Rick Perry executed a mentally disabled man

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Texas Governor Rick Perry did it – he executed a man who’s mentally disabled with a 61 IQ, despite the Supreme Court ruling a decade ago that executing the mentally disabled violated the 8th Amendment’s protection cruel and unusual punishment. Curiously, the same Supreme Court that ruled such executions are unconstitutional denied a last minute appeal by 54-year-old Marvin Wilson’s attorneys in one final bid to save their client’s life.

Rather than employing science and medicine to determine if an inmate is mentally disabled, the state of Texas uses John Steinbeck’s Of Mice and Men – basically using Lenny from the novel as a benchmark for mental retardation. Marvin Wilson didn’t mean the criteria – and now he’s dead. At least Governor Perry will have another applause line at the Republican debate should he decide to run for President again.

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Thom Hartmann A...
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I've never understood why people give governments the power to execute them. Anyone can end up wrongly at the end of a hangman's rope.

It seems that's especially true in Texas.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

polycarp2
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

The victim, Jerry Williams,21, was black. What if Marvin Wilson would havew been white? Would that have made it a" hate crime", so loathed by progressives here? What if Williams had been white?

Brookesmith
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Aug. 3, 2012 7:00 pm

Ah, yes, it's best to apply such oxymorons as 'civil punishment' (or should all get 'rehabilitated'?) to such 'collective actions'.....despite any complacency with the 'collective action' of war causing death and destruction.....despite any consideration of personal responsibility or individual rights.....

Oh, are both the perpetrator and victim black in this case? What happened to more blacks being executed in Texas as the mantra of condescesion here? But, nothing about how the white men in Jasper, Texas, were executed for dragging a black man to death, right? Some examples just don't follow 'the cause'....no matter how the excuse that it be primarily a 'collective social action' to precede any 'individual responsibility'.....and how that's supposed to maintain a civil society....

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Kerry
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Quote Kerry:But, nothing about how the white men in Jasper, Texas, were executed for dragging a black man to death, right?

I completely disagree with government executions, but isn't this about the fact that this man had an extremely low IQ. Do you know what the IQ of the white men that dragged the black man was? Does Thom comment on all executions, every day?

The point here is that all laws that used to be protected are being bent....and then eliminated.

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Karolina
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I think what Kerry is talking about is one being held responsible and accountable for their own actions. In this case Mr. Wilson,54, had seventh grade reading and math comprehension. Any seventh grader would know the difference between right and wrong and the consequences of their wrongful acts. Mr. Wilson was convicted and sentenced by two juries.

Now, if one is against the death penalty, that is another topic.

Brookesmith
Joined:
Aug. 3, 2012 7:00 pm

That's not what I read in Kerry's post.

As Thom pointed out:

Quote Thom Hartmann Administrator:...he executed a man who’s mentally disabled with a 61 IQ, despite the Supreme Court ruling a decade ago that executing the mentally disabled violated the 8th Amendment’s protection cruel and unusual punishment. Curiously, the same Supreme Court that ruled such executions are unconstitutional denied a last minute appeal by 54-year-old Marvin Wilson’s attorneys in one final bid to save their client’s life.

The big picture is that our laws are being thrown under the bus, no doubt as planned.

Citibank and Traveler's merged when it was still illegal, and THEN Glass-Steagall was repealed. Same thing. It's treason, and a silent, on-going coup d'etat.

BTW, I don't think a person, no matter what age, with a 61 IQ can be held responsible for anything.

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Karolina
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The Pro Lifers eh, my only question is how they could tell the difference between a mentally disabled man and the rest of the Texassins? Their bar is so low it rolls on the ground. No doubt in Perry's mind a 61 IQ is average. He's maybe a few points above junior who was 81 if memory serves. Or youtube.

George Bush Is Retarded -- IQ of 81

I heard something about someone, karl rove or cheney maybe debunking this as a myth. Seems junior was copying his answers from his brother jeb's junkie daughter, in exchange for hillbilly heroin. Like rush likes to scurry the back alley's for. I'm sure saying the death penalty as simply being uncivilized and totally against the principles of a free society is over most trolls, neocons and goperverts heads. So I'll put it in liebertard conservatudian terms.

The death penalty in California costs the state almost $200 million
California has rarely executed convicts since the death penalty was reinstated there in 1978, but the state has managed to spend $4 billion taxpayer dollars on capital punishment since then, according to a new cost analysis.

