Was the Wisconsin recall stolen?

59 posts / 0 new
Last post
Frabjous
Frabjous's picture

I cannot reconcile the seven-percent margin that Scott Walker enjoyed yesterday.  The reason I am so confused is in the days before the election every--and I mean every--reputable poll said the election was too close to call.  To me, that means the difference between Walker and Barrett was less than the margin of error--plus or minus 3 percent.

Now, plus or minus 3 percent has become nearly seven percent.  

How could the pollsters be that wrong?  These guys have been doing this for generations and they have gotten very good at what they do. 

For that large margin, I am wondering if the GOP has found some new way to steal the election, like rigging the voting machines' software.  

Comments

Keeku
Keeku's picture
Wisconsin started using

Wisconsin started using electronic voting machines. 46 counties used them yesterday. I really wish someone would investigate this.

 

http://wcmcoop.com/members/meet-command-central-the-people-in-charge-of-...

Entitlement Society
Entitlement Society's picture
Stolen? Yesterday's election

Stolen? Yesterday's election was a joke and should have never happened. The unions tried to change the election results of 2010. Walker did nothing to be removed. Way to go unions for trying to undermine American democracy once again. Though this might be a new low for them.

egoette
Last night there was a very

Last night there was a very interesting thread here (no longer here today) discussing just that.  I'm from Texas but have been following "the revolution" and stumbled on a thread here asking the same question.  The good thing was that they posted a lot of really good info but I only got to copy a small portion of it.

Link 1:  http://electiondefensealliance.org/WisconsinRecall#attachments
The (Usual) Stench From Wisconsin

Link 2:  http://wcmcoop.com/members/category/election-integrity
May 22, 2012 Meet Command Central, The People In Charge of Wisconsin Voting Machines

Link 3:  http://www.bradblog.com/index.php?paged=3
at the top of page 3, you'll see this article:
Paper Ballot Op-Scan Systems in FL, WI, NY, OH Confirmed to Overheat, Mistally 70% of Votes

Link 4:  http://electiondefensealliance.org/files/pressfinal2-9.pdf
These 4 links ought to keep you busy for a while.

smilingcat
smilingcat's picture
Stolen?? How about it was

Stolen??

How about it was bought!!

How much did Scott Walker spend? and what is the population of Wis?

Flash news: You can buy the American public for less than a $20/person!!  Gosh Americans are cheap!!

Anklejive.com
Anklejive.com's picture
Republicans always scream

Republicans always scream about voter fraud, but the number of actual cases is really miniscule. I think in WI in the 2008 election there were 20 reported cases (http://www.prwatch.org/news/2012/06/11569/rampant-voter-fraud-wisconsin-...). Not all were to actually convicted of fraud. I think we have a lot more to worry about in the election fraud department than voter fraud. No paper trail, machines that get hacked... You can't very well expect people to get out the vote, if the vote they cast might not ever be counted.

Sacramento Dave
Sacramento Dave's picture
If your observations on

If your observations on the huge difference between the poll predictions and the vote count had been reported from any other contry, Americans would be crying "Election Fraud".  Sadly the United States of America has lost it's Freedom and The United States of America has lost it's Democracy.  Our elections have become a shame snf sn embsrassment  for the free world to observe.

Recovering cons...
Recovering conservative2's picture
It was a combination of

It was a combination of things, Walker bought a ground game, they were paying volunteers ( at least he was finally creating jobs) ( who knows between the recall and his defense fund may his job creation numbers will improve); the low information voters, I was able to listen to the Ed show and conservative callers were quoting Fox Faux news points about supposed damage to the capital, the beating with the palm trees in the back ground; and I have to wonder if voting machines were not hacked. It will be interesting to see how the absentee ballot count works out to see if the same percentages and the election day votes.

But divide and concur worked. Walker had folks looking at the few cents more a teacher might make but ignoring the Millions a CEO makes. It is really discouraging with the low information voter that they are so well trained that they are chasing after their fellow middle classers if they think they are slightly better off because they are in a Union or work in a sector of the economy that is doing alright.

They don't ask why don't I have these benefit? Don't I deserve these benefits? Who is fighting for my rights? Why don't I have a union?

Also they don't ask what is the CEO doing that he or she deserves over 1,000 times what the line employee makes?

Why does the CEO only pay 15% FEDERAL taxes on their income while I pay 30%?

Why are they not upset over ALL THE COMPANIES THAT DON"T PAY ANY FEDERAL TAXES WITH 2 TRILLION DOLLARS IN THE BANK.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/report-26-us-companies-negative-average-f...

Report: 26 U.S. Companies Not Paying Federal Income Tax

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/03/us-usa-tax-corporate-idUSTRE7A...

Thirty companies paid no U.S. income tax 2008-2010: report

But the scream about Americans who pay SALES TAX, SOCIAL SECURITY TAX, PROPERTY TAX, etc and they make SO LITTLE they get a tax credit so they don't have a federal income tax on April 15.

Haven't they heard the saying you can't get water from a rock?

