look to Europe

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Liberals and Progressives like to look to Europe for ideas and use it as support for their agenda. Well, state contol and looking to the government are part of European history. People in Europe were through most of history subjects to their Kings and Queens. The Royal owned all and their subjects place was to serve and know their place in society. Subjects did not have rights unless given by the nobels. The leaders knew best and told them so. The American history is that of self rule, private ownership, self determinantion and natural rights.

Marlin60
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You might have noticed that the 20th Century happened in Europe and that after two great wars, democracy replaced monarchy and governments provided social supports and benefits instead of feudalism. You have also ignored how economic royalism has risen in America to undercut the sense of "liberty and justice for all" and to make the specter of Communism the new anti-Jacobinism and fear of slave revolt.

You are wrong on two continents.

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DRC
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Europeans used to run around naked with egg in their hair and slept with pigs. What could your point possibly be?

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planetxan
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If Europe and Cuba are so great go, leave us ignorant, racist, homophobic, or what ever other insult you wish to use on regular decent Americans alone. By the way, if you disagree with Che, he would have just shot you in the head.

Marlin60
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Wow. Please carefully and deliberately explain what the hell you are talking about. My curiosity runneth over. Who did I insult? I was merely making the point that how people in Europe lived 1000 or 5000 years ago is irrelevant. Most Americans are descended from those same Europeans. Your statement is nonsense. Please try to respond to this post and not the distracting little picture next to it. My avatar is not my argument.

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planetxan
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

You point about pigs and eggs is nonsense. European culture from the middle ages to early 20th is that of kings and subjects. The Americans who are descendended from Europe, Africa and Asia left for good reason, read some history from someone other than Howard Zinn. You choose your avatar for a reason, I assume like many Progressives, you look up to Che. The man who is responsible for the death of many people.

Marlin60
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During the Roman empire, the Celts were running around Europe naked with egg white in their hair to make it stand up and look scary. (Tacitus, The Histories) Amongst the descendants of these naked wild men are, Adam Smith, Andrew Jackson, and me (on my mother's side). The Germans of the time were not much more civilized. After the fall of the Roman Empire these same Europeans slept with the pigs in squalor (not sexually) while the Arab world flourished.

The Kingdoms of Europe developed out of the structure of the aristocratic families of Rome. (Much of which was imported to the southern US. and to a larger extent to Latin America, where slave-owning plantations were virtually identical to Roman estates that existed only 1000 years before.) In fact these 'Kingdoms' were true 'free-marketers.' They owned all the land and if you wanted to live there, you paid rent, in the form of a portion of your labour. If you did not want to live there you were free to go. Unfortunately for you, all land was privatized. You could not buy your own. There was some common land eventually, but as this became enclosed during the early industrial period, the people who depended on the production of this public land had no means to support themselves.

But by that time there was an entire new continent to move to. The government on that continent gave many of these Europeans 100 acres of land for free, provided they used it productively for a certain amount of time (Homestead Act). This same government gave away more free land to people if they would build railroads on them to access this newly opened up land. Ideology did not drive most of the Europeans here, desperation did. Not desperation created by monarchy, but that created by industrialization, over-population and famine. (The Magna Carta had already limited the powers of monarchy long before mass migration to North America. The French, on the hand, invented the guillotine.) I do not need to go into why the Africans 'immigrated' here.

Howard Zinn was not a source for any of this. This is common knowledge. I have not read his book.

Nor have I stated what my political beliefs are.

My avatar is funny, in an ironic way. Perhaps you just do not get it.

So, once again, what the hell are you talking about?

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planetxan
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BTW, so far you have assumed that I have insulted you, that I am not regular and decent (or American?), that I prefer both Europe and Cuba, that I agree with Che, that if I did not he would shoot me, that I only get history from Howard Zinn, that I am a Progressive, and that I 'look up' to Che.

Your track record on assumptions is very poor. I would suggest staying away from making more of them. I have given you enough to discuss without relying on making things up for me.

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planetxan
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These threads get ridiculouser and ridiculouser. Where else can you learn that the Nazis were Socialists and Europe is a bunch of monarchies?

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Art
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Initially Nazi political strategy focused on anti-big business, anti-bourgeois, and anti-capitalist rhetoric. Yes, the party did change under Hitler, just like Communist countries drifted under powerful leaders like Stalin and Mao. Europe was a bunch of monarchies and history has influence on present. Just like the influence of slavery on African Americans.

