TX stand your ground.....

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Quote camaroman:Even with the inherently anti-democratic "hate-crime" laws? How much more can one be punished by being locked up for life at taxpayer expense. Try execution after one appeal. Remember we are talking about a DNA CONVICTED child RAPIST MURDERER.

But I'll bet you would go right along with the Kumbaya clan and be for the sucking of the brains and crushing the skull of a child right before it's born, if that is what the mother wanted right? Womens rights, you know!!!

I am not be for execution—no matter what.

I am not for going back in time on the abortion issues, any more than I am for going back in time on the Jim Crow laws.

I am also not going to argue either of those issues with you or anyone, because I am not interested in spending my time on something that has no end and no resolution of differences.

That's all.

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Quote Kerry:

I don't want 'just the (FBI's) findings', jan in iowa. I want to know the circumstances involved with either race serving as the shooter and the one being shot and see if you can glean a discrepancy out of that. Were there instances where, with similar stories, the black shooter was accused where a white shooter was acquitted? That sort of thing ......what a farce if government is to have anything resembling 'equal protection' in law....

Sorry, I don't get your point here.

delete jan in iowa
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Hate crime laws are political pandering!!! They prove or prevent NOTHING!!!

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Quote camaroman:Hate crime laws are political pandering!!! They prove or prevent NOTHING!!!

That is an interesting opinion.

delete jan in iowa
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Quote jan in iowa:
Quote CollegeConservative:

Whst if he hadn't dropped the knife?

What if the moon was made of cheese. Would mice build a rock to get there?

First they would have to form a union to force the other rats to give them more than their share. Set up a welfare system so no rat was left behind and steal the designs under the general welfare clause.

Do you go through life never thinking of the possibilites those would be the what if questions.

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Quote workingman:
Quote jan in iowa:
Quote CollegeConservative:

Whst if he hadn't dropped the knife?

What if the moon was made of cheese. Would mice build a rock to get there?

First they would have to form a union to force the other rats to give them more than their share. Set up a welfare system so no rat was left behind and steal the designs under the general welfare clause. Do you go through life never thinking of the possibilites those would be the what if questions.

Would you rephrase this, I want to understand what you're saying before I reply?

delete jan in iowa
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Quote jan in iowa:
Quote workingman:
Quote jan in iowa:
Quote CollegeConservative:

Whst if he hadn't dropped the knife?

What if the moon was made of cheese. Would mice build a rock to get there?

First they would have to form a union to force the other rats to give them more than their share. Set up a welfare system so no rat was left behind and steal the designs under the general welfare clause. Do you go through life never thinking of the possibilites those would be the what if questions.

Would you rephrase this, I want to understand what you're saying before I reply?

it is not hard to understand but every time some one brings up a possiblity (a what if question) you post that moon rat situation. So I am asking if you go through life not think of the possibilites that may or may not happen. Even though they could happen and a plan to cover it is needed.

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Quote workingman:

it is not hard to understand but every time some one brings up a possiblity (a what if question) you post that moon rat situation. So I am asking if you go through life not think of the possibilites that may or may not happen. Even though they could happen and a plan to cover it is needed.

You ask a good question..... Yes, I do think of the possibilities. And I do believe we (as a country/group/individual) should plan for different situations. I don't think it is good to dewell on worst case sequence of events, such as gama rays coming from a near by super nova and wiping out the earth without anyone even knowing they were coming, which will only make you crazy.

The reason I keep saying the "cheese moon mouse thing" is to bring up the obserdity of what the poster (usually CC) is saying. CC has a tactic of making "absolute" statements, being successfully refuted and then he goes to the "what if" question as a way of shifting off the fact that he is wrong.

delete jan in iowa
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Feb. 6, 2011 12:16 pm

Karolina, "I am not be for execution—no matter what."

What would you do if a murderer/rapist broke into your home and intended on doing you serious bodily harm or even killing you?

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Quote camaroman:

Karolina, "I am not be for execution—no matter what."

What would you do if a murderer/rapist broke into your home and intended on doing you serious bodily harm or even killing you?