So in November, we progressives will need to find a way to over come the money, the electronic machine voter fraud, and how to get voters to pay attention to the real issues

 

THISAA
THISAA's picture
Maybe you fine people should

Maybe you fine people should start to follow  http://www.intrade.com/

They called this election as a blowout over a month ago with Walker having a 90% -95% chance of winning.  The "real polls" that were ignored by the lefties had it at between 5 and 7 points all ellection week long.  MSNBC refused to believe this transgression so they called it as a 49-49 tie hoping to drag out more voters for their cause.  Obama refused to show up because he knew it was a landslide loss. The "tweet" from him was a slap in the face of all democrat voters. The DNC refused to throw more money down this rathole for the same reasons.The people that took the exit polls choose voters that wanted to loudly voice their vote to a microphone, so these polls were full of misinformation.  That is the same misinformation pool that proclaims that Obama is still strong in Wisconsin with a 7 point lead. The Obama people are aware of this error and now Obama will have to spend time in Wisconsin whether he likes it or not.  Smart voters stayed quiet, went home and left the exit pollsters and TV pundants with egg all over their faces. MSNBC's talking heads are still on sucide watch trying to spin this as a positive defeat.

Karolina
Karolina's picture
The "real polls" already knew

The "real polls" already knew the inside plans that Diebold was arranging, no doubt. NO doubt.

kodowdus
kodowdus's picture
Entitlement Society

Entitlement Society wrote:

Way to go unions for trying to undermine American democracy once again.

Interesting way of looking at things. I would have said "Way to go Americans for paying absolutely no attention to the mysterious death of Mike Connell four years ago."

CollegeConservative
CollegeConservative's picture
20,000 of the signatures  to

20,000 of the signatures  to get the recal were felons.

Bush_Wacker
Bush_Wacker's picture
CollegeConservative

CollegeConservative wrote:

20,000 of the signatures  to get the recal were felons.

Really?  Where do you get that figure from?  If so, were these felons petitioned in prison?  Or were these convicted felons who pay taxes.

delete jan in iowa
CollegeConservative

CollegeConservative wrote:

20,000 of the signatures  to get the recal were felons.

On a previous thread you said it was 2000..... which is it..... show us your source for the number.  

Also, since when was it illegal for a felon to sign a petition?  

CollegeConservative
CollegeConservative's picture
http://www.thegatewaypundit.c

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/05/figures-20000-felons-including-k...

What lovely people.

Those angry Wisconsinites who signed the petition to recall Governor Scott Walker were involved in over 20,000 feloniesincluding homicide, arson and stalking.

Put Wisconsin First recently matched Wisconsin recaller’s names and addresses to Wisconsin Court Cases. There were over 400,000 matches of cases and charges from just over 900,000 signatures.

It took Put Wisconsin First nearly 30 days running 5 home computers hitting the WCCA Wisconsin web site searching names then matching addresses. The website found everything from election fraud to a guy who is guilty of homicidewith a modifier of not guilty by reason of insanity. The man is currently residing in a mental health facility. He signed and self-witnessed the form from the address of the mental hospital!

Karolina
Karolina's picture
For sure that seems like a

For sure that seems like a reliable report. It's making me think that I should give up my progressive ways and turn over a new leaf to the brilliant light of the gateway pundit.com and FOX.

DowntheMiddle
smilingcat

smilingcat wrote:

Stolen??

How about it was bought!!

How much did Scott Walker spend? and what is the population of Wis?

Flash news: You can buy the American public for less than a $20/person!!  Gosh Americans are cheap!!

Bought? Did you say the same thing when Obama outspent McCain fourfold? Did you say the same when Obama set a record for the most money ever raised and spent on a campaign?

I'm guessing not.

delete jan in iowa
CC - Okay here's the

CC - Okay here's the law........ "A convicted felon may not vote until such time that the complete sentence imposed for the felony has been completed provided no other voting restrictions or felony convictions exist."

There is NO mention of not being able to sign petitions.... so they can.

You need to bring the facts with you when you post.  

Isn't there some rule.... oh, no, Commandment about  lying you need to be paying attention to?

al3
al3's picture
The left needs to quit the

The left needs to quit the whining about Walker's spending or "election fraud" and focus on things they can fix..like why are union members leaving voluntarily.

Per recent WSJ story-  why have over 50% of union members in Wisconsis VOLUNTARILY QUIT the unions in Wisconsin since Walker broke the union requirement?  If union members themselves don' t see the value of THEIR OWN union, then what are the chances of convincing non union households? Nil. NADA!. AIN"T GONNA HAPPEN.

If I'd known about that  devastating statistic before the election, I'd never given money to WisDems.  Waste of money and time.   No wonder Obama didn't show up. 

I wasted money on the recall effort, but if ASCME and other union leaders haven't educated their OWN members on union benefits, the union movement doesn't stand a chance and deserves to lose.  If a union with the power and resources of AFSCME can't educate their own members enough not to slit their own wrists, the union movement needs to take a look at it's own leaders and some heads need to roll big time.  Maybe the cons are right - fat cat union bosses sit around making big money and do nothing.

The recall effort was a giant waste of time, money and needlessly placed national embarassment on Democrats and boosted the conservative cause in my opinion, and I am generally a loyal Dem.

CollegeConservative
CollegeConservative's picture
Most of thesefelons where

Most of thesefelons where still on parole so the law stillapplied 

ah2
Entitlement Society

Entitlement Society wrote:

Stolen? Yesterday's election was a joke and should have never happened. The unions tried to change the election results of 2010. Walker did nothing to be removed. Way to go unions for trying to undermine American democracy once again. Though this might be a new low for them.

Only a conservative would say that holding an election is antithetical to democracy.  The hypocracy is so glaring.

The people of Wisconsin democratically decided to have a recall provision in their state Constitution.  The people of Wisconsin signed the recall petition to hold the election - there were more signatures than there are union members and judging by exit polls about 30% of the union membership probably didn't sign one.  The people of Wisconsin turned out to vote for their candidate on Tuesday.  What part of that is undemocratic?

Entitlement Society
Entitlement Society's picture
ah2 wrote: Entitlement

ah2 wrote:

Entitlement Society wrote:

Stolen? Yesterday's election was a joke and should have never happened. The unions tried to change the election results of 2010. Walker did nothing to be removed. Way to go unions for trying to undermine American democracy once again. Though this might be a new low for them.

Only a conservative would say that holding an election is antithetical to democracy.  The hypocracy is so glaring.

The people of Wisconsin democratically decided to have a recall provision in their state Constitution.  The people of Wisconsin signed the recall petition to hold the election - there were more signatures than there are union members and judging by exit polls about 30% of the union membership probably didn't sign one.  The people of Wisconsin turned out to vote for their candidate on Tuesday.  What part of that is undemocratic?

It's abusing the system and opening up Pandora's Box. So now a governor can't stand up to unions without the threat of a recall election? A governor can't make tough fiscal decisions in order to get their fiscal house in order? No wonder why this country is broke and only going further into debt. Walker won the recall election by a larger margin than he won in 2010. That shows all you need to know about how just this recall election was.

lovecraft
http://felonvoting.procon.org

http://felonvoting.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=286

According to WI law, felons can vote if they are not incarcerated and not on probation or parole.

delete jan in iowa
CollegeConservative

CollegeConservative wrote:

Most of thesefelons where still on parole so the law stillapplied 

You're complaining about them signing a petition....... THEY CAN DO THAT under Wisconsin law!  

Good grief.... no wonder the country is in so much trouble with pinheads like you.  

This is when I wish they would reinstate the draft, it would do you a lot of good.

CollegeConservative
CollegeConservative's picture
No if They are on parole they

No if They are on parole they can notsign they  must be the able to vote to sign.

ah2
Entitlement Society

Entitlement Society wrote:

ah2 wrote:

Entitlement Society wrote:

Stolen? Yesterday's election was a joke and should have never happened. The unions tried to change the election results of 2010. Walker did nothing to be removed. Way to go unions for trying to undermine American democracy once again. Though this might be a new low for them.

Only a conservative would say that holding an election is antithetical to democracy.  The hypocracy is so glaring.

The people of Wisconsin democratically decided to have a recall provision in their state Constitution.  The people of Wisconsin signed the recall petition to hold the election - there were more signatures than there are union members and judging by exit polls about 30% of the union membership probably didn't sign one.  The people of Wisconsin turned out to vote for their candidate on Tuesday.  What part of that is undemocratic?

It's abusing the system and opening up Pandora's Box. So now a governor can't stand up to unions without the threat of a recall election? A governor can't make tough fiscal decisions in order to get their fiscal house in order? No wonder why this country is broke and only going further into debt. Walker won the recall election by a larger margin than he won in 2010. That shows all you need to know about how just this recall election was.

How is it abusing the system if this is a mechanism that the Wisconsinites democratically added to their Constitution?

A governor most certainly can make tough financial decisions but Walker is doing more than that.  Not only that but about 90% of what he did in his first year in office was never mentioned in his campaign.  IE - he was elected under false pretenses to begin with.  The fact that you can't admit that seriously undercuts your credibility.  It makes you look like as big of a liar as he is.

Just because the recall results had Walker winning again does not mean it was unjust.  There was enough of a question as to whether he should still be in office to obtain 1 million recall signatures.  Had Walker run a transparent and honest campaign in 2010 and told the electorate exactly what he was going to do instead of trying to lie about it, the recall would never have happened.

Bush_Wacker
Bush_Wacker's picture
Entitlement Society

Entitlement Society wrote:

ah2 wrote:

Entitlement Society wrote:

Stolen? Yesterday's election was a joke and should have never happened. The unions tried to change the election results of 2010. Walker did nothing to be removed. Way to go unions for trying to undermine American democracy once again. Though this might be a new low for them.

Only a conservative would say that holding an election is antithetical to democracy.  The hypocracy is so glaring.

The people of Wisconsin democratically decided to have a recall provision in their state Constitution.  The people of Wisconsin signed the recall petition to hold the election - there were more signatures than there are union members and judging by exit polls about 30% of the union membership probably didn't sign one.  The people of Wisconsin turned out to vote for their candidate on Tuesday.  What part of that is undemocratic?

It's abusing the system and opening up Pandora's Box. So now a governor can't stand up to unions without the threat of a recall election? A governor can't make tough fiscal decisions in order to get their fiscal house in order? No wonder why this country is broke and only going further into debt. Walker won the recall election by a larger margin than he won in 2010. That shows all you need to know about how just this recall election was.

Of course a governor can stand up to unions and make tough fiscal decisions but he'd had better be truthful on those issues when he's campaigning  BEFORE  he gets elected.  He truly wasn't.  I don't blame him because if he was he probably wouldn't have gotten elected the first time.  He should have stuck to his guns and NEGOTIATED changes in the public sector payrolls instead of acting like Ceasar after the election and doing whatever the heck he feels like doing.  He pissed people off and rightfully so.  I don't like anyone lying to my face to gain my favor.  Be honest and accept the consequences of that honesty.

Entitlement Society
Entitlement Society's picture
ah2 wrote: Entitlement

ah2 wrote:

Entitlement Society wrote:

ah2 wrote:

Entitlement Society wrote:

Stolen? Yesterday's election was a joke and should have never happened. The unions tried to change the election results of 2010. Walker did nothing to be removed. Way to go unions for trying to undermine American democracy once again. Though this might be a new low for them.

Only a conservative would say that holding an election is antithetical to democracy.  The hypocracy is so glaring.

The people of Wisconsin democratically decided to have a recall provision in their state Constitution.  The people of Wisconsin signed the recall petition to hold the election - there were more signatures than there are union members and judging by exit polls about 30% of the union membership probably didn't sign one.  The people of Wisconsin turned out to vote for their candidate on Tuesday.  What part of that is undemocratic?

It's abusing the system and opening up Pandora's Box. So now a governor can't stand up to unions without the threat of a recall election? A governor can't make tough fiscal decisions in order to get their fiscal house in order? No wonder why this country is broke and only going further into debt. Walker won the recall election by a larger margin than he won in 2010. That shows all you need to know about how just this recall election was.

How is it abusing the system if this is a mechanism that the Wisconsinites democratically added to their Constitution?

A governor most certainly can make tough financial decisions but Walker is doing more than that.  Not only that but about 90% of what he did in his first year in office was never mentioned in his campaign.  IE - he was elected under false pretenses to begin with.  The fact that you can't admit that seriously undercuts your credibility.  It makes you look like as big of a liar as he is.

Just because the recall results had Walker winning again does not mean it was unjust.  There was enough of a question as to whether he should still be in office to obtain 1 million recall signatures.  Had Walker run a transparent and honest campaign in 2010 and told the electorate exactly what he was going to do instead of trying to lie about it, the recall would never have happened.

I wonder if there's any data on the political affiliation of those signatures or how many of those signatures were by people who previously voted for Walker. Was that significant?

kodowdus
kodowdus's picture
al3 wrote: The left needs to

al3 wrote:

The left needs to quit the whining about Walker's spending or "election fraud" and focus on things they can fix..

Interesting way of changing the subject. Lets ignore the strong evidence that our democracy is becoming more and more dysfunctional in part because of direct interference with the voting process...

Phaedrus76
Phaedrus76's picture
Entitlement Society

Entitlement Society wrote:

 Yesterday's election was a joke and should have never happened. .... Walker did nothing to be removed....

Scott Walker Investigation

What did he know?  And when did he know it?

Scott Walker -- Ringleader?

Illegal Activity in his Executive Office.

Secrecy and ethical transgressions.

6 Walker Associates.

15 Felonies.

3 Misdemeanors.

OK, Politics is not paddywack -- What DID these Walker Executive staff do?

Documents: Review the Evidence

[...]
Read the case files on the six known Walker associates with fifteen felonies and three misdemeanors. Two Walker associates have already been convicted.
-- Tim Russell, Scott Walker's former Deputy Chief of Staff, has been arrested and charged with two felonies and a misdemeanor for stealing thousands of dollarsintended for wounded veterans and families of military servicemembers who died in Iraq and Afghanistan.
[...]

 -- Kelly Rindfleisch, Scott Walker's personal fundraiser for his campaign and his former Deputy Chief of Staff, has been charged with four felonies for sending more than 1,000 campaign emails while supposedly working on the clock for taxpayers just 25 feet from Scott Walker's office.

 -- Darlene Wink, Scott Walker's former Director of Constituent Services, has been convicted of two misdemeanors under a plea deal for planning campaigning fundraisers, including one with Sarah Palin, on taxpayer dime.

William Gardner, Scott Walker's close friend and campaign donor, was convicted of the largest campaign finance violation in Wisconsin history for illegally funneling more than $43,000 to Friends of Scott Walker.
[...]

How long has this stuff been going on?  Don't Wisconsin tax payers deserve better from their "public servants"?

Walker Investigation Timeline  

2012

March 9 Scott Walker announces that he has set up a criminal defense fund to help pay for his Chicago-based criminal defense team. According to independent legal experts and Wisconsin state statute, a criminal defense fund can only be established if Scott Walker is, "being investigated, being charged with or has been convicted of a criminal violation."
[...]

February 7
Scott Walker's longtime aide, Darlene Wink pleads guilty to doing illegal fundraising and political work on Walker's behalf.

February 6
After leading the public to believe that he was entering into meetings with corruption probe investigators as a matter of courtesy, Scott Walker admits that the prosecutors had requested a meeting.

February 3
Scott Walker issues a misleading press release in an attempt to deceive the public into thinking he "voluntarily" contacted the District Attorney's office.

Just three days later, the public would learn that Scott Walker lied and it was, in fact,prosecutors who had requested the meeting.

The press release from Walker's campaign on February 3rd also reveals that Scott Walker has retained the counsel of two high-priced, high-powered attorneys who specialize in white collar crimes.

[... the sad sordid tale continues ...]

Tom Barrett promises not to let "sleeping dogs" lie.  Barrett plans to press the ongoing 'John Doe' Investigation as a very relevant point of ethics and transparency, in tonight's Wisconsin Governor's Debate ...

al3
al3's picture
kodowdus wrote: al3

kodowdus wrote:

al3 wrote:

The left needs to quit the whining about Walker's spending or "election fraud" and focus on things they can fix..

Interesting way of changing the subject. Lets ignore the strong evidence that our democracy is becoming more and more dysfunctional in part because of direct interference with the voting process...

For the most part, I agree with you.  However in this case to focus on Walker's spending or fraud isn't the answer -  the left needs to take a look inside.  The Left continues to ignore the real problem....the cold, hard, elephant in the room is Wisconsin public union members are JUMPING SHIP VOLUNTARILY at the rate of over 50% since Walker eliminated the union requirement.  

I am a Democrat.  I gave money to the recall Walker campaign.  I still hope he gets indicted.  I am not a Walker backer, nor a conservative.  I see the value of unions in buttressing the middle class.  I too, am concerned about GOP dirty tricks.  But, at some point, if unions won't help themselves, let em go.  I'm not a union member, never been a union member, I'm in private business.  Why should I worry about Wisconsin unions being busted when, at the first chance, THEIR MEMBERS ARE LEAVING VOLUNTARILY?  Why should I give my money?  Why should shed tears over it?

Like most Democrats, I was upset over the recall results.  That is, I saw the WSJ story about union membership has plunged in year or so since Walker busted the requirement.  After that I was mad that I gave money.  If public unions members in Wisconsin see so little value in their OWN union, why am I giving money to them?  If union leadership can't convince their members that union dues are worth paying - I can just hear the argument, "Well I can upgrade my sattelite TV with that money!"...they deserve to sink into obsolescence.  Sorry.

The left needs to examine the causes - and stop ignoring - why so many union members left their own unions while so many outsiders were trying to artificially support those same unions who can't even keep their own members.  We can all huff and puff, but when the institution is crumbling from inside, there's not much anyone can do.

Now, If I'm misinterpreting that WSJ story, please someone correct me, because I couln't believe that so many are leaving voluntarily.  Until then, I believe the recall was a needless national embarassment for the Democrats and a turbo-boost for movement conservatism.

 

kodowdus
kodowdus's picture
al3 wrote: The Left continues

al3 wrote:

The Left continues to ignore the real problem....the cold, hard, elephant in the room is Wisconsin public union members are JUMPING SHIP VOLUNTARILY at the rate of over 50% since Walker eliminated the union requirement...I believe the recall was a needless national embarassment for the Democrats and a turbo-boost for movement conservatism.

Assuming that Murdoch's assertions about the waning enthusiasm of union members is true, and assuming that election results have the ability to "turbo-boost" opposing view points, doesn't it follow that evidence of stolen elections should be of major concern to those who support the concept of organized labor (and by extension, worker's rights in general)?

Karolina
Karolina's picture
This has appeared on another

This has appeared on another thread, but in case anyone who is posting here isn't reading there — before you start yelping about the despicable beings who supposedly signed the Barrett petition, find out about the despicable illegal shennanigans performed by the despicable should-be felons who arranged the stealing of the election: 

Meet Command Central, the People in Charge of Wisconsin Voting Machines

Now that's something to yelp about.

lovecraft
All petition takers care

All petition takers care about is collecting their $5 a signature. How are they supposed to know is someone is a felon? Are you going to use FL inaccurate list?

al3
al3's picture
Karolina wrote: This has

Karolina wrote:

This has appeared on another thread, but in case anyone who is posting here isn't reading there — before you start yelping about the despicable beings who supposedly signed the Barrett petition, find out about the despicable illegal shennanigans performed by the despicable should-be felons who arranged the stealing of the election: 

Meet Command Central, the People in Charge of Wisconsin Voting Machines

Now that's something to yelp about.

Point taken and there smoking guns here, for sure.  I've heard Brad Friedman enough to question the voting machines.  I just try to resist being sucked down the conspiracy wormhole, and if there are good people pushing this issue and investigating, more power to them and I hope they are successful.  Michele Bachman anywhere near a voting machine company sends chills down my spine too.  But just like birtherism, voter fraud, or fraud in unemployemnt numbers, all which I routinely spar with cons, isn't this such explosive stuff that if there were anything really there it would be a much bigger story?

Maybe I'm naive, but I still believe the real story here is the voluntary defection from the public worker unions in Wisconsin.  Considering those stats, the recall tally was closer than I would have expected.  How can anyone expect the general public support an institution that doesn't get any support from those who benefit from it?   It now makes sense that the Dems kept a distance.

I'm from a state that has strong and large public worker unions, and being reasonably familiar with their pay and benefits, I can't fathom why any public union workers woudl be so stupid and shortsighted to voluntarily leave the union just because they could.  I'm wondering if there was other propaganda sold to them.  It doesn't bode well for the rest of public worker unions, if they are that stupid.  Well, hopefully when the purge and benefits cuts start for real in Wisconsin, those who left the union will be the first to go.  Then that shiny new smartphone they bought with their newfound money won't look so good after all.   

Karolina
Karolina's picture
al3 wrote:I'm from a state

al3 wrote:
I'm from a state that has strong and large public worker unions, and being reasonably familiar with their pay and benefits, I can't fathom why any public union workers would be so stupid and shortsighted to voluntarily leave the union just because they could.  I'm wondering if there was other propaganda sold to them.  It doesn't bode well for the rest of public worker unions, if they are that stupid.  Well, hopefully when the purge and benefits cuts start for real in Wisconsin, those who left the union will be the first to go.  Then that shiny new smartphone they bought with their newfound money won't look so good after all.

I'm thinking they drank some FOX KoolAid — or a similar brand.

I had an unpleasant discussion earlier with a Midwestern businessperson, who thinks that people in Wisconsin didn't really want a recall election, because Unions are no longer necessary like "they once were", and these Union bosses in Wisconsin had gotten so slick that they managed to have Union dues taken out of workers' paychecks. Supposedly those dues being taken out of their paychecks was what upset all of the Union members.

Does anyone know if any of that is the truth? 

anotheRedhering
anotheRedhering's picture
up there in Wisconsin all

up there in Wisconsin all those democratic party legislators had to leave the state to try and protect civil liberties. and then Scott Walker goes and leaves the state to protect his own... expletive.

 

media_muse
Undeniably bought & paid for

Undeniably

bought & paid for this election!

In another time it would be called election fraud. Now we just call it Diebold or Citizens United. But before Citizens United there was Diebold - what a loopy self feeding continuous loop we are in.  And the answer is?

Insure all females with breeding capacity be kept pregnant in order to keep producing the live automatons for producing & consuming more zero's for the overlords to put in their off shore bankster accounts.

Bush_Wacker
Bush_Wacker's picture
I was shocked to hear today

I was shocked to hear today that 40% of the people who voted FOR Walker were union members.  I'm not sure how they got that number but it's numbing to me.  It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to vote for the guy that wants to cut your wages and benefits.  There's only two ways of looking at it.  Either Wisconsin is home to a large group of stupid people or there's something funky going on here.  If I showed any conservative that 40% of tea partiers voted for Obama they would demand an investigation immediately into fraud.  I don't know what it is but something doesn't add up.

On another note, addressing the fact that thousands of union members are leaving voluntarily.  Those individuals are more than likely self centered a-holes.  They now realize that they can benefit from all the negotiating of the unions for their pay and benefits but they don't have to pay union dues or answer to the union in any way.  Sweet deal.  for scabs.

THISAA
THISAA's picture
Your ignorance of what

Your ignorance of what actually went on in California and Wisconsin last Tuesday is astounding. Figure it out quickly as November is upon us soon.

whiskeyman
whiskeyman's picture
  Weed wacker , why are you

  Weed wacker , why are you having such a hard time dealing with the liberal loss in wisconsin? Walker won , not because of the private sector unions votes, not because of the tea party votes, not because of the union scab votes, not because of the public sector union votes, not because he was able to raise a large sum of money. He won the election because of the wisconsin voters. Barrett ran a flawed campaign, he ran on the" I'm not walker ticket". It just amazes me that liberals have to find a reason for a loss , It's always someone elses fault, or someone stole the election or the voters are just stupid. When really it all boils down to wisconsin rejected your candidate. And just because someone doesn't share your views , it doesn't make them stupid, they just have different beliefs.

Karolina
Karolina's picture
Read it whiskey man: Meet

Read it whiskey man:

Meet Command Central, the People in Charge of Wisconsin Voting Machines

This came out BEFORE the day of the vote. The election was stolen.  

 

Bush_Wacker
Bush_Wacker's picture
whiskeyman wrote:   Weed

whiskeyman wrote:

  Weed wacker , why are you having such a hard time dealing with the liberal loss in wisconsin? Walker won , not because of the private sector unions votes, not because of the tea party votes, not because of the union scab votes, not because of the public sector union votes, not because he was able to raise a large sum of money. He won the election because of the wisconsin voters. Barrett ran a flawed campaign, he ran on the" I'm not walker ticket". It just amazes me that liberals have to find a reason for a loss , It's always someone elses fault, or someone stole the election or the voters are just stupid. When really it all boils down to wisconsin rejected your candidate. And just because someone doesn't share your views , it doesn't make them stupid, they just have different beliefs.

I don't have a problem with it whiskey.  I'm just trying to wrap my mind around the 40 % union workers voting for anybody that says "if you vote for me, I'll reduce the pay and benefits of union workers".  Is that crazy or am I missing something.  So whisey, would you volunteer for a substantial drop in pay and beneifts to help the state you live in? 

Karolina
Karolina's picture
More proof from the

More proof from the EMERGENCY—please read—serious Wisconsin vote hack issue thread on the Thow Hartmann's Nationally Syndicated Radio board:

Wisconsin Recall Election Integrity In Doubt. Suspicious ‘Free’ Upgrades From Paper To Electronic Voting Booths Occurring Statewide
January 29, 2012

By Segway Jeremy Ryan

ryanj0 wrote:
This was obviously done to influence the recall...  They only started making the offers to transfer optical scanners to unverifiable "DRE" touchscreen machines after the Senate recalls in 2011 so the timing couldn't have been more convenient...  And, given as Walker's recall election was the first election they were used, it creates even more suspicion...  Here's an article I wrote in January about the situation...  This was the first article in WI about Command Central...

ah2
Entitlement Society

Entitlement Society wrote:

ah2 wrote:

Entitlement Society wrote:

ah2 wrote:

Entitlement Society wrote:

Stolen? Yesterday's election was a joke and should have never happened. The unions tried to change the election results of 2010. Walker did nothing to be removed. Way to go unions for trying to undermine American democracy once again. Though this might be a new low for them.

Only a conservative would say that holding an election is antithetical to democracy.  The hypocracy is so glaring.

The people of Wisconsin democratically decided to have a recall provision in their state Constitution.  The people of Wisconsin signed the recall petition to hold the election - there were more signatures than there are union members and judging by exit polls about 30% of the union membership probably didn't sign one.  The people of Wisconsin turned out to vote for their candidate on Tuesday.  What part of that is undemocratic?

It's abusing the system and opening up Pandora's Box. So now a governor can't stand up to unions without the threat of a recall election? A governor can't make tough fiscal decisions in order to get their fiscal house in order? No wonder why this country is broke and only going further into debt. Walker won the recall election by a larger margin than he won in 2010. That shows all you need to know about how just this recall election was.

How is it abusing the system if this is a mechanism that the Wisconsinites democratically added to their Constitution?

A governor most certainly can make tough financial decisions but Walker is doing more than that.  Not only that but about 90% of what he did in his first year in office was never mentioned in his campaign.  IE - he was elected under false pretenses to begin with.  The fact that you can't admit that seriously undercuts your credibility.  It makes you look like as big of a liar as he is.

Just because the recall results had Walker winning again does not mean it was unjust.  There was enough of a question as to whether he should still be in office to obtain 1 million recall signatures.  Had Walker run a transparent and honest campaign in 2010 and told the electorate exactly what he was going to do instead of trying to lie about it, the recall would never have happened.

I wonder if there's any data on the political affiliation of those signatures or how many of those signatures were by people who previously voted for Walker. Was that significant?

Well, some of the people who signed defintely were people who voted for Walker.  That was confirmed by the local political radio station that had people calling in saying, "I voted for Walker but I signed a recall because I didn't vote for him to do what he is doing now,,, blah blah blah."  You had people at the protests that were conservative that also didn't like what he was doing.

I would wager that the vast majority of people who signed were people who voted against him in the first place.  However, the voter turnout in 2010 in Wisconsin was horribly low.  It was like 25% of the population.  So, I would guess that another big chunk of petition signers were Dems that didn't vote in 2010 out of apathy and did not realize the weight of the decision to stay home.   But part of that apathy was that Walker seemed relatively mundane as a candidate until he took office.  Had he been saying all this crap in the campaign, the voter turn out would have most certainly been higher in 2010 and he may not have even been elected.

That is why the recall was necessary.

And I tell you people read way too much into the result as some political "message."  I'll give you an idea as to why that isn't the case.  My wife was at work the day of the election talking to a coworker and the coworker said, "I'm not very political and I don't really know what is going on but I am going to go vote for Walker because I think you should just give the guy a chance to do his thing and finish his term."  She was completely oblvious to the political issues at stake but voted for Walker out of a very uninformed, "common sense" notion of "fairness." - this was based on no understanding of the lies and misdirection Walker used in his 2010 campaign and probably no awareness that Walker and his aides are under investigation for campaign finance fraud.

So, you have a big chunk of voters that responded to the situation like that too.

I guess my point is, when you are actually right in the middle of everything going on in the state and understand the complexity of the micropolitics, making claims like you have on the boards the last couple of days comes off as really uninformed, dishonest, and/or dogmatic.  It is clear you aren't from this state and most of your claims regarding what was going on here are really off base and seem to be more fueled by what I can only characterize as a gross misunderstanding of unions, how they function, and their relationship to the governments which they serve.

Try asking more questions and avoid leveling baseless accusations.  Fox News has been really unhealthy for the conservative movement - actually for all political discourse - because it has basically obliterated critical thinking and indepth engagement as a prerequisite for political discussions and processes.  I have a lot of respect for people like Ron Paul if for no other reason than you can tell that he REALLY thinks about what he believes and casts aside a lot of the bullcrap talking points produced by even his own party.  It is possible for people to critically reflect on issues and facts and come up with two completely different perspectives based on their own personal interests and ethical orientation.  The concern I have with your posts is that they seem to lack the first part - critical engagement and informed understanding.  If you take the time to do that and come up with a different view then those prevelant on this board, then fine.  But coming on here and starting about 8 threads about the Wisconsin recalls when you clearly don't know what is going on is really... immature?  uh...  That's not quite the word.  The best way I can describe it is "thin" reasoning.

http://sigmundcarlandalfred.wordpress.com/2010/08/16/democracy-through-thick-and-thin-how-have-we-ended-up-with-a-public-discourse-of-slogans-denunciations-and-cliches-and-how-do-we-escape-it/

Check out Amy Gutman and Dennis Thompson on "Deliberative Democracy" too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deliberative_democracy

I am not trying to make you change your views.  I am just asking you to expect a little more from yourself before you jump to easy conclusions just because they make you feel good about those views.  One of the things I think important to critical engagement is to recognize the problematic nature of the views we hold ourselves - we may choose to continue to believe in them but I think it is important to acknowledge their limitations.

whiskeyman
whiskeyman's picture
 Hey weed wacker. I believe

 Hey weed wacker. I believe the 40% number you are talking about is public and private unions.  And as far as taking a drop in pay. I would rather take a drop in pay and still be working , then to stand my ground in the unemployment line. And walker didn't reduce the pay of state workers. They get paid just as much, but now they have to pay a portion of their health and retirement. LIke most of the taxpayers in the state.

Bush_Wacker
Bush_Wacker's picture
whiskeyman wrote:  Hey weed

whiskeyman wrote:

 Hey weed wacker. I believe the 40% number you are talking about is public and private unions.  And as far as taking a drop in pay. I would rather take a drop in pay and still be working , then to stand my ground in the unemployment line. And walker didn't reduce the pay of state workers. They get paid just as much, but now they have to pay a portion of their health and retirement. LIke most of the taxpayers in the state.

If you are going to have a discussion about something at least you should know a little something about the subject.

The public union employees pay 100% of their pension and health insurance.

They split up their income into portions.  Something like this;  "Take 10% of my pay and put it directly into a retirement account, then take 10% of my pay and put it towards my health insurance premium, and then give me the remaining 80% in my paycheck."

Walker wants them to change that.  Something like this;  "Take 15% of my pay and put it directly into a retirement account, then take 15% of my pay and put it towards my health insurance premium, and then give me the remaining 70% in my paycheck.

Either way they pay for their own benefits essentially as deferred pay from what they've earned.  Walker and his cronies are wording it differently so that they look like hero's.  "We want them to pay an addition 5.8% of their own money to pay for their benefits".  It sounds so Governor like doesn't it?  After that is all said and done and the Wisconsinites do their "Heil the Gubner", he then wants to lower the "total" compensation that they receive without negotiation.  In other words just cut their pay.  The end result is a cut in overall pay and then force them to have even less take home pay due to deferring more money to their benefits than they had originally agreed upon.  You can praise him if you like for dropping their pay but don't be dumb enough to think that the taxpayers are giving them even more money than they bargained for to pay for their benefits.

whiskeyman
whiskeyman's picture
  If union employees were

  If union employees were paying for their insurance and health , where was the deduction on the check stub?

Bush_Wacker
Bush_Wacker's picture
whiskeyman wrote:   If union

whiskeyman wrote:

  If union employees were paying for their insurance and health , where was the deduction on the check stub?

It's deferred so it's recorded differently.  It's the same as a pro athlete who defers some of his pay until later years for the benefit of the club he's on.  It doesn't show up on his check stub anywhere but it's there none the less.

whiskeyman
whiskeyman's picture
 And where does the money

 And where does the money come from to pay their wages , health benny's , retirement? The taxpayers. 

Bush_Wacker
Bush_Wacker's picture
whiskeyman wrote:  And where

whiskeyman wrote:

 And where does the money come from to pay their wages , health benny's , retirement? The taxpayers. 

No shit sherlock.  They are PUBLIC workers who are serving the PUBLIC and are paid by the PUBLIC.  The same way that in the private sector the wages for a private employee who is serving the public and paid for by a private employer.  The difference is that the public jobs are non profit where as the private jobs are for profit.

People working the the public sector are serving their community for less money than a worker in the private sector for the same type of job.  Usually, not always, sometimes they make better money.  People like you want to reward them for serving you with calling them overpaid leaches and will vote to lower their pay.  What a great country we have now.