of modern industrialism and "the state of things" as an opportunistic disease of a sort. Our culture has been compromised and its immune system weakened for lack of ecological balance. Thus we get infections such as sexism, racism, homophobia, class inequity, poverty and the rest of our social ills. Well, you know what I think is lacking— balance between feminine and masculine principles. That's what needs to enter the zeitgeist, if you will. In my humble opinion.

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Zenzoe:

[quote]With all due respect, I love you, Ulysses. We might point out that Alberto's defecation of a "comment" is no different from this:

[quote=REV. JERRY FALWELL]

I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians, who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who tried to secularize America, I point the finger in their face and say, "You helped this happen."

Yeah, Boy Howdy, ol' Jer sure was one fine oracle of "true" Christianity, wasn't he? I remember like it was yesterday that when 911 happened, he was running around publicly telling everybody that the Apocalypse was upon us and that 911 reflected the will and wrath of God. WHAT A LUNATIC! (But you'll notice, if you listen, that none of his sucessors or any of the fundy nuts that comprised his "flock" have much to say about that, do they?)

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Ulysses
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Ulysses:
Quote Zenzoe:

With all due respect, I love you, Ulysses. We might point out that Alberto's defecation of a "comment" is no different from this:

Quote REV. JERRY FALWELL:

I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians, who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who tried to secularize America, I point the finger in their face and say, "You helped this happen."

Yeah, Boy Howdy, ol' Jer sure was one fine oracle of "true" Christianity, wasn't he? I remember like it was yesterday that when 911 happened, he was running around publicly telling everybody that the Apocalypse was upon us and that 911 reflected the will and wrath of God. WHAT A LUNATIC! (But you'll notice, if you listen, that none of his sucessors or any of the fundy nuts that comprised his "flock" have much to say about that, do they?)

I know. But thankfully he's dead now. He helped it happen— you offended the Goddess, JF, and She killed you.

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

NC

I think we live in a very "dirt" based times in many ways. The link below represents one of natures fascinating lessons for understanding life and being and not just farming and growing food. It has been a very profound basic realization for me with it's relationships to many of the present personal and cultural ills. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEtl09VZiSU

EdBourgeois's picture
EdBourgeois
Joined:
May. 14, 2010 12:24 pm

The disease impacts the animal world as well. The hard, dead heart of show horse training: Cruelty Exposed in Gaited Horse World.

"Soring of all breeds has been banned for decades under the HPA, but the technique is still used by unethical trainers to get that high step. The practice involves methods that include putting caustic substances, such as mustard oil, Croton oil mixed with kerosene or diesel oil, on the sensitive skin around their hooves at their pasterns, bulbs of their heels and coronary bands to cause blistering, burning and irritation and wrapping them in plastic wrap to make sure its absorbed, which makes them quickly lift their legs to avoid pain."

Bastards!

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Alberto wrote "Today women can choose to kill a fetus without the male having any right to participate in that decision, yet the male is enslaved for 18 to 23 years by that decision with child support - even if the woman tricked him purposely (by committing fraud) by saving his sperm and impregnating herself intentionally. The women's movement claims "my body, my choice" because of the 9 months of inconvenience to gestate a fetus, yet totally ignores the 18 years of effective slavery thrust on men by the decision to have that child! Outrageous, illogical and driven by a powerful feminist movement with no counter balancing men's rights political force."

Good point, Alberto.

dhavid
Joined:
Jul. 16, 2010 10:41 am

I agree with you here. Within a marriage, the male should have equal legal rights with the female as to whether or not the child should be aborted. And I believe that has been challenged in court with lawsuits, but I can't be sure.

Outside of a marriage, just as women should be aware that they may get pregnant with someone who could easliy disappear, men should be aware that they can be easily tricked into 18 years of financial responsibility—and not always equal legal child rights. I have seen this ruin many lives and it is a tragedy.

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Karolina
Joined:
Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm
Quote dhavid:

Alberto wrote "Today women can choose to kill a fetus without the male having any right to participate in that decision, yet the male is enslaved for 18 to 23 years by that decision with child support - even if the woman tricked him purposely (by committing fraud) by saving his sperm and impregnating herself intentionally. The women's movement claims "my body, my choice" because of the 9 months of inconvenience to gestate a fetus, yet totally ignores the 18 years of effective slavery thrust on men by the decision to have that child! Outrageous, illogical and driven by a powerful feminist movement with no counter balancing men's rights political force."

