The Space Program

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dorfman
dorfman's picture

     On both the radio and TV programs today, there was a snarky comment by the substitutes (Jim Javinsky and Sam Sachs) that, while the Mars lander "Curiosity" is nice, private industry is taking over, and soon the space program will only transport billionaires for orbital joyrides.

     The manned space program is indeed being partly privatized, in part because the government-funded effort to build a replacement for the Space Shuttle was way behind schedule and over budget.  But manned space is mostly for show anyway, and the unmanned space exploration program, including things like Curiosity--which is where the important results come from anyway--remains NASA managed with private companies doing the work under contract.  (Boeing, Lockheed-Martin and MacDonald Dettwiler of Canada were the major contractors for this project.)

 

Comments

drc2
I know, but remember,

I know, but remember, government cannot do anything well.  Try to remember that when you watch the pictures from Mars.  While we all appreciate the private industry contractors who built a lot of this stuff, the design and the planning were NASA team testimony to the value of government providing the focus and avoiding the money maker elite toy "manned" missions for real science.  As one expert put it, getting a human team to Mars might be possible, but getting them back is where they have problems.  It takes awhile to get there, do anything and have enough left to get back.

Cameras in robotic vehicles can do a lot of great science.  This was the most important scientific mission NASA has pulled off for some time.  I hope we appreciate how little military significance it has because that is the best part of this program.

dorfman
dorfman's picture
     Let's be clear: Bush

     Let's be clear: Bush drastically underfunded the Shuttle replacement (called "Constellation"), and there is no way it could have succeeded.  But by scheduling the Shuttle retirement for 2009, Bush ensured that his successor would have to take the hit for whatever action was taken--cancellation, de-scoping, or schedule slip plus massive increase in funding--and maybe even get blamed for the retirement decision itself.  

 

douglaslee
douglaslee's picture
dorfman wrote:      Let's be

dorfman wrote:

     Let's be clear: Bush drastically underfunded the Shuttle replacement (called "Constellation"), and there is no way it could have succeeded.  But by scheduling the Shuttle retirement for 2009, Bush ensured that his successor would have to take the hit for whatever action was taken--cancellation, de-scoping, or schedule slip plus massive increase in funding--and maybe even get blamed for the retirement decision itself.  

 

W's m.o. about everything he did was to pass off corrections to anyone else. His tax cuts, unfunded wars, unfunded part D, wiretaps, torture, military casualties, civilian casualties, world distrust, global disdain, and basic fraud, theft, corruption and incompetence. Most of the world has to still believe there are rogue elements within that party, because the world really likes Americans, and knows they didn't want him in the first place, and didn't vote for him. I think tourists are cautious about their visits to AZ,  TX, and  WI. Both coasts, the Rockies, and the NE are always popular and remain less tainted.

History shows US advances and flaws if anyone cares to look. FDR gave us the middle class. JFK gave us the race to the moon, and the most advances in engineering associated with NASA and the space program. Republicans gave us Joe McCarthy, John Birch Society, Watergate and Nixon corruption, Iran Contra, Reagan genocide and nuclear Pakistan, S&L corruption, W's election fraud, corrupt scotus, illegal wars and associated war crimes, and depression ll. McCarthy was weeded out, Birchers were cast out, but reborn as tea party. The rogues are like herpes, never destroyed, just hopefully controlled outbreaks. Mittt is teaming with the dark side Cheney, so he is back. He and Sarah got in to it. A fascist and A Bircher are kind of like a cock fight or in the herpes analogy one of them is an outbreak and the other is scratching it. Will the American public refrain from picking at it? Will it heal again or get infected? Tune in this nov. and see the next episode.

 

anonymous green
Rush Limburger says NASA is a

Rush Limburger says NASA is a muslim support system.

darlinedarline1...
darlinedarline1@aol.com's picture
[quote] The third thing to

[quote] The third thing to focus on? The one that really raises eyebrows? NASA’s “foremost” mission is Muslim outreach. Somehow President Obama feels it necessary to reach out to Muslim nations in an area that they have absolutely no proficiency.

