The NRA has finally broken its silence...

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After the Newtown massacre. In a statement released on Tuesday, the nation’s largest gun lobby said, “We were shocked, saddened and heartbroken by the news of the horrific and senseless murders in Newtown…The NRA is prepared to offer meaningful contributions to help make sure this never happens again.” What sort of contributions the NRA is willing to make is still unknown, though the organization said it plans to hold a major news conference on Friday.

According to polls, the NRA takes a far more radical stand defending so-called gun rights than most of its members do, including defending the right of people on the FBI Terror Watch List to buy guns, defending the right to buy guns without a background check, and defending the right to buy high capacity ammo clips like the ones used in so many previous mass shootings. But the days of the all-powerful NRA may be numbered, now that shock and anger has swept the nation following the death of twenty first graders at Sandy Hook Elementary School. Today, the President tapped Joe Biden to lead the effort to enact new gun safety measures.

We all must get involved in this effort to better protect our nation’s kids from senseless gun violence.

Thom Hartmann Administrator's picture
Thom Hartmann A...
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Comments

The "all-powerful NRA " as you put it only has an est. 4.3 million members. There are 10's of millions of gun owners in this country who do not belong to the NRA myself included.

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mjolnir
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Mar. 3, 2011 11:42 am

We need to require a registration of each firearm owned in the country, previously purchased and forthcoming. And we need to require that gun owners carry firearms insurance (we have mandatory vehicle insurance to prevent uninsured drivers from operating vehicles and/or from operating them so as not to cause detriment to the general public).
Like vehicle operation & registration, the government can enact a required weapons test, and decide on grades of weapons to test for, and partner with the NRA (or whoever) to enact a test: handgun, rifle, semi-automatic weapon, etc. And an owner can test for a specific license in order to own that weapon (like a commercial grade vs regular traffic driver's license).
Each test requires a fee and each license will be on file. For each firearm owned, a filing fee or a registration fee will be assessed to maintain a database of those weapons and will be assessed annually (like we do for motor vehicles) and think of all the government revenue.
Also, the Insurance companies would be able now charge a premium on firearms insurance. And because they need to do a background check for coverage, owners will have to submit previous medical and mental health records to that insurance company or the company will have permission to find them. If that insurance company finds any mental health reason not to cover someone for firearms insurance, that person does not get to have a firearms license.
And the NRA (they should be happy to do it their way) is responsible for the type of test, the Insurance companies are responsible for the background checks and their data storage, and the government is responsible for the database, filing, licensing and storage of information, and collection of revenues.
Like all systems it has to be intertwined with personal responsibility and COOPERATIVE INTERACTION to test for ownership, and file with your insurance (or it's against the law, just like it's against the law to own an unregistered firearm already in some places) and it's dependent on the mental health community to report accurately and file accordingly, and the insurance companies to perform a speedy enough background check. as there is only a 5-day wait in some areas and at almost no gun shows.
This does not impinge on the "right to keep & bear" nor does it impinge on the right to maintain a weapon for those who do not trust their government or police in the face of circumstances. There are third-world contries where the government has been overthrown and the 'government' then makes people begin to "disappear", so I understand this need to be able to "defend oneself" in this case.

And if anyone is worried that the insurance companies might get sued the next time a massacre happens, that's the cost of doing business. When's the last time a vehicle insurer was sued when someone is charged with Vehicular Manslaughter? If someone can take any car they can operate and drive it into a crowded spot and do almost the same thing that can be done with a firearm to the general *unsuspecting* public, why are cars and guns treated so differently?
If you say it's because the 2nd amendment gives us the right... cars weren't around back when that was written, they had horses and wagons (which required some amount of skill, btw) and people register and train for safe operation of all kinds of things that might cause harm to the general public if misused, construction equipment, demolition explosives, cranes, 18-wheeler trucks, hazmat disposal, prescription drugs. Guns is where the line is drawn? Really?