Marlin60
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Apr. 9, 2012 4:04 am
Europe was a bunch of monarchies and history has influence on present.
Why don't you explain some of these influences to us. we're getting a little whip-lashed, here. Europe is Socialist? Europe is Monarchist? Whuh?

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Art
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Quote Marlin60:

You point about pigs and eggs is nonsense. European culture from the middle ages to early 20th is that of kings and subjects. The Americans who are descendended from Europe, Africa and Asia left for good reason, read some history from someone other than Howard Zinn.

Uh, are you aware that most of today's Americans who descended from Africans and Asians did not leave home to come here, so much as they were dragged from their homes, enslaved, chained, and beaten into submission to be slaves here building railroads, and working plantations?

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Phaedrus76
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American history is of a culture of the most crass exploitation and mass murder in order for the new rulers to obtain dominion over all the land. It's been that way ever since the whites came to North America and it has never ceased since. The "American" history is of continual war, instigating war, using proxy forces for undeclared war and covert war; that and stealing what they've got which they like to claim they "earned" through their own praiseworthy business acumen. History has never seen such a corrupt, lying, torture ridden culture ascend to prominence as has happened in the U.S. The wonder of it all is that the majority of the population are basically decent, though no doubt they are ignorant of the true nature of their "republic" due to the near total ownership of the media and the teaching institutions' reliance on the propaganda textbooks that come out of that fabrication mill.

One thing that is for certain, even though the criminals and dupes of the evil empire would like to delude themselves into thinking otherwise, is that the imperialists are the real dead enders of history and everything that they stole which they think they now own is eventually going to be taken away from them. And when that happens a large section of the U.S., most logically in the northwest sector below the Canadian border, will have to be turned over to the government of the aboriginal peoples so that there can be a healing of their race.

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jmacneil
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Wow! I had no idea, thanks for the education.

Marlin60
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The other aspect is, in business we follow a "best practices" method. Within a company if one producer is doing a better quality of work, or is producing much more than anyone else, management tries to figure out what that one person is doing and has everyone else copy that.

With healthcare, if you look around, no country is trying to emulate the US healthcare system. Some have tried to copy the British system, which is very complicated for the govt to do.

Most of the rest copy either a single payer model (Medicare for everyone) or the German/Swiss model of mandated health insurance with strict regulations on the insurance companies and healthcare providers.

The PPACA was a step towards the German/Swiss model. Regulating the insurance companies, without much restrictions on the healthcare providers.

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Phaedrus76
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I'm curious Marlin. What do you percieve as the liberal and progressive agenda? What is my agenda?

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Bush_Wacker
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Quote planetxan:

Europeans used to run around naked with egg in their hair and slept with pigs. What could your point possibly be?

I understand that if you go to the beach, they still run a round nekkid.

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rigel1
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Jan. 31, 2011 7:49 am

Probably when we established ourselves on this continent, we shouldn't have founded a system similar to Europe's monarchies...where a very few ended up owning everything worth owning. Titles of Kings and Lords have been replaced by titles of Bankster, Financier and CEO.

We'd have been better off adopting the Native American system...where all owned everything worth owning in common. Egalitarian and democratic.

If our limited democracy lasts as long as the Iroquois Confederation did, we'll be doing well.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

.

polycarp2
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Quote Bush_Wacker:

I'm curious Marlin. What do you percieve as the liberal and progressive agenda? What is my agenda?

Not sure of your agenda, you are much more open and reasonable than others on this site. I listen to Thom, study history and current politics, so I have a good grasp on the Progressive agenda. What do think the Libertarian agenda is? What is my agenda?

Marlin60
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Everybody has an agenda, but it usually isn't driven by political ideology. Typically egos will be in the driver's seat until financial realities kick them out the door and into the street. My experience is in the construction business, but I'm sure it applies to other fields as well. When you have unlimited time and money available, ego wins the day. However, there is rarely unlimited time and money and eventually financial obligation dictates the final outcome. Political ideology is a localized distraction that gets wrestled with as egos and money fight for the upper hand. Putting all of that aside in a quest for common good is the ultimate agenda is it not?