The idea behind this scheme is to help Muslim countries “feel good” about their contributions to math and science and engineering. If he wants to do this why not just have academic types from ivy league schools in those fields throw them a bone?

Commissioning NASA, a symbol of American exceptionalism and excellence sends the wrong message. Establishing NASA’s “foremost” mission as Muslim outreach is just another example of kowtowing to the Islamic community when they have not reciprocated. Should we expect anything less from this Administration?[quote/]

http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oGkkP1YD5QjSQAWktXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1OGlwZGxxBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNARjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA1ZJUDEzNF8xOTc-/SIG=11pudm6gt/EXP=1346294133/**http%3a//www.rightpundits.com/%3fp=6568

anonymous green
Gee, this is quite an astute

Gee, this is quite an astute thread of informed nonsense.

King Edward Lear, almost.

delete jan in iowa
darlinedarline1@aol.com

darlinedarline1@aol.com posts:

The third thing to focus on? The one that really raises eyebrows? NASA’s “foremost” mission is Muslim outreach. Somehow President Obama feels it necessary to reach out to Muslim nations in an area that they have absolutely no proficiency.

The idea behind this scheme is to help Muslim countries “feel good” about their contributions to math and science and engineering. If he wants to do this why not just have academic types from ivy league schools in those fields throw them a bone?

Commissioning NASA, a symbol of American exceptionalism and excellence sends the wrong message. Establishing NASA’s “foremost” mission as Muslim outreach is just another example of kowtowing to the Islamic community when they have not reciprocated. Should we expect anything less from this Administration? - link taken out to shorten

jan in iowa replies:

(I've taken the link below directly from YouTube instead of from RightPunits so you wouldn't have to wade through the propaganda again to find the video)

If you follow the link to the video below and watch just the first few minutes of the interview with Charles Bolden you might be able to twist what he says enough to say that NASA is all about "Muslim outreach"...... BUT that's not what he really says.

BTW, Charles Bolden is the Administrator of NASA and is a retired Marine.

If your goal is to criticize the President you can twist anything, which is exactly what the right keeps doing.  

Watch the interview on YouTube and make your own conclusions.

darlinedarline1...
darlinedarline1@aol.com's picture
Sounds like a "feel good"

Sounds like a "feel good" objective to me. Lets hit them up for a little reciprocal support, that might make them "feel good".

darlinedarline1...
darlinedarline1@aol.com's picture
Do you think women astronauts

Do you think women astronauts will be required to wear burkas? Or will they even be allowed to be astronauts?

delete jan in iowa
darlinedarline1@aol.com

darlinedarline1@aol.com wrote:

Sounds like a "feel good" objective to me. Lets hit them up for a little reciprocal support, that might make them "feel good".

Your statement reveals your knowledge of math and science.  The Muslim people have made great contributions to these fields:

In the history of mathematicsmathematics in medieval Islam, often termed Islamic mathematics or Arabic mathematics, covers the body of mathematics preserved and developed under the Islamic civilization between circa 622 and 1600.[1] Islamic science and mathematics flourished under the Islamic caliphate established across the Middle East, extending from the Iberian Peninsula in the west to the Indus in the east and to the Almoravid Dynasty and Mali Empire in the south...

Muslims contributed:

Algebra

The most important contribution of the Islamic mathematicians was the development of algebra; combining Indian and Babylonian material with the Greek geometry to develop algebra. In Algebra a mathematician substitutes symbols such as x, y or z for numbers in order to solve mathematical problems.

