More over the top Union greed

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rigel1
rigel1's picture

Not all teachers are greedy, but these certainly are.

They demand a maximum of 190 day work year.

A maximum 7.5 hour day (including lunch).

$41 dollar/hr pay rate.

100% taxpayer funded, full family health care. (Is that what Obama care is giving you?)

I love this one. If the spouse of a teacher opts out of the health care package, the taxpayer is to send the spouse a check for $5000.

And how do they lobby for these demands? They recruit a bunch of students and tell them to picket for them. Another example of government greed gone wild. Read the demands. It's an eye opener.

http://www.dennisrichardson.org/lu050412.htm

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rigel1
rigel1's picture
My favorite is the little

My favorite is the little nit-wit holdng the "It's our education" sign. I guess the little nit-wit believes that a teacher cannot teach if he/ she has to work more than a 7 hrs/ day, earns less than $41 per hour or does not have 100% tax payer funded health care.

Children by definition are all nit wits. They don't pay taxes. They can't take care of themselves.That is why they are not allowed to buy alcohol, firearms, serve on juries or vote.They generally could not find their asses with both hands. And the union is using them as political tools to lobby for them.

How pathetic is that?

 

Bush_Wacker
Bush_Wacker's picture
Why is it that you find greed

Why is it that you find greed not only ok but paramount in the private sector but when it comes to anyone in a union it is evil?  It's ok for corporations to take advantage of the citizens needs through greedy pricing tactics while they become ever so rich but if it's a government program that takes advantage of it's citizens through greedy labor demands it is inherintly evil?

I think it comes down to your own greed.  You want to make every penny you can and screw anybody else that wants to make a living teaching our children.  Your selfish greed is what ultimately crashes nations.  It's your right to be greedy but don't call others that want as much as they can "pathetic".

rigel1
rigel1's picture
Bush_Wacker wrote: Why is it

Bush_Wacker wrote:

Why is it that you find greed not only ok but paramount in the private sector but when it comes to anyone in a union it is evil?  It's ok for corporations to take advantage of the citizens needs through greedy pricing tactics while they become ever so rich but if it's a government program that takes advantage of it's citizens through greedy labor demands it is inherintly evil?

I think it comes down to your own greed.  You want to make every penny you can and screw anybody else that wants to make a living teaching our children.  Your selfish greed is what ultimately crashes nations.  It's your right to be greedy but don't call others that want as much as they can "pathetic".

The private sector does not force me to give them anything. If I don't like a company, I can go elsewhere. Problem solved. They cannot force me to do anything.

Adults should NEVER hide behind children or use them to do their dirty work. That is abuse. They are kids for God's sake.

Why is it that you cannot see greed in the public sector? 

 You dissapoint me B_W. We have been able to conduct good natured discussions in the past without the need to unleash unprovoked character assasinations and insults. I'm not sure where your of the blue cheap shot came from. Sad to see it devolve to this.

P.S. My wife makes a living teaching children.

Bush_Wacker
Bush_Wacker's picture
rigel1 wrote: Bush_Wacker

rigel1 wrote:

Bush_Wacker wrote:

Why is it that you find greed not only ok but paramount in the private sector but when it comes to anyone in a union it is evil?  It's ok for corporations to take advantage of the citizens needs through greedy pricing tactics while they become ever so rich but if it's a government program that takes advantage of it's citizens through greedy labor demands it is inherintly evil?

I think it comes down to your own greed.  You want to make every penny you can and screw anybody else that wants to make a living teaching our children.  Your selfish greed is what ultimately crashes nations.  It's your right to be greedy but don't call others that want as much as they can "pathetic".

The private sector does not force me to give them anything. If I don't like a company, I can go elsewhere. Problem solved. They cannot force me to do anything.

Why is it that you cannot see greed in the public sector? 

 You dissapoint me B_W. We have been able to conduct good natured discussions in the past without the need to unleash unprovoked character assasinations and insults. I'm not sure where this out of the blue cheap shot came from. Sad to see it devolve to this.

I do see the greed in the public sector.  There will always be greed no matter what "sector" we want to characterize it as.  My point is that the only thing that you ever seem to complain about is public sector greed while championing private sector greed.  It is our own personal greed as taxpayers to not want to pay taxes.  I don't mind paying my taxes into the education system.  I don't mind paying my taxes into the military defense system.  I understand that it's more important for the country than the couple of thousand dollars a year that I would have in my pocket if I didn't have to pay taxes.  The bottom line is that it's greedy to not want to pay taxes.  Education is so important to a society that I can't believe that teachers can be so easily demonized for wanting a good compensation.  Doctor's are important to our health and they are very well compensated as I believe they should be but so are teachers.  Now if you want to complain about a dog catcher's bloated salary then that's a little different.  It's all about the money and that makes me angry.  It should be people and priorities first and money second.

Art
Art's picture
Quote:Not all teachers are

Quote:
Not all teachers are greedy, but these certainly are.
Well, here is the contract that the Teacher's Union is fighting for. On first blush, the Salaries they are asking for don't appear to even closely resemble the numbers that Republican Representative Dennis Richardson is telling us about.