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Ryval
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Dec. 19, 2012 12:32 pm

Would any of this have prevented the CT. attrocity?

Redwing's picture
Redwing
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Jun. 21, 2012 4:12 am

Does the testing, licensing and requiring insurance prevent the 40,000 deaths/year caused by automobile "accidents"? Where is the outrage?

darlinedarline1@aol.com's picture
darlinedarline1...
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Aug. 29, 2012 8:27 am

I hope we all understand the difference between a right and a privilege. Which makes me wonder if Ryval is okay with applying licensing, fees, registration, and insurance requirements to other rights like speech, the press, voting, or religion?

Paleo-con
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Nothing in the Bill of Rights is absolute. Even First Amendment freedoms can be abridged by the state if there is no alternative way to achieve a compelling public interest.

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stuff
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Nov. 24, 2012 3:59 pm
Quote stuff:

Nothing in the Bill of Rights is absolute. Even First Amendment freedoms can be abridged by the state if there is no alternative way to achieve a compelling public interest.

Or to silence dissent or for oppression of a perceived enemy of the state using a trumped up "compelling reason".

darlinedarline1@aol.com's picture
darlinedarline1...
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Aug. 29, 2012 8:27 am

We must redefine the term assault weapon to weapon of war or combat weapon. This would apply to some hand guns as well as semi auto rifles.

We could have another category for home defense weapons and hunting weapons.

We have learned (the hard way) that the definition becomes the thing.

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MA'AT
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Jul. 6, 2010 5:45 pm

It's like the old cliche "the cat's out of the bag" so to speak. It would not matter if ALL guns were banned. The fact that they are already in existence and circulation precludes them from being regulated out of existence. It's like the "war on drugs", hows that going? It has certainly driven up the prices and made those that profit from them richer. The same with guns (and ammunition) it will only drive them underground and up in price. People that want them will still be able to get them. It is the breakdown of society's basic building blocks, like the family, and sick twisted values that have been foisted on our children for a generation now. Being held personally responsible and accountable is no longer acceptable by the communitarians. Guns are not the problem.

darlinedarline1@aol.com's picture
darlinedarline1...
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Aug. 29, 2012 8:27 am
Quote darlinedarline1@aol.com:It's like the old cliche "the cat's out of the bag" so to speak. It would not matter if ALL guns were banned. The fact that they are already in existence and circulation precludes them from being regulated out of existence. It's like the "war on drugs", hows that going? It has certainly driven up the prices and made those that profit from them richer. The same with guns (and ammunition) it will only drive them underground and up in price. People that want them will still be able to get them. It is the breakdown of society's basic building blocks, like the family, and sick twisted values that have been foisted on our children for a generation now. Being held personally responsible and accountable is no longer acceptable by the communitarians. Guns are not the problem.

Precisely, although where I'm from (white, rural America; my sympathies to your grandchild), the saying is, "The horse is out of the barn."

There is no practical means by which owners of military-style rifles and carbines, or gun dealers with large inventories of such weapons, can be compelled to surrender them, especially when a few simple modifications can render these firearms lawful. On the other hand, such modifications might make them less deadly in the hands of a deranged killer. Perhaps it's worth a shot (no pun intended).

stuff's picture
stuff
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Nov. 24, 2012 3:59 pm

Fear not Stuff. The NRA has been flooded with fresh donations, and new voters. Any rifle that remotely fits into some progressives version of an "assault rifle" is sold out at gunstores and the manufactures and importers will be making them 24/7 for a long time. Magazines, which are reusable, never wear out, are made of plastic or stamped metal, are available worldwide and I guarantee containers of them are being shipped reaping a nice profit from the manufacturer to the end customer. Check your local government office. Mine has never seen such a demand for purchase permits and a backround check at a gunstore can take two hours or more. For those that can enter data online, the servers have crashed.

A slightly more rational discussion from the left and right would have been far more beneficial for everyone. Nothing sells guns and gasoline like knee jerkers.