Capital Punishment: Deterrent Effects & Capital Costs
Capital punishment stirs up fierce debate in the United States. In this essay, Professor Jeff Fagan questions research that supports the long-accepted view of the deterrent effect of capital punishment. States must also come to terms with the fact that each execution can cost between $2.5 million to $5 million, he writes, and ask themselves whether that money can be put to better law enforcement uses.

"All propaganda must be so popular and on such an intellectual level, that even the most stupid of those towards whom it is directed will understand it. Therefore, the intellectual level of the propaganda must be lower the larger the number of people who are to be influenced by it."
~ Benito Mussolini,
"London Sunday Express," December 8, 1935

Perry, i mean Bush employee # **** whines with tears at the thought of citizens in their jobettes making minimum wage let alone raising it. No problem koch caging non violent mostly citizens of color. $72k/yr/head tax money. Still major Denialists in the laws of physics and trafficking christian mythology. Can't save too many fetus' to keep in poverty until they too can get swift redneck justice. As Warren Sapp said at a comedy roast of larry the cable dude. You know you're a redneck if your family tree has a rope hanging from it. These are religionist communities who lynched 3000 for insolence. And for playing jazz and smoking pot, causing it. Now in a race with once American Florida and the Talibamians, over who can execute the most, the fastest. Before DNA evidence messes with their books. You've got to remember what Jim said, that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons. Koch's will have 10 years of appeals collecting tax dollars. Wallmart sells them toilet paper. Less of color people on the streets. I think if you want teabog ditto's to understand you have to give him something to work with. All of the above are neocon bennies.

"If the people knew what we had done,
they would chase us down the street and lynch us."
~ George H.W. Bush to journalist Sarah McClendon

Kochroach & Aleech...
Today many have had their eyes opened regarding the huge profits made off of what is commonly called the "Prison Industrial Complex." Suddenly awareness has turned from disbelief to anger as taxpayers realize the screwing private prison companies, their lobbyists and elected Legislators have been giving them for more than three decades now.

'Verily I say unto you,
inasmuch as ye have done it
unto one of the least of these my brethern,
ye have done it unto me." (Matt. 25:40)

'Relax Your Muscles as Much as Possible'
Slave Labor Means Big Bucks For U.S. Corporations
Prejudice: Ganja and the Jim Crow Laws

Cost - New Jerseyans for Alternatives to the Death Penalty
A 2005 report by New Jersey Policy Perspective revealed that New Jersey has spent $253 million on a death penalty system that has executed no one.

Another reason NY shouldn't bring back the death penalty
An Economic Argument to End the Death Penalty?
COST - Montana Abolition Coalition | Ending the Death Penalty
Cost - Equal Justice USA

Death penalty costs California more than $300m per execution Jun 20, 2011
The full burden of the death penalty in California has been laid bare by new research that calculates that each of the 13 prisoners executed in the state over the past three decades has cost more than $300m (£185m).
The study, by two senior legal figures, includes costs incurred at both state and federal level in keeping 714 death row inmates incarcerated as well as steering them through the tortuous judicial process all the way to the death chamber.

STUDY SAYS DEATH PENALTY COSTS OVER $150 MILLION
Capital Stupidity: The Death Penalty Costs California $300 Million

Shoulda listened to yo dadya dubya...

"To occupy Iraq would instantly shatter our coalition, turning the whole Arab world against us and make a broken tyrant into a latter day Arab hero. Assigning young soldiers to a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning them to fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerilla war, it could plunge that part of the world into ever greater instability."
George H.W.Bush 1998.

No bid contracts dad... "Mission Accomplished"
http://i37.tinypic.com/2s38n.jpg

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DdC
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Karolina
The big picture is that our laws are being thrown under the bus, no doubt as planned.

"Give me control of a Nation's money
and I care not who makes the laws."
- Mayer Amschel Bauer (Rothschild)

Strong corporate profits amid weak economy? = Outsourcing
Corporate Welfare Rats

keryinturpretor
Any seventh grader convicted and sentenced by two juries. Should be executed. So logically there should be no problem at all with any seventh grader working 12 hour shifts or serving the military or koch supertax paid cages.
Kery
despite any consideration of personal responsibility or individual rights.....

Booshammy

i have a dream....jpg

Kery
But, nothing about how the white men in Jasper, Texas, were executed for dragging a black man to death, right?

Remember Tulia? Race, Cocaine, and Corruption

Thank you Miss Rosa
The Racist Ganjawar
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., and MMJ Prohibition

The Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment

Got SqWAT?
Chief William H. Parker greatly reformed and streamlined the LAPD, Parker's reforms had the effect of making LAPD a paramilitary body. Daryl Gates was picked to be the chauffeur for Parker. Today Gates is considered the father of SWAT, and DARE.