I'm too lazy to study the document, but perhaps somebody else would care to do an analysis.

 

Dr. Econ
Dr. Econ's picture
Bush_Wacker wrote: Why is it

Bush_Wacker wrote:
Why is it that you find greed not only ok but paramount in the private sector but when it comes to anyone in a union it is evil? 

Rigel1 wrote:
The private sector does not force me to give them anything. If I don't like a company, I can go elsewhere. Problem solved. They cannot force me to do anything.

You go elsewhere? Really? I doubt it. Most markets are dominated by a few firms that have similiar profit rates, prices and qualitites. And of course you can go elsewhere. Please do. Move to Canada or something.

I think you meant to say you don't like the fact that due to the lack of competition in the government sector, there are some teachers that recieve too high a pay. Good for you. That is your job - weeding through the BS on all the right wing propaganda sites to find spurious examples of your point of view. I'm impressed.

Marlin60
Teacher unions are a big

Teacher unions are a big problem! Being someone who is very involved in with the public schools, I know the facts. 

Art
Art's picture
Quote:Teacher unions are a

Quote:
Teacher unions are a big problem!
Only for people who hate Unions. The Union I belonged to was a great benefit for the vast majority of us. It is only a few fringe-thinking, free-loading scabs who refuse to join.

Bush_Wacker
Bush_Wacker's picture
rigel1 wrote: Not all

rigel1 wrote:

Not all teachers are greedy, but these certainly are.

They demand a maximum of 190 day work year.

A maximum 7.5 hour day (including lunch).

$41 dollar/hr pay rate.

100% taxpayer funded, full family health care. (Is that what Obama care is giving you?)

I love this one. If the spouse of a teacher opts out of the health care package, the taxpayer is to send the spouse a check for $5000.

And how do they lobby for these demands? They recruit a bunch of students and tell them to picket for them. Another example of government greed gone wild. Read the demands. It's an eye opener.

http://www.dennisrichardson.org/lu050412.htm

If your wife is a teacher rigel then you know better than to claim that teachers only work 7.5 hours a day.  It's more like 10 to 12 hours a day and plenty of weekends.  That shoots the 190 day work year in the ass as well.  As far as lobbying goes, it's a part of a thing called collective bargaining.  "Bargaining" being the key word here.  They aren't "forcing" anyone to pay them anything.  If the state finds those terms over the top then they don't have to agree to them.  You are always talking about how important it is to have a choice.  Well the state is given a choice.  There's no gun to the head.

I like how when private companies bargain with local government it's always spoken of as "terms" and "conditions" but when it's anything public or union related it's spoken of as "demands".   For every dollar the government spends on important infrastructure such as public education or health care there is a hidden dollar of freebies in the form of tax breaks and grants given to private business that takes advantage of a community as opposed to helping it.  Where is the outrage and bold lettered posts about how walmart gets free land and waived taxes in order to add hundreds of minimum wage jobs to a communty?  The outrage is always targeted to public jobs and unions.

whiskeyman
whiskeyman's picture
 Your correct the states

 Your correct the states don't have to agree to the unions requests. that's why the state of wisconsin did away with most of the collective bargaining, which is the state saying no to the request.And holding a gun to there heads goes both ways, nobody is telling the public service unions rank and file  that they have to work for the state.they are free to go to another employer, if they find one that will pay them what they think they are worth.The bottom line in wisconsin is, the way of the past was unsustainable. So walker put in his reforms not only to balance this budget, but to keep future budgets from getting away from the taxpayers. Don't  misunderstand me I don't think that public service unions are overpaid, I do think that they can afford to pay for a portion of their bennies.

Bush_Wacker
Bush_Wacker's picture
I agree whiskey.  It's all

I agree whiskey.  It's all about bargaining and you get the best that you can bargain for.  You may not get the best teachers if the pay is too small but that doesn't mean you can't get great teachers as well.  That is why I like the idea of unions.  Unfortunately like any other group, the leadership can and is corrupted on different scales.  That is what I hate about unions.  You have to take the good with the bad or do without.  If the voters agree with Walker then who am I to complain.  If the state chases out good employees then so be it.  That is a part of the good with the bad as well.

As far as the ways of the past being unsustainable, that can be debated.  There are so many variables that people like you and I will never be privy to and that's why it's so hard to take politicians at their word when it comes to policy.

Art
Art's picture
Taking us back to the

Taking us back to the original document that got rigel so excited. Representative Dennis Richardson (R) gave us his summary of what the District is offering. More relevant would have been a summary of what the Teacher's Union is asking for. Richardson's link shows that the teachers are asking for salaries are much, much lower. How could this be? I'm assuming that the real bone of the negotiation is something else. Perhaps contributions to health care. 

I asked my wife, a retired teacher, and she said that the Union is making big efforts for benefits for classified employees, also. So, offering huge teacher's salaries doesn't help the Union reach it's goals. Explains why the teachers turned it down. 