[edit]Irrational numbers

The Greeks had discovered Irrational numbers, but were not happy with them and only able to cope by drawing a distinction between magnitudeand number. In the Greek view, magnitudes varied continuously and could be used for entities such as line segments, whereas numbers were discrete. Hence, irrationals could only be handled geometrically; and indeed Greek mathematics was mainly geometrical. Islamic mathematicians including Abū Kāmil Shujāʿ ibn Aslam slowly removed the distinction between magnitude and number, allowing irrational quantities to appear as coefficients in equations and to be solutions of algebraic equations. They worked freely with irrationals as objects, but they did not examine closely their nature.[7]

[edit]InductionSee also: Mathematical induction#History

The earliest implicit traces of mathematical induction can be found in Euclid's proof that the number of primes is infinite (c. 300 BCE). The first explicit formulation of the principle of induction was given by Pascal in his Traité du triangle arithmétique (1665).

In between, implicit proof by induction for arithmetic sequences was introduced by al-Karaji (c. 1000) and continued by al-Samaw'al, who used it for special cases of the binomial theorem and properties of Pascal's triangle.

read more......

Are you so threatened by knowledge that you are unable to give credit to other peoples?  If we want to have a peaceful world we need to begin to make friends with the Muslims.

miksilvr
dorfman wrote: But manned

dorfman wrote:

But manned space is mostly for show anyway, ...

As they say, i beg to differ ...

"It Came From Outer Space" is an episode of the History Channel's "Modern Marvels" series (S13E15) ; it covered a lot of the spinoffs from the space program that have spread to the economy, including filters used in kidney dialysis machines, fireproof clothing used by fire fighters and pilots, paint developed for the space shuttle that withstands high temperatures and protects the steel skeleton of high-rise buildings in case of fires, air tanks used by fire fighters, etc ... 

(sorry, the free version on youtube has been removed, but you can read the summary on this page)

http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=7975300 

also on the web, a slideshow at CIO web site :
"It Came From Outer Space: NASA Innovations in Our Lives"

http://www.cio.com/article/504013/It_Came_From_Outer_Space_NASA_Innovations_in_Our_Lives 

Note also this excerpt from a link provided above by darlinedarline1
{http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/07/nasa_no_americans_in_space_any.html}:

Time and money issues aside, accusing NASA of a lack of innovation is ludicrous. According to NASA Scientific and Technical Information, NASA has filed over 6,300 patents with the U.S. government. So much new technology has come from NASA that one can hardly look around without seeing devices and techniques that originated from the space program -- exercise machines, satellite radio, scratch-resistant lenses, memory foam, shoe insoles, water filtering systems, cordless tools, home security systems, and flat-panel televisions, to name just a few. In addition to reducing our national energy consumption by such innovations as Radiant Barrier, it has been estimated that for every dollar the U.S. government has given NASA for space R&D, seven dollars are returned in the form of corporate and personal income taxes from increased jobs and economic growth. One NASA innovation, "safety grooving" in concrete for highways and airport landing strips, was so successful that it has been estimated to have reduced highway accidents by 85%, as well as created an entire industry, as shown by the International Grooving and Grinding Association.

Medical knowledge and technology have also benefited tremendously from NASA research. The health difficulties that humans encounter in space spawned a slew of techniques and devices that have since been adopted by doctors and hospitals throughout the U.S. medical system, and subsequently the world, saving innumerable lives and untold amounts in medical costs. Improved pacemakers, the ear thermometer, breast biopsies, ultrasound imaging systems, invisible braces -- the list goes on.

...

Now, go up to somebody you love who's own life (or the life of a family member) may have been saved by one of the many innovations outlined on this page and tell them that NASA developments and patents are mostly for show anyway, and see what their response is after giving them time to review the above material.

I doubt they will agree with you.

darlinedarline1...
darlinedarline1@aol.com's picture
jan in iowa wrote:Are you so

jan in iowa wrote:
Are you so threatened by knowledge that you are unable to give credit to other peoples?  If we want to have a peaceful world we need to begin to make friends with the Muslims.