Bush. Religious drug treatment in Texas

The majority of prohibitionists profit on the drug war,
... and that is their only motive. DdC
POLICING FOR PROFIT
Money Grubbing Dung Worriers
Forfeiture $quads

Joseph McNamara Collection

LEAPFAMMFAIRMAMAWAMMASAECPDS

NVMBRSTDWDWRCNCCDLSMAPCRRH

A child miseducated is a child lost.
John F. Kennedy

Calvina Fay Prohibition Inc.
The Truth About Straight, Inc. * Teen Challenge
Kids Helping Kids began as Straight-Midwest and over time was incorporated into Pathway Family Center (owns/owned 4 known programs). Pathway Family Center was founded by Terri Nissley, a "satisfied" Straight, Inc. cult parent who wants to continue in the torturing and brainwashing kids for profit industry. Kids Helping Kids (a Pathway Family Center program) has closed or is closing according to recent reports. Closing after years of protesting against fraud, abuse, and torture at the Milford, OH location.

Diane Feinsteinthe best argument for term limits

Judges Caging Kids for Cash

Making Sure Drugs Kill

"Today, as in the Gilded Age, we live in a world where a morality of personal responsibility rubs shoulders with a culture of greed and of flagrant social irresponsibility. Now as then, business has shed its collective responsibility for employees - just as government has for its citizens."
Charles Derber, Corporation Nation

The Iran-Contra Affair 25 Years On Youtubes and Pics

Bush's Faustian Deal With the Taliban
Enslave your girls and women, harbor anti-U.S. terrorists, destroy every vestige of civilization in your homeland, and the Bush administration will embrace you. All that matters is that you line up as an ally in the drug war, the only international cause that this nation still takes seriously. That's the message sent with the recent gift of $43 million to the Taliban rulers of Afghanistan,

Michele Bubble Head Sikh temple killing Instigator
Limbaugh partly or fully responsible for the Colorado Shootings?
Should Palin/Beck Be Indicted for Giffords Shooting"

"Quite simply, there can be no popular sovereignty without a real belief in the value of government. If government does not assume and carry out public responsibilities, less accountable institutions such as the corporation will do the job in their own self-interest."
Charles Derber, Corporation Nation

Bush Crimes Against Humanity

"The corporation is not a person and it does not live. It is a lifeless bundle of legally protected financial rights and relationships brilliantly designed to serve money and its imperatives. It is money that flows in its veins, not blood. The corporation has neither soul nor conscience."
David Korten, The Post-Corporate World

The Agenda

" The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate. "
Noam Chomsky

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DdC
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Quote polycarp2:

I've never understood why people give governments the power to execute them. Anyone can end up wrongly at the end of a hangman's rope.

It seems that's especially true in Texas.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

I never understood why people give governments any power.

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LysanderSpooner
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Quote Brookesmith:

The victim, Jerry Williams,21, was black. What if Marvin Wilson would havew been white? Would that have made it a" hate crime", so loathed by progressives here? What if Williams had been white?

No the mere difference in race does not make it a hate crime.

ah2
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Dec. 13, 2010 10:00 pm

"All propaganda must be so popular and on such an intellectual level, that even the most stupid of those towards whom it is directed will understand it. Therefore, the intellectual level of the propaganda must be lower the larger the number of people who are to be influenced by it."
~ Benito Mussolini,
"London Sunday Express," December 8, 1935

That's why IQ 61 is the brand name of TX propaganda.

CA has 714 death Rorer inmates?

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douglaslee
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Quote LysanderSpooner:
Quote polycarp2:

I've never understood why people give governments the power to execute them. Anyone can end up wrongly at the end of a hangman's rope.

It seems that's especially true in Texas.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

I never understood why people give governments any power.

poly replies: You should probably keep the statement within context if you are going to quote it.

Maybe people give governments power to keep the local para-military group from foisting it's own. In a democratic society, that's generally the sort of thing governments do. They are responsive to the needs of the people. We should probably institute one again.

However, I've never understood why people give governments the power to execute them.

Retired Monk - 'ideology is a disease"

polycarp2
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote LysanderSpooner:I never understood why people give governments any power.
And I've never understood why libertarians and FOX watchers don't see that if the government is bought by corporations, as we are witnessing in front of our eyes, then the corporations will be our government, we will all become their capital, and they will do with us as they please. Libertarians and FOX watchers will be longing to be the citizens of a Constitutional Republic whose just government protects all of their interests.

Fascism—a merging of government and corporations. The Soviet Union was actually fascist and not communist.

