Progressives and the nationa debt.

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I'm beginning to believe that some progressives may not be being completely honest with us. From where, sit it's looking as if they like the national debt. There is no sense of urgency to pay it down. Rather than use taxes to pay down the debt, I'm thinking that they want to use the debt as a tool to go after the rich. THEY NEED THE DEBT. Some may want the U.S. to collapse so that it can be rebuilt in a way where all economic outcomes are equal regardless of effort, education or contribution. Government will decide what is "fair" and how much you will be permitted to earn. The dream is that all outcomes will be the same regardless of our talents or education. I guess we would all live in identical government approved apartments or houses, take the same vacations, buy the same cars, eat the same food. There will be nothing to aspire to beyond what the government will permit you to have. The rulling class on the other hand will sacrifice nothing. They will continue to live like kings.

We know that the debt cannot be paid down by tax increases on a small protion of our population. That would not be enough, Not nearly enough. Yet the left is obsessed with these tax increases. Collective tunnel vision. There are people who have figured out how to earn a decent living and those who are not smart enough or willing to work hard enough are jealous. They want the government to institute fairness.

Democrats are pushing a "balanced approach" but where are the massive spending cuts that would be required to make any headway against the debt? What does Pelosi want to cut? The message seems to be give us our tax increase and we will cut spending later. Well we've been down that road before and the spending cuts never follow as promised. The D's & the R's let us down. If they can't agree on whether or not to cut the military then move on to something else. There has to be billions of dollars of waste that they can agree on. So go cut it. Why won't they do it? They need the debt. The debt is the tool to social and economic justice. The higher the better.

I cannot prove that the above is true, but I cannot see any other reason for the total disregard for the national debt.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

rigel1's picture
rigel1
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Jan. 31, 2011 6:49 am

Comments

The National Debt isn't what it seems. Most people don't understand it and that's why the politicians like to use it for their own purposes. You have to realize that our entire monetary system is a fiat system. That means that the Fed can print money out of thin air and then either lend it out to the private sector or to the government. When our government "borrows" money from the Fed it shows up as debt on a ledger but it's not really debt because they've essentially borrowed it from themselves.

The REAL National debt is about 8 trillion dollars. It's really a non issue but the Republicans will use it politically to panic Americans into thinking they're great grand kids are going to be straddled with all that debt. The Democrats will use it to try and get more tax dollars from the rich and the corporations and come off as political heroes. It's all just part of their game and we get stuck in the middle.

In reality the National debt is a measure of our National wealth. All that money that shows up as debt has been infused into the country's economy. It's actually what keeps our economy afloat. If we had no National debt then our economy would be much worse off because it. It's kind of complicated but in the end it's pretty simple. National debt makes it sound like we owe that money but it really means that we "own" that money. We are using it to keep things flowing. The problem is that too much of that debt is "owned" by the super rich because money always flows upward. Once they get their hands on it they tend to play with it instead of reinvesting it in the economy.

Bush_Wacker's picture
Bush_Wacker
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Jun. 25, 2011 6:53 am

Tax Freedom Day, 1980: April 29.

Tax Freedom Day, 2008, May 5.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxfreedomday/

chilidog
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote Bush_Wacker:

The National Debt isn't what it seems.

The REAL National debt is about 8 trillion dollars. It's really a non issue but the Republicans will use it politically to panic Americans into thinking they're great grand kids are going to be straddled with all that debt. The Democrats will use it to try and get more tax dollars from the rich and the corporations and come off as political heroes. It's all just part of their game and we get stuck in the middle.

If that is the case then why won't Pelosi, Reid and Obama tell us that the debt crisis is fake? It's all pretty sneaky. You can't get a straight answer from anyone in Washington. Which is the number one reason not to give these snakes any more authority over us then they already have.

rigel1's picture
rigel1
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Jan. 31, 2011 6:49 am

The national debt is not what people understand it to be. For currency issuing govts,

(Federal Deficits = Net Private Savings+ net imports), Both federal deficits and net exports add to private savings.

If all yearly deficits are added we get

cumulative deficits = cumulative savings, which means

total national debt of the govt = national wealth.

See data in
http://pshakkottai.wordpress.com/2012/02/27/national-debt-and-national-wealth-compared/
http://pshakkottai.wordpress.com/2012/02/26/misunderstood-deficits/

The govt has borrowed money from itself and given to the people. People collect interest. They DON'T have to pay any debt back. The govt is in debt to itself and has to do NOTHING.

The national debt everyone frets about is not real.

The best way of understanding is to see how the game monopolis works. In this game govt is the score keeper and the players are the private sector and money is the SCORE.

Playing Monopolis Monopoly: An inquiry into why we are making ourselves so miserable | | New Economic PerspectivesNew Economic Perspectives

at http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2012/05/playing-monopolis-monopoly-an...