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Laborisgood
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From experience with libertarians attempting to make sense out of their radical individualism and rejection of almost all government, I would describe the "agenda" as adolescent and egocentric. At its best, it does try to project a universalism of individualized autonomy and consent in place of social reality and the need to embrace our interdependence along with our individual dignity and freedom. What has passed for political individualism has foundered on the rocks of Austrian economic utopianism.

The "agenda of Progressivism" in the 19th Century and early 20th includes some of the overall managerial bias of the social sciences. For example, the major theologians of the Social Gospel were looking to harness the laws of society in much the same way their industrial counterparts had harnessed the laws of nature to give us human control of factors earlier generations had treated as mysteries. But, they were also trying to put the interests of people over the interests of rulers and their ideas about society were highly interdependent and couched in freedom of conscience and person.

I would say that the current Progressive Agenda is far less managerial and deeply opposed to both the Imperial State and the Corporate Domination of commerce. Many of us here have debated the issue of "progress" because it retains too much of the teleology of the American Century national mythology. We just look to the greater inclusion of citizen participation in political and economic power and local control within a broad commitment to universal human and civil rights.

How do you feel about "liberty and justice for all?" Is that radical Marxism?

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DRC
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Quote Marlin60:
Quote Bush_Wacker:

I'm curious Marlin. What do you percieve as the liberal and progressive agenda? What is my agenda?

Not sure of your agenda, you are much more open and reasonable than others on this site. I listen to Thom, study history and current politics, so I have a good grasp on the Progressive agenda. What do think the Libertarian agenda is? What is my agenda?

Not fair. You didn't answer my question. I'll show you mine if you show me yours. LOL

Seriously though, I never claimed that you or Libertarians had an agenda. You stated above that Liberals and Progressives have an agenda. I can give you my "perception" of the progressive agenda. That is to progress forward without reliving the past. Moving forward for the good of all mankind and not just myself. To leave the planet in better shape than when I found it. I mean that's about it. I'm not here to lift gay rights upon my shoulders, I just won't stand by and let it be beat upon. I'm not here to hold the poor on my shoulders, I just won't stand by and let them be demonized and trampled upon. In it's simplest for I'm just trying to be a good neighbor. If you were being beaten in an alley by a gang of republicans (LOL, I couldn't help myself) I would jump into the fray and try to help you even knowing that I was gonna get my ass kicked. Is that really so bad?

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Bush_Wacker
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There are libertarian true believers and libertarian propagators. Sometimes they are the same. The one thing that times them together, along with conservatives, and even some liberals, is an overriding desire for simplicity - a simple set of rules that explains it all. There is no such thing, especially in a highly complex, highly industrialized world.

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planetxan
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

If that is the Progrressive agenda, it gets lost with the class warfare, America is a racist nation, the rich are bad, goverment control is best, spread the wealth and other such things. I beleive in helping my fellow man, but on my own not through government. Local charity is direct. I believe in live and let live. No problem with any group of people. Will help the helpless, but refuse to help the ones who will not help themselves and demand others take can of them. I beleive I worked my way up in life and others can. I don't hold anything againist the rich. I know a man who is the President of a large insurance company, who makes millions. He is a good family man who worked his way up, his oldest child remembers saving change to be albe to go out for a family dinner. If he makes 1 or 100 million dollars, I don't care. Large powerful central goverments tend to trample on individual rights for the greater good, only a large central government can do the harm of the ones under Hitler, Mao or Stalin. A small limited goverment can not. I think the individual is the greatest minority. I will help and defend those who need it but don't demand or try to take what is mine from me.

Marlin60
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Apr. 9, 2012 4:04 am
Quote Marlin60:

I will help and defend those who need it but don't demand or try to take what is mine from me.

Me, myself and I ...... a Libertarian's 3 best friends.

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Laborisgood
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A small limited government can't do anything. A large less limited government can do something but they won't unless they're overlords let them. There can't be a big bad government when they are not the ones calling the shots.

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Bush_Wacker
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Yes!

Marlin60
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Apr. 9, 2012 4:04 am

But Marlin, you claimed to have studied history and you believe this nonsense! I find it tragically adolescent and moralistic without a shred of analysis. Democracy is about governing ourselves as a free people. It is not about abandoning the whole idea for private and personal decency without any protection against the predators, the warlords and landlords.

Sigh.