Oh, and BTW, Richardson strongly implies how teachers are encouraging students to walk out and support the Union. According to my wife, teachers (at least, in her District) are forbidden from talking about politics in school or before 4:00 PM.

Richardson doesn't seem to have been very honest in his email, but then, he is a Republican.

 

Ulysses
Ulysses's picture
Bush_Wacker]</p> <p>[quote

Bush_Wacker]</p> <p>[quote wrote:
Why is it that you find greed not only ok but paramount in the private sector but when it comes to anyone in a union it is evil?

Because he's an anti-Union asshole.  He's always been a right-wing/Lib asshole per his posts here, which always sugarcoat right-wing economic talking points in "civil" language.  It's that simple.

 

 

CollegeConservative
CollegeConservative's picture
unions are a bigger cause of

unions are a bigger cause of shipping jobs overseas and rising cost then any corparations greed.  They  raise the cost of their labor so far over market price that it makes the employerr be able to higher less in the us and makes buisness cost more to do.  Its simple economics since we have ocha all unions do is boost there componsation way over market price.

Art
Art's picture
Quote:unions are a bigger

Quote:
unions are a bigger cause of shipping jobs overseas and rising cost then any corparations greed.
No they aren't. The primary cause of off-shoring jobs is the removal of tariffs.

CollegeConservative
CollegeConservative's picture
You cant argue with economics

You cant argue with economics unions and goverment acount for the biggest inreases in the cost of doing buisness in this country.

Art
Art's picture
Quote: Why is it that you

Quote:
 Why is it that you find greed not only ok but paramount in the private sector but when it comes to anyone in a union it is evil?
They will always say, "companies are in business to make money. They are not charities".  They say this as though they are making a profound point. The other side of this is, "Workers take these jobs in order to provide for their families. They don't take these jobs in order to become volunteer workers".

"Greed", if that is the proper word, is the reason why anybody enters any market, whether it is the securities market, the fish market or the labor market. What the righties don't understand is that workers own their own labors and have the right to negotiate the price of their labors in any way they see fit. That would be called "freedom in the marketplace". Business owners use Government and the politicians they own to put the workers in the weakest possible bargaining position. This is wrong and immoral.

 

 

drc2
College conservatives tend to

College conservatives tend to hang around people of like mind, and they have a lot of money being pumped into the campus clubs by the Righties.  If you want to be part of the problem, you can get well-paid for getting on the gravy train and believing the Right things.  You can indulge a certain form of rebellion by being a "young conservative" instead of being another hippie looking for a handout.  Or you can come up with another mythic stereotype to react against as you get paid to be self-righteous.  

You do have to avoid talking about religious idiocy or being for a sensible approach to guns.  It is now OK to oppose the war in Iraq and Obama's approach in Afghanistan, but it would have been virtual treason eight years ago.  It is always appropriate to use "economics" as a field for "debate" because it tends to confine the discussion to the accepted narrative and sophistry.  It is not OK to point out that conservative economics have failed spectacularly or to force a discussion of real democracy.

I almost forgot "the Constitution," now vying with the 'Bible for the most "proof-texted" and misinterpreted document of all.  After all, your corporate career does not depend upon knowing anything other than what you are supposed to believe to "succeed."  You know have a pseudo-intellectual defense of your selfishness and greed.  Live like a bankster if you can.

CollegeConservative
CollegeConservative's picture
They dont fail when they are

They dont fail when they are in the purest form they fail when they are interfered with through cronyism and government meddling.  It may have shortfalls but capitalism is the best economic system we have.Just because Im conservative doesn't mean im a rich heartless snob that you characterize me as .

Recovering cons...
Recovering conservative2's picture
  College Conservative, you

 

College Conservative, you need to wake up. Like I did and become another recovering conservative. Have you read "Wealth of Nations" the foundation of Capitalism? Adam Smith warns about the dangers of monopoly or oligopoly, Capitalism only works when there is competition on both sides buyers and sellers. We don't have that now. We have oligopolies in all parts of our economy some companies have been smart like ConAgra which own 30 different brand names, like in the freezer section and see how many packages are actually a ConAgra brand and realize there are only a few food companies, just like there are only a few oil companies, etc. This is exactly what Adam Smith warned against.

 

One of the things that seem to appeal to conservatives about Rush et al is that is that they have changed the 7 deadly sins to the 7 virtues; they justify greed, selfness, not caring about others, and taking as much as possible without reason or need. Where is the morality in charging people 30% on a loan when it costs the big banks 0.5% to borrow money from the fed?

 

Where is the morality when the CEO of health insurance company charges every client in the company $10 a piece for his salary, what is he doing to deserve that?

 

Capitalism may be a good system but like many of the utopian schemes it requires something that we don't have and that is perfect people. As long as greed not need is a driving force for people, we will never have a balance society that works for the masses.

 

You can find that truth in the New Testament where Christ made it clear that wealth on Earth does not lead to wealth in Heaven.

