Ed Shultz-the Soviet Union was Socialist not Communist

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Friday, April 10, about 10am Pacific Time.

The topic was some dope Republican on CNN claiming there are COMMUNISTS in Congress. The Republican couldn't name any. Then Ed had a guest, the leader of the Progressive Caucus. Ed asked him about Communists. In the meaning from the "Communist Soviet Union" days.

Ed really could seize on this issue by pointing out that COMMUNIST CHINA is COMMUNIST. And W Bush and family have business partnerships with the then unelected President of COMMUNIST CHINA. American money going into building a COMMUNIST military.

And... that American corporations are fueling the rise of COMMUNIST CHINA, the sworn enemy of America and Democracy.

Lockheed built the Communist missile launch system under H Bush. Prosecuted under Clinton and plead guilty. Why doesn't the Corporate Media tell us about this?

Link to summery of the Federal case. Like Iran/Contra it's much much worse than the official version.
www.spaceandtech.com/digest/sd2000-15/s ... -001.shtml

Why doesn't Ed give some truth to those Republicans calling Democrats COMMUNISTS?

dArKeR's picture
dArKeR
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Comments

Because no one in the US seems to really have any idea what communism or socialism actually means.

ah2
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Dec. 13, 2010 10:00 pm

Jesus was the last "communist" as in a communal life. Maybe Steven Gaskin. Nothing communal about Soviet Russia, China or anywhere a dictator governs. Buzz words rule the media and politics. Loaded with baggage to stigmatize someone/thing using less words. Divide and Conquer. Socialists or Nationalists might be a better term, though neither the Nazi's or Soviets were very social. More like Fascism. Unions got labeled "communists" and adopted the title in some circles, even forming a political party with the misnomer. Though any I've met were more sociable than the dictators would have been. Bashing workers is an old game of the moneysluts. Corporate Government or Government Industry end in the same results and require some authority to rule by force or coersion. Neocons on the other hand are both republican and democrat and now have no political affiliation, allegiance or souls if you ask me. Joined with the G-20 1%, world banksters and multinational corporations using outsourcing and finance to break the middle class. That is who is trying to hijack our democracy. Keeping the parties fighting while they rob Fort Knox and legislate profits. Just an example, I know Ft Knox was emptied long ago.

Thank God for Hippies

"All propaganda must be so popular and on such an intellectual level, that even the most stupid of those towards whom it is directed will understand it. Therefore, the intellectual level of the propaganda must be lower the larger the number of people who are to be influenced by it."

"Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way around, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise.
From Benito Mussolini
contributing to the "London Sunday Express," December 8, 1935

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DdC
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Mar. 22, 2012 1:39 am

Were we able to have a discussion about democracy, or just self-government for a free people, we would not be bamboozled by the economic theories posing as politics. Fear of "communism" was sold by "free market" democracy/capitalism ideologues who were following the old fear of Jacobin Revolution and the inherent superiority of America and our "Anglo-Saxon, Christian" leading edge of human civilization and God's Providence.

When we trace the roots of this mythology to actual economic practices, we find piracy, banking and insurance to serve piracy, the enclosure-industrialization realities Marx found revolting and a rather primitive civilization in anthropological and sociological history. The right to plunder as well as the use of finance to bypass the Parliament by the kings led the British American colonies to give less human and political rights to the natives than the Spanish or French did. Secure in the narcissistic legend of "apostolic succession" and the bypass of Catholic Europe, we forged ahead thinking that we had the pure Gospel for just about everything.

Then there is fear of immigration and the legacy of the Civil War to combine slave revolt with labor and union organizing as a threat to the White. The rights of masters and "owners" does not bear close inspection in any moral philosophy or political theory, but it fits into "my money" and "free markets" where "free" becomes about freedom, but hardly "for all." We see the detritus of this kind of thinking all around us, pushed by the propagandists to serve the established powers.

Back to a discussion of democracy and how a free people governs itself and gains the respect of the world for this honorable conduct. We may have to clear the ground to avoid getting lost in the underbrush. The Soviet Union went back to a czar with Stalin. "Communism" or "Socialism" is not what it was about.

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DRC
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It looks like the US is going down the road to "corporate communism" or where instead of the government being the central authority a few corporations are. This is not fascism because even with fascism you can still have personal property ownership.

