Fair taxes

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Quote workingman:
Quote Laborisgood:
Quote workingman:
Quote Laborisgood:
Quote workingman:

The only problem I have with labor unions is you can not reward individual achievement. If you have a worker that is smarter faster and overall better than the rest you can not give him a bonus or a raise. He can only be paid what everyone else is paid.

Not true. My union and most construction trades can pay more than scale, but they can't pay less. Depending on the company, the economy and the type of work, someone can make whatever the market will bear above scale. I was at $10 over scale when I left my previous employer along with holidays, vacation and a vehicle.

So you made 10 dallors an hour more than the average worker in your union working for your company that did the same job?

Yes, I made $10 over scale. I was managing others who made a few dollars over and some who were at scale. You are obviously wrong with your assertion that unions do not allow for rewarding individual achievement. I can't speak for other unions, but construction trades do allow for this.

You claimed earlier that the only problem you have with unions is their inability to reward individual achievement. Surely you can come up with a few more union canards to support your hollow ideology.

No you misread what I asked I asked if you were working on the line doing the same job as everyone else you got paid 10 dallors more... You said yes but now say you were a suppervisor. As supervisor you should be paid more. So again if you and your co worker both doing the same job not a supervisor you were paid more.

You misread me. There is no limitation on how much you can pay someone in my union, but you must pay at least scale. The others making over scale were not "supervisors". Aside from that, my job prior to that I was at a $7 over and working with a guy at $12 over and neither of us were supervising anyone but ourselves. Again, there are no restrictions to paying someone more than someone else who is doing the same work in my union.

Your assertion is still just as wrong as it was last time. You certainly must have mispoken when you claimed this phenomena is the only problem you have with unions. I'd be more than happy to enlighten you on any other misunderstandings you may have about unions.

Laborisgood's picture
Laborisgood
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote workingman:
Quote Dominic C:
Quote workingman:
Quote Art:
you can not reward individual achievement.
Here's how labor unions work

how does that have anything to do with unions?

Clueless...

Lions attacked a water buffalo a crocodile tried to take it away but did not succeed. Labor unions bargin for more rights from their employeer. The employeer is not trying to steal their kill but the union is trying to steal the companies meat so if the unions are the crocodile than yea that is how unions work.

You really don't get it do you Lion-errr Bossman?

P.S. Did you watch the video to the end?

Dominic C
Joined:
Jun. 27, 2011 10:39 am

Back to bossman, you were the one who raised the depressing factor of union "tenure" as your problem with unions. Initiative did not get rewarded. Sloth was protected. It was all about the freedom of the boss to make the correct business and moral decisions. That was your frustration.

I gave you credit for wanting to be a good boss, for wanting to reward good work and be personally generous. I did not call it buying the loyalty of those dependent upon you and calling it "freedom." You have your frustrations, and could look more closely at them to heal them. But you still cannot make your freedom define the freedom of others. You cannot just blame your inconveniences and frustrations on others.

Unions are not perfect. Human beings show up there as well as in the houses of Greed and the Crooked Casino. A lot of the folks who work for the crooks are not crooks. They are not exactly "free," but they are working for their pay. What part of their paycheck comes from the legitimate businesses run by the crooks or from their crimes is impossible to define. Is this a union lining up to support the MIC where everyone "wins" other than the taxpayer? Is this one about opposing Corporate Dominance so workers and small business can share the wealth now going to the banksters? Is this one about protecting its members from redundancy or able to address quality of life?

Fortunately, irony, we get to compare these unions with the corporate world of work and jobs--and how does it get worse? Shoving workers under the bus while taking the money and running on out the door is now a "good business plan." It makes money for the investors, so who cares about people and communities? Gotta' protect that "bottom line" in the race to the bottom. Debts are holy no matter where they come from. Got it.

In my conversations with ren, the problems of scale are considered in the discussion of democracy. We, and a lot of OWS thinkers, are not looking at more of "The State" but for a macro-coordinating and unifying identity community where we hold each other accountable to democracy and not to do tyranny or oppress conscience in the spirit of "liberty and justice for all." The metaphors of the methodology also get questioned, so "the institutions of democracy" or the "engineering and design" all bring presumptions to mind. We would like more possibility rather than more pathology in the light of what self-governance demands of us as "a people." We cannot just go to isolated and out of touch localism; so what does connect us and enrich being everywhere and anywhere? What do we establish to use beyond the familiar and few in democracy?