 

douglaslee
douglaslee's picture
eagle+point-or/cost-of-living

eagle+point-or/cost-of-living/ places it at 107% above norm. 40%  above national average for doctors, about 20% above for coifs [I used to go to local barber college, so I think this is ridiculus], 20% above for dental. Hourly rate is bullshit until you count the hours grading, lesson planning, pta meetings, individual student follow up, etc. etc. The calculate take home which is after  state local and federal tax. 

I used to get a statement from the company that put a dollar value on my benefits, then claim that is what I was paid, however 50% of the total was something I could not spend. If the company offers parking, they can claim that local costs of parking are 10 dollars an hour, so you just got paid 80 dollars a day and that added 45,000 dollars to your salary. 

Once again, health care as a commodity, costs 3 times the non-profit, same as utilities for profit costs 3 times the municipal owned.  There is no free market in either health care or utilties, just monopolies. To live as a consumer in monopolized America, one either joins a monopoly labor force [union] or moves, or learns the art of fraudulent business practices and cheats for a living like the rest. I bet he listens to talk radio, too.

city of eaglepoint.org seems like the residents are happy, until some disgruntled fox nut starts screaming.

rigel1
rigel1's picture
Bush_Wacker wrote: rigel1

Bush_Wacker wrote:

rigel1 wrote:

Bush_Wacker wrote:

Why is it that you find greed not only ok but paramount in the private sector but when it comes to anyone in a union it is evil?  It's ok for corporations to take advantage of the citizens needs through greedy pricing tactics while they become ever so rich but if it's a government program that takes advantage of it's citizens through greedy labor demands it is inherintly evil?

I think it comes down to your own greed.  You want to make every penny you can and screw anybody else that wants to make a living teaching our children.  Your selfish greed is what ultimately crashes nations.  It's your right to be greedy but don't call others that want as much as they can "pathetic".

The private sector does not force me to give them anything. If I don't like a company, I can go elsewhere. Problem solved. They cannot force me to do anything.

Why is it that you cannot see greed in the public sector? 

 You dissapoint me B_W. We have been able to conduct good natured discussions in the past without the need to unleash unprovoked character assasinations and insults. I'm not sure where this out of the blue cheap shot came from. Sad to see it devolve to this.

I do see the greed in the public sector.  There will always be greed no matter what "sector" we want to characterize it as.  My point is that the only thing that you ever seem to complain about is public sector greed while championing private sector greed. 

Here is the thing. There is plenty of demonization of private sector greed in this forum. Right? If I do not point out the greed and abuse of our tax dollars then who will? If people in this forum would stop making excuses for goverment corruption then maybe you would have a point. But sadly, The vast majority of people here don't care. They believe that govermnent can do no wrong. When you claim that I "champion" private sector greed, I will need you to list some examples or retract the statement. I don't judge people on their greed unless they come knocking on our doors claiming that we are not giving them enough. Even though what we are giving is much more than we can provide for our own families. The greed of Alec Baldwin does not bother me. It's his money. He demands nothing of me.

Bush_Wacker
Bush_Wacker's picture
Alec Baldwin doesn't demand

Alec Baldwin doesn't demand anything from you because he doesn't provide anything for you.  Teachers, police, and firemen provide something for you.  They provide services essential to all of us as a society.  I don't know your wife but I do know that she is an asset to my country.  Her giving of herself to help educate the up and coming generations is priceless.

rigel1
rigel1's picture
Bush_Wacker wrote: Alec

Bush_Wacker wrote:

Alec Baldwin doesn't demand anything from you because he doesn't provide anything for you.  Teachers, police, and firemen provide something for you.  They provide services essential to all of us as a society.  I don't know your wife but I do know that she is an asset to my country.  Her giving of herself to help educate the up and coming generations is priceless.

Good point. But they never seem to be satisfied. We give them sweetheart packages and the union only demands more. Gimme, gimme, gimme or we'll go on strike. Screw the kids. In a time where people are sacrificing, can't make morgage payments, healthcare costs skyrockting some teacher unions are still demanding more sacrifice from us. Sacrifice is for suckas. Not for unions. You have less yet they still demand more. They should quit complaining about how bad they have it. How about a little empathy for the common man? We ain't got nothin left to give.

My wife hasn't had a raise in three years. But she has a job so she is greatful.

Bush_Wacker
Bush_Wacker's picture
Remember though rigel, it is

Remember though rigel, it is union leadership that plays these games.  Teachers themselves seldom start making demands.  They are bound by union leadership to play along.  Every teacher that I know cringes at the thought of a stike and leaving their work and their students in limbo.  As usual with any such "group", the laborers (teachers and staff) are the pawns while the Kings and Queens dominate the board.

rigel1
rigel1's picture
Bush_Wacker wrote: Remember

Bush_Wacker wrote:

Remember though rigel, it is union leadership that plays these games.  Teachers themselves seldom start making demands.  They are bound by union leadership to play along.  Every teacher that I know cringes at the thought of a stike and leaving their work and their students in limbo.  As usual with any such "group", the laborers (teachers and staff) are the pawns while the Kings and Queens dominate the board.