When your position looks dismal why do you go to these "what if" questions. These are impossible questions to answer, it is just a strategy to change the subject.

delete jan in iowa
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Feb. 6, 2011 12:16 pm

Well, Jan, it is what Karolina and I have been discussing. She just got frustrated when I asked her a question that has been going around these boards for sometime now. I do not think my position is dismal at all. I know exactly what I would do in either situation. What would you do.

1. What would you do with a DND convicted child rapist/murderer? Some here would like to see him rehabilitated. HA!

2. What would you do if a rapist/murderer broke into your home and you feared for your life or grave bodily harm to you or a loved one, an infant child, for instance?

I know what I would to to either in the blink of an eye, no hesitation.

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Quote camaroman:

Well, Jan, it is what Karolina and I have been discussing. She just got frustrated when I asked her a question that has been going around these boards for sometime now. I do not think my position is dismal at all. I know exactly what I would do in either situation. What would you do.

1. What would you do with a DND convicted child rapist/murderer? Some here would like to see him rehabilitated. HA!

2. What would you do if a rapist/murderer broke into your home and you feared for your life or grave bodily harm to you or a loved one, an infant child, for instance?

I know what I would to to either in the blink of an eye, no hesitation.

I don't do "what if's." And here's why....

Constant preparation or worry about unrealized situations is fruitless, when in reality no one really knows what they will do until confronted with a situation. Even in combat soldiers are not totally certain what they will do. That's why they are constantly drilled so that they will go into an "automatic" mode and rely on their training.

I accept that life is full of uncertainties.

I trust myself to take appropriate action when circumstances arise.

I realize that there are more important things in my life than worrying/preparing for improbable situations.

delete jan in iowa
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Do you have guns in your home, Jan, Karolina?

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Quote camaroman:

Do you have guns in your home, Jan, Karolina?

Yes we do..... you're point being?

delete jan in iowa
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Just curious...

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Quote camaroman:

Just curious...

We have many firearms. My husband has been (and may be now) an NRA member.

delete jan in iowa
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Do you shoot?

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Quote camaroman:

Do you shoot?

My husband calls me "Annie Oakley" for good reason.

delete jan in iowa
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Good for you. In all honesty, I have never been confronted with the prospect of having to use deadly force to protect myself or a family member. Hope I never have to. ;-P

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Quote camaroman:

Good for you. In all honesty, I have never been confronted with the prospect of having to use deadly force to protect myself or a family member. Hope I never have to. ;-P

I don't think that anyone wants to ever face that situation, and we all hope that it will never happen.

Aren't you a Vietnam era veteran?

delete jan in iowa
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I am old enough to be in that group but my grandfather got me a medical deferment to keep me from getting drafted. He was anti-war, anti-military big time. He would not let my father join the marines to fight in Korea.

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Quote camaroman:

I am old enough to be in that group but my grandfather got me a medical deferment to keep me from getting drafted. He was anti-war, anti-military big time. He would not let my father join the marines to fight in Korea.

I thought we were in the same generation. I was a military wife and we were stationed in the orient in the early 70's. Very hard to see what all that killing did to our soldiers. I think that the loss of so many good people is why our country is in such a mess today.

delete jan in iowa
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Quote camaroman:Well, Jan, it is what Karolina and I have been discussing. She just got frustrated when I asked her a question that has been going around these boards for sometime now. I do not think my position is dismal at all. I know exactly what I would do in either situation. What would you do.

1. What would you do with a DND convicted child rapist/murderer? Some here would like to see him rehabilitated. HA!

2. What would you do if a rapist/murderer broke into your home and you feared for your life or grave bodily harm to you or a loved one, an infant child, for instance?

I know what I would to to either in the blink of an eye, no hesitation.

I would like to let you know that in fact, I did not get frustrated about the question that you asked me. Not able to read everything on the boards every day, I had actually never seen that question here before. I did not notice the word "murderer" at the end of it, and so I gave you my explanation of always focusing on how to heal & strengthen in a crises, rather than how to destroy further. What frustrated me was how you derided & berated me for my mistake, which was no doubt caused by stress that I am experiencing at the moment over having many overwhelming responsibilities.

