What the bible says about gay people.

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The disease that is Religion has been the #1 driving force for evil for as long as time has been recorded by man. The Christian religion proclaims the flaws in man depicting our sins and evils yet all of it's followers believe every word whole heartedly without taking into account that this book was written by man from so called accounts that are subject to our "imperfections"

History is written by the victors of war. Sorry but I think that I will stick to more convincing evidence than that.

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rock4justice
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Nov. 16, 2011 12:49 pm
Quote rock4justice:

The disease that is Religion has been the #1 driving force for evil for as long as time has been recorded by man. The Christian religion proclaims the flaws in man depicting our sins and evils yet all of it's followers believe every word whole heartedly without taking into account that this book was written by man from so called accounts that are subject to our "imperfections"

History is written by the victors of war. Sorry but I think that I will stick to more convincing evidence than that.

At the end of the talk someone from the audience
asked the Dalai Lama, "Why didn't you fight back against
the Chinese?" The Dalai Lama looked down, swung his feet
just a bit, then looked back up at us and said with a gentle smile, "Well, war is obsolete, you know " Then, after a few moments, his face grave, he said, "Of course the mind can rationalize fighting back...but the heart, the heart would never understand.
Then you would be divided in yourself, the heart and the mind, and the war would be inside you."

When the mind is divided there is no peace,

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bamboo
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Kerry — I love the Gnostics! There are interesting books about them, the Dead Sea Scrolls et al! I think of the early Gnostics as the most truth seeking of Christians.

I am sure Gnostics had no interest in anyone else's sex life, or whether or not someone was nailing someone and how and who. I don't think a "gay" was even thought of as being in any way different from the "straights". Because it doesn't matter.

Rock — There are interesting books about the early Christian Gnostics. I think of the early Gnostics as the most truth seeking of Christians.

Bamboo — Amen!

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Karolina
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Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm

I think the feminine 'her' was descriptive of wisdom. Traits or characteristics are often refered to in the feminine. Justice, a concept is feminine, so are ships which are physical. In Swedish when you seek the time, the answer is either 'the clock is 6' or 'she is 6', so is the physical watch feminine or time itself? Metaphysical can be whatever you want, male, female, or beast.

Victims of a lightning strike said "It was like God was snapping a picture before he killed us".

Mother earth, mother nature, but father land.

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douglaslee
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

absolutely

NOTHING!

Just as there are no sane conversation about _________ (the "a" word) - no sane conversation is possible around "the bible".

I learned about this 6 months ago when I went to "christian church" with a sister & her spouse. First the congregation was blasted with 10 rockers and their version of rock christian music - I needed earplugs for the outrageous volume.Next the guy got up and performed his story around the "bible" story of the day. He said this story provided "convincing" proof the bible and its biblical stories were "true". I quote exactly here - "Convincing Proof - christians don't need "proof" they just need "convincing proof". I dropped my earplugs in shock at this simpleminded superstitious mind set. In that moment much became clear to me - we are in deep trouble.

Quote bamboo:

Would someone here please explain to me WHAT THE F*#K A RELIGIOUS BOOK or JESUS HAS TO DO WITH DECIDING THE LAWS OF THE UNITED STATES?

Absolutely troublesome this is.

media_muse
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Dec. 10, 2011 3:09 pm
Quote rock4justice:

History is written by the victors of war. Sorry but I think that I will stick to more convincing evidence than that.

And, what evidence do you have now that 'convinces' you more, rock4justice? George Santayana once said: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it".

As far as religious perspective go, I, for one, think that all this talk about a 'new paradigm' is really just an 'old paradigm' revisited--the application of political authority through the tenets of Original Sin--and not the American counterpart of 'innocent until proven guilty'....it may take a bit to explain that (and, I have done so before here) so I won't bore you with my musings unless you address it....needless to say, if we aren't attentive and careful, history will come back and bite us in the ass....

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Kerry
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Karolina:

Kerry — I love the Gnostics! There are interesting books about them, the Dead Sea Scrolls et al! I think of the early Gnostics as the most truth seeking of Christians.