Karel mentioned the other day that he had talked personally with California Lt. Governor Gavin Newsom and Gavin said "never underestimate how screwed up government can be." He told Karel things are pretty bad. We have a government that has been hijacked by the wealthy and they want to turn us all into serfs. Are you going to go willingly like sheep or are you willing to fight them?

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captbebops
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Quote dArKeR:

COMMUNIST CHINA is COMMUNIST. And W Bush and family have business partnerships with the then unelected President of COMMUNIST CHINA. American money going into building a COMMUNIST military.

And... that American corporations are fueling the rise of COMMUNIST CHINA, the sworn enemy of America and Democracy.

Lockheed built the Communist missile launch system under H Bush. Prosecuted under Clinton and plead guilty. Why doesn't the Corporate Media tell us about this?

These are very good points and things I've wondered about for a long time. Our trade policies with China are helping fund China's military buildup and they have been having war game excercises with Russia. It seems the only issue with have with Communism nowadays is to keep Cuban cigars out of America. Double standards are ok when profits are to be made I guess.

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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Remember when they said Reagan won the Cold War? Actually, he and the USSR lost to China.

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Actually, if China were Communist, then according to Marx, " the state must wither away". I really don't see that happening.

Labelling something so doesn't make it so.

The primary tenent of socialism is direct worker ownershiip of their workplace. The country that came closest to that was the U.S. at its founding...when the majority of the non-slave population owned their own workplace as independent farmers, shopkeepers or craftsmen. Euopeans wanted to duplicate the American experience. They called it socialism.

The American slogan at the beginning of the industrial revolution, , "People who work at the mill should own the mill", reflects our socialist past that was being destroyed...... direct worker ownership of their workplace.

Government ownership isn't "socialism". The term socialism has been so re-defined it's now referred to as parecon. Participatory Economics. A new term had to be devised to cover its true function.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease".

polycarp2
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

When I mention that I believe the ideal would be a combination of socialism with limited small business (because government has no business running a corner grocery) and people ask me an example I DO think that was what the founding fathers had in mind. They did limit the size and lifespan of corporations and it took about 100 years for the suits to do away with that.

More likely we're moving toward something like an "Open Source" world where much is shared yet some personal ownership of things where appropriate. The battle is between who gets to run it and I hope the people win over the rich bastards.

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captbebops
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The battle is between who gets to run it and I hope the people win over the rich bastards.
Since money is power, ownership is power, the odds are oligarchy wins. People power or the 99% is democracy. The only chance of returning to democracy, away from the oligarchy plutocracy we have now, is a generation of progressives taking back the SCOTUS. An agressive enforcement of Sherman anti-trust, along with a constitutional convention might save the union. As it stands now there is no union, and the system is more of a Corleone capitalism, with strong arm thuggery denying voting rights, scotus preventing civil law solutions even though the constitution gaurantees it.

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douglaslee
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Quote polycarp2:

Actually, if China were Communist, then according to Marx, " the state must wither away". I really don't see that happening.

Labelling something so doesn't make it so.

The primary tenent of socialism is direct worker ownershiip of their workplace. The country that came closest to that was the U.S. at its founding...when the majority of the non-slave population owned their own workplace as independent farmers, shopkeepers or craftsmen. Euopeans wanted to duplicate the American experience. They called it socialism.

The American slogan at the beginning of the industrial revolution, , "People who work at the mill should own the mill", reflects our socialist past that was being destroyed...... direct worker ownership of their workplace.

Government ownership isn't "socialism". The term socialism has been so re-defined it's now referred to as parecon. Participatory Economics. A new term had to be devised to cover its true function.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease".

Amen Brother.

What America has is Corporatism or Fascism - collusion of corporations and state.

ah2
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Dec. 13, 2010 10:00 pm
Quote captbebops:

When I mention that I believe the ideal would be a combination of socialism with limited small business (because government has no business running a corner grocery) and people ask me an example I DO think that was what the founding fathers had in mind. They did limit the size and lifespan of corporations and it took about 100 years for the suits to do away with that.