Good point, Alberto.

...

...and the paranoid sexists join forces once again! Hah hah hah, oh I was so right about you, David. Thanks for removing all benefits of my doubts.

Oh those poor, besieged men, enslaved by hordes of "seed-stealing, self-impregnating Harpies..." Oye. What a laugh.

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

And you, Zenzoe, are a bigot.

dhavid
Joined:
Jul. 16, 2010 10:41 am

BS, Karolina. I'm amazed that you would think a woman should not have the final say as to whether she should bear a child. My god, it's her body!

I am equally amazed you would give credence to the notion that women "trick" men in the way Alberto's rant implied. It's paranoid, because the incidence of such trickery is very very rare.

The reality is that men and women have sex, and sometimes pregnancies occur. For a man to imagine he can have sex and not be responsible for the outcome too, is a sexist perspective.

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote dhavid:

And you, Zenzoe, are a bigot.

Projecting again, David?

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

That is my opinion based on what I've seen and experienced in my life. If a woman has decided to get married to someone, she has entered into a bond with a man where she has rights to his body as much as he has rights to hers, i.e. sexual monogamy for both partners. Helping each other grow spiritually and creating a family is the purpose for marriage to a spiritual person—not taxes, power, or control!

Promiscuity means that you are not in that kind of bond with anyone, and being in denial about that is perilous for both men and women—on many levels. I don't see this as a sexist perspective, I see this as reality.

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Karolina
Joined:
Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm

No, Laura. I have recently become nauseated with your prolific, narrow-minded, self-serving, myopic bullshit. It's just that simple.

You seem to be nothing more than a verbal bully, with a very dull, monotonous axe to grind.

dhavid
Joined:
Jul. 16, 2010 10:41 am
Quote dhavid:

No, Laura.

Who's "Laura?" Oh. I see. I forgot to include the "H" in dhavid. That IS a big deal, no doubt.

Quote dhavid:

I have recently become nauseated with your prolific, self-serving bullshit. It's just that simple.

You seem to be nothing more than a verbal bully, with a very dull, monotonous axe to grind.

O how the worm doth turn. Well, I can't help it if what I have to say presents difficulties for your self-image. And I'm certainly not going to behave according to your rules of proper behavior for me, just to avoid offending you. Believe me, I will not be bullied into conforming to your rules.

I must say, however, it saddens me that you feel so offended by my opinions. It's not the first time I have lost people over differing opinions. My niece cut me out of her life because I couldn't be a Catholic; and I didn't even say much about it, just that I loved her but couldn't be anything but who I am. Here, again, I care about you, but I can't conform to your world view.

So, you don't like my thoughts on "women's issues," or how I express them. You feel nauseated to read them. I guess, if you keep reading what I write, you'll still be nauseated. I can't do anything about that. All I can say is that I hope you feel better soon.

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Karolina:

That is my opinion based on what I've seen and experienced in my life. If a woman has decided to get married to someone, she has entered into a bond with a man where she has rights to his body as much as he has rights to hers, i.e. sexual monogamy for both partners. Helping each other grow spiritually and creating a family is the purpose for marriage to a spiritual person—not taxes, power, or control!

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, Karolina. I don't accept any notion that rejects each human being as having autonomy, as owning the integrity of their own, separate bodies. And I do not see my view as being antithetical to a couple's ability to "grow spiritually." The very idea, that within a marriage, I could be forced by my husband to either abort or carry a pregnancy to term, is entirely alien to the life of the spirit, which demands autonomy and freedom.

Quote Karolina:

Promiscuity means that you are not in that kind of bond with anyone, and being in denial about that is perilous for both men and women—on many levels. I don't see this as a sexist perspective, I see this as reality.

Here again, we'll have to agree to disagree, I hope. If people are promiscuous, they may imagine they have no responsibility for the consequences of their actions, but the reality is that consequences are built into that behavior by biology and happenstance. To make women bear the burden of those consequence alone is unfair; but that unfairness comes of an opinion that would punish women, while letting men off the hook. It is informed by a long tradition of religious sexism, where promiscuous women are sluts and whores, but the poor helpless and hapless men have been seduced by "those harlots."

Regardless, if a man doesn't want to be vulnerable to such rare tricks, he should take precautions: have a vasectomy or wear a condom. Of course, they won't. But that's life, isn't it?

