An Amazing Piece of Propaganda by AP on the Barrett-Walker Race

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Quote liberalsyndrome:

I think the correlation is that states that put the burden onto tax payers to bailout their hollow promises to public sector unions result in tax rates higher than 5%. In states where unions have controls, the rate tends to track below 5% and union membership is typically less than 10% of the workforce. Looking at Bureau of Labor stats on a couple websites, the states that meet those two thresholds all seem to have unemployment rates that are on average 2 pts below the national average.

That's because in the RTW (For less) states, workers are probably capitalizing on prosperity unleashed by anti-union laws, and are busy building promising careers in Fast Food and Retail....LOL!...

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al3
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

If you actually click on the link I posted it give data on... http://www.workerfreedom.org/labor-statistics

The data is from Bureau of Labor Statistics and from 2010

personal income tax rate

corporate tax rate

average hourly wage

unemployment rate

and % of workforce unionized

The dollar per hower is not that much less and in some cases its even HIGHER than heavily unionized states!

Based on your comment, if you were presented with two choices...

- one where the state has 8-12% unemployment at $24/hour

- one where the state has 5-6% unemployment at $22/hour

You would rather have more misery and unemployed and welfare to support what is basically a $2 difference???? I am not sure how that makes sense? If you have 2 point better employment number and people pay taxes doesnt that go to support the commons and less well off? You want to starve the commons so the unions hacks can get their cut?

I know its quick witted and easy to jump to burger flipping, but this is INDUSTRY. Look where all the car plants are building (NOT in union states). Look where Boeing just opened plant (SC is right to work).

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liberalsyndrome
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ah2, "Wow this is just completely upside down when you actually know the facts. The two most solvent economies in Europe are Sweden and Germany. "

I don't think I said anything about Sweden or Germany. Are you denying what is happening in Greece, Potugal, etc?

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camaroman
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Dr Econ,"But the reason this happened was that conservatives pushed for deregulation of banking and laws against monopoly, as well as lowering tarriffs. Thus, banks became 'too big to fail' and I believe needed to be bailed out."

"An agreement between the Clinton administration and congressional Republicans, reached during all-night negotiations which concluded in the early hours of October 22, sets the stage for passage of the most sweeping banking deregulation bill in American history, lifting virtually all restraints on the operation of the giant monopolies which dominate the financial system."

http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/nov1999/bank-n01.shtml

Bill Clinton (Sept. 24): Indeed, one of the things that has helped stabilize the current situation as much as it has is the purchase of Merrill Lynch by Bank of America, which was much smoother than it would have been if I hadn’t signed that bill. …You know, Phil Gramm and I disagreed on a lot of things, but he can’t possibly be wrong about everything. On the Glass-Steagall thing, like I said, if you could demonstrate to me that it was a mistake, I’d be glad to look at the evidence. But I can’t blame [the Republicans]. This wasn’t something they forced me into.

http://factcheck.org/2008/10/who-caused-the-economic-crisis/

Oh really? I don't think you know what you are talking about. Just like all leftys, blame the repbubs. Both are to blame. As is the case most of the time. For those here that continue to buy into the left/right paradigm, will never see the big picture.

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camaroman
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Quote liberalsyndrome:

If you actually click on the link I posted it give data on... http://www.workerfreedom.org/labor-statistics

I did review that site. But I won't trust any website that's a front for Grover Nordquist's ATR group. Nordquist and his oligarchs are concerned with increasing corporate and billionaire power under the cloak of "worker freedom", and while I won't argue many unions overstepped their bounds, I'm in the camp that unions are a necessary evil to balance out the power of the profit-masters who wish to run this country for the very narrow benefit of corporate shareholders. We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

You would rather have more misery and unemployed and welfare to support what is basically a $2 difference???? I am not sure how that makes sense? If you have 2 point better employment number and people pay taxes doesnt that go to support the commons and less well off? You want to starve the commons so the unions hacks can get their cut?

Then why do all the RTWFL states, with all their "worker freedom" like SC, AL, GA, MS, KY, TX have so much poverty? And such poor educational outcomes by those non union teachers? It's well known red states are amoung the leaders in entitlement expenditures. You may call these outliers, but most of the other red states are ag states with a populaton of 2, I'd say those are the outliers - I would't point to, say, Idaho or Utah as a legit laboratory to point to RTWFL successes. I'd point to the most populous......like SC, AL, GA, MS, KY, TX...where the factories are moving.

I know its quick witted and easy to jump to burger flipping, but this is INDUSTRY. Look where all the car plants are building (NOT in union states). Look where Boeing just opened plant (SC is right to work).

Sorry couldn't resist. Just because all the plants are opening in RTWFL states doesn't mean anything except corporate execs, bankers, and shareholders can make more money there, and exert more power there in their efforts to return us to the extraction economy of the plutocratic early 1900's.

We can agree that unions have overstepped their bounds. I've fought with unions in my job in the past. But I've also fought with Execs. Thre is a middle ground, but I don't believe crushing labor unions will bode well for the future of the middle class. Agree to disagree.

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al3
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Dr Econ, "It was the banks that issued much of the currency in the first place. The FED reduced the power of the big banks by at least putting it's chairmen who is appointed by the President."

Thomas Jefferson was concise in his early warning to the American nation, "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

The high office of the President has been used to foment a plot to destroy the American's freedom and before I leave office, I must inform the citizens of this plight.” —President John Fitzgerald Kennedy - In a speech made to Columbia University on Nov. 12, 1963, ten days before his assassination!

The federal reserve is the biggest scam in American history.

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camaroman
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May. 9, 2012 11:30 am

You kind of helped make my point but not sure you realized it. This is not a red state/blue state issue for me. Its a good state/bab state when it comes to employment. In my earlier email I said two factors seems to greatly reduce unemployment...

- Unionization below 10% of workforce

- Taxes below 5% (corporate & personal)

Each of the six states you named violate one of those two rules I mentione above. They either have higher union rates or more likely have high taxes. That is exactly why they have higher unemployment.

SC – 7% tax rate

AL- above 10% unionization, 6.5% corporate tax rate = high unemployment

GA – 6% tax rate (however low unionization)

MS – 5% tax rate and unionization about 6%

KY – 6% tax rate and just about 10% unionization

TX – Same unemployment rate as national average. I think their rate is complicated based on wheter illegals are counted or not. If you take out non-resident the rate would drop

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liberalsyndrome
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Quote liberalsyndrome:

I see that there is a relationship. If the 10% union membership is largely focused in public service unions (i.e. working for the state) its likely that one or more of the political parties bought their vote with sweet deals like $0 co-pay medical or the ability to max out over time in last 3 years and get 75% of base pay (overtime included) for the rest of your life when you retire at 55!

The politicians dont care because when the bill comes due they will be out of office. So for 2-3 cycles the debt bomb continues to tick until it explodes and the current political leaders have a choice... Cut benefits & break promises or raise taxes.

Ok, but that is public unions, not private unions. I thought you were saying that unions raise wages and create unemployment - the right wing fantasy talking point.

So now you are saying public unions create high taxes? But the data does not show public unionization. Plus, the more government services, the more unionization and hence the higher taxes should be - even if people wanted all these services.

Also, Walker cut taxes and created a deficit so he could welsh on bennefits.

I think the correlation is that states that put the burden onto tax payers to bailout their hollow promises to public sector unions result in tax rates higher than 5%. In states where unions have controls, the rate tends to track below 5% and union membership is typically less than 10% of the workforce. Looking at Bureau of Labor stats on a couple websites, the states that meet those two thresholds all seem to have unemployment rates that are on average 2 pts below the national average.

Let me beat you to the punch line, there is probably one or two states that for other reasons are outside of the bell curve, Mississippi comes to mind, but the vast majority of the 50 states seem to fit within the stats I quoted.

[/quote]

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Dr. Econ
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I am not into left right rhetoric but have to question if Walker "created" deficiet which seemed to be growing for over a decade. Last time I looked Wisconsin had moved from $3Billion short fall to $150Million surplus. If taxes were cut and unions largely were left whole (minus the union members that chose to NO longer write checks to AFSCME), then I would call that a success.

Based on what I see as the goal to keep state taxes below 5% Wisconsin is on the right track. Relatively speaking Wisconsin has a pretty high corporate tax rate 7.9%. The personal rate of 6.5% and the current property taxes are very high too. My uncle is selling his house on Lake Wisconsin because they keep jacking up property tax rates.

From what I have read (absent of union talking points) a large portion of the people that had summer homes in the Dells, Lake Delton, and Lake Wisconsin area are selling and fleeing the state. That = lost tax revenue to state

Business in state were also talking of leaving Wisconsin and they are now staying. If they leave that = lost tax revenue to state.

Combine that with an impending debt bomb from unfunded union pensions and health care liability and the tax payers of Wisconsin were going to get hammered.

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liberalsyndrome
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Quote liberalsyndrome:

You kind of helped make my point but not sure you realized it. This is not a red state/blue state issue for me. Its a good state/bab state when it comes to employment. In my earlier email I said two factors seems to greatly reduce unemployment...

- Unionization below 10% of workforce

- Taxes below 5% (corporate & personal)

Each of the six states you named violate one of those two rules I mentione above. They either have higher union rates or more likely have high taxes. That is exactly why they have higher unemployment.