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DRC
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

DRC, despite what Thom says on his show Libertarians are not Anarchists, Somalia is not a Libertarian utopia, Hong Kong closer. A small government can offer protection without infringing on individual liberties. The USA is a Republic not a Democracy. In a Democracy the majority can vote against the rights of the minority. What "nonsense" do you refer too? Individual liberty and freedom, keeping more of what one works for, ability to take care of one's family and local community with out funneling through government bureaucracy?

Marlin60
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Quote Marlin60:

DRC, despite what Thom says on his show Libertarians are not Anarchists, Somalia is not a Libertarian utopia, Hong Kong closer. A small government can offer protection without infringing on individual liberties. The USA is a Republic not a Democracy. In a Democracy the majority can vote against the rights of the minority. What "nonsense" do you refer too? Individual liberty and freedom, keeping more of what one works for, ability to take care of one's family and local community with out funneling through government bureaucracy?

Do you have a clue to what made this a great country and what is destroying it? You certaintly have the me me me me me me attitude down pat.

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Sprinklerfitter
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Sep. 1, 2011 6:49 am

Apparently I have no clue, please educate me. I am willing to learn.

Marlin60
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Apr. 9, 2012 4:04 am

Ask those of us who came over here from Europe in the 40's and 50's.

The United States was the place everyone wanted to go because here, in the democratic USA, you had a chance to earn wealth if you were smart, while the government here kept your life easy by keeping the infrastructure up-to-date, educating your kids, allowing you to have privacy, giving you truth in journalism, and protecting you from the empires that were constantly rising, conquering, falling, reorganizing, rising, tyranizing, falling, reorganizing...

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Karolina
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DRC, despite what Thom says on his show Libertarians are not Anarchists, Somalia is not a Libertarian utopia, Hong Kong closer.
that's not much of an endorsement for Libertarianism. Righties are dazzled by all the money that gets generated in Hong Kong, but don't seem to notice Hong Kong's very high wealth inequality. A few people get very very wealthy in Hong Kong. All that money is just for a small minority of its citizens.

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Art
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Karolina:

Ask those of us who came over here from Europe in the 40's and 50's.

The United States was the place everyone wanted to go because here, in the democratic USA, you had a chance to earn wealth if you were smart, while the government here kept your life easy by keeping the infrastructure up-to-date, educating your kids, allowing you to have privacy, giving you truth in journalism, and protecting you from the empires that were constantly rising, conquering, falling, reorganizing, rising, tyranizing, falling, reorganizing...

Excellent point Karolina. Selectively purging our memories of all the pre-Reagan revolution American fundamentals is what keeps us on this path of doom. Certainly, we can't reverse time but going back to many of those fundamentals will help get us back on a better path.

All this rhetoric about us careening towards "European Socialism" is a distraction from the fact that we are on the cusp of burgeoning fascism. Look no further than ObamaCare to illustrate this point. All these fools who use ObamaCare as exhibit "A" of our careening towards socialism are denying the fact that the insurance mandate of for-profit private insurance companies smells more like fascism than it does socialism.

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Laborisgood
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Marlin60:

Apparently I have no clue, please educate me. I am willing to learn.

Wow.....for as much as you've been posting lately I figured you were just another know it all GOPimpcon...I have no desire to try and educate you about anything and It's obvious you're not interested in learning anything anyway. If you have the desire to learn this is the right place and there are plenty of folks here that will help you learn about many issues that face us all. You along with several others seem to be more interested in trolling than learning. Besides it's about time for me to head back to the lake till I return home next monday.....I have a few more chores to take care of this morning and I will be on my way....I may stop back by here before I leave just to see if you have learned anything at all.....

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Sprinklerfitter
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Laborisgood wrote: All this rhetoric about us careening towards "European Socialism" is a distraction from the fact that we are on the cusp of burgeoning fascism. Look no further than ObamaCare to illustrate this point. All these fools who use ObamaCare as exhibit "A" of our careening towards socialism are denying the fact that the insurance mandate of for-profit private insurance companies smells more like fascism than it does socialism.

Karolina replies: You are "spot-on" there Labor. Unfortunately, since before WW1 the Europeans who were the ones in the power positions creating those rising & falling empires had already managed to slither into the US money systems and attached their parasitic suction-mouths onto the wealth here. IMO—fascism it is.