Then an author that you may be interested in if you don't know her already is Elaine Pagels. As I understand it, she was one of the original translators of the Nag Hammadi Library which, as you may know, was writings of a Gnostic monastery placed in clay jars and hidden in a cave (as their monastery was forced to disband--this happened in the 4th century C.E. when the Roman authority had turned to orthodox Catholicism and had begun burning un-orthodox texts along with their heretical believers) near the present Egyptian town of Nag Hammadi. They were discovered by a wondering nomad in 1945--I even think the year is pertinent as being the end of World War II and as our last war to have been declared and won in the traditional (and constitutional) fashion--indeed, especially with our nuclear options today, wars in that manner are obsolete....

A book by Elaine Pagels titled The Gnostic Gospels that I just happened to find in my many past wanderings in book stores is what got me started on my interest in Christian history. I've also read her book, Adam and Eve and the Serpent--an interesting rendition of a Gnostic version of that story that claimed that the serpent was not, as Paul in the Epistles put it, 'Satan' against God's plan (although Pagels points out that the Old Testament actually never claims what the serpent was there for), but was there in support of God's purpose as part of God's plan (some Gnostic's even go so far as to claim that the Old Testament God, the Demiurge, and the New Testament God, the feminine Sophia, or Greek for 'wisdom', are not the same God--but, I am not in support of 'separating out God' because it has a tendency to 'socialize God')--at any rate, the serpent represented wisdom in many ancient cultures--such as being the Greek god of medicine's, Asclepius', staff. One site by Elaine Pagels on Adam and Eve and the Serpent I found here:

http://southerncrossreview.org/14/pagels.htm

I've also read Pagels' book, Satan, and how the counterpart to God evolved with history to be a spiritual counterpart to God instead of a form of endorsement to God (for instance, Satan was talking to God in the book of Job--claiming, like Job, all of God's faithful followers can do so when they are given everything in life--take it away and Job will curse you to your face--which God did as Satan's test offered--not Satan--but, Job ended up cursing his own life instead of God, directly). I like the NIV version's translation of the work 'Satan'--which can mean 'adversary' or 'accuser'--giving a numinous, or spiritual, basis for the act of 'accusations'......with, Stephen Mitchell, the Jewish-born-turned-Buddhist author that I mentioned earlier, claiming that the term 'sin' was to mean 'missing the mark' and 'forgiveness' to mean 'try again'--with that always possible if awareness were gained (if ignorance is the ultimate sin, awareness is the ultimate blessing).

At any rate, glad to note your interest, Karolina. It sent me on a quest on religious studies that have fascinated me to no end....'orthodoxy' vs. 'heresy' and all.....right in line with my own ideas of the political maneuvers of early American history with the political tenets of 'Original Sin' vs. 'innocent until proven guilty'....and right up to what we are facing today.....

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Kerry
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Kerry wrote: Stephen Mitchell, the Jewish-born-turned-Buddhist author that I mentioned earlier, claiming that the term 'sin' was to mean 'missing the mark' and 'forgiveness' to mean 'try again'--with that always possible if awareness were gained (if ignorance is the ultimate sin, awareness is the ultimate blessing).

poly replies: Sometimes the greatest revealed Christian truths come from non-Christians.

Retired monk - "Ideology is a disease"

polycarp2
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ “and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh?’” (Matt. 19:4.)

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CollegeConservative
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May. 4, 2012 2:22 pm

Kerry, my biggest passion is following an "ever-increasing awareness of truth" which, I guess, is ultimately my "religion." I have found that it often comes with "coincidences" (i.e. "synchronisities"), and I am looking at one of those coincidences on my desk right now. This morning I pulled off of my shelf a book that I haven't looked at in years—"Beyond Belief; The Secret Gospel of Thomas" by Elaine Pagels—and put it here, next to my computer.

A bit later I noticed that there was a message on a thread in the Prayer Messages forum. In a post there, Poly had quoted from the gospel, and included a great link of Sacred Christian Texts, opened to the Gospel of Thomas.

And now—I sat down just to see what scary stuff is going on at Thom's web site, but the first post I read is your enthusiasm about the Gnostics, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and Elaine Pagel's books! And below your post, even Poly noted the amazing quote from Stephen Mitchell that you presented "if ignorance is the ultimate sin, awareness is the ultimate blessing".

When things like that happen, some people might think that even noticing them is silly. Personally, I see this kind of "synchronisity" as a hint that on some level—we are on the right path and everything is just fine!

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Karolina
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Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm
Quote CollegeConservative:

Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ “and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh?’” (Matt. 19:4.)

poly replies: A great explanation of basic biology and social arrangements for heterosexuals.There is another that covers everyone.

Have, have you not read, "God is love. He who dwells in love dwells in God and God in him". 1 John 4:16. That covers everyone. It's the whole foundation of Christianity..Attack love wherever it is found, and it's a direct attack on God...Love.

Christians should probably stop attacking God, and let Him (Love) dwell where He will.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

polycarp2
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Karolina:

This morning I pulled off of my shelf a book that I haven't looked at in years—"Beyond Belief; The Secret Gospel of Thomas" by Elaine Pagels—and put it here, next to my computer.

I'm not sure if the 'Secret Gospel of Thomas' is the same as the 'Gospel of Thomas', but one of the passages in the Gospel of Thomas I have considered as being one of the more profound statements I have ever read--especially if you take into account a 'homosexual' perspective (which I had been taught in psychiatry class was not a separate impulse but, just like its heterosexual counterpart, was something that we all, each of us, had to one degree or another and, just like its heterosexual counterpart, was repressed and projected, and expressed and accepted, in different ways with different people--some asexually and some sexually--Freud went so far as to say that 'homosexual ties' were the ones that offered social coherence and it was the 'heterosexual ties' that created social competition--much in line with nature's promotion of the competion for the alpha male and female to best 'propagate the species').

The passage in the Gospel of Thomas that I am speaking of is verse 22 from the Nag Hammadi Library. As I understand it, many of the heretical Christian texts had been passed down through a sort of underworld throughout the ages and this was one of them (maybe even something Jefferson would have referred to as the 'Pseudo-evangelists')--I had actually first read it before I knew of the Nag Hammadi Library as a foreword to the radical psychiatrist R.D. Laing's book, Politics of Experience. Even with my own concepts of 'individual rights', verse 22 seems to ring true in a political perspective to me with the modern idea of 'individual rights' being more intent in including both sexes with the concept of 'the individual'--and that individual's 'rights'--holding a more androgynous sense to it that some Gnostics even claimed 'God' to be (not 'asexual'--but more like the embodiment of all that is 'both sexes'). At any rate, as I've quoted here many times before, verse 22 of the Gospel of Thomas, the Nag Hammadi Library:

Jesus saw infants being suckled. He said to his disciples, "These infants being suckled are like those who enter the kingdom."

They said to him, "Shall we then, as children, enter the kingdom?"

Jesus said to them, "When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female; and when you fashion eyes in place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then you will enter [the kingdom]."

I know polycarp has seen me quote this before--and, as I recall, does relate it some Buddhist teachings. I do think that the ultimate source of all religious endeavors of any type has a common root--the confirmation, and awareness, of our spiritual being. As Paul Tillich said 'God' was 'the ground of all being'...

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Kerry
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Jefferson certainly seemed to be a heretic in his own day. Here's another interesting comment of Jefferson coming from Stephen Mitchell's book:

The truth is that the greatest enemies to the doctrines of Jesus are those calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them for the structure of a system of fantasy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human error.

Sadly enough, it appears that perhaps Jefferson was a little too optimistic....

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Kerry
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

I question those who label people

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EdBourgeois
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May. 14, 2010 12:24 pm

Those who successfully proclaim a heresey tend to be those with the power to make the proclamation stick.

The Eastern Orthodox proclaim all other Christians to be heretics. Outside of their own churches, they don't have the power to make the charge of "heretic" stick.

What's so doesn't give a hoot if its proclaimed a heresey...or not. What's so is what's so...whether in politics, economics or religion. Personally, I'd proclaim most Christians heretics including most in my own church. I'm sure the proclamation would be amply returned. . LOL

I've found that a life based on what's so, and seeking what's so is a lot more satisfying than one that operates entirely out of beilefs in what isn't.

That takes a lot of weeding within ones own mind.The Buddhist teaching on the "suchness" of things is a great help in that regard.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

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polycarp2
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

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Why the Web of Life is Dying...

Could you survive with just half of your organs? Think about it. What if you had just half your brain, one kidney, half of your heart, one lung, half a liver and only half of your skin? It would be pretty hard to survive right? Sure, you could survive losing just one kidney or half of your liver, but at some point, losing pieces from all of your organs would be too much and you would die.