Not at all. But what have they done with their"knowledge"? Why do they still cling to the dark ages? Do you agree with the way they view and treat women?  If it weren't for their resources we want to exploit, they would still be herding goats and riding camels, despite their wonderful contibutions to science and math, never mind they could do nothing with that knowledge without our showing them.

delete jan in iowa
Civilizations rise, flourish,

Civilizations rise, flourish, and fall..... that's history.  Muslims made great strides as did other civilization like those in India, China, Greece, Roman, Spain, France, the Netherlands and England, doing it all quite well without America's guidance.  In terms of world history, the US has been here just a few moments.

Of course, I don't like how women are treated by the Muslims or in this country.

However, your original post was criticizing the President and his desire to reach out to the Muslim world to begin to repair the years of war, quoting a website that said that was the main purpose of NASA.  WRONG!  Just WRONG!

darlinedarline1...
darlinedarline1@aol.com's picture
The purpose of the sited

The purpose of the sited article in my original post was not to criticize Obama. But to point out NASA's new mission. I have plenty of criticizisms about Obama. But that is not the subject of this thread. If he wants to reach out to them, then why, in 4 years, has he not stopped the occupation of their countries?

If we continue to kowtow to Muslim push, then you might want to get yourself a burka.

anonymous green
kowtowing to muslim putsch

kowtowing to muslim putsch will require burqaism?

yes, well, how can anyone argue with this logic.

miksilvr
The above article about NASA

The above article about NASA and Muslim outreach is two years old; no wonder I don't recall hearing about this recently ...

Here is another two year old article in response : 

White House, NASA, Defend Comments About NASA Outreach to Muslim World Criticized by Conservatives

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2010/07/white-house-nasa-defend-comments-about-nasa-outreach-to-muslim-world-criticized-by-conservatives/ 

I believe Charles Bolden over stated the Muslim outreach because he was speaking to Al Jazeera. As this article from ABCNEWS states, Obama wanted to get more countries helping out with the international space station project, including those with Muslim populations. I don't see any reason to say this is part of some Muslim conspiracy or anything like that.

Here is another response from the White House :

NASA chief says agency's goal is Muslim outreach, forgets to mention space

http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2010/0714/NASA-chief-says-agency-s-goal-is-Muslim-outreach-forgets-to-mention-space 

Bringing this old item up at this time, in this post, merely looks like more of the same old anti Obama crap. Just like Romney's dig at Obama with the birth certificate comment, especially with this reply timed during the RNC convention in Tampa.

delete jan in iowa
darlinedarline1@aol.com

darlinedarline1@aol.com wrote:

The purpose of the sited article in my original post was not to criticize Obama. But to point out NASA's new mission. 

You are WRONG about NASA's new mission, but part of their mission, like reaching out to Russia, China and Japan to further the space program.  You would know that if you bothered to watch the entire video.  

Stop distorting what was said on the video.  

delete jan in iowa
The interview was 21+ minutes

The interview was 21+ minutes long.  He mentions the Muslims in the first 3-4 minutes a couple of times and then goes on to talk about other aspects of NASA.  

miksilvr.... you're right this is an OLD story.  Thanks for the backup.

If folks would just take the time to view the video there would not be any misunderstanding, and others would not be able to distort what was actually said.

miksilvr
What, no comments on my reply

What, no comments on my reply (#13, not #9 ... where did that come from ?) about the contributions of NASA and its contractors to the economy ? You mean I missed the first hour of Thom's show working on this for nothing ?

Go back and read it again, then think about it the next time you are thinking about saying spending on the space program is a waste of time, or hear someone else making comments like that.

Go down to the nearest fire station and ask them if they knew the fire proof materials their suits are made of and the air tanks they use were developed for the space program ... I dare you to tell them you think the money spent developing those products was wasted.

Heck, I'm off to http://www.livestream.com/thomhartmann to watch the replay of Thom's first hour today ... John Nichols was scheduled.