BTW, look for big changes in the way money is understood and used. The banksters do not model what a good theory of social investment and profit in shared prosperity and security promises. They have done it to themselves, this time. Couldn't find a way to stop being stupid drunks on hubris. Had to show us why we have to take them down and do finance another way. It makes it easy to address the pain and suffering, easy to find and always in need. Just bring the bankbook and meds.

We can afford this, of course. Particularly if we force the banksters and the pharms to stop padding our bills. I would fire them and do their work through public institutions owned by the taxpayers. If there are political issues involved, I would rather have them where votes are public than where arms are twisted or loyalties bought even if we get to see it happen. That is just way too disgusting.

There is a lot that is broken and needs to be fixed. It might be an even better idea to update and replace instead of "fix" in the narrow sense. Doing something is how we would learn to do the better or best thing. We don't want to get stuck replacing the wrong from the past with its copies. We want to meet the need the best way we can. And there is so much to do! Those who think America is not broken are in serious denial. We can "fix" and remodel, or even "teardown" as needed. Building eco-responsible "built environment" for human beings can be a profound part of this "fixing."

You might even enjoy hanging out after work with people who bring human value to their work and have human lives apart from work where they also care about the healing of the earth and society.

DRC's picture
DRC
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Dominic - not an executive of any sort. Just a lazy, etc. worker who was forced into early retirement after 45 years of steady employment. My first job, in the mail room of an insurance company, paid $1.25 an hour with full benefits. My last job paid a healthy $20 an hour, but no benefits. I was able to get the Pre-Existing Condition Insurance Plan (thanks to our president and the state of California) for as long as it took me to get a hip replacement. Just 5 weeks before my scheduled surgery, I was fired and had my unemployment benefits blocked.

So, I am retired and living in Michigan and living on a little less than $1,100 per month. Lucky me, I only have another 8 months before I qualify for Medicare.

Pepper W's picture
Pepper W
Joined:
Dec. 19, 2011 12:42 pm
Quote workingman:
Quote Karolina:

You are posting all day long, 7 days a week typing away on your phone, while working hard on your laborious construction job, bitterman? You must be a hard worker!

Working on casinos we work early in the morning and late at night. So durning the day things get slow or I am not at work but when you arr sleeping I am working.

If you work all night, and post all day, when do you sleep?

BTW..........construction and remodel work in commercial buildings is usually done in cordoned off areas seperate from the public, during normal hours, and sometimes around the clock. The protocol you mention falls more in line with custodial work.

anti-Republicon
Joined:
Aug. 21, 2011 10:37 pm
Quote Laborisgood:
Quote workingman:
Quote Laborisgood:
Quote workingman:
Quote Laborisgood:
Quote workingman:

The only problem I have with labor unions is you can not reward individual achievement. If you have a worker that is smarter faster and overall better than the rest you can not give him a bonus or a raise. He can only be paid what everyone else is paid.

Not true. My union and most construction trades can pay more than scale, but they can't pay less. Depending on the company, the economy and the type of work, someone can make whatever the market will bear above scale. I was at $10 over scale when I left my previous employer along with holidays, vacation and a vehicle.

So you made 10 dallors an hour more than the average worker in your union working for your company that did the same job?

Yes, I made $10 over scale. I was managing others who made a few dollars over and some who were at scale. You are obviously wrong with your assertion that unions do not allow for rewarding individual achievement. I can't speak for other unions, but construction trades do allow for this.

You claimed earlier that the only problem you have with unions is their inability to reward individual achievement. Surely you can come up with a few more union canards to support your hollow ideology.

No you misread what I asked I asked if you were working on the line doing the same job as everyone else you got paid 10 dallors more... You said yes but now say you were a suppervisor. As supervisor you should be paid more. So again if you and your co worker both doing the same job not a supervisor you were paid more.

You misread me. There is no limitation on how much you can pay someone in my union, but you must pay at least scale. The others making over scale were not "supervisors". Aside from that, my job prior to that I was at a $7 over and working with a guy at $12 over and neither of us were supervising anyone but ourselves. Again, there are no restrictions to paying someone more than someone else who is doing the same work in my union.

Your assertion is still just as wrong as it was last time. You certainly must have mispoken when you claimed this phenomena is the only problem you have with unions. I'd be more than happy to enlighten you on any other misunderstandings you may have about unions.

So what you are saying is your union worked out a union contract and than you went in seperate from your union and renegoitated a better deal just for you. Whichis against union rules.

workingman's picture
workingman
Joined:
Mar. 20, 2012 8:13 am

Can we flag this thread as a dead-end??

Pepper W's picture
Pepper W
Joined:
Dec. 19, 2011 12:42 pm

I second that motion!