Right on! Teaching like anything else has it's share of slackers and hangers on. But over all, they are great people.

douglaslee
douglaslee's picture
One choice would be for the

One choice would be for the district to grant the raise in exchange for the district's right to administer the raises in a meritorious  manner. Once in the contract, future contracts will include it and save money. Those on the low end may eventually retire.

rigel1
rigel1's picture
douglaslee wrote: One choice

douglaslee wrote:

One choice would be for the district to grant the raise in exchange for the district's right to administer the raises in a meritorious  manner. Once in the contract, future contracts will include it and save money. Those on the low end may eventually retire.

That might be a start. We must be careful with "merit" raises as well. Typically these things turn into popularity contests. Low profile, hard working contributers are often overlooked. The boasters tend to benifit the most. Admin can direct the best students to their favorite teachers. Office politics is hard to overcome.

Kerry
Kerry's picture
Hey, good point, rigel1.   At

Hey, good point, rigel1.   At least in the business that I am in, many people seen as being 'favorable' by the upper eschelons of corporate administrations are seen by the ones more directly related to actually enacting the service or production of the corporation as basically just being 'ass kissers'--and sometimes that is exactly what the upper eschelons of corporate administrations want--but, how does that really promote the production or service action of that corporation?  

It's almost like we aren't after a world of 'mutual respect' (or any related responsible behavior)--but one more conducive to figuring out 'whose ass to kiss and whose ass to kick'.....coming, of course, from someone who has had their ass kicked on many occasions (and hates to kiss ass on any occasion)....8^)......

Art
Art's picture
It's disturbing to see

It's disturbing to see lefties compromising with the Union-haters on these issues. There is plenty of compromise going on in contract negotiation. The people we pay to look after our interests do not need waffling and undermining from the workforce. It's an adversarial system. Always has been, always will be. Labor needs to press for a better piece of the pie right up to the point where company viability is at its limits. Management will always take every last penny that they can get from labor concessions. We don't need workers just giving it to them for no good reason. Labor needs to demand their share of those profits from an enterprise where they are doing the work and they are creating goods and services.

"Greed" is a buzzword. It is used to shame the other side. It doesn't work with me. 

Now, if the taxpayers are unhappy with the contracts that their school districts are making with the teachers, they need to fire the bosses and get new District officials. This is what the people of Wisconsin did. Maybe it will work out for them - in the short run. If you think your representatives are too generous. Blame yourself. You voted for them. But, don't expect that there will be no pushback. You will be taking food out of somebody's mouth. They get to have a say, too. 

Quote:
 We ain't got nothin left to give.
Bullshit. You cry and whine that Government services are too expensive while you bend over for your bosses and scream, "Uncle! Uncle! Pay me as little as you want! I don't need your money! I just want to be freeee!I want you to make as much money as you can off of my labor and pay me as little as you want! I'll fight with you against workers who want to make more! After all, I'm better tha they are". I have no sympathy. If you ain't got nothin left to give, blame yourself. You are too timid to stand up and take what is yours. You are lambs to the slaughter. 

Ulysses
Ulysses's picture
CollegeConservative

CollegeConservative wrote:

unions are a bigger cause of shipping jobs overseas and rising cost then any corparations greed.  They  raise the cost of their labor so far over market price that it makes the employerr be able to higher less in the us and makes buisness cost more to do.  Its simple economics since we have ocha all unions do is boost there componsation way over market price.

"College" conservative?  Where, Cow Tech?  It appears so, based on the construction of your prose.  Have you really reached college while still ignorant of the fact that the first words of all complete sentences should begin with capital letters?  "Employer" has one "r," not two, professor.  "...Makes the employer be able..." is awkward construction.  "U.S." rates capitals and periods so that it won't be confused with "us."  "It's" is a simple possessive, so there's an apostrophe in it.  And what's "ocha?"  The possessive "their" would be correct in your last sentence, rather than the "there" which you've used.  (Don't you even know the difference between "their" and "there?")  "Compensation" is spelled that way, not "componsation," as you've spelled it.  Does your word processor have a spell checker?

WHEW!  Boy, if you do go to college, you must go to Cow Tech, if you're able to write that illiterately and remain in school!  Heaven help the country when you illiterates eventually take over!  Maybe you can send each other the stock market reports in Morse, by pounding on hollow logs, since you certainly won't be able to do it accurately in print. 

The stuff you wrote consists of hackneyed Right-wing talking points with no factual or intellectual substance whatsoever.  So, you might actually be a sophomore business major at Cow Tech, because your assertions are certainly sophomoric.  (Business schools don't produce Renaissance people, which are what we need.  They produce bean counters who, after graduation, usually want to put profit/loss lenses on everything, whether warranted or not, even when weighing the values of genuine civilization vs. those of economic barbarism and sociocultural philistinism.) 

No sale.  Peddle it elsewhere. 

Ulysses
Ulysses's picture
Art wrote: It's disturbing to

Art wrote:

It's disturbing to see lefties compromising with the Union-haters on these issues. There is plenty of compromise going on in contract negotiation. The people we pay to look after our interests do not need waffling and undermining from the workforce. It's an adversarial system. Always has been, always will be. Labor needs to press for a better piece of the pie right up to the point where company viability is at its limits. Management will always take every last penny that they can get from labor concessions. We don't need workers just giving it to them for no good reason. Labor needs to demand their share of those profits from an enterprise where they are doing the work and they are creating goods and services.