In my past, I have had several situations where strangers have tried to victimize me, and I never had a panic reaction to those realities. Always, after a few words we went our separate ways. I consider myself lucky, and/or protected—and I believe that actually feeling empathy and compassion for people has a lot to do with it.

I do have a weapon, and I would never hesitate hitting a crazed or drugged human intruder in the most painful of the least dangerous spots. If it was a rabid or crazed animal, I would probably shoot to kill.

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I am anti-war, but by NO means anti-military. I support our troops 100%. I had 3 close friends that served in Nam. One was never in a combat situation and had it easy. One was a door gunner on a helicopter that rescued wounded soldiers in the middle of on going combat situations. He was never the same and died an alcoholic at 52. The third friend came back in a body bag in pieces.

My apologies, Karolina. It was not my intention to do that. Hope you can alleviate your stress. STRESS-That confusion created when the mind overrules the body's desire to choke the living shit out of some asshole that desparitly deserves it. ;-0

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Quote jan in iowa:
Quote Kerry:

I don't want 'just the (FBI's) findings', jan in iowa. I want to know the circumstances involved with either race serving as the shooter and the one being shot and see if you can glean a discrepancy out of that. Were there instances where, with similar stories, the black shooter was accused where a white shooter was acquitted? That sort of thing ......what a farce if government is to have anything resembling 'equal protection' in law....

Sorry, I don't get your point here.

Claiming numbers (as statistics) to represent individual purposes and actions is a distorted, and manipulate-able, game. It panders to prejudicial thought--even if it claims to be 'against' prejudicial thought just by the very point in fact that it does not describe the event in a manner that can, in any way, disclose the intent and purposes of the actions involved. That's why I hold less credence to the numbers 'proving the fact' than I do the description, and comparison, of the actions involved. For instance, if a white shooter were not charged because that shooter and the black victim argued over a piece of gum--but a black shooter in the same situaiton with a white victim were charged in the same circumstances--I would see that as proof at that point of such racial discrepancies in the use of the 'stand your ground' laws--despite any 'numbers'. However, if there isn't one instance of such a discrepancy despite the numbers claiming 'black are accused more and whites are accused less', I would not agree that the numbers, no matter how much of a discrepancy they imply, mean anything.

I hope that clarifies the point I meant.....statistics are NOT, and never have been, 'proofs in fact'--statistics serve only as 'trending issues' that may, or may not, represent whatever it is that the user of the statistics claim--those 'proofs in fact' take separate, and more direct, considerations to be rationally analyzed by each one thinking on such issues to conclude anything 'statistical trending' may imply--in politics or science, by the way....including these 'FBI statistics'.....

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Quote Kerry:
Quote jan in iowa:
Quote Kerry:

I don't want 'just the (FBI's) findings', jan in iowa. I want to know the circumstances involved with either race serving as the shooter and the one being shot and see if you can glean a discrepancy out of that. Were there instances where, with similar stories, the black shooter was accused where a white shooter was acquitted? That sort of thing ......what a farce if government is to have anything resembling 'equal protection' in law....

Sorry, I don't get your point here.

Claiming numbers (as statistics) to represent individual purposes and actions is a distorted, and manipulate-able, game. It panders to prejudicial thought--even if it claims to be 'against' prejudicial thought just by the very point in fact that it does not describe the event in a manner that can, in any way, disclose the intent and purposes of the actions involved. That's why I hold less credence to the numbers 'proving the fact' than I do the description, and comparison, of the actions involved. For instance, if a white shooter were not charged because that shooter and the black victim argued over a piece of gum--but a black shooter in the same situaiton with a white victim were charged in the same circumstances--I would see that as proof at that point of such racial discrepancies in the use of the 'stand your ground' laws--despite any 'numbers'. However, if there isn't one instance of such a discrepancy despite the numbers claiming 'black are accused more and whites are accused less', I would not agree that the numbers, no matter how much of a discrepancy they imply, mean anything.