Btw, I've also known of men —a rarity too— who deliberately put holes in the condoms they used, either to cause a pregnancy or infect their sex partner with AIDS. Where a man deliberately impregnates a woman, most of the time they can walk away afterward, sometimes not; in the case of AIDS dirty tricks, sometimes they get caught and are prosecuted.

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Nothing to do with my self image. When I see your comment "With all due respect, I love you, Ulysses. We might point out that Alberto's defecation of a "comment" is no different from this:" What I see in your comment is violence, degradation, and character assassination. I don't know Alberto, he seems decent enough to me, but who do you think you are? Thus, " I have recently become nauseated with your prolific, narrow-minded, self-serving, myopic bullshit. It's just that simple.You seem to be nothing more than a verbal bully, with a very dull, monotonous axe to grind......"

What goes around comes around.

dhavid
Joined:
Jul. 16, 2010 10:41 am

I don't know what to tell you, Zoe—its not about man vs. woman. Its about good vs. evil.

Since we are all spirits before we are anything else, there are no real divisions other than good vs. evil. And it's better when good is victorious in every aspect of our lives—including government and economy. That's love—and we could be losing it right now.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

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Karolina
Joined:
Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm
Quote Karolina:

I don't know what to tell you, Zoe—its not about man vs. woman. Its about good vs. evil.

Since we are all spirits before we are anything else, there are no real divisions other than good vs. evil. And it's better when good is victorious in every aspect of our lives—including government and economy. That's love—and we could be losing it right now.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

If you had been following my comments, Karolina, you should have known that for me it isn't at all "man vs. woman." That you would think it suggests to me that either you haven't read my posts, or, you haven't grokked what I'm all about. However, I am not going to repeat myself, or try to get through to you; you have at least read some of my comments and obviously haven't comprehended my position. At this point, it becomes futile to try to communicate with individuals who express a prejudice that seems based on the stereotyping of the anti-feminist backlash.

I honestly can't do anything about what others project onto my opinions. I could be wrong, but I do believe you and dhavid come from a religious and "spiritual" background, which informs your world views. I have a bias too; but it's a bias that arises from my own experience, observation and study. My world view coincides, as I have learned over the course of this discussion, with the ecofeminists. I am not ashamed to be a feminist, and no amount of shaming will make me so. And, I see the ecofeminist world view as clearly devoted to love, the love of nature, and the care of Mother Earth, each other, as well as all life on the planet.

Love, in short, is an aspect of the Feminine Principle, not of women, per se. But I can't help it if you read that as "man vs. woman." It's nothing of the sort.

Yes, for now we'll have to agree to disagree. Someday we may come to see eye to eye; in the meantime, I have to go search out how to build a compost, so I can love my backyard garden better.

Zenzoe
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

IMO the feminist backlash is profoundly evil, however it is no surprise to me.

If you read my thread which I brought back to the current Economics forum, you will see that I define the attitude and behavior of human beings as good and evil:

All forms of human subjugation: BAD.

All forms of humanity, sharing and respect: GOOD.

That's all.

We are experiencing the beginnings of a long-planned subjugation of all human beings under a global oligarchy. That is what we all need to be aware of. That is the big fight.

When the danger of oligarchy and the danger of human extinction due to war, genoside, etc. is gone—we will also be rid of the feminist backlash.

Karolina's picture
Karolina
Joined:
Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm
Quote Karolina:

IMO the feminist backlash is profoundly evil, however it is no surprise to me.

If you read my thread which I brought back to the current Economics forum, you will see that I define the attitude and behavior of human beings as good and evil:

All forms of human subjugation: BAD.

All forms of humanity, sharing and respect: GOOD.

That's all.

We are experiencing the beginnings of a long-planned subjugation of all human beings under a global oligarchy. That is what we all need to be aware of. That is the big fight.

When the danger of oligarchy and the danger of human extinction due to war, genoside, etc. is gone—we will also be rid of the feminist backlash.

GOOD or BAD, EVIL vs GOOD only perpetuates WAR

Quote zenzoe:Love, in short, is an aspect of the Feminine Principle, not of women, per se.
A nice place to start

EdBourgeois's picture
EdBourgeois
Joined:
May. 14, 2010 12:24 pm

Currently Chatting

The GOP war on workers has killed again...

It’s time to stop the conservative's war on working people in America.

Since the birth of our nation, conservatives have always been wary of average working-class Americans having too much political or economic power. John Adams, the second President of the United States and a Federalist (precursor to today’s Republicans), was very wary of the working class, which he referred to as “the rabble.”

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