"Greed" is a buzzword. It is used to shame the other side. It doesn't work with me. 

Now, if the taxpayers are unhappy with the contracts that their school districts are making with the teachers, they need to fire the bosses and get new District officials. This is what the people of Wisconsin did. Maybe it will work out for them - in the short run. If you think your representatives are too generous. Blame yourself. You voted for them. But, don't expect that there will be no pushback. You will be taking food out of somebody's mouth. They get to have a say, too. 

Quote:
 We ain't got nothin left to give.
Bullshit. You cry and whine that Government services are too expensive while you bend over for your bosses and scream, "Uncle! Uncle! Pay me as little as you want! I don't need your money! I just want to be freeee!I want you to make as much money as you can off of my labor and pay me as little as you want! I'll fight with you against workers who want to make more! After all, I'm better tha they are". I have no sympathy. If you ain't got nothin left to give, blame yourself. You are too timid to stand up and take what is yours. You are lambs to the slaughter. 

OutFUCKINGstanding!

Ulysses
Ulysses's picture
rigel1 wrote: Bush_Wacker

rigel1 wrote:

Bush_Wacker wrote:

Alec Baldwin doesn't demand anything from you because he doesn't provide anything for you.  Teachers, police, and firemen provide something for you.  They provide services essential to all of us as a society.  I don't know your wife but I do know that she is an asset to my country.  Her giving of herself to help educate the up and coming generations is priceless.

Good point. But they never seem to be satisfied. We give them sweetheart packages and the union only demands more. Gimme, gimme, gimme or we'll go on strike. Screw the kids. In a time where people are sacrificing, can't make morgage payments, healthcare costs skyrockting some teacher unions are still demanding more sacrifice from us. Sacrifice is for suckas. Not for unions. You have less yet they still demand more. They should quit complaining about how bad they have it. How about a little empathy for the common man? We ain't got nothin left to give.

My wife hasn't had a raise in three years. But she has a job so she is greatful.

Rhetoric textbook narrow appeals to sympathy and pseudo crocodile tears.  Are you going to keep the little dog, Checkers, too, no matter what "they" say about it?  I'll bet, too, that while your wife doesn't have a mink coat, she does have one or more respectable Republican cloth coats. 

Blow it out!

Ulysses
Ulysses's picture
douglaslee

douglaslee wrote:

eagle+point-or/cost-of-living/ places it at 107% above norm. 40%  above national average for doctors, about 20% above for coifs [I used to go to local barber college, so I think this is ridiculus], 20% above for dental. Hourly rate is bullshit until you count the hours grading, lesson planning, pta meetings, individual student follow up, etc. etc. The calculate take home which is after  state local and federal tax. 

I used to get a statement from the company that put a dollar value on my benefits, then claim that is what I was paid, however 50% of the total was something I could not spend. If the company offers parking, they can claim that local costs of parking are 10 dollars an hour, so you just got paid 80 dollars a day and that added 45,000 dollars to your salary. 

Once again, health care as a commodity, costs 3 times the non-profit, same as utilities for profit costs 3 times the municipal owned.  There is no free market in either health care or utilties, just monopolies. To live as a consumer in monopolized America, one either joins a monopoly labor force [union] or moves, or learns the art of fraudulent business practices and cheats for a living like the rest. I bet he listens to talk radio, too.

city of eaglepoint.org seems like the residents are happy, until some disgruntled fox nut starts screaming.

Bravo!

Dr. Econ
Dr. Econ's picture
CollegeConservative

CollegeConservative wrote:

unions are a bigger cause of shipping jobs overseas and rising cost then any corparations greed.  They  raise the cost of their labor so far over market price that it makes the employerr be able to higher less in the us and makes buisness cost more to do.  Its simple economics since we have ocha all unions do is boost there componsation way over market price.

Actually, union membership is at an all time low - there is a negative corrleation with union membership and shipping jobs overseas!

In terms of economics, it makes no sense for a union to demand such a high raise as to force the business to outsource.

douglaslee
douglaslee's picture
Unions don't demand the raise

Unions don't demand the raise to the point of lost jobs. One solution though was to demand  a certain percentage of the jobs lost be maintained on payroll in a work room whether their job was there or not. The point in the negotiations was to make the cost savings minimal at best. The work hall  members could be called out and were, but they had the right of refusal. Most all went when called to assist laying sand bags to shore the levy, and manning shuttle service and location assistance in other natural disasters. They also prepped their own workplace when it was at risk. The papers always had stories of employees playing checkers and getting paid, but that situation was entirely in the hands of the S.O.B. that treated their employees as disposables.