Laborisgood wrote: Selectively purging our memories of all the pre-Reagan revolution American fundamentals is what keeps us on this path of doom. Certainly, we can't reverse time but going back to many of those fundamentals will help get us back on a better path.

Karolina replies: That's my progressive ideology, because back in the 60's progress was where our path was leading us—and we knew where we were going.

At some point we were unknowingly sidetracked onto a path that is taking us somewhere that we never agreed to go. Done by the power-people who decided that they were in charge of our journey.

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Karolina
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Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm
Quote Laborisgood:All these fools who use ObamaCare as exhibit "A" of our careening towards socialism are denying the fact that the insurance mandate of for-profit private insurance companies smells more like fascism than it does socialism.

BTW, I think that it is so ironic that both Barack Obama and Mitt Rmoney have used the insurance mandate in health care plans, and are now running against each other. Just shows to go ya'.

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Karolina
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Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm

Nobody has yet explained how Government comes to own the means of production under either ObamaCare or Single-payer. "Socialist" is nothing more than a dog-whistle sounded by people who don't know what they're talking about.

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Art
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

We can look at Hong Kong if you wish. Half of the population lives in public housing. 90% of daily journeys are on public transportation. Before public housing, the poor (mostly immigrants) built their own houses in shanties. A fire in the 50s left 53,000 people suddenly homeless. I doubt we can blame all 53,000 of those people for the one big fire. So this nonsense of of 'I look after myself, you look after yourself' kind of falls apart in modern society.

Yes their taxes are low, and yet the government is able to provide all these services. How? The taxes are more directed. They get a lot of their tax revenue from land rent, or something akin to a land value tax. Under this system, the people and enterprises who most directly benefit from government investment pay the most in taxes. An example:

Suppose you own some land in HK worth $1 million and the HK gov't decides to build a new metro line with a station entrance across the street from your property. Now your land is worth a lot more, say $5 million. What did you do to earn that $4 million extra that your land is now worth? Nothing. So why should you get it? You shouldn't. The gov't investment is responsible for that increase in value, so now, what happens in HK is that your land tax goes up to match that increased value. Of course, you will be able to make more money now, because of that access to the transit system, so you will be able to pay the taxes. Everybody wins, but not too much. The increase of taxes near these stations should be enough to pay for the entire project, so other people's taxes that are not nearby do not go up.

This idea of benefit from government investment is why we have a system of marginal tax rates. It is not as precise to apply as a land value tax, but it has the similar effect of taxing more from the people who are receiving most of the benefits that come from prudent government investment. Both these forms of taxes were pushed by the Progressive movement of the 19th/20th century.

And this kind of taxation is opposed by both parties in this country. The Republican party uses these kinds of improvements from gov't investment to personally enrich their friends and donors. The so-called 'flat tax' is one way to sell this. It sounds fair. It is not. The Democratic party, on the hand, well, pretty much does the same. They simply use the right-wing extremism as a cover to do the same thing more incrementally. ObamaCare is a similar scam, bringing the private for-profit insurance industry a share of the tax revenue of the country directly. (This was Nixon's idea.) As has been stated above this is not socialism (ownership of the means of production by the workers), this is fascism (control of the gov't by and for corporate interests). Portraying Obama as a socialist is a distraction from this slight-of-hand. On the one hand it gets people frothy over the socialist in office; on the other hand, it gets people who should otherwise no better defending fascist policy from the frothy who see it as socialism. Yes, Democrats are actively cheerleading Richard Nixon's health care plan. See how that works? Divide, confuse and conquer.

And btw, the above example from HK is neither socialism nor fascism. It is a form of non-'free-market' capitalism, which is similar to state capitalism (like in China) or social market capitalism (like Europe, before Thatcher and the Euro). So if you are looking to HK, you are looking to Europe (before it got all messed up).

To get to Hitler and the Nazis, they worked hand in hand with big industry, (see IBM and the Holocaust, where IBM supplied the computers for the death camps). Hitler's first victims, before the Jews and the Gypsies and the homosexuals (who were targeted for propaganda purposes), were his chief political opponents, the Social Democrats, proponents of social market capitalism. After the defeat of the Nazis the Christian Democrats came to power and put in place the Social Democrats' platform, and Germany flourished.

So yes, by all means, look to Europe. But look to the more relevant 20th century, rather than the 15th.

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planetxan
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Cayman Islands?

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