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Karolina
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Quote Karolina:

I completely disagree with government executions, but isn't this about the fact that this man had an extremely low IQ. Do you know what the IQ of the white men that dragged the black man was?

Actually, I don't think that the IQ of the perpetrators of the Jasper, Texas, issue ever came up. If it did, I didn't hear about it. You don't believe there is a crime horrendous and heinous enough to warrant execution? I do. This (the Jasper, Texas, incident) is one of them (and it has nothing to do with any racial issues predicating it as a 'hate crime'). A DNA-proven child rapist-murderer would be another....

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Kerry
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Quote Karolina:And I've never understood why libertarians and FOX watchers don't see that if the government is bought by corporations, as we are witnessing in front of our eyes, then the corporations will be our government, we will all become their capital, and they will do with us as they please. Libertarians and FOX watchers will be longing to be the citizens of a Constitutional Republic whose just government protects all of their interests.

Fascism—a merging of government and corporations. The Soviet Union was actually fascist and not communist.

It has already come to pass. But libertarians are not facists. And anyone or any ideology that gives corproations the sames rights as if a real person, I will vehemently disagree with.

Brookesmith
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Aug. 3, 2012 7:00 pm

Quite a while back, in those states that have death penalties, I offered the idea that the victims' families should be offered the option with death penalty qualified crimes. The person still be tried by a death penalty qualified jury and, then, if convicted accordingly, the victims' family make the decision as to whether that is carried out as a death sentence--or changed to life in prison. Some may opt for life in prison. I understand the the DA in the Aurora, Colorado, mass killing case will get the input of the victims' relatives before deciding whether or not to seek the death penalty in that case. The family of the original 'hate crime' case (Matthew Sheppard) pleaded to have the perpetrators serve life in prison than the death penalty. We can vary in this case--but, I, personally, believe there are crimes horrendous and heinous enough to warrant the death penalty......

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Kerry
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FOX news is not a libertarian news organization. It is a corporatist news organization. While I consider myself as a leftist libertarian, I do not condone any viewpoint that equates corporations getting rights as if individuals--even if coming from a so-called libertarian. Corporations are artificial entities and organizations that should have no rights on their own. Just as with real people it is 'God giveth and God taketh away'--with corporations, it is 'the government giveth and the government can taketh away'.....corporations aren't 'birthed by God'--corporations are 'birthed by government'....discussing them as if corporations have 'natural rights' is an anathema to me...I see it as part of the ongoing collusion corporations have forged with government to ignore that particular point when talking about 'corporate rights'....corporations should have no rights on its own....

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Kerry
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The death penalty was meant to be a deterent only to the one being put to death. It will permenantly deter them from committing another capital punishment requiriing crime. I doubt that the cost of executing a convicted criminal is much more (if any) than the cost of warehousing them for the rest of their life. Also, I would suspect that a huge percentage of the cost of executing a criminal is taken up by lawyers that are paid for by the taxpayers for both the defense and the prosecution. IMO, lawyers are a large part of what is wrong with this country. They have legislated and gotten laws passed that, to do virtually anything, transfer title to property, go to court, get a divorce, sue someone,die, etc requires a lawyer and his extortionist fees, whether he extracts them from and individual or the taxpayers. Lawyers, IMO, are the bottom sucking scourge of this country and perhaps the world.

Brookesmith
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Aug. 3, 2012 7:00 pm

Well, as I tell my lawyer daughter, some of my favorite people in history were lawyers (like Jefferson, Adams, Lincoln, etc.). And, it is sort of sad that many in that profession don't hold that kind of regard in law as their predecessors did. But, I guess you could say the same about doctors. As we all march on in the 'Brave New World' more as technicians to the corporate (-government colluded) cause than humanitarians with a human cause (and a government 'of, by, and for the people').....

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Kerry
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Wow.

So many people just love to PUNISH people. The more cruel the punishment, the better! The more suffering for the one assigned to be punished, the better! The more people suffering because of the "punishment" to their loved one, the better! Desperation! Stigma! Humiliation! Pain! Aaaaaaaaah! Satisfaction! Yessssss!

It is such an obvious indication that we live in times and in a civilization that is mentally and emotionally degenerate.

How to reverse this wide-spread and evil sickness?

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Karolina
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Quote Karolina:

It is such an obvious indication that we live in times and in a civilization that is mentally and emotionally degenerate.

And, what's remarkable about that statement is the failure to recognize that disregarding personal responsibility as the ONLY way to maintain a civil society is what I see as the primary cause of our civilization becoming 'mentally and emotionally degenerate'. Absolutely, and disgustingly, remarkable....