I hope that clarifies the point I meant.....statistics are NOT, and never have been, 'proofs in fact'--statistics serve only as 'trending issues' that may, or may not, represent whatever it is that the user of the statistics claim--those 'proofs in fact' take separate, and more direct, considerations to be rationally analyzed by each one thinking on such issues to conclude anything 'statistical trending' may imply--in politics or science, by the way....including these 'FBI statistics'.....

So you don't like/agree with the use of statistics..... okay I can appreciate that.

delete jan in iowa
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Quote jan in iowa:

So you don't like/agree with the use of statistics..... okay I can appreciate that.

I don't like using statistics as if they represented irrefutable facts, jan in iowa. Despite who's using them--including the FBI. But, if you read my description closely enough, I can be convinced of the fact with just one instance. Do you see that point--or not?

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How is it racist can the black guy not buy the gun ?

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Quote camaroman:Hope you can alleviate your stress. STRESS-That confusion created when the mind overrules the body's desire to choke the living shit out of some asshole that desparitly deserves it. ;-0

Although I understand that your definition was a jocular one, a true definition of my situation would be:

STRESS-that confusion when the body overrules the heart and mind's desire to cure people (who cannot help themselves) of the neuro-degenerative and/or fatal diseases that put them in that impossible state, while you are living in the consiousness that the imperial economic system which gives all importance to financial power and no importance to human beings, has allowed industries (which gain more money from the maintenance of these diseases than they would from their dissappearance) to keep human beings in this state of physical and mental suffering.

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Good point, Karolina. are you keeping up with Kerry and Workingman's posts on the other thread? Kerry is arguing the same basic thing with Workingman.

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Quote Kerry:
Quote jan in iowa:

So you don't like/agree with the use of statistics..... okay I can appreciate that.

I don't like using statistics as if they represented irrefutable facts, jan in iowa. Despite who's using them--including the FBI. But, if you read my description closely enough, I can be convinced of the fact with just one instance. Do you see that point--or not?

As I said..... "okay I can appreciate that."

delete jan in iowa
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I believe that if someone invented a pill that could really cure, cancer say, and tried to make it available to everyone regardless of ability to pay, the drug companies that profit billions annually on the "treatment" of cancer would to everything in their power to prevent its use.

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Quote camaroman:Good point, Karolina. are you keeping up with Kerry and Workingman's posts on the other thread? Kerry is arguing the same basic thing with Workingman.

Nope, not keeping up. No idea what post. No doubt the discussion will never come to a real conclusion. Not my cup of tea.

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camaroman, perhaps your post #83 would go more with that discussion that I am having with workingman on the other thread. And, the claim that 'institutional for proft' preempts any even real discoveries against its premise has been made in medicince many times. I read somewhere that, if someone discovered an easy, reproducible, cure for cancer like the discovery of penicillin was for the cure for infectious illnesses such as pneumonia (the number one killer at the time penicillin was discovered), if it were to ever reach the market, it would still take years to decades to do so--and that's because the system has already been set up in a multi-billion dollar fashion to 'treat cancer'....how would that institutionalized for-profit system cope with being dismantled by an 'easily reproducible cure for cancer'? With its own form of goverrnment regulatory collusions already in the institutionalized for-profit industry's favor, not very well.....

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Well, it was a response to Karolina.

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Quote Kerry:

camaroman, perhaps your post #83 would go more with that discussion that I am having with workingman on the other thread. And, the claim that 'institutional for proft' preempts any even real discoveries against its premise has been made in medicince many times. I read somewhere that, if someone discovered an easy, reproducible, cure for cancer like the discovery of penicillin was for the cure for infectious illnesses such as pneumonia (the number one killer at the time penicillin was discovered), if it were to ever reach the market, it would still take years to decades to do so--and that's because the system has already been set up in a multi-billion dollar fashion to 'treat cancer'....how would that institutionalized for-profit system cope with being dismantled by an 'easily reproducible cure for cancer'? With its own form of goverrnment regulatory collusions already in the institutionalized for-profit industry's favor, not very well.....