Art you made a good point about concessions, but the proposal I laid out was not a concession in real costs, but a face saving offer for the other side to pay the same amount in real dollars but be able to boast to peers that the 'average wage' was lower than other districts. That average could be mean, median, or mode. If there was no way to offer supplemental pay through bonuses or targeted goals, or lotteries, there are numerous ways to show the pay less, the same way they show the pay more than what it was. Offering an extra paid  holiday on their birthday is one way. Paid only if you're working. Every member has a birthday, so it's no favoritism, and it doesn't increase the hourly base rate, but it does increase the member's pay.

 

Kerry
Kerry's picture
Henry Ford started the

Henry Ford started the assembly line workers for the Model T at higher than the average wages.  That way, those that produced the product could afford the product--which is more in line with John Locke's idea that labor establishes private property and establishes value--not 'gold'--or its money-based abstractions....I suspect when the First Gilded Age Supreme Court granted 'personhood status' to corporations in contracts with each worker, the workers figured out that they needed to counter such a conglomerate with their own organizations (that, by the way, never got 'personhood status')--and the battles at that time between labor and corporate (and government) management were quite harsh judging by things like the Haymarket and Ludlow massacres....

In attempts to produce any product with the cheapest labor, many global corporations no longer follow Henry Ford's lead....

douglaslee
douglaslee's picture
The fact is they don't even

The fact is they don't even need local consumers. The entire lower and middle class is not needed as consumers or workers. The labor component in China and India don't make much, but they do make enough to buy what they make, and there is over a billion consumers in both China and India accounting for almost a third of  the world's  population. Americans can learn gardening and plumbing, and taking care of the kids of the Ayn Randers.

rigel1
rigel1's picture
Ulysses wrote: Art

Ulysses wrote:

Art wrote:

It's disturbing to see lefties compromising with the Union-haters on these issues. There is plenty of compromise going on in contract negotiation. The people we pay to look after our interests do not need waffling and undermining from the workforce. It's an adversarial system. Always has been, always will be. Labor needs to press for a better piece of the pie right up to the point where company viability is at its limits. Management will always take every last penny that they can get from labor concessions. We don't need workers just giving it to them for no good reason. Labor needs to demand their share of those profits from an enterprise where they are doing the work and they are creating goods and services.

"Greed" is a buzzword. It is used to shame the other side. It doesn't work with me. 

Now, if the taxpayers are unhappy with the contracts that their school districts are making with the teachers, they need to fire the bosses and get new District officials. This is what the people of Wisconsin did. Maybe it will work out for them - in the short run. If you think your representatives are too generous. Blame yourself. You voted for them. But, don't expect that there will be no pushback. You will be taking food out of somebody's mouth. They get to have a say, too. 

Quote:
 We ain't got nothin left to give.
Bullshit. You cry and whine that Government services are too expensive while you bend over for your bosses and scream, "Uncle! Uncle! Pay me as little as you want! I don't need your money! I just want to be freeee!I want you to make as much money as you can off of my labor and pay me as little as you want! I'll fight with you against workers who want to make more! After all, I'm better tha they are". I have no sympathy. If you ain't got nothin left to give, blame yourself. You are too timid to stand up and take what is yours. You are lambs to the slaughter. 

OutFUCKINGstanding!

Ya'll seem to be very, very angry. Was it something I said?

Art
Art's picture
Quote:Ya'll seem to be very,

Quote:
Ya'll seem to be very, very angry. Was it something I said?
It's everything you've said.

Kerry
Kerry's picture
douglaslee wrote:  The labor

douglaslee wrote:

 The labor component in China and India don't make much, but they do make enough to buy what they make....

Do they?   I thought such workers were making only dollars a day.   Can they buy those computers, those cars, and those TV's on such salaries, douglaslee? 

Kerry
Kerry's picture
And, I've even heard that

And, I've even heard that when the Chinese workers do in essence a strike for 'better wages and worker conditions', the Communist Chinese government puts them down under no uncertain terms.   Sound familiar to our own history, it appears.....

As such, there may be more similarities between corporatism and communism than previously appreciated...

With books in our own history, like Edward Bellamy's Looking Backward--2000 to 1887, recognizing even then that corporations operated more like military units than 'rights-endorsing institutions'....

workingman
workingman's picture
I would expect nothing less

I would expect nothing less than from the union they drive up the wages in order to drive uo the dues that are used to prop up the union leaders and to get more politicians to inorder to get them more power and more money to the union leaders.

rigel1
rigel1's picture
Art wrote: Quote:Ya'll seem

Art wrote:

Quote:
Ya'll seem to be very, very angry. Was it something I said?
It's everything you've said.

Really? People who don't think like you make you angry? Sorry to hear that. That's gotta be a tough way to live. I'll try to be more sensitive.

Ulysses
Ulysses's picture
In point of fact, since the

In point of fact, since the breakup of the Soviet Union, the only genuinely communist states remaining in the world are North Korea and Cuba.  Cuba is slowly liberalizing.  North Korea remains a communist dictatorship. 