The debt clock is a symbol of economic ignorance.

http://rodgermmitchell.wordpress.com/2011/07/25/the-debt-clock-a-symbol-...

Dollar Monopoly: Kickstarter Project

has nice diagrams of the money system of USA at http://dollarmonopoly.blogspot.com/p/kickstarter-project.html

pshakkottai's picture
pshakkottai
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Jul. 11, 2011 10:27 am
Quote pshakkottai:

The govt has borrowed money from itself and given to the people. People collect interest. They DON'T have to pay any debt back. The govt is in debt to itself and has to do NOTHING.

The national debt everyone frets about is not real.

The debt clock is a symbol of economic ignorance.

Great!!! Then there is no real reason to increase taxes on the rich or anyone else. Why do progressives claim that taxes are the answer? Are they ignorant as well?

Does Greece believe that it's debt crisises is real or are they just being sneaky? Why would they want to reduce government spending if they don't have to? Is this yet another reason not to trust government with more power?

rigel1's picture
rigel1
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Jan. 31, 2011 6:49 am

The plutocracy has bought all govt, most of the congress (democrats and republicans,tea party...)

pshakkottai's picture
pshakkottai
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Jul. 11, 2011 10:27 am

Greece has no control of its currency just like you, me, California and the crisis is real. In USA there is no crisis. If all too-big-to-fail banks are nationalized, the power of plutocracy will end. That will happen one of these days.

"Why do progressives claim that taxes are the answer? Are they ignorant as well?" Yes!

"Is this yet another reason not to trust government with more power?" No. Take it back. It is ours.Make it support the commons for the good of the private sector(which is almost all of the economy).

pshakkottai's picture
pshakkottai
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Jul. 11, 2011 10:27 am

I don't know either but would like Tom to stress his point on money circulation. One of the few ways government controls the flow of money is TAXES. If taxes don't eat into the money needed for living ie food, shelter and the other necessities they aren't too high and when the government gets money it goes back into circulation and thus we all get another chance at it. Balancing the budget is secondary to our whole system being stopped by lack of money flow. The only thing bad, in our country, with a high debt is the interest we pay. We don't get anymore return on that then all these wars we contunue to fight. We have to do whatever it takes to get money flowing to the point of inflation and let the Fed. slow that down with interest rates.

DEAN G ICKES's picture
DEAN G ICKES
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May. 21, 2010 1:05 pm

Rigel, I am with you on this one! The news that the debt is good and doesn't matter is FANTASTIC! That means that we can all stop paying taxes and not worry about how much all these wonderful programs the government has costs us, because the debt is a good thing, the more the better!

However if that is true, why are the libs still pounding the "Tax the rich" theme? That does not make any sense now does it?

mauiman58's picture
mauiman58
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Jan. 6, 2012 5:45 pm

It does not. Please read

http://rodgermmitchell.wordpress.com/2012/01/01/the-other-reason-federal...

for how much time is wasted in tax preparation. His suggestion is " How about this: Let’s begin to eliminate taxes, and stop taking trillions out of the economy. My suggestion is to increase the standard deduction by $10,000 every year. This gradually would simplify the process by each year making more people eligible for “post-card” returns."

See also http://rodgermmitchell.wordpress.com/2011/02/07/how-america-is-destroyed...

for your amusement.

pshakkottai's picture
pshakkottai
Joined:
Jul. 11, 2011 10:27 am
Quote mauiman58:

Rigel, I am with you on this one! The news that the debt is good and doesn't matter is FANTASTIC! That means that we can all stop paying taxes and not worry about how much all these wonderful programs the government has costs us, because the debt is a good thing, the more the better!

However if that is true, why are the libs still pounding the "Tax the rich" theme? That does not make any sense now does it?

It is a bit odd that the libs seem to have no problem with the media and the democratic party droning on about how we need a tax increase to balance the budget. Why do they sit back silently while their own people continue to lie about a debt crisis that does not exist? A little honesty might be nice.

rigel1's picture
rigel1
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Jan. 31, 2011 6:49 am

Once again rigel, you major in minors and ignore the source of the infection to see how it spreads and infects those who were not at the source of the illness. You have watched the "debt ceiling circus" led by Boehner and McConnel, so why do you insult the people who were political victims of this dishonesty? If you want real debt reduction, check out the People's Budget because Progressives are the only honest fiscal conservatives around at present. There are a few honest dissenters in the other camps, but there is only one economic proposal on the political deck that addresses the debt responsibly and that is from the Progressive Caucus of Congress.

There is productive and unproductive debt depending upon what the money was used for. War and corporate entitlements are waste compared to investments in the health, education and welfare of your fellow citizens and human beings. Subsidies to oil companies and the drug war and prison/industrial system are waste, while cheap risk capital for alternative energy allows success to be the factor of failures as has been the pattern for "hot capitalism." Lots of dry holes for the payoff gusher. Lots of false ore mines for the mother lode to be discovered. Even failures like Solyndra are better investments than failures like BP and Exxon Mobile.