What makes you think companies are so evil they Will sit on the cure inorder to make a few extra dollars. Like you said it takes decades to develop And get through the trial process. Once through they only have a few more years if that because their patient Will run out And generics become availble. So even though they make money on the treatment the cure could And would also make them money. Plus it would be a huge pr bump for them being able to say they cured cancer. Just like the hpv shot.

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Quote CollegeConservative:

Jan couldnt that statistic be explained by the fact that the black crime Makes up 38% of the crime in this country.

College Conservative,

Your references just fell through. I mean REAL references, like statistics from the FBI, US Census Bureau, etc.

You just referenced a Wiki Answers page, that refers to several Wikipedia pages, at least one of which, the relevant one, is under dispute.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States_Census
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_statistics (Doesn't deal with 'race')
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime (generic statements on the history of the study of 'race and crime')

On the Race And Crime In The United States page:

Race and crime in the United States

" The neutrality of this article is disputed. Please see the discussion on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved. (April 2011) "

There is a paragraph called "Theories Of Causation", but it deals with perceptions and arrests, which are not the same as commission of crimes, as we all know.

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Edited.

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C

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Workingman, the treatment of cancer is where the money is, billions annually. A cure would end the treatment industry. Big pharma, with the help of the FED would probably IMO fight marketing a cure as quackery or phony, especially if the discoverer cted on it like Salk did with his cure for polio. He did not patent it because he wanted everyone that needed it to have access to it regardless of their ability to pay (or be extorted to the point of bankruptcy). The amount of money big pharma spends on actual research is dwarfed by the amount spent on advertising. It is disgusting.

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Quote camaroman:

Workingman, the treatment of cancer is where the money is, billions annually. A cure would end the treatment industry. Big pharma, with the help of the FED would probably IMO fight marketing a cure as quackery or phony, especially if the discoverer cted on it like Salk did with his cure for polio. He did not patent it because he wanted everyone that needed it to have access to it regardless of their ability to pay (or be extorted to the point of bankruptcy). The amount of money big pharma spends on actual research is dwarfed by the amount spent on advertising. It is disgusting.

What he said! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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Quote camaroman:

Workingman, the treatment of cancer is where the money is, billions annually. A cure would end the treatment industry. Big pharma, with the help of the FED would probably IMO fight marketing a cure as quackery or phony, especially if the discoverer cted on it like Salk did with his cure for polio. He did not patent it because he wanted everyone that needed it to have access to it regardless of their ability to pay (or be extorted to the point of bankruptcy). The amount of money big pharma spends on actual research is dwarfed by the amount spent on advertising. It is disgusting.

So corporations are evil... Got it.... Who paid for salk's research?

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Quote Bush_Wacker:
Quote camaroman:

Workingman, the treatment of cancer is where the money is, billions annually. A cure would end the treatment industry. Big pharma, with the help of the FED would probably IMO fight marketing a cure as quackery or phony, especially if the discoverer cted on it like Salk did with his cure for polio. He did not patent it because he wanted everyone that needed it to have access to it regardless of their ability to pay (or be extorted to the point of bankruptcy). The amount of money big pharma spends on actual research is dwarfed by the amount spent on advertising. It is disgusting.

What he said! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

So corporations are evil And eveeyone who works for them are evil to the point where a cure would be destroyed in order to make a couple of extra nickels. I can see them making o profit off of the cure but the pr from the cure would be worth far more than killing it off..

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Quote workingman:

So corporations are evil... Got it.... Who paid for salk's research?

About Jonas Salk

Salk came to La Jolla California following a career in clinical medicine and virology research. After obtaining his M.D. degree at the New York University School of Medicine in 1939, he was a staff physician at Mount Sinai Hospital in New York City.

He then joined his mentor, Dr. Thomas Francis, as a research fellow at the University of Michigan. There, he worked to develop an influenza vaccine at the behest of the U.S. Army. In 1947, he was appointed director of the Virus Research Laboratory at the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine.