SC – 7% tax rate

AL- above 10% unionization, 6.5% corporate tax rate = high unemployment

GA – 6% tax rate (however low unionization)

MS – 5% tax rate and unionization about 6%

KY – 6% tax rate and just about 10% unionization

TX – Same unemployment rate as national average. I think their rate is complicated based on wheter illegals are counted or not. If you take out non-resident the rate would drop

A quick look at Nordquist's site and there are only 7 states that meet your criteria of under 10% unionization and under 5% personal and 5% corporate income taxes. First of all, I think most of them are outliers. 4 of the states have more tumbleweeds than people, WY, UT, SD, and KS. I live in a county that has 10x the population of Wyoming. Wyoming simply doesn't count when trying to compare state economic policies vs another, unless another tumbleweed state. These indeed have lower than average unemployment, but nobody lives there. SD (oil/gas), TX (oil/petrochem) and FL (tourism) have other sources of of income that distort their micro-economies, and TX and FL have same or higher unemployment. CO may be the only state of of these that resemble a typical state that I'd measure policies vs. another state. And CO does have lower unemployment than national average, 7.9% vs 8.2, OK I'll give you that one.

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al3
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Lsyndrome, "TX – Same unemployment rate as national average. I think their rate is complicated based on wheter illegals are counted or not. If you take out non-resident the rate would drop."

Not so!!! 6.2%, and Texas calculates the unemployment rate the same, using only those actively seeking work.

Here’s what a good long run of small-government, low-tax conservatism has achieved in Texas: Once a largely agricultural state, Texas today is home to 6 of the 25 largest cities in the country, more than any other state. Texas has a trillion-dollar economy that would make it the 15th-largest national economy in the world if it were, as some of its more spirited partisans sometimes idly suggest it should be, an independent country. By one estimate, 70 percent of the new jobs that were created in the United States in 2008 were created in Texas. Texas is home to America’s highest-volume port, the largest medical center in the world, and the headquarters of more Fortune 500 companies than any other state, having surpassed New York in 2008. While the Rust Belt mourns the loss of manufacturing jobs, Texans are building Bell helicopters and Lockheed Martin airplanes, Dell computers and TI semiconductors. Always keeping an eye on California, Texans have started bottling wine and making movies. And there’s still an automobile industry in America, but it’s not headquartered in Detroit: A couple thousand Texans are employed building Toyotas, and none of them is a UAW member.

We are doing fine financially and we don't even have an income tax. Plus the state government has not raided the very healthy state employees pension fund.

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camaroman
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May. 9, 2012 11:30 am

I wasnt sure on Texas because I saw numbers below national average but they were older. I put a link to the BLS.Gov below and your right Texas is lower than national average. I think 7 of the 10 states with lowest unemployment have good fiscal policy, highly rated bonds, and Conservative Governors.

Minnesota5.6 Virginia5.6 Wyoming5.2 Iowa5.1 New Hampshire5.0 Oklahoma4.8 Vermont4.6 South Dakota4.3 Nebraska3.9 North Dakota3.0

Here in Virginia we have 6% corporate and 5.75% personal income tax rate (a bit above where I would like it). We have right to work, and pretty low unemployment rate of 5.6%

http://www.bls.gov/web/laus/laumstrk.htm

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liberalsyndrome
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Jun. 15, 2012 7:27 pm

Yes, those states with low or no income tax and right to work rules are fairing better. And you remember, Claifornia's last spending spree was under the terminator, a Repub.

There is union presence in Texas but it is illegal for a union to cut a deal with an employer to hire only union members. The small town I live near, well the whole county, (pop. aprox. 35,000) has 3 manufacturing concerns (3M, Superior Cable, and Kohler Co.) and they, the employees, have for years strongly rejected attempts at unionization. That is why unions want to take away the rights of workers to decide democratically.

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camaroman
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May. 9, 2012 11:30 am

Again, I think both Republican & Democrats have sold the working class out. They cut sweetheart deals with unions when its convenient and deal with money that is not theirs. The burden gets put on the tax base, which raises taxes, which drives money out of the state. Its a wicked cycle that both parties are guilty of.

I just LOVE the purist progressive that would prefer a $10 minimum wage, union only work places, and a 10% unemployment rate when they could have lower taxes, right to work, a $7.50-$8.25 minimum wage and 6% unemployment rate. When I looked at state averages the argument of work for less doesnt really add up. Even if the hourly wage in RTW state is $3 lower per hower, when adjusted for 5% income tax rate vice 7% tax rate and factoring all the unemployed and the cost of providing them services it seems that RTW state is a better deal?

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liberalsyndrome
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Jun. 15, 2012 7:27 pm

The cost of living in Texas is lower also.

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camaroman
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May. 9, 2012 11:30 am

I am pretty sure this lady is a LOYAL Thom Hartmann listner! And the progressive movement wonders why they cannot get more support???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJwIAlx5R0s&feature=player_embedded#!

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liberalsyndrome
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Quote camaroman:

And there’s still an automobile industry in America, but it’s not headquartered in Detroit: A couple thousand Texans are employed building Toyotas, and none of them is a UAW member.

Maybe you should change your name to "Toyotaman," then...instead of an automobile that symbolizes all that Detroit/UAW did wrong? (wink)

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al3
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