Karolina's picture
Karolina
Joined:
Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm
Quote Dominic C:
Quote Pepper W:

Dominic - I am (almost) speachless! There is not an individual on Earth who works hard enough to earn $10 or $15 or $50 million dollars a year.

50 million???

I think you're short one zero there Pepper! Aren't you a healthcare executive too?

Pepper W's picture
Pepper W
Joined:
Dec. 19, 2011 12:42 pm
Lions attacked a water buffalo a crocodile tried to take it away but did not succeed. Labor unions bargin for more rights from their employeer. The employeer is not trying to steal their kill but the union is trying to steal the companies meat so if the unions are the crocodile than yea that is how unions work.
I guess symbolism doesn't work for everybody. That's OK. I had trouble with Finnegan's Wake, too.

Art's picture
Art
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote workingman:
Quote Laborisgood:
Quote workingman:
Quote Laborisgood:
Quote workingman:
Quote Laborisgood:
Quote workingman:

The only problem I have with labor unions is you can not reward individual achievement. If you have a worker that is smarter faster and overall better than the rest you can not give him a bonus or a raise. He can only be paid what everyone else is paid.

Not true. My union and most construction trades can pay more than scale, but they can't pay less. Depending on the company, the economy and the type of work, someone can make whatever the market will bear above scale. I was at $10 over scale when I left my previous employer along with holidays, vacation and a vehicle.

So you made 10 dallors an hour more than the average worker in your union working for your company that did the same job?

Yes, I made $10 over scale. I was managing others who made a few dollars over and some who were at scale. You are obviously wrong with your assertion that unions do not allow for rewarding individual achievement. I can't speak for other unions, but construction trades do allow for this.

You claimed earlier that the only problem you have with unions is their inability to reward individual achievement. Surely you can come up with a few more union canards to support your hollow ideology.

No you misread what I asked I asked if you were working on the line doing the same job as everyone else you got paid 10 dallors more... You said yes but now say you were a suppervisor. As supervisor you should be paid more. So again if you and your co worker both doing the same job not a supervisor you were paid more.

You misread me. There is no limitation on how much you can pay someone in my union, but you must pay at least scale. The others making over scale were not "supervisors". Aside from that, my job prior to that I was at a $7 over and working with a guy at $12 over and neither of us were supervising anyone but ourselves. Again, there are no restrictions to paying someone more than someone else who is doing the same work in my union.

Your assertion is still just as wrong as it was last time. You certainly must have mispoken when you claimed this phenomena is the only problem you have with unions. I'd be more than happy to enlighten you on any other misunderstandings you may have about unions.

So what you are saying is your union worked out a union contract and than you went in seperate from your union and renegoitated a better deal just for you. Whichis against union rules.

No, you nitwit. It is NOT against union rules. They only have rules about the minimum amount you can pay someone. How dense can you be?

Laborisgood's picture
Laborisgood
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

How do you pay $30,000 a year in federal income taxes building casinos? I had assumed you were your own contractor. That's over $80/hour. Is there that much overtime?

chilidog
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote workingman:
Quote Pepper W:

It seems to me that if everyone was paid a truely living wage, everyone would be paying taxes and contributing to the "general welfare" of the country. I'd be happy to be earning enough to pay 30% in taxes. Hell, I be even happier to pay 40% if you threw in single payer healthcare!

The minimum wage needs to be revised up to where anyone working full time can support him/herself and pay the taxes that keep our teachers working and firefighters and police.

And, by the way, how rude to say that just because someone is not rich, they're not successful? Thay's a fairly scornful attitude.

A living wage is a myth that can not be achieved. Say you raise the fed min wage to 20 dollars am hour all products across the board will increase in cost in response to the higher cost of labor. This will leave the min wage worker right bavk where he started or worse unemployed when the company cut workers that are not worth that much money per hour.

Not true. The last increase to the minimum wage lead what had been $20.00 of fast food to increase to $20.01. Retail $20.00 of goods before, were now $21.25. So, for the minimum wage worker, an increase of $2/hr = $80/ week, and $240 / month. Which the poor spend the majority of their income on rent, food and transportation. And under the worst case scenario of an increase of costs of 10%, an increase of wages from 5.25 to 7.25 , or alomost 20%, the worker comes out a mile ahead.

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Phaedrus76
Joined:
Sep. 14, 2010 8:21 pm

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Why the Web of Life is Dying...

Could you survive with just half of your organs? Think about it. What if you had just half your brain, one kidney, half of your heart, one lung, half a liver and only half of your skin? It would be pretty hard to survive right? Sure, you could survive losing just one kidney or half of your liver, but at some point, losing pieces from all of your organs would be too much and you would die.

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