Redwing's picture
Redwing
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Jun. 21, 2012 4:12 am

Yep, those liberals are gonna' take your guns, so buy them now! Nothing sells like the jerks with jerking knees buying out the stores, like they did when the Black President was elected. Such a bunch of paranoid aholes! What I have seen is people who are finally being able to speak up about this crap. If it causes the idiots to run for their guns and buy out the store, call it an economic stimulus.

A slightly more rational discussion of guns would follow a pattern set by a fairly sane world outside the US on guns in civil society. All we have to do is suggest that military style, big magazine, rapid fire weapons are neither tools nor toys. They are not what ranchers or hunters need to get their jobs done. They are not what makes sport shooting sport. They are firearms porn, and I don't doubt that a bunch of masculinist fools feel very puffed up when they can spray away whomever they fantasize.

I can agree with Darlin' that there is a deep moral sickness in America today. Hedges diagnoses it as a culture of death. But, if it is about the breakdown of the family and the loss of community, then let's do some analysis of how this came about. To put it down to the 'secular Left' is stupid. When we look at what the religious are doing to embarass God and disgrace their churches, and when we look at the warmongers and banksters lie and cheat their way in their lusts for power and wealth, it must be time to blame the Left.

The only thing to blame the Left for is not being bold and vital enough to meet the Empire and stop it before it happened. Or, you can blame the Left for not being paranoid enough to anticipate how rabid and off the charts the GOPimps would go. After the blame game, when we need to pull together to get out of the ditch the GOPimps have driven us into, stop being pissed at having to be forgiven. If you will just get on with doing what we need to do, no blaming. Just don't keep believing that you were innocent when your shit stank up the place. We did not stop you. We were not persuasive to keep you from being able to screw up. That must make it our fault.

Oh, and Clinton goes along with a lot of your shit and now it is "bi-partisan." Please. Progressives have been sold out by the Centerists, and we know that. The Reagan Revolution let the South Rise and make it impossible to propose reality therapy after Vietnam when Morning in America brought a full load of nostalgia, sentimentality and naraccisism. Reagan was a great political Crack Dealer. By the time Dollar Bill comes around to balance the books, the welfare queen meme and "smaller government" were not to be questioned.

Clinton baptized "the economy" as the only political factor that matters. He could play their game better than they could, but it is still a losing game for democracy. Even a Southern White Guy Bubba scared the gun nuts. I didn't say the NRA didn't know how to sell guns.

What I did say is that people are not going to be intimidated by idiots anymore. There is something about the response to Sandy Hook that goes beyond the average ritual to which we have become numb. There are the drones too. Dead kids. Like that kid in the street in Vietnam that became "the picture." We have had macho insecurity up the ass this year, beginning with Treyvon. The consistent common factor in these incidents is that the shooter is a male, almost always a White male with decent levels of education.

I have always said that racism is about White and misogyny about Male. White Men are the problem, and having to live that out is a dilemma. White Pride is toxic, unlike pride in those stigmatized by not being White. Male Pride repeats that old patriarch line, "thank you God for not making me a woman." It is not about confidence and comfort in being a male, it is about having to prove superiority at the expense of demeaning others. Domination is cowardice.

Bring on that rational and balanced discussion. I have yet to get much of it from the Right.

drc2
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Apr. 26, 2012 11:15 am
Quote Redwing:Any rifle that remotely fits into some progressives version of an "assault rifle" is sold out at gunstores and the manufactures and importers will be making them 24/7 for a long time. .... Check your local government office. Mine has never seen such a demand for purchase permits and a backround check at a gunstore can take two hours or more. For those that can enter data online, the servers have crashed.
Redwing, you can gloat about booming gun and ammo sales, but consider more guns in more hands - probably inexperienced - only raises the probability, maybe infintessimal, that someone you know or love, gets shot. Keep in mind that no matter how armed, how skilled, how sharp, a concealed carrier is............they're always giving up the first 1 to 10? 20? 30? shots to the bad guy.