It was in Pittsburgh that Salk began to put together the techniques that would lead to his polio vaccine. read more...

delete jan in iowa
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Mellon Family grants and the March of Dimes.

Salk, though he was hailed as a miracle worker and a national hero, remained shy of the public eye. He declined to apply for a patent for the vaccine, saying that he was more concerned with people having access to it than the money it would bring him. After working on the vaccine for eight years, Salk made the vaccine available to the public. He later founded the Salk Institute for Biological Studies in La Jolla, California, allowing others to perform their research.

We may have philanthropic individuals like Salk, but, today I would susupect that they are owned, as is their work, by a big pharma wanting to make billions off of a discovery like the polio vaccine.

Do you think that vaccine would be made widely affordable and available today? I would wager NOT!!!

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Quote workingman:
Quote Bush_Wacker:
Quote camaroman:

Workingman, the treatment of cancer is where the money is, billions annually. A cure would end the treatment industry. Big pharma, with the help of the FED would probably IMO fight marketing a cure as quackery or phony, especially if the discoverer cted on it like Salk did with his cure for polio. He did not patent it because he wanted everyone that needed it to have access to it regardless of their ability to pay (or be extorted to the point of bankruptcy). The amount of money big pharma spends on actual research is dwarfed by the amount spent on advertising. It is disgusting.

What he said! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

So corporations are evil And eveeyone who works for them are evil to the point where a cure would be destroyed in order to make a couple of extra nickels. I can see them making o profit off of the cure but the pr from the cure would be worth far more than killing it off..

That's just nuts. There's no way that PR would make up for years and years of very expensive "treatments". Nobody said that all corporations are evil either. However somebody who takes millions of dollars a year worth of charity for the reason of researching a cure to cancer and have no real intention of providing one is evil.

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Unlike guns which arguably are not inherently evil (but some shooting people are), corporations actually are evil because most, if not all of them are manifestations of a system based on the idea of authoritarianism, with absolutely no humanism.

Corporations promote sociopathology in human beings, which means that those who want to thrive in a corporate system have to foreit the creativity, imagination, intuition, and spiritual consciousness that the human brain is capable of. In essence they are encouraged to physically & mentally regress to the consciousness of being either livestock or predators.

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Quote Karolina:

... corporations actually are evil because most, if not all of them are manifestations of a system based on the idea of authoritarianism—with no humanism.

Corporations promote sociopathology in human beings, which means that those who want to thrive in a corporate system have to foreit the creativity, imagination, intuition, and spiritual consciousness that the human brain is capable of. In essence they are encouraged to physically & mentally regress to the consciousness of being either livestock or predators.

You've talked about this on the Wallace thread with .ren...... why not start a separate thread about authoritarianism in the workplace vs living in a democracy in the outside world? It might make for an interesting conversation.

delete jan in iowa
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Feb. 6, 2011 12:16 pm

Here is an example of the suppression of new or alterantive medicines and treatments. EDTA Chealation. My father actually took EDTA chealation in 2003 for 7 months until the doctor that was administering the treatment had his license revoke by the Texas Medical Board for administering an unapproved treatment. Dad will be 83 this year and still drives and comes to work everyday. The problem with this treatment is that it is cheap and EDTA cannot be patented.

http://www.drcranton.com/chelation/Slide_show/carter.htm

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Quote jan in iowa:
Quote Karolina:Unlike guns which arguably are not inherently evil (but some shooting people are), corporations actually are evil because most, if not all of them are manifestations of a system based on the idea of authoritarianism, with absolutely no humanism.

Corporations promote sociopathology in human beings, which means that those who want to thrive in a corporate system have to foreit the creativity, imagination, intuition, and spiritual consciousness that the human brain is capable of. In essence they are encouraged to physically & mentally regress to the consciousness of being either livestock or predators.

You've talked about this on the Wallace thread with .ren...... why not start a separate thread about authoritarianism in the workplace vs living in a democracy in the outside world? It might make for an interesting conversation.

I am not talking about authoritarianism in the workplace. I am saying that the corporate system is inherently evil and dehumanizing. The entire system must be changed.

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Karolina
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Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm