Dismantle the boondoggle USPS, empoyer of the highest paid unskilled workers in the WORLD

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rykpa
rykpa's picture

Sad thing is that it takes a failing economy to bring about the demise of this wasteful organization.

Too bad no one put a calculator to its losing ways YEARS sooner.

 

Comments

DynoDon
My neighbor is a 25 year

My neighbor is a 25 year postal carrier veteran so I know all about the union abuses. But keep in mind the volume of mail that gets delivered accurately and timely everywhere in the United States. They don't cherry pick services and locations like UPS and FedEx. And do you want minimum wage workers(those who couldn't make it in the TSA) having access to your bills, credit cards, packages, DVDs etc?

rykpa
rykpa's picture
A local USPS lazy, and

A local USPS lazy, and snarky, unionist was  imprisoned a few years back for tampering with mail. Thom had no response to this either.  face it, you people are wrong...you've bankrupted this country.

DynoDon
Out of how many employees-you

Out of how many employees-you found a bad apple. What a shock-thank god all private companies employees never do anything wrong.

douglaslee
douglaslee's picture
The USPS is completely self

The USPS is completely self sustaining. it pays for itself. It even delivers for fedex and ups since they can't cover many rural regions. Issa passed an impossible mandate on USPS that no business entitly has ever had to fund, and no business entitly could fund. The whole plan was to privatise mail service and get rid of union, pensions, and that inconvenient felony statute so hindering financial fraud, the one called mail fraud. Issa's buddies can now run their ponzi schemes unchecked.They also ruined a whole class of employees, many of whom were veterans returned from multideployments.

Grand Canceler
Grand Canceler's picture
rykpa wrote: Sad thing is

rykpa wrote:

Sad thing is that it takes a failing economy to bring about the demise of this wasteful organization.

Too bad no one put a calculator to its losing ways YEARS sooner.

What are you talking about? They're being forced to pay $70 billion or some number in pensions. It's a total fraud. Another brick taken from the wall and one step closer to lunatic libertarian land.

 

DynoDon
http://news.yahoo.com/60-hous

http://news.yahoo.com/60-house-bills-name-post-offices-zero-fix-144624190--abc-news-politics.html

"In the 18 months the 112 th Congress has been sworn in, the House has introduced 60 bills torename post offices. Thirty-eight have passed the House and 26 have become law. During those 18 months, the House has produced 151 laws, 17 percent of which have been to rename post offices, according to Congressional Democrats.

Not a single bill has come to the House floor aimed at reforming a Postal Service, which is bleeding billions of dollars because of Congressional mandates."

al3
al3's picture
douglaslee wrote: It even

douglaslee wrote:

It even delivers for fedex and ups since they can't cover many rural regions.

And nobody will laugh harder than me if the right succeeds in crushing the Postal Service, because then all those toothless hillbilly Teabaggers in rural areas will find their mail delivery go from $.45 to $10.50 per letter.  In their uni-celled, Fox-soaked brains, they'll blame it on Obama and Democrats.

 

ah2
The postal service is

The postal service is demanded by the Constitution.  You cannot simply "dismantle" it.

polycarp2
When  postal employees can

When  postal employees can read my hand-writing and get a letter from point A to point B in just a few days, I''d say that's pretty skilled.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

 

Sprinklerfitter
Sprinklerfitter's picture
rykpa wrote: Sad thing is

rykpa wrote:

Sad thing is that it takes a failing economy to bring about the demise of this wasteful organization.

Too bad no one put a calculator to its losing ways YEARS sooner.

 

You remind me of the many others that troll around here only you may be the dumbest one yet and that's saying something....Go back to 2006 and see what your party of regressive repukes in congress did to the post office and its employees....Try and learn something, that way you won't look so f--king stupid next time you post....

sheep4thom
sheep4thom's picture
Article 1, Section 8, Clause

Article 1, Section 8, Clause 7 of the US Constitution calls for the establishment of Post Offices.   Nowhere in my reading does it say they have to be owned, operated, and manned by federal governement.

If the federal government allows regional postal routes to be managed and served by private industry with government oversight, does that not still provide the essential service outlined by the "mail clause" of the Consititution?    Where in the Constitution "mail clause" does it mandate federal/unionized work force?  

I believe the Pony Express was private industry?  Owned & operated by Leavenworth & Pike's Peak Express Company.

Tom always references Sweeden & Germany as a model European Socialist government.   Did you know that Sweeden, New Zealand, Germany, and Argentina have all opened up their postal service to commerical markets? 

If it works for them, why cant we privatize the mail industry in the USA and as long as its regulated by federal government I believe we are in full compliance with Article 1, Section 8, Clause 7.

anonymous green
Hell, Linda, you're

Hell, Linda, you're absolutely right.

Better yet, let's privatize the Presidency, and the whole government.

Bain Capitol, we'll call it.

sheep4thom
sheep4thom's picture
How about just call it

How about just call it evolution?   Or we can call it competition of ideas in the free market?    There have been several attempts by Dems & Reps to save the post office.   Maybe we can call it FedEx or UPS instead of USPS?   Maybe Walmart will find a way to distribute mail at every store for a fraction of the price?

sheep4thom
sheep4thom's picture
Can you answer one question

Can you answer one question without a personal attack?

Why does a private postal service work in countries like Germany, Sweeden, and New Zealand?   Why would it not work in the US?

Grand Canceler
Grand Canceler's picture
sheep4thom wrote: How about

sheep4thom wrote:

How about just call it evolution?   Or we can call it competition of ideas in the free market?    There have been several attempts by Dems & Reps to save the post office.   Maybe we can call it FedEx or UPS instead of USPS?   Maybe Walmart will find a way to distribute mail at every store for a fraction of the price?

It's been said in this thread the "financial crisis" is manufactured, it isn't hard to see and I don't know why you or other freemarketers skip past that point like it;s not even there. USPS was self-sustaining and therefore competing with the likes of Fedex and UPS; all you seem to be arguing for is that it get out of the way.

 

sheep4thom
sheep4thom's picture
To me trying to protect the

To me trying to protect the post office today is like arguing to protect typewriter repair service against digital computers.   That being said I went back and read much of the debate going back to 1971.   There was a great deal of debate in 1971 when the post office became "independent" via the Postal Reorganization Act.  http://www.scribd.com/doc/49061423/Postal-Reorganization-Act-1970

Much debate occured for who would pay for postal worker pensions for the workers hired prior to 1971 and after 1971.   To mitigate the concerns that the taxpayer would be on the hook for billions in unfunded pension liabilities the deal was struck to prepay/fund in advance the pensions so that the Post Office could exist as an independent entity without obligating the federal tax payers.

When the Post Office Department became the Postal Service on July 1, 1971, there was no change to postal employees’ retirement benefits. Employees continued to participate in the Civil Service Retirement System (CSRS), and the Postal Service continued to make the same contributions that federal agencies did to the Civil Service Retirement and Disability Fund.  The CSRS had historically been underfunded by agency contributions. As a result, the Postal Service was required to increase the funding of its employees’ pensions several times.

anonymous green
sheep4thom wrote: Can you

sheep4thom wrote:

Can you answer one question without a personal attack?

Why would it not work in the US?

Because in the US of A, if you call me a Sheep for Thom Hartmann, I'll taunt you forever.

I could even mail you taunts if you post your address and your ilk hasn't destroyed the Postal Service before then.

anonymous green
Hell, I think I'll taunt you

Hell, I think I'll taunt you again, just for fun.

Taunt!!!!!!!!

Laborisgood
Laborisgood's picture
ah2 wrote: The postal service

ah2 wrote:

The postal service is demanded by the Constitution.  You cannot simply "dismantle" it.

Where are all those strict constitutionalists?  I guess they're busy trying to "dismantle" ObamaCare.  They can reshape that old piece of paper to suit whatever whim they have ..... constitutional origami.

LysanderSpooner
LysanderSpooner's picture
sheep4thom wrote: Article 1,

sheep4thom wrote:

Article 1, Section 8, Clause 7 of the US Constitution calls for the establishment of Post Offices.   Nowhere in my reading does it say they have to be owned, operated, and manned by federal governement.

It also doesn't say that there should be a monopoly.  Interesting how progressives support the Post Office's monopoly on 1st Class Mail.  The real Lysander Spooner ran a private postal company in competition to the US government.  They put him out of business.

Phaedrus76
Phaedrus76's picture
I think this is a great idea.

I think this is a great idea. We need to force every employer to pre fund pensions and healthcare today, for the next 75 years!

Bush_Wacker
Bush_Wacker's picture
LysanderSpooner

LysanderSpooner wrote:

sheep4thom wrote:

Article 1, Section 8, Clause 7 of the US Constitution calls for the establishment of Post Offices.   Nowhere in my reading does it say they have to be owned, operated, and manned by federal governement.

It also doesn't say that there should be a monopoly.  Interesting how progressives support the Post Office's monopoly on 1st Class Mail.  The real Lysander Spooner ran a private postal company in competition to the US government.  They put him out of business.

I've never seen progressives picketing against UPS or Federal Express.  I must have missed that.

It funny how if a business fails due to the government doing a better job it's because "the government put him out of business" but if a corporate giant forces the failure of another business it's because "the free market decided the winner".  LOL Libertarians.

sheep4thom
sheep4thom's picture
Do you not see the difference

Do you not see the difference between private industry where the owner/stock holders are responsible for the risks taken and a public endevour where the tax payer is left holding the bag for union pensions?

If the cost of labor is too high in business, the business will reduce workers, or relocate to cheaper labor.

In government unions just keep voting in Dems that promise big bailouts on the backs of tax payers.   The reason they were forced to pre-fund pension was to avoid having the tax payers foot the bill for their underfunded pension and to protect the unions.

sheep4thom
sheep4thom's picture
Just one question..... 

Just one question.....  Please focus!

Why does a privatized postal service in Sweeden & Germany work so well and why would it not provide similar benefits in the US?

Thom always uses Sweeden as a model and runs adds for Germany.   Maybe here is one way we could adapt their policies and Libs, Cons, and Dems could all agree?

Bush_Wacker
Bush_Wacker's picture
sheep4thom wrote: Just one

sheep4thom wrote:

Just one question.....  Please focus!

Why does a privatized postal service in Sweeden & Germany work so well and why would it not provide similar benefits in the US?

Thom always uses Sweeden as a model and runs adds for Germany.   Maybe here is one way we could adapt their policies and Libs, Cons, and Dems could all agree?

The USPS was doing quite well before the legislation passed requiring 75 years worth of benefits being paid for NOW.  It was running surpluses while still being the least expensive alternative for mail services.  Why do you think someone came up with the idea of requiring them to bank benefit money for 75 years into the future?  Why was this important when everything was running so well?  I wonder who may have been involved with writing and pushing that legislature. 

sheep4thom
sheep4thom's picture
Ok.  Got it, raw deal on the

Ok.  Got it, raw deal on the pensions but we are where we are.   No time machine to go back and change things.   That is NOT an option.    Again, Why could we not adapt the policies of Sweeden and Germany and allow private industry to provide our postal service?

JTaylor
JTaylor's picture
sheep4thom wrote: Do you not

sheep4thom wrote:

Do you not see the difference between private industry where the owner/stock holders are responsible for the risks taken and a public endevour where the tax payer is left holding the bag for union pensions?

If the cost of labor is too high in business, the business will reduce workers, or relocate to cheaper labor.

In government unions just keep voting in Dems that promise big bailouts on the backs of tax payers.   The reason they were forced to pre-fund pension was to avoid having the tax payers foot the bill for their underfunded pension and to protect the unions.

George W. Bush's failed wars in the MIddle East have been costing us over $2b each week for more than a decade.  What is the total cost of The War Against Terrorism?  Perhaps all of that money that has been wasted or stolen by war profiteers over the last decade could be better spent on the postal system or some other public endeavor.  Oh, but that's Socialism......

Also, conservatives who hate unions should take some advice and go read what Americans had to deal with before unions.  Little kids were used in coal mines and factories because their small hands could reach into places where adults couldn't.  Many kids lost limbs in gears or died in cave-ins.  Workers were paid in company scrip, only redeemable at company-owned stores, turning "free" Americans into indentured servants.  Workers' rights were just a myth, like WMD in Iraq.

If you like having weekends and holidays off to spend with family and friends, thank a union.  If you like being paid at least $8 an hour for an honest days work, thank a union.  If you like roads, bridges, schools, etc., thank a union.  But if you like working 80 hours a week for slave wages, then follow the Republicans off a cliff and get rid of the unions.

sheep4thom
sheep4thom's picture
You are totally right.  Just

You are totally right.  Just let me summarize your post...

George Bush is the DEVIL and source of all things evil?  BTW, what did the wars have to do with post office financial crisis, or were you just venting off some of your Bush Derangement Syndrome?

Conservatives that want some fiscal control are really just hiding their true motives to send children into coal mines?

And without unions we would all be chained to our office chairs 7 days a week?

Drop the talking points, wake up, and find a solution.   Dumping more money into failing programs is not the solution.   Stealing money from people you dont like to pay for your personal pet programs also is a recipe for disaster.  

sciflyguy
sciflyguy's picture
sheep4thom wrote: How about

sheep4thom wrote:

How about just call it evolution?   Or we can call it competition of ideas in the free market?    There have been several attempts by Dems & Reps to save the post office.   Maybe we can call it FedEx or UPS instead of USPS?   Maybe Walmart will find a way to distribute mail at every store for a fraction of the price?

Are you aware that FedEx and UPS use the USPS to delivery packages to rural areas?  The USPS is more effecient than the private sector in rural areas especially in the winter.  Once it starts snowing FedEx and UPS stop delivering.  Or do you not consider people living in rural areas worthy of mail service?

Phaedrus76
Phaedrus76's picture
sheep4thom wrote: Ok.  Got

sheep4thom wrote:

Ok.  Got it, raw deal on the pensions but we are where we are.   No time machine to go back and change things.   That is NOT an option.    Again, Why could we not adapt the policies of Sweeden and Germany and allow private industry to provide our postal service?

Do not need time machine, just apply the same 75yr pension and healthcare cost requirement on every business in America that employs more than 50 people. Or, remove that requirement from the USPS.

sheep4thom
sheep4thom's picture
I will make you a deal.   If

I will make you a deal.   If congress bails out the post office again, I want SERIOUS consequences if they come back asking for more money.

I would agree to accept removing the requirement to pre-fund the pension if there were two additional sentences added to the bill.

#1.   The Post Office shall NEVER request the tax payers of the United States for ANY addiitonal funding to deliver their pension promises to their workers.

#2.  The Post Office shall NEVER request funds from the US tax payers to offset losses.

So we get rid of the requirement to prefund the pension, but they would be BANNED from comming back in 1 year, 5 years, or 75 years to ask the tax pay to cover their pension short falls for whatever they promissed to workers.

The consequence for breaking rule #1 or #2 would be that Post Office would be auctioned off to whatever private entity wishes to purchase it.   If we can regulate kidney transplants under ACA, I think the Commerce Dept should be able to handle regulating the delivery of letters?

Would you accept that?

eseltzy
eseltzy's picture
We need to pay postal workers

We need to pay postal workers and teachers more, not less.  We need to pay financial pushers less.

sheep4thom
sheep4thom's picture
So you would appoint a

So you would appoint a "Handicaper General" to make everyone equal?   Which careers do you deem noble or inferior?   Where did you get the power to decide who should be rewarded and punished?   Would you like the wealthy to wear gold stars on the jackets too, wait, someone already tried that in the 30's & 40's.    That guy blamed the Jews for their economic problems.   You seem to blame anyone that is more wealthy than yourself?

DynoDon
Fine, as long as we get all

Fine, as long as we get all the other programs those countries get. No cherry picking to fulfill right wing dreams!

sheep4thom
sheep4thom's picture
Huh?   So we cannot pick one

Huh?   So we cannot pick one successful program, we are either 100% european socialist or we let the post office fold?

You are clearly one of the "enlightened left".   DynoDon, you symbolize EVERYTHING broken with the left.   Follow along here...

My understanding is that this thread was about the post office, Right?

Post Office is broke because its required to prefund pension, Right?

Libs want the taxpayers to pick up the bill, even if you remove the mandate to prefund pension, it would stil be underfunded and unable to pay out future benefits, Right?

Conservatives, want to blow up the post office and privatize it, Right?

I offered a third option which is to adopt what Sweeden and Germany did and your intelligent response to fix to post office is the end capitalism and adopt 100% socialism?   Good job, but you may want to get a football helmet so you dont hurt yourself....

LysanderSpooner
LysanderSpooner's picture
Bush_Wacker

Bush_Wacker wrote:

LysanderSpooner wrote:

sheep4thom wrote:

Article 1, Section 8, Clause 7 of the US Constitution calls for the establishment of Post Offices.   Nowhere in my reading does it say they have to be owned, operated, and manned by federal governement.

It also doesn't say that there should be a monopoly.  Interesting how progressives support the Post Office's monopoly on 1st Class Mail.  The real Lysander Spooner ran a private postal company in competition to the US government.  They put him out of business.

I've never seen progressives picketing against UPS or Federal Express.  I must have missed that.

It funny how if a business fails due to the government doing a better job it's because "the government put him out of business" but if a corporate giant forces the failure of another business it's because "the free market decided the winner".  LOL Libertarians.

No. They literally put him out of business.  They made it illegal for his company to compete.

sciflyguy
sciflyguy's picture
Capitalism as the US is

Capitalism as the US is practicing it, is not working, why not let it EVOLVE?  

Everything can use a little tweak now and then why not our economic system?

sheep4thom
sheep4thom's picture
Sciflyguy, how would you fix

Sciflyguy, how would you fix it?   What would you replace it with?

Think about it, be specific and please dont use the reply to attack the rich and try not use Bush in response.   Look forward to your well thought out response!

DynoDon
So it is just coincidence

So it is just coincidence that the one program those countries have you want to emulate is the one that fits into the right wing privatize agenda. You're rich-to think I was kicked off the Randi Rhodes Board because I was attacked as a right wing troll. I symbolize everything that is wrong with the left? I guess I have reached my goal of independent thinker if both the left and right attack me. RIP Gore Vidal!

sciflyguy
sciflyguy's picture
Don't need to throw the baby

Don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water..... free enterprise is a good thing.  

But since you asked I would start with:

simply change the corporate structure that puts profits above all else

mandate that labor be represented on all boards of directors

break up the big banks

restore the Glass-Steagal Act 

restore the Sherman Antitruct Act

develop new models for employment besides the current corporate structure, ie the Italian model

amend the constitution so that money does not equal speech

Now that's a good start.

sheep4thom
sheep4thom's picture
So in your mind there is no

So in your mind there is no ability to separate good policy & practices from bad policy & practices?

If I needed a kidney transplant would I have to take a cancerous lung because it came from the same doner?   That is ridiculous!

If you are so enlightened then why cant you consider the possiblity to looking around the world and taking the best practices from many places and avoiding the failed and bad policies?

You approach is just throw everything away and start over as a European Socialist State?

sciflyguy
sciflyguy's picture
sheep4thom wrote: So in your

sheep4thom wrote:

So in your mind there is no ability to separate good policy & practices from bad policy & practices?

If I needed a kidney transplant would I have to take a cancerous lung because it came from the same doner?   That is ridiculous!

If you are so enlightened then why cant you consider the possiblity to looking around the world and taking the best practices from many places and avoiding the failed and bad policies?

You approach is just throw everything away and start over as a European Socialist State?

Who are you addressing?

sheep4thom
sheep4thom's picture
Is free enterprise a good

Is free enterprise a good thing when it comes to the labor market?   Should employers be allowed to compete for the best skilled, or most cost effective workers?

DynoDon
Better arm you and your like

Better arm you and your like minded friends-revolution is the only way you're going to get what you want with our current system.

sciflyguy
sciflyguy's picture
sheep4thom wrote: Is free

sheep4thom wrote:

Is free enterprise a good thing when it comes to the labor market?   Should employers be allowed to compete for the best skilled, or most cost effective workers?

Shouldn't workers be able to "shop employers" for the best benefits and working conditions?

DynoDon
You're living in a fantasy

You're living in a fantasy world where employers and employees have equal power. It will be at least 5 years-if ever-that the employee will have any power in this economy.

mstaggerlee
mstaggerlee's picture
polycarp2 wrote:When  postal

polycarp2 wrote:
When  postal employees can read my hand-writing and get a letter from point A to point B in just a few days, I''d say that's pretty skilled.

The amazing thing s that they do it for under half a buck!

sheep4thom
sheep4thom's picture
Employees have the right to

Employees have the right to apply to any employer they like.   But on the flip side employers also have the right to find the best workers and pay them what is legal and above and beyond legal, what they think is fair for the value of their work.   Employers can & should use the free market to allow workers to compete for jobs.  

sciflyguy
sciflyguy's picture
sheep4thom wrote: Employees

sheep4thom wrote:

Employees have the right to apply to any employer they like.   But on the flip side employers also have the right to find the best workers and pay them what is legal and above and beyond legal, what they think is fair for the value of their work.   Employers can & should use the free market to allow workers to compete for jobs.  

So......

DynoDon
I guess you don't live here

I guess you don't live here in SoCal where the mexican car wash employees are frequently defrauded on their pay by the employer who knows they won't complain. That was the employer's intention when he hired the illegals. Love the free market!