This might work for an example. In British Columbia the government (people/socialism) own about 95 percent of the forested land base. This ownership is controlled by the BC Ministry of Forests. The MOF leases out cutting permints based on a few different license arrangements. A major licensee has a dilineated area that an allowable annual cut (AAC) is set and established for sustainability reasons (in theory) and the licensee can harvest. Only since 1987 has the licensee been made responsible for silviculture, replanting, etc. By having state ownership of the land base, the people have decreed that the land base shall remain open and free, with the exception of deactivating roads and such measures for wildlife protection. So, anybody can go anywhere at anytime. There are no gates and no No Trespassing signs all over the place as they are here in Washington State. With Weyerhaeuser and Plum Creek and you name it private corporations owning the land since the railroad expansion giveways. By the way did you know that Frederick E. Weyerhaeuser was Skull and Bones?

http://viewfromthemeadow.com

Skull and Bones was founded in 1832 by William H. Russell, who patterned the organization after a similar group in Germany. The purpose of the society is to create a New World Order that places the richest families in control and is founded on the belief that the world’s most important decisions should be made by those who are bred to make them. The objectives of the society are similar in many ways to those of the fascist organizations in Nazi Germany.

The members’ feeling of superiority over non-members is insufferable and highly questionable. They tend to be like the leaders at Enron, who considered themselves smarter than everybody else, and the chains of influence formed with their fellow bonesmen ensure the success of their schemes.

Weyerhaeuser had a sweet deal and continues to reap profits from their founder's elite connections. They log old growth, then second growth, then third growth and since they own the land, they develop it into housing subdivisions. Guess who owns some of the biggest housing development companies in the world . . .?

Here's a big one here in Washington St. http://www.quadranthomes.com/

Below the pictures on this link you will see some more large homebuilder, subdivision makers: http://www.weyerhaeuser.com/Businesses/Wreco

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Choco
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

That is not how communism works in the real world. Clearly, there is a great misunderstanding among people who are raised in the criminal capitalist societies due to them being indoctrinated their whole lives by the lies of the ruling class. The works of Marx, while undoubtably forward looking and meant with good intent, are not to be considered as a bible to be followed blindly. The only way for a country to get to be a communist nation in reality is to do it, and that requires working out what is suitable to a real communist society by the actual implementaion of policies that work, and those aren't always the way that Marx envisioned them. You have to remember that Marx was an idealist and was not working with a system where he could test his theory on a working model. The only truly communist system in the world where communism has been implemented and has then been overwhelmingly successful is in Cuba, therefore Cuba is the prime model of communism and the only one which should be referred to when making comparisons to other systems.

The working model of communism is about ensuring all of the basic needs and safety of all citizens and not about everyone having identical wealth with no distinction between top to bottom. It is about ensuring that every citizen has full rights to healthcare, education, civil defense protection, food and lodging and freedom from persecution. Communism is not about turning people into slaves or automatons, that is for criminal capitalist ruled societies although that truth is well camouflaged under a mountain of lies.

Note:I originally posted the above in Thom's blog yesterday but this thread seems a more appropriate place to continue discussing what communism and socialism really are.

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jmacneil
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Mar. 6, 2012 7:24 pm

What Marx didn't envision or predict was that his idea of communism wasn't the pinnacle of societal development and that it would take a true working model of a communist system to expose that there was indeed an ideal working model of governance that surpasses all others. That new ideal was a people who governed themselves in such a way that they would actively engage in programs that would literally benefit the lives of people in other nations while seeking no recompense for that humanitarian work. Such programs as Operación Milagro (Operation Miracle), in which the Cubans have operated on and restored the sight to over 2,000,000,000 (two million) people in neighboring countries, for free, have vaulted them into the pinnacle of developed society. And that program is just one among many that has transformed their communist system into what can only be described as Humanism, which is the system that both gods and men need aspire to.

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jmacneil
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how can you say that communism is a success in cuba?

cuba has started to allow some private ownership of property but before 2006 when they started to move towards capitalism they were broke and starving.The WHO said before 2006 or so that malnutrion and starvation was normal in cuba. the average cuba citizen makes 17 to 30 dollars a mouth. they are still driving the old crappy cars that the U.S. left behind when we were kicked out. before we were kicked out cuba was were the rich and famous when to vaction. the country was on par with florida or any other state in the country at the time. now that communism has taken over, it rates below most third world countries.

