obama care question.

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My sister inlaw post picture with solgan beware of obama.

I asked her why.

she responed by posting this

Under Obama care the life of the elderly, the mentally ill, and the chronically ill are devalued; the government decides who should have care or not, it will ration medical care and things as MRI's and other kinds of tests.

Howe do i respone to this?

Quester2000's picture
Quester2000
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

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Quote Quester2000:

My sister inlaw post picture with solgan beware of obama.

I asked her why.

she responed by posting this

Under Obama care the life of the elderly, the mentally ill, and the chronically ill are devalued; the government decides who should have care or not, it will ration medical care and things as MRI's and other kinds of tests.

Howe do i respone to this?

She is confusing Universial Healthcare with Obamacare. Rationing wont start until after obamacare implodes. As long as Gov Care has other people available to cost shift to we'll just slowly bleed to death. He needs the personal Mandate to kick the can down the road.

Capital's picture
Capital
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Under Obama care the life of the elderly, the mentally ill, and the chronically ill are devalued; the government decides who should have care or not
This is true of neither ObamaCare or Single Payer. Nobody has ever demonstrated why this would be true. Nobody has ever demonstrated where this is true of any other Universal Health Care system in the world. It is only true of our current private health care, just that it is the with the Insurance industry that "life of the elderly, the mentally ill, and the chronically ill are devalued; the Insurance Industry decides who should have care or not". This is easily demonstrated.

Art's picture
Art
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Art:
Under Obama care the life of the elderly, the mentally ill, and the chronically ill are devalued; the government decides who should have care or not
This is true of neither ObamaCare or Single Payer. Nobody has ever demonstrated why this would be true. Nobody has ever demonstrated where this is true of any other Universal Health Care system in the world. It is only true of our current private health care, just that it is the with the Insurance industry that "life of the elderly, the mentally ill, and the chronically ill are devalued; the Insurance Industry decides who should have care or not". This is easily demonstrated.

That took about 2 seconds.

NHS rationing leaving thousands of children suffering tonsillitis

Capital's picture
Capital
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Sep. 30, 2011 3:51 pm

Now Capital, please look at the statistics in this country for how many children have no health coverage and compare. Which is worse? In which country are more children per capita not getting necessary procedures like this?

ah2
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Quote ah2:

Now Capital, please look at the statistics in this country for how many children have no health coverage and compare. Which is worse? In which country are more children per capita not getting necessary procedures like this?

ALL children in this country have Health Insurance. Not sure I can find a statistic on how many parents neglect thier children.

Besides, Is having something and NOT getting it better than Never having it to begin with.

Capital's picture
Capital
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Sep. 30, 2011 3:51 pm
That took about 2 seconds.

NHS rationing leaving thousands of children suffering tonsillitis

Whoops! You got me on that one! The UK seems to have a problem with tonsils. That could be a problem with actual Socialized medicine, where the British Government actually does own the means of production.

Still doesn't change the fact that France and Italy have the best health care in the world while the current Insurance-driven American Health care system came in at # 37 in the latest comparison. UK is denying tonsils; American Insurance Companies are denying lots and lots of treatments. Somewhere around 20% of all claims.

Art's picture
Art
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Art:
That took about 2 seconds.

NHS rationing leaving thousands of children suffering tonsillitis

Whoops! You got me on that one! The UK seems to have a problem with tonsils. That could be a problem with actual Socialized medicine, where the British Government actually does own the means of production.

Still doesn't change the fact that France and Italy have the best health care in the world while the current Insurance-driven American Health care system came in at # 37 in the latest comparison. UK is denying tonsils; American Insurance Companies are denying lots and lots of treatments. Somewhere around 20% of all claims.

Feel free to Run "NHS Rationing" though Google if you need more than just tonsils.

Actually, Medicare has the highest Denial percentage a 6.85%. But Average claim denial is under 5%. With the lowest Private insurance Claim denial of 2.88%. But nice try none the less.

Capital's picture
Capital
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Sep. 30, 2011 3:51 pm
But Average claim denial is under 5%. With the lowest Private insurance Claim denial of 2.88%.
That's consistent with the AMA Report card for seven selected insurance companies, but doesn't jibe with figures fro a GAO report for companies in 6 states.
The available data from the six states in GAO's review and others indicated that the rates of coverage denials, including rates of denials of preauthorizations and claims, also varied significantly. The state data indicated that coverage denial rates varied significantly across states, with aggregate rates of claim denials ranging from 11 percent to 24 percent across the three states that collected such data. In addition, rates varied significantly across insurers, with data from one state indicating a range in claim denial rates from 6 percent to 40 percent across six large insurers operating in the state. There are several factors that may have contributed to the variation in rates across states and insurers, such as states varying in the types of denials they require insurers to report. The data also indicated that coverage denials occurred for a variety of reasons, frequently for billing errors, such as duplicate claims or missing information on the claim, and eligibility issues, such as services being provided before coverage was initiated, and less often for judgments about the appropriateness of a service.
Nice try though.

Art's picture
Art
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Half of all US bankruptcies are the result of medical bills. That hasn't happened to anyone in the UK, France, Germany or Switzerland since 1945.

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Phaedrus76
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Sep. 14, 2010 8:21 pm
Quote Art:

Nice try though.

You mean aside GAO cherry picking that show wildly wide ranges. You said 20%, which is the Application denial rate. Not Care denial rate you refered to and I responded to.

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Capital
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Sep. 30, 2011 3:51 pm
Quote Phaedrus76:

Half of all US bankruptcies are the result of medical bills. That hasn't happened to anyone in the UK, France, Germany or Switzerland since 1945.

Are you saying thier lives are not worth financial hardship. Probably becuase they have very strict bankrupcy laws, Where in the US we can do it over the internet. Not really a good apples to apples comparison.

I Did find this interesting.

Myth: People living in countries with universal health care do not go bankrupt paying for their medical treatment/

Fact: Not only do fewer people go bankrupt in the U.S. than critics claim, but people in other health care systems also incur high medical costs.

The claim that half of all American bankruptcies are associated with health care costs originates from a deeply-flawed 2005 study that artificially inflates the number of medically-linked bankruptcy through sloppy definitions and overly-broad categories.

In tax-funded systems like the U.K. and Canada, it is virtually impossible to declare medical bankruptcy. British and Canadian citizens do, however, incur large debts by seeking treatment out of the country or by paying for-life saving medications out of their own pockets. In both Canada and Europe, it is much more difficult and costly to declare bankruptcy than in the U.S. so fewer people are likely to do so. However, bankruptcy rates are rising.

In the Netherlands, many people struggle with health care costs. In 2007, 240,000 people failed to pay their premiums for at least half a year.9 Those who default on premiums lose coverage – but must be accepted by other insurers, creating a “merry-go-round” of debt.10

In Switzerland, the process of declaring bankruptcy is complex and often debts are restructured in lieu of bankruptcy.11 But bankruptcies are also going up, rising 8.2 percent in the first half of 2007 over the previous year. In 2006, 150,000 people lost health services because they had not fully paid their premiums. The cost of unpaid premiums is currently estimated between 300 and 400 million Swiss francs

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Capital
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Sep. 30, 2011 3:51 pm

Health care in the Netherland and Switzerland are simply highly regulated private insurance systems. They do not resemble Single Payer in any way. Unfortunately, they vaguely resemble ObamaCare. How they differor how they are related to bankrupcies is not completely clear from what I have read. There

Art's picture
Art
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
You mean aside GAO cherry picking that show wildly wide ranges.
Funny. That's what I thought of the AMA Report Card, Just looking at 7 insurance companies. Oh, and BTW, I would hope Medicare is denying claims. It won't be because of "pre-existing conditions". We hear about Medicare fraud running rampant with fraudulent claims. Wouldn't you want them to be denying fraudulent claims? As to the dramatic drop in premium cost shown by the Conservative AMA for Aetna in 2009, could that have anything to do with Obama's election? Then, there are those drops in claim denials for those 7 insurance companies in the last 4 years, I would attribute that largely to the ACA medical loss ratio provisions. ObamaCare is having some good effects. We'll see more of that now that those rebate checks for medical loss ratio violations are starting to go out.

Art's picture
Art
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Art:
You mean aside GAO cherry picking that show wildly wide ranges.
Funny. That's what I thought of the AMA Report Card, Just looking at 7 insurance companies.

You mean the 7 largest Companies with Medicare accounting for well over half the population. Ok..

Wouldn't you want them to be denying fraudulent claims?

you believe they are fraudulent.. I assume that goes for Private insurance as well.

ObamaCare is having some good effects

But on a Pro/Con Scale. any good effects will be outwieghted by the sheer volume of negitive effects.

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Capital
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Sep. 30, 2011 3:51 pm
with Medicare accounting for well over half the population . . . .you believe they are fraudulent.. I assume that goes for Private insurance as well
So, you say that Medicare accounts for more of the population than all the other insurance providers combined . . . . and you think it's remarkable that Medicare denies fraudulent claims at a higher rate than any one of those 7 Insurance companies?
You mean the 7 largest Companies
I counted 38 major American health Insurance companies. We get to hear about the 7 companies with the lowest denial rates? The GAO "cherry picked" 6 states. Some states with denial rates as high as 40%.

Art's picture
Art
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Art:

So, you say that Medicare accounts for more of the population than all the other insurance providers combined . . . . and you think it's remarkable that Medicare denies fraudulent claims at a higher rate than any one of those 7 Insurance companies

NO. I dont think that.

Medicare enrolls 47M

United Health 84M

Top 7 enroll 277 Million

#10 on the list 9.5M with a 1.47% market share. So do I really care what #37 does?

Capital's picture
Capital
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Sep. 30, 2011 3:51 pm
Quote Capital:

ALL children in this country have Health Insurance.

What are you referring to?

chilidog
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote chilidog:

What are you referring to?

I am referring to the whole host of Federal, State and local programs that cover uninsured children. Where thier only problem is getting lazy stupid parents to realize they have coverage. Or the PC term Awareness of the programs. Having it and using it are two different things.

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Capital
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