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Kerry
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Enlighten me of your belief system.

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Karolina
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So, you don't think that personal responsibility plays a role--the primary role--in maintaining a civil society--as well as being the primary check on any 'mental and emotional degeneracy'? Do you have an idea of what 'personal responsibility' is? You know, being accountable for your own actions--understanding the consequences of your actions--etc. You really 'don't know what I am talking about' here, Karolina?

You know, I see a lot of people on the left with their liberal bias that claim that 'we' as a society should 'follow the suggestion of Jesus' and 'judge not'. We should 'judge not'--you know, not make any critical or discretionary decisions on judging the actions of others--or any actions that go on in the world even with ourself. But, that is NOT what Jesus said. Jesus said, 'Judge not lest you, yourself, be judged'. That, to me, is a totally different perspective. The quality of the judgment is based direclty on how you would judge it for yourself in any position there is to judge--even of your own action as well as those of others. And, it's the very basis for natural law--and the very basis for our jury system--and the very basis for being personally responsible--and judging personal responsibility in others.....there is no 'social cause' that can preempt that and maintain a civil society..... and, as I said, the absence of even sensing the need for such personal responsibility in maintaining a civil society is a main component in affecting its 'mental and emotional degeneracy'....and, it seems obvious to me that it is that way....and it disgusts me how much personal responsibility is denigrated (especially by the liberal 'judge not's')--I see it as the only way to enact a civil society without force....and, of course, if it takes force (even from an 'authority'), how civil can it be?

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Kerry
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I have a sneaking suspicion that you are disappointed that the milleniums-old authoritarian system which most of the members of our species have participated in on this globe, has created this kind of sociopathy NOT ONLY in our upper crust, but ALSO in much of our populace, is being called out for what it has done to dehumanize humans — and you don't want to take responsibility that you have been so dehumanized, like many others.

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Quote Karolina:

...and you don't want to take responsibility that you have been so dehumanized, like many others.

Oh, on the contrary, I believe those who think that 'judgment' is to be absent any and all 'feeling' for it to be 'right' are the dehumanized ones. Do you think that it is 'dehumanized' of me to want to see a DNA-proven child rapist-murderer have his dick cut off, shoved in his mouth with a hot rod stuck up his ass so that he could bleed to death before God and country? Especially if it were my child that he had raped and murdered? And, in the 'judge not' world of the liberal bias, it is better to remove all those emotions and call that the 'proper community response'? Bullshit....

But, the 'right judgment' is 'without feeling' when it comes to D_NATURED sucking near birth fetal brains and crushing their skulls if the mother wants it? 'Without feeling' is what dehumanizes it....and I'm not against elective abortions--and, I've explained why--if I were able to get pregnant, from a personal responsibility perspective, I could myself getting in a situaiton where that pregnancy would be more of a curse than a blessing--but, also from a personal responsibility perspective, I would see that being done in an appropriate time when fetal viability is not an issue.....

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Kerry
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What if it was your adult son that was the DNA-proven child rapist-murderer, would you cut off his dick, shove it in his mouth and stick a hot rod up his ass so that he could bleed to death before god and country? Or if you had for some reason lost control and became a DNA-proven child rapist-murderer? Would you want your dick to be cut off and shoved in your mouth, while someone stuck a red-hot rod up your ass so that you could bleed to death before god and country?

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Karolina
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Incidentally, these images, and anyone who had read your posts has noticed that you love gore, indicate and exacerbate what I am saying here—mental and emotional degeneration.

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Quote Karolina:

What if it was your adult son that was the DNA-proven child rapist-murderer, would you cut off his dick, shove it in his mouth and stick a hot rod stuck up his ass so that he could bleed to death before god and country?

I'll go one more for you, Karolina. If for some ungodly reason, I were the DNA-proven child rapist-murderer, I would see no problem with being killed accordingly. 'Judge not lest you, yourself, be judged'...... and it does take personal responsibility to maintain a civil society.....accepting the behavior, in any way, of a child rapist-murderer does NOT maintain a civil society--or its required personal responsibility that does so....

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Kerry
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But you haven't answered—would you torture and kill your son too?

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Quote Karolina:

Incidentally, these images, and anyone who had read your posts has noticed that you love gore, indicate and exacerbate what I am saying here—mental and emotional degeneration.

Well, gore is a professional hazard for me. So, as long as it's not mentioned, you don't think it's real, is that right, Karolina? As long as you ignore D_NATURED sucking those near birth fetal brains and crushing that near birth fetal skull, you're all for a woman having the choice to abort right before birth, are you? And, you have the edge on what constitutes 'mental and emotional degeneration' in doing so? I guess if it takes ignoring aspects of reality to keep being 'mentally and emotionally intact', you do. But, I call that a delusion.....

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Kerry
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Quote Karolina:

But you haven't answered—would you torture and kill your son too?

No. But, if my son were a DNA-proven child rapist-murderer, I wouldn't accuse anyone else of doing so....

Now, if it were your daughter that were raped and murdered before your eyes, what would you want? Emotionless 'rehabilitation' as the only proper 'community response'? The 'judge not' response....and, then, tell me all about 'mental and emotional degeneracy' in a way that doesn't include your delusions.....'Judge not lest you, yourself, be judged'....are you thinking it's possible 'not to judge' in this world? If so, again, you're delusional.....and it's that 'judge not' position that is more prone to create 'mental and emotional degeneracy'.....a civil society requires personal responsibility in order to be maintained....

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Kerry
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

LOL. I have had gore in my life and my approach to it is to remain sane, calm, and effective in taking care of the situation and the people that need help and emergency care — every time. The fact that I don't EVER dwell on gore, is in my humble opinion, a much healthier position than your delight in it.

So go ahead — keep sucking on those near death fetal brains and crush that near birth fetal skull if it gives you such pleasure and joy. Keep doing it over and over in your imagination. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe that is a healthy mind that you've got there. Maybe you assuming that you know my opinion on the gore that you are throwing at me is the mental health that all authoritarians have, and the reason that they often condemn people to be punished, based on what they think the people deserve, and not on what the big picture and the truth is.

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You're not answering my questions now, Karolina. What would you want if it were your young daughter that was raped and murdered--perhaps as her first (and now only) sexual experience? Emotionless 'rehabilitation' for the perpetrator as the 'proper community response'? The 'big picture' response?

Do you think Jesus tells you to 'turn the other cheek' here?

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Kerry
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

What is the big picture and the truth, Karolina, if it doesn't require personal responsibilty for ones actions and the consequences of those actions? Juries usually convict and sentence criminals to be punished. Are you calling them authoritarians?

Brookesmith
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Aug. 3, 2012 7:00 pm

If my child was raped, tortured and murdered in front of my eyes, I would more than likely kill the person doing it right then and there, or keep trying to until he or she killed me. And if I lived after I killed them — I would probably kill myself, unless I had any one else dependent on me. I would not want to live in this world any more.

In that case or the case of anyone that I love being hurt and killed by anyone — I would wlecome death as well, immediately.

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Karolina
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"Personal responsibility" is a lovely idea. The idea that juries render just verdicts and are not influenced by emotions and disgust to find the punishment that fits the crime clashes with everything we know in this world. Money swears and corrupts, so don't expect the jury to be free of the context or the law to be applied evenly. Nowhere is this more evident than in the death penalty. But it is part of the system in general.

In the case of mass murderers, many are looking for suicide in the process and all are participating in some ritual of death where punishment or martyrdom is better than more of the pain of life. The death penalty becomes an absurdity when the guilty request it. It is macabre when a victim creates more victims and we want to make a moral point out of utter tragedy.

I have never understood why anyone intent on dying wished to take other "innocents" with them. Unlike the suicide bomber who is returning the dehumanizing insult of having been left with nothing to live for, hence--something to die for--the deranged and bitter who punish their "loved ones" and working peers, much less just go after strangers, are twisted beyond my comprehension.

They ain't gonna be deterred by the death penalty. They may seek it. They may seek the publicity that would not come to a non-capital trial no matter how ugly the crime.

Then there are the innocent.

Kerry misunderstands the concern about vengeance and interest in learning what we can from the deranged and other fanatic murderers. There is little about "rehabilitaion" in this perspective, but when it happens it is darned fine. It can establish a perspective of grace and humility that is positively saintly. Even if it be as rare as a miracle, we should not disdain the hope.

I think it is worth trying to understand "why" so we can prevent or at least lessen the incidents of child abuse, for example. It does us no good to glamorize or scandalize our fear and loathing and act as if we were gaining some ritual value to the scourging of these monsters that would heal us. All it does is magnify the culture of death and nihilism in the false worship of illusory justice. If we want to do something to protect the children or address whatever conditions may "cause" these individuals to follow this strange and evil path, we need to get over the lust of punishment as if it were helpful.

Kerry keeps calling this "Kumbaya." I think restorative justice is far better for us than retributive justice. When punishment and public shaming is called for, it ought to be about the healing process, not about a vicarious ritual of purgation.

drc2
Joined:
Apr. 26, 2012 12:15 pm

Well, this is what Jesus said about people leading children into sin--and I think raping and murdering them counts in that category. This is Mark 9:42 (NIV version)

"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck...."

Now, maybe that's not exactly cutting their dick off, cramming it down their throat, shoving a hot rod up their ass, and, then, having them slowly bleed to death before God and country, but it is a description of a fairly graphic death, don't you think? No 'turning the other cheek' here....No 'judge not' here....

Or, how about just Luke 12:57 that I quote quite often:

Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right?

The premise that many of our founders (such as Jefferson) saw in this was the very point about natural law that I keep alluding to--when given enough freedom to judge for yourself, most people can judge it correctly (as Jesus does say in many areas of the New Testament, it's 'in' us to 'naturally do so' if not unduly influenced by outside forces--just the opposite, by the way, of the tenets of 'Original Sin'). The American founders had so much faith in that point (something that Jefferson would call 'rational Christianity') that not only did they sit up a jurisprudential system based on 'the jury trial', they had those jury members, the ones (of one's peers) with the most information to judge by on any situation available, to be able to judge the written law right in line with judging the guilt or innocence of the defendant--as was offered with jury nullification and jury review. Not that that happens much in today's courts--but, that's probably because of the more authoritarian introjection of the written law (and 'its interpretation') that lawyers offer to jurors today than was the original intent. Nevertheless, the whole point in this man with a 61 IQ, he was tried, and so convicted, by two juries. You can downcast the Texas system and the Texas people all you want--but, in doing so, you are also downcasting the jury system. But, then, maybe that's what the present authoritarians want--and the 'judge not' liberals go right along with it as a 'big picture' cause.....but, that still doesn't mean somebody's not judging--or acting on that judgment.....now, if they aren't personally responsible for that judgment nor that action, how will that be conducive to maintaining a civil society?

And, what the 'judge not' liberals are actually creating (besides conditioning the society in a manner that promotes 'mental and emotional degeneracy') is an environment of complacency that allows social predators--both within and without the confines of 'the written law'--to flourish. Children can be raped and murdered and the perpetrator can expect to be generously 'rehabilitated' as 'the big picture'--and corporate CEO's can make 'money-managing judgments' against real people's lives that can devastate those people with 'legal impunity'--and the liberal 'judge not's' look for a 'new paradigm' to hide their own mental defects in that complacency that allows predatory function (as I said, both within and without the confines of 'the written law') to go unchecked and unpunished--and, the 'judge not's', with their own mental and emotional defects, have no capacity to respond decisively to such issues....they don't have to answer it, anyway, they have 'authority' to 'answer it' for them....the kind of 'authority' defined by the written law and not by the natural sense of fairness and justice that Jesus implies was 'put in us' as children...'naturally'.....only to be taken away by the hypocrisy of this world.....and the first thing that the 'judge not' hypocrites remove, along with the predators of society, is 'personal responsibility'....and the natural basis for it....

Kerry's picture
Kerry
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote douglaslee:CA has 714 death Rorer inmates?

Death by quaaludes

DdC's picture
DdC
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Mar. 22, 2012 1:39 am

drc2, has it ever occurred to you that some people are just plain sick, evil, animals that are beyond rehabilition? What would you have done with the likes of Oliver Cromwell, Ivan the Terrible, Shiro Ishii, Jiang Qing, Hilter, Himmler, Koch, Manson? Tried to "rehabilitate" them?, try to understand "why"? The death penalty is only a deterrant to the one put to death. They will never commit the act again.

As to the subject of this thread, Marvin Wilson, he had been convicted of the crime of robbery three times, once with a 12ga. shotgun. Had he not been released early, he would have been in prison at the time he murdered Williams. Maybe we should blame the private for profit prison system for his early release. As it is easier and cheaper (more profit for the private prison system) to warehouse non-violent drug offenders than violent offenders.

Either way your flippant dismisal of "personal responsiibilty" is indicative of liberal "social causes and collective actions" as Kerry stated.

Brookesmith
Joined:
Aug. 3, 2012 7:00 pm

There is no point in discussing this, because you and Kerry and many more are indoctrinated with the popular belief that it is okay to murder people and that state approved murder is not a demoralization to all people that are aware of it and do nothing about it.

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Karolina
Joined:
Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm

Brookesmith, you are repeating Kerry's slander. I have never called for the release of the offenders other than the rare instance where rehabilitation actually happens. My interest in understanding their pathologies is totally about preventing/reducing this problem by understanding it better. To make that into a "soft" position on horrible crimes is to twist my words beyond conscience. You need to avoid that.

I have questioned the value of the rituals of vengeance because I don't think they help the victims and do nothing to lessen the problem for others. They just indulge our passions and keep our minds safe from anything we might learn other than how evil these "others" are and how good we are by comparison.

In our two tiered 'justice' system, the issues of "personal responsibility" fall unequally upon those with the least power and options. There is no personal responsibility for banksters or oil companies. There is only the right to lie and cheat and commit fraud. If you kill lots of people you get to walk; but if you do a personal crime, you will do the time or lose your own life. Makes you want to choke on the stupid, hypocritical rhetoric about personal responsibility.

I happen to believe in personal responsibility and get pissed when rhetoric like this uses it to justify the criminal frauds of the powerful. If there is a place for capital punishment, it is for the abuse of power over others and for lying a nation into war. Holding the average occupant of America's death rows personally responsible while bowing down before the forces of the imperial deathstar and criminal banksters is what I hate about con rhetoric. Your side is shameful but knows no shame.

drc2
Joined:
Apr. 26, 2012 12:15 pm

It cheapens the life of an innocent murder victim to say that society has no right to keep the murderer from ever killing again. In my view, society has not only the right, but the duty to act in self defense to protect the innocent. I am for killing the banksters and corporate heads that are responsible for the deaths of their many victims. But until how corporations and their elite and how they are viewed before the law is change That will not happen. I do not justify the criminal frauds of the powerful. They should be punished accordingly. You need to avoid twisting my words.

We are discussing a single issue of murder here and that is they way I think it needs to bwe approached , by each crime individually. Wilson was an habitual violent criminal that crossed the line and committed murder. After two juries convicted him and sentenced him, he got the justise he deserved. I think you will find you opinion in the minority on the issue of executing murderers and personal responsibility as it is necessary to a civil society.

Brookesmith
Joined:
Aug. 3, 2012 7:00 pm

I agree with Drc that those who. like Hitler, Stalin, and Brookesmith's list of powerful tyrants, cause the deaths of large numbers of people by indulging their love of war or causing or assigning austerity measures to populations, should be dealt a life in prison with no chance for parole sentence.

But I believe that society murdering anyone of our species, even the tyrant, is a spiritual demoralization of the entire species and brings our collective energy down to where we are in the seemingly hopeless situation that we are in today.

For those of us who were alive and aware in the 60's, it appears that the real demoralization of the US people started with the killing of our Camelot president and all of the other the political heroes gunned down in that decade—because it was apparent that those were not random killings by individual crazies who were then scapegoated for the crimes.

Killing the weak and the vulnerable and the mentally ill, shows our species as being the most cruel, the most disrespectful, and most self-indulgent on the planet. We are the most social species, yet we do not keep our minds clear and peaceful and intuitive enough to be truly connected as one real group.

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Karolina
Joined:
Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm

Why do so many conservatives call out suicides as cowardly cop outs when life gets too tough and at the same time want to kill those who deserve a life long existence of imprisoned torment? Isn't that allowing an evildoer the easy way out? Isn't that giving him or her just what they want? I mean prison isn't as bad as it once was but it's not a resort either. I would rather see evil men be forced to give something to society like hard labor or be forced to watch back to back episodes of the Kardashians for years at a time.

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Bush_Wacker
Joined:
Jun. 25, 2011 7:53 am

Prisoners cannot be made to do anything. They get FREE medical and dental care and access to numerous amenities that average citizens do not have the priviledge of accessing.

Brookesmith
Joined:
Aug. 3, 2012 7:00 pm

Let this be a warning-Tea Partiers better not commit any capital crimes in Texas. Your low IQ will not save you.

DynoDon
Joined:
Jun. 29, 2012 10:24 am
Quote Brookesmith:

Prisoners cannot be made to do anything. They get FREE medical and dental care and access to numerous amenities that average citizens do not have the priviledge of accessing.

I want them to have free healthcare so that they can live as long as possible behind bars. If you really think they have it better in prison then go commit a crime.

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Bush_Wacker
Joined:
Jun. 25, 2011 7:53 am

Double post.

Bush_Wacker's picture
Bush_Wacker
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Jun. 25, 2011 7:53 am

If you are a Wall Street offender-you go to Club Fed with the tennis courts.

DynoDon
Joined:
Jun. 29, 2012 10:24 am

I hope you are just a troll and not really this ignorant. Prison as a privilege? The healthcare and dental care in CA prisons was so bad, the Feds had to intervene.

DynoDon
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Jun. 29, 2012 10:24 am

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