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workingman
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Mar. 20, 2012 8:13 am

Private ownership is kind of an illusion in this country. You have to pay taxes on it forever and due to eminent domain it can be seized at any time. Cuban citizens don't make much because they don't need much. In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king. 50 grand a year in New York puts you in the poor category while 50 grand a year in South Dakota makes you upper middle class. It's all relevant to costs and needs of each individual community.

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Bush_Wacker
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that does not explain why they are starving, have little to no running water, drive 60 year old cars, and risk their lives to excape the country....

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workingman
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It's the same answer as it has always been. Those in charge decide who starves and who does not. Some people understand that and try to "excape". Whether it's our country or a third world country doesn't change that fact. I love my country but I'm not foolish enough to think that there's not enough to go around that allows so many of our citizens to starve. Different systems all have one thing in common. Somebody of power ultimately decides who gets what.

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Bush_Wacker
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Quote workingman:

that does not explain why they are starving, have little to no running water, drive 60 year old cars, and risk their lives to excape the country....

So you've been to Cuba! Tell us all about it. I've been wanting to visit and talk to the people in my pidgin Spanish to find out for myself.

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.ren
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No I have not been to cuba I will not go to a communist country I as m going by the w.h.o. And reports from cuba immirgrants that have escaped.

Still does not explain why they are so poor if communism is so good.

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workingman
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Oh, excuse me, you seemed so authoritative that I thought you knew what you were talking about.

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.ren
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No I have not been to cuba I will not go to a communist country I as m going by the w.h.o. And reports from cuba immirgrants that have escaped. Still does not explain why they are so poor if communism is so good.

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workingman
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That explains a lot. Thank you.

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.ren
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Ok so you are saying people who used to live there do not know what is going on, as well as the world health org.

So explain if communism is so good and cuba is so successful why are they such a dirt poor country that people risk their lives to get out?

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workingman
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How presumptive of you!

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.ren
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Nice explaination, I guess that you either do not have one or you know communism does not work and has failed every time it has been tried.

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workingman
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You see, I know nothing about Cuba nor communism. But I was wondering why they are number 7 on the Happy Planet Index while the U.S. is number 114. And I was hoping I'd finally found someone who could tell me.

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.ren
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When the people come around in cuba to see how happy you are. You lie to them so the government hit squads do not kill you for talking bad about the country.

Now how about that explaination

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Facts about Cuba [and I've been there]

Regardless of all these obstacles, the socialist island has managed to provide its inhabitants with what the United States, one of the most affluent countries in the world, so far has not: free top-notch health care, free university and graduate school education, and subsidized food and utilities. Meanwhile, 36.2 million people go hungry in the United States and 47 million lack health coverage. Indeed, Cuba compares favorably to the United States on a number of basic social factors:

  • Housing: There is virtually no homelessness in Cuba. Thanks to the 1960 Urban Reform law, 85% of Cubans own their own homes and pay no property taxes or interest on their mortgages. Mortgage payments can’t exceed 10% of the combined household income.
  • Employment: Cuba’s unemployment rate is only 1.8% according to CIA data, compared with 7.6% (and rising) in the United States. One factor contributing to Cuba’s low unemployment is undoubtedly the 350,000 jobs that have been recently created by the burgeoning sustainable urban agriculture program, one of the most successful in the world, according to U.S.-based economist Sinan Koont.
  • Literacy: The adult literacy rate in Cuba (99.8%) is higher than the United States’ rate (97%), according to the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP).
  • Infant mortality: Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate (4.7 per 1000 live births) than the United States’ (6.0).
  • Prisons: Cuba even does better on prisons. Its rate of incarceration—estimated at around 487 per 100,000 by the UNDP—is among the highest in the world, yet it is considerably lower than the U.S. rate of 738 per 100,000. Now that the number of political prisoners Cuba locks up is in decline, according to a February Associated Press news release, there is even less justification for the blockade.

The fact that a poor, formerly colonized country can meet its citizens’ basic needs, while outperforming the United States on key measures, underscores how inexpensively the United States could follow suit. Cuba’s example could prove instructive to President Obama and his constituents as the United States faces economic collapse. And herein may lie the real motivation of the blockade, and its most significant cost: it keeps people from making such comparisons first-hand. If the only concrete threat the Cuban Revolution poses to the United States these days is the threat of a good example, isn’t it high time we bury the blockade?

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Quote workingman:

When the people come around in cuba to see how happy you are. You lie to them so the government hit squads do not kill you for talking bad about the country.

Now how about that explaination

But you said you haven't been there... So you are just speculating, sad to say, and you can't explain what I want to know.

Each country’s HPI value is a function of its average subjective life satisfaction, life expectancy at birth, and ecological footprint per capita. The exact function is a little more complex, but conceptually it approximates multiplying life satisfaction and life expectancy, and dividing that by the ecological footprint. Most of the life satisfaction data is taken from the World Values Survey and World Database of Happiness, but some is drawn from other surveys, and some is estimated using statistical regression techniques.

178 countries were surveyed in 2006, compared to 143 in 2009. The best scoring country in 2009 was Costa Rica, followed by the Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Guatemala and Vietnam, with Tanzania, Botswana and Zimbabwe featuring at the bottom of the list.

(Happy Planet Index)

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.ren
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The american blockaid is a waste of time however it will not change the fact that cuba is a third world country that was starving to death until they starting allowing private ownership of land and the right to keep what they produce. That is why the urban ag program is so huge.

In the u.s. You go to jail for breaking the law in cuba you are killed cause you want to leave.

they may have a higher literacy rate but they are only allowed to read what the government says they can.

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workingman
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Sure I can I did, the government controls the flow of info so they can keep the people stupid, as well as the people are to scared of government death squads to say anything bad about the country

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workingman
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Mar. 20, 2012 8:13 am

Obviously I can't answer your questions, and clearly all you can offer are your speculations for mine. I think that's about as this can go.

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.ren
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Quote .ren:

Obviously I can't answer your questions, and clearly all you can offer are your speculations for mine. I think that's about as this can go.

You call it speculation I call it an answer why woukd I ask a question I coukd not answer? At this point am going to stop trying to get an answer to my question because you can not or refuse to answer the question. I guess it is so complicated you do not have the ability to explain it.

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workingman
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Gee ren, I hope you are enjoying the catch and release fishing. Bossman is a typical example of an American Know it All with Zero Experience of what he talks about.

The effing blockade has kept great Cuban music from being easy to get here, and for us to have to get on the Government Watchlist if we want to go there. All because the Mafia and some rich elitists lost their gambling and bordello's on the Island when Castro offered to pay them the assessed valuation for the nationalilzed properties.

It has not been perfect. There was a period of homophobic persecution. And, having very good reason to fear American coup and subversion, they have not been great on dissent. But, everyone knows that Castro wins elections without needing the cheat. The people have education, food and housing they did not get under our friendly dictators, like the unlamented Batista. And Miami is filled with the Big House folk who lost their entitlements when the People got theirs.

That, and baseball players who want to make money in the majors. Drop the blockade and the latter just become another South of the Border set of bonus babies for beisbol in America.

Bossman's view of the world comes on a set of 3X5 cards from Capitalism Inc.

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DRC
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I'm just helping to demonstrate how a CONtroll invents arguments in its desperate attempt to get attention, DRC. I never tried to set the hook on the thing. It's very clear he's inventing. Given his hours of participation on this site, he's probably sitting in a cubicle somewhere with those three by five cards.

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.ren
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Apr. 1, 2010 7:50 am

I understand perfectly. It has even been raining and windy in Paradise, so the equivalent of the wood fire stove and cup of fresh brewed coffee has kept me here too. I must leave for the Rose City tomorrow and will have a lot less time to be here. Carry on, but stay happy. Aloha.

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DRC
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Quote DRC:

I understand perfectly. It has even been raining and windy in Paradise, so the equivalent of the wood fire stove and cup of fresh brewed coffee has kept me here too. I must leave for the Rose City tomorrow and will have a lot less time to be here. Carry on, but stay happy. Aloha.

We had heavy coastal fog this morning and the weather folks predicted rain. But that just burned off and we have sunshine! I'm outa here! Spring got a huge adrenaline shot of energy from the sun over the weekend and it's nearly turned the place green in two days. Have fun yourself.

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.ren
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Apr. 1, 2010 7:50 am
Quote DRC:

Gee ren, I hope you are enjoying the catch and release fishing. Bossman is a typical example of an American Know it All with Zero Experience of what he talks about.

The effing blockade has kept great Cuban music from being easy to get here, and for us to have to get on the Government Watchlist if we want to go there. All because the Mafia and some rich elitists lost their gambling and bordello's on the Island when Castro offered to pay them the assessed valuation for the nationalilzed properties.

It has not been perfect. There was a period of homophobic persecution. And, having very good reason to fear American coup and subversion, they have not been great on dissent. But, everyone knows that Castro wins elections without needing the cheat. The people have education, food and housing they did not get under our friendly dictators, like the unlamented Batista. And Miami is filled with the Big House folk who lost their entitlements when the People got theirs.

That, and baseball players who want to make money in the majors. Drop the blockade and the latter just become another South of the Border set of bonus babies for beisbol in America.

Bossman's view of the world comes on a set of 3X5 cards from Capitalism Inc.

the u.s. Is the only country that limits travel to cuba even with all the other countries in the world able to travel and trade there and yet they still can barely feed themselves. Sounds like a successfull society to me. Castro runs unopposed because if you soeak out against him the death squads come for you.

If you want cubain music you can freely buy it in every other country.on the planet or order it on line.

Neither one of you have ever answered.a question I have ever asked about capitalism or communism. So you can try to insult me but all you are doing is proving you do not have the ability to answer the questions so you throw insults

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workingman
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Mar. 20, 2012 8:13 am
Quote .ren:

I'm just helping to demonstrate how a CONtroll invents arguments in its desperate attempt to get attention, DRC. I never tried to set the hook on the thing. It's very clear he's inventing. Given his hours of participation on this site, he's probably sitting in a cubicle somewhere with those three by five cards.

I work in the construction industry we build casinos and night clubs I have an office but spend more of my time in the company truck.

Are you and drc thankful breathing is involentary?

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workingman
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Mar. 20, 2012 8:13 am
Quote workingman:
Quote DRC:

-----------------------------

Neither one of you have ever answered.a question I have ever asked about capitalism or communism. So you can try to insult me but all you are doing is proving you do not have the ability to answer the questions so you throw insults.

(See how they keep trolling for attention, DRC? It's always the ego bait they throw at you. Back and forth, back and forth they drag it, even though the fish aren't biting. That's why on some sites they'll usually put up signs like: Don't Feed the Trolls! They feed on insults. Variable reinforcement, you know, Powerful Skinnerian programmer.)

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.ren
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U.S.Al Qaeda!

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Shades of Vietnam
Lobbyists War Over Billions in Antidrug Aid
New US Aid To Colombia - Deeper Into Antidrug Mire
From Vietnam to Colombia
Columbian schoolchildren sprayed from above
Into the Quagmire
Colombia Agrees To Test Herbicide On Cocoa
"No Mas!"

Exporting DEAmocracy
This is part of our global contribution. The drug war has become the preferred foreign policy approach toward controlling much of the world. We export our drug war, our tactics, and, most of all, our DEA.
(Now with offices in Belize, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Mexico, Canada, Panama, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Honduras, Paraguay, Colombia, Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Venezuela, Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, Chile, Antigua and Barbuda, Barbados, Dominica, Grenada, St. Kitts & Nevis, St. Vincent & the Grenadines, St. Lucia, Aruba, Netherlands Antilles, Suriname, Jamaica, The Bahamas, Turks & Caicos Islands, Haiti, Guyana, Trinidad & Tobago, Suriname, Dominican Republic, Cambodia, Thailand, Mongolia, Australia, Cook Islands, Fiji, French Polynesia, New Caldeonia, New Zealand, Niue, Papua New Guinea, Solomon Islands, Tokelau, Tonga, Tuvalu, Vanuatu, Wallis & Futuna, Western Samoa, Vietnam, Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan, Malaysia, Kiribati, Nauru, Philippines, Burma, South Korea, Brunei, East Timor, Indonesia, Singapore, Japan, Laos, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Georgia, Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Greece, The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Romania, Bahrain, Chad, Dijibouti, Egypt, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Kuwait, Libya, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen, Oman, Pakistan, United Arab Emirates, Afghanistan, Russia, Bangladesh, India, Maldives, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Cyprus, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Kazakstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Liechtenstein, Switzerland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Greenland, Iceland, Latvia, Lithuania, Norway, Sweden, Czech Republic, Germany, Benin, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Congo, Equatorial Guinea, Gabon, The Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Ivory Coast, Liberia, Mali, Mauritania, Niger, Nigeria, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Togo, Western Sahara, Channel Islands, Ireland, Isle of Man, Northern Ireland, United Kingdom, Azores, Balearic Islands, Canary Islands, Cape Verde, Gibraltar, Portugal, Principality of Andorra, Spain, Spanish Enclaves (Ceuta & Melilla), Algeria, France, Monaco, Morocco, Tunisia, Angola, Botswana, Burundi, Central African Republic, Comoros, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Kenya, Lesotho, Madagascar, Malawi, Mauritius, Mozambique, Namibia, Rwanda, Seychelles, South Africa, Swaziland, Tanzania, Uganda, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Albania, Bosnia, Croatia, Italy, Malta, Montenegro, San Marino, Serbia, Slovenia, Netherlands, Poland, Austria, Belarus, Hungary, Moldova, Slovak Republic, Ukraine.)