China is now communist in name only.  It's not what people say, or what they call themselves, that defines them; it's what they do.  China wears a communist label, but it is, in fact, now corporate fascist; the old Chinese communist party has become the in-house corporation that runs everything and will not tolerate dissent or questioning.  Under communism, it is not possible for individuals to do business as they please and amass personal and corporate fortunes, yet this now happens all the time in "Communist" China.  China has also done very little to change Hong Kong and Hong Kong's business models since China took over Hong Kong from Great Britain.  Those models are undeniably capitalist, not communist.   

In today's China, multitudes are now free to open their own businesses and grow rich, individually.  Unlike Cuba, modern cars populate China's streets and as long as nobody questions the now-corporate fascist government about anything, the political police leave them alone.  If a genuine, old-line Communist were to raise dissent in China and point out that the modern Chinese government model has strayed far afield from true Marxism, that dissident would be squashed like a bug by the current communist-in-name-only Chinese government.

China now typifies the ultimate coalescence that must exist between government and big business if corporate fascism is to exist and thrive.

The Chinese government maintains the nominal framework of communist law so that it can selectively apply that law to anybody it may want to single out and punish for dissent or any other reason; it does NOT apply  nominally communist law to Chinese corporate business or to foreign corporate businesses doing business in China, including the non-Union sweatshops that make the lion's share of cheap consumer goods sold at places like Wal-Mart. 

So, Chinese corporate fascism, like communism, does not tolerate Unions, Union organizing, or demands for better wages and more workers' rights from its laborers.  It crushes all such movements, but it isn't communism which is, in fact, crushing them; it's Chinese corporate fascism, which is what American Libertarian Congressman Paul Ryan and others want to do here.  (In pointing that out, I'm not implying that communism would treat Unions and workers any better.) 

If the electorate unleashes Ryan and the assholes he's politically allied with this coming November, it will, indeed, get the government it deserves.  Voting GOP this fall will prove to be, for anybody not already rich, the figurative equivalent of bending over and shouting, "Thank you, sir!  May I have another?!" 

Kerry
Kerry's picture
Ulysses wrote: ....which is

Ulysses wrote:

....which is what American Libertarian Congressman Paul Ryan and others want to do here.

Paul Ryan is a libertarian now, Ulysses?   Or, is that characterization just your way of throwing anyone under the bus that doesn't follow your positions in lock-step to 'the cause'?  

Have the Communist Chinese started calling themselves 'corporatist fascists'?   I'm surprised that you didn't call them 'corporatist libertarians'.....

Are rigel1 and workingman libertarians, also? 

Bush_Wacker
Bush_Wacker's picture
workingman wrote:I would

workingman wrote:
I would expect nothing less than from the union they drive up the wages in order to drive uo the dues that are used to prop up the union leaders and to get more politicians to inorder to get them more power and more money to the union leaders.

Really?  You do realize that if you matched up union leaders against the corporate giants it would look like a pebble vs. Mt. Rushmore.  You actually believe that somehow unions can outbuy and outmuscle corporate earth?  Union leadership is the equivalent of serfdom to the plutocracy of corp, inc.  The only thing union leadership has control of and can manipulate is it's own members.  Government legislature is in the hands of the big boys now.

raoul
raoul's picture
Your anti union, anti labor

Your anti union, anti labor rhetoric makes me want to throw up. Obviously you are clueless regarding the direct relationship between unions and the middle class in this country. My wife too has not had a raise in years but would give anything to be part of a union because she, unlike you, lives in reality and not some mumbo jumbo theoretical world where your so called 'free markets' are gods. Economic reality during the past few decades has shown how stupid your comments really are. The insatiable greed of corporate America makes any union, no matter how abusive, look like saints.

Robindell
Robindell's picture
I am a union member and can

I am a union member and can just get by.  The company has supervisors who are unprofessional and sometimes act inappropirately.  The company violated the law and was sued for employment discrimination by the E.E.O.C. and settled.  Did the corporate executives and lawyers who instituted and maintained the policy that resulted in the lawsuit get fired for not doing the right thing and costing the firm money?  I don't think so.  Some of the supervisors still seem rather unfair and sometimes even possibly prejudicial at times to me.  At least I have a union rep who can investigate and support my employment if I am wrongly treated by the corporation.

workingman
workingman's picture
Bush_Wacker wrote: workingman

Bush_Wacker wrote:

workingman wrote:
I would expect nothing less than from the union they drive up the wages in order to drive uo the dues that are used to prop up the union leaders and to get more politicians to inorder to get them more power and more money to the union leaders.

Really?  You do realize that if you matched up union leaders against the corporate giants it would look like a pebble vs. Mt. Rushmore.  You actually believe that somehow unions can outbuy and outmuscle corporate earth?  Union leadership is the equivalent of serfdom to the plutocracy of corp, inc.  The only thing union leadership has control of and can manipulate is it's own members.  Government legislature is in the hands of the big boys now.

Is that why the union bosses are multillionaires. Do the rank and file union members have access to the private plans the nationsl leaders fly around in? How much of your dues actually go to contract negotiations and training? How much of your dues do you get back while being laid off? How much of your dues go to pay for political campaigns?

Why are some many people on the left so hell bent on bringing up the middle class? Coukd it be because socialism is about mediocrity no one can achieve more than the next guy.