Then there is the fundamental dishonesty or ignorance about how to prevent depressions and restore economies from the toxic effects of dogmatic and predatory capitalism. Here is where the cons get their "hate the rich" meme, and the basic spin is to take a system or game manager perspective as immoral and unfair. If you want to make "this system" work, questions of its larger problems and failures can be postponed a bit. If the point is to get people back to work and to get consumers spending and tax revenues restored, you have to avoid all the austerity nonsense that fires state employees and puts personally and family owned businesses at risk.

We have to exclude the "small bankster businesses" from this critically impacted "private sector," but notice that "jobs" are both public and private and that both are real when they make or do something of value. Having more investment banksters only increases the toxicity of the financial system upon which a real economy depends for a real service. Getting banking integrity back to Main Street is part of Progressive fiscal responsibility.

What is incredible is the continuing hypocrisy of the Right on their own role in the debt and in the deficit circus. Claiming that Obama increased the deficit because spending to fix what was bleeding was necessary is either extremely ignorant or extremely cynical. We need to spend more to put teachers and nurses back to work and to get others busy doing a lot of things that will help us very soon. We know that we need to get green and that we have to heal as a society as much or more than as "an economy." The private sector has shown no interest or ability to invest beyond the most immediate and narrow profit factors. It has not distinguished between "making money" and increasing value. No matter how conservative one may be about the ability of government to do things, the idea that an "unleashed" private sector is what we need is willful ignorance of recent experience.

All the evidence condemns the theory of "rewarding job creators" as if we needed the royalty rather than the reverse. Our Progressive offer continues to be that anyone can be as rich as humanly possible, it only requires caring for the system that has made you rich. Why anyone thinks being richer than is humanly possible is a good thing is another discussion. What honesty requires is the recognition that "the Left" has not proposed a true social levelling or any real approximation of "socialism," and that what has been condemned by the Right is only "democratic capitalism."

Honesty about the deficits is that they were caused by war and empire at the expense of the Middle Class and Main St. Repairing the damage and stopping the bleeding does require spending, and ought to be added to the bill of the war criminals and banksters. But, it is debt and will have to be worth it rather than just more toxicity. Again, I have yet to hear an honest economic word from the Right in the torrent of lies. Is it ignorance or cynicism? Does it matter much if it does not yield to reason or experience with reality?

If either rigel or mauiman have a shred of integrity, they cannot continue to pursue this trollish course. It is a radical rhetorical and propaganda tactic to pin the defict on the donkey, and being bold may be how it moves the focus away from the guilty to the innocent or co-dependent. I always hope our cons are honest and sincere, but then they go and pull stuff like this out of their butts and I begin to wonder if it is more respectful to believe that they believe this crap or to appreciate their persistence in the troll trade.

drc2
Joined:
Apr. 26, 2012 11:15 am

Debt is a problem, but you have to get the economy going first. Then you have more money to work with and you don't try and be the 1st country in history to use austerity to grow an economy. Plus a larger economy reduces the debt ratio. Short term-jobs and the economy. Long term-work on the debt. Doctors try and get a person as strong as possible before operating.

lovecraft
Joined:
May. 8, 2012 11:06 am

Debt is not a problem.

The govt has borrowed money from itself and given to the people. People collect interest. They DON'T have to pay any debt back. The govt is in debt to itself and has to do NOTHING.

The national debt everyone frets about is not real.

The best way of understanding is to see how the game monopolis works. In this game govt is the score keeper and the players are the private sector and money is the SCORE.

Playing Monopolis Monopoly: An inquiry into why we are making ourselves so miserable | | New Economic PerspectivesNew Economic Perspectives

pshakkottai's picture
pshakkottai
Joined:
Jul. 11, 2011 10:27 am

lovecraft, the problem is that your answer is so clear and obviously correct that understanding it is not the reason it is not adopted. It does not fit the ideology or go with the song they are singing. Don't bother them with the facts when the "truth" is so clear and convenient. Others must suffer no matter who caused the problem. The morality of debt gets turned on its head and debtor's prison starts to make sense while bankruptcy is only for those who can afford it. Moralism replaces economics, and the rich use it to serve their class interests.

Keep on showing the light to dogmatism, but don't expect a lot of conversions.

drc2
Joined:
Apr. 26, 2012 11:15 am

Currently Chatting

The other way we're subsidizing Walmart...

Most of us know how taxpayers subsidize Walmart's low wages with billions of dollars in Medicaid, food stamps, and other financial assistance for workers. But, did you know that we're also subsidizing the retail giant by paying the cost of their environmental destruction.

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