Oh can't forget Thailand and scab labor from rounding up Souders drug prisoners. Trickle down in action. American jobs sacraficd so Thailand can exploit their prison slaves the same as the kochroach Bros. are doing with the 2.2 million American prisoners. Or exploiting cheaper labor for kids failing college tuition standards... Who needs Unions or Sovereignty with Neocons?

US PRAISES THAI DRUG WAR!
From February of 2003, to 100 days later, June 2003, Thai police executed over 4,000 Thais, jailing 60,000, in a bid to meet targets set by the Thai Prime Minister to 'complertely end all illegal drug use by whatever means necessary'.
Thailand: US Official Declares War On Drugs A Success
(27 Nov 2003) Bangkok Post Thailand
A senior US drug official yesterday hailed Thailand's war against drugs as a success.

A Lie College Students Might Want To Tell
Souder reported he made two trips last year -- one overseas and one to Florida -- that he did not pay for. The U.S.-Thailand Business Council paid the bill for a 16-day trip to Thailand last fall, and the Council for National Policy paid for Souder's flight and overnight expenses to make a speech in Orlando in March 1996. In 1998, Rep. Mark Souder, R-Ind., an advocate of stringent drug laws, slipped into a House bill an amendment denying federal financial aid for college to anyone who had been convicted of either selling or possessing drugs.

DdC's picture
DdC
Joined:
Mar. 22, 2012 1:39 am
Quote .ren:
Quote workingman:
Quote DRC:

-----------------------------

Neither one of you have ever answered.a question I have ever asked about capitalism or communism. So you can try to insult me but all you are doing is proving you do not have the ability to answer the questions so you throw insults.

(See how they keep trolling for attention, DRC? It's always the ego bait they throw at you. Back and forth, back and forth they drag it, even though the fish aren't biting. That's why on some sites they'll usually put up signs like: Don't Feed the Trolls! They feed on insults. Variable reinforcement, you know, Powerful Skinnerian programmer.)

I do not feed on insults and I am not the one who threw them out to begin with you and drc did. I asked a question that you were incapable of answering so you started with insults. Which proves the old addage he who insults has lost the debate, because they can not counter your points or answer your questions.

Here is one more if the u.s. Stops exporting food 500 million people will starve to death in one year. Cuba is supposed to be so successful we shoukd model our government after it how many people outside of cuba will starve todeath if they stop exporting food?

workingman's picture
workingman
Joined:
Mar. 20, 2012 8:13 am

Bossman, you should visit Cuba and then report on the "starvation" and "police state." The stuff you get from the anti-Castro exiles is not what others find. I sure those who escaped America to Canada or went back to Europe had their horror stories about "the revolutionaries."

Communism and capitalism are economic theories, not political systems. Social reality requires more than either of these 19th Century squabbling siblings can deliver. While you live in your truck and build such worthwhile edifices, you might examine who is paying you. Much as I love support for the performing arts, I think the "entertainment industry" is doing a terrible job while gambling is the New American Dream. Playing the numbers was always a way for the desperately poor to have a shred of hope, a hope they knew could not come from working hard and playing by the rules.

If you are not being paid for your time here, are you some kind of socialist or missionary?

DRC's picture
DRC
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote workingman:
Quote .ren:

.............

I do not feed on insults and I am not the one who threw them out to begin with you and drc did. I asked a question that you were incapable of answering so you started with insults. Which proves the old addage he who insults has lost the debate, because they can not counter your points or answer your questions.

Here is one more if the u.s. Stops exporting food 500 million people will starve to death in one year. Cuba is supposed to be so successful we shoukd model our government after it how many people outside of cuba will starve todeath if they stop exporting food?

Interesting.

Here is the extent of my interaction with you to date (I've provided links so you can double check easily for yourself):

I told you I thought you must have been to Cuba.

You corrected me.

I acknowledged my error and asked you to excuse it.

You offered further explanation

I accepted and thanked you.

Than you made some presumptions.

I noted you had done so.

You assumed I attempted an explanation (I had not) and then you made some more attempts at assumptions.

I explained, finally, that I know nothing about communism. Then I informed you of what I hoped you could help me understand.

Then, despite the fact you admit you have never been to Cuba, you attempted yet another non 1st person explanation, which, by the way, is all I have ever been looking for in our interchange. I frankly am not interested in your speculations.

I emphasized you haven't been there, then indicated that's what I need for you to give me the explanation -- your personal experience -- then I gave you a quote of how the information involved in my question was gathered, which had nothing to do with your speculation.

I have no idea what this post was about.

Here, with this post, I'm only guessing because you don't make yourself clear about what you are referencing, but you seem to think your speculation was somehow an answer to something, which, if you are talking about my question, obviously it can't be since you were never in Cuba, and that's what I require for an answer.

I did the best I could to clarify we could go no further.

You insisted you had answered me. Then you ignored that I had told you I know nothing about communism and told me your question must be so complcated I don't have the ability to explain it. Whereby of course it is difficult to ignore that you raise a question of my "ability" to explain something complicated, not my knowledge of a subject, which I don't claim to have, so one might wonder why you want to slander my ability in that way, given that up to this point I'd been exceedingly polite and been careful to tell you want I wanted you to explain (which you clearly haven't and can't, since you haven't been to Cuba). You see when you disrespect someone's ability, especially without cause, that cancels out any respect that person might feel for you. Furthermore, there was no debate, I was merely asking you to explain something.

Do you have any idea what an impression you've made at this point?

At that point, unfortunately, DRC stepped in.

My interchange with DRC represents the obvious to me -- given that I've had extensive experience with trolls on this board -- regarding our exchange, which of course includes your slandering of my ability to explain something which I claim to know nothing about, which I could easily consider an insult if I were so inclined, I think anyone could. Do I need to state the obvious (perhaps with you it's necessary)? The following is false on all counts:

Quote workingman:

I do not feed on insults and I am not the one who threw them out to begin with you and drc did. I asked a question that you were incapable of answering so you started with insults. Which proves the old addage he who insults has lost the debate, because they can not counter your points or answer your questions.

You feed on insults, obviously. You worked very hard for what you think are insults.

I asked you the question that you are incapable of answering (because you've never been to Cuba and that would be a requirement for my answer).

There was no debate.

And I'm not debating whether I've speculated that you are a troll. I did. Now I'll let you do the proving.

.ren's picture
.ren
Joined:
Apr. 1, 2010 7:50 am

It is without doubt, as "workingman" has noted, that there have been times when the Cubans had a difficult time providing food for their citizens during the maturation of their revolution, but it is unfair of the aplogists of the U.S. to be blaming the Cuban system when in each such instance the food shortage could arguably be traced to foreign polices that were beyond the power of the Cubans to rectify on a short term basis, such as when a pig cull necessitated eliminating a large segment of the swine population, a primary staple, due to an infectious disease purposely introduced by the U.S.,

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2009/04/28/cia-link-to-cu...

And, of course, the worst period was arguably when the Soviet Union collapsed and Cuba was uncerimoniously cut adrift by their fickle partners who'd displayed a similar type of unreliability during the missile crisis in 1962. But times have changed and it's been near two decade since the worst of times for the Cubans and all indices are looking up for them, so arguing about their past condition is no more relevant for today than arguing about the assassination of JFK and whether it has relevance to the present rulers of the U.S. What is pertinent about the present state of affairs in Cuba, now that they've realized that they cannot afford to depend absolutely on anybody else for their well being, is that not only are they able to feed their people but they are able to do so in a sustainable way that is a model which the rest of the world will eventually have to follow.

jmacneil's picture
jmacneil
Joined:
Mar. 6, 2012 7:24 pm

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