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al3
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Nobody is gloating. You are seeing the results of unnecessary panic on both sides of the issue. If I were speaking for the NRA, I would immediately offer any, and all, my services to work toward a reasonable solution. I would include mental health experts and hollywood filmmakers in the group as a lot of components helped create this environment.

Redwing's picture
Redwing
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Jun. 21, 2012 4:12 am
Quote Redwing:Magazines, which are reusable, never wear out..

That is news to me.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics operates in my world.

stuff's picture
stuff
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Nov. 24, 2012 3:59 pm
I can agree with Darlin' that there is a deep moral sickness in America today.

Or an infantile aversion to taxes.

Get out your checkbooks everybody and hire more school police.

stuff's picture
stuff
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Nov. 24, 2012 3:59 pm

Funny thing: the NRA video editors worked hard at cutting out the two protesters who interrupted Lapierre's monologue, on Friday. Watch the official NRA video at NRA.org, and you will see no evidence of any protests. The NRA is a lie. The NRA cannot even present a truthful account of its own so-called press conference, which wasn't much of a conference.

If the NRA manages to convince a substantial minority of schools to fortify, then I'm going to leave this country, and move anywhere else. Fortification of schools is the last straw for me. I don't want to live in a war zone.

There really is a point in time when one must give up and walk away.

=>PW

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peterwexler
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May. 16, 2010 2:16 pm

Cartoons of the Day- NRA Solutions

miksilvr
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Jul. 7, 2011 11:13 am

Why are we even talking about the NRA? Since the inception of the Republic firearms have been a part of American society. For years the gun laws were much more lax , there was NO security in schools and these types of massacres did not start happening until about 20 years ago. What we should be figuring out is what has CHANGED that has cause this to suddenly start to happen?

What has changed is the introduction of psychaitrty into our schools and institutions and their marketing and prescribing of anti-depressants - and there biggest market is our children. PLEASE watch this brief video produced by the Citizens Commission On Human Rights. We can't let these guys who are the real cause off the hook. http://www.cchr.org/videos/psychiatrys-prescription-for-violence.html

Guy Zino

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guyzino
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Dec. 22, 2012 1:01 pm

Maybe we need to hold big pharma and psychiatry responsible. There is certainly a lot of money for the blood sucking lawyers to go after.

Lanza was reportedly on the anti-psychotic drug FANAPT.

http://www.businessinsider.com/adam-lanza-taking-antipsychotic-fanapt-2012-12

darlinedarline1@aol.com's picture
darlinedarline1...
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Aug. 29, 2012 8:27 am

Darlinedarline1,

While psychiatric medications can and do help people with certain conditions, I must admit that there are doctors out there who are definitely "pill pushers," where the medication is "the" treatment, instead of being part of treatment.

One example of what I mean is that the condition ADHD is so frequently treated with "Riddlin" (sic), even though ADHD may produce frustration in the lives of parents, but in of itself does not produce destructive behavior.

However, Bipolarism and Schizophrenia do have the potential to produce destructive behaviors, even though that is not always the case. There are ethical questions concerning the treatment of those who might not want treatment, however.

To me, the problem is not with psychiatry as a whole, but with specific "pill pusher" doctors who think that medications are the be all and end all of treatment.

micahjr34
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Feb. 7, 2011 3:57 pm

My 83 year old father says that all kids have ritalin in their asses, it just needs to be stirred up occassionally. LOL

darlinedarline1@aol.com's picture
darlinedarline1...
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Aug. 29, 2012 8:27 am

A good case for generational change. The culture of whipass parenting may die out. Tough Love being the easy way to avoid dealing with real issues. Zero tolerance being about zero intelligence or willingness to give the 'offender' any position of respect.

Simple diagnoses, simple 'solution,' no need to think. I can see why this stuff appeals, but given that it does not work, maybe after awhile the charm might rub off.

drc2
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Apr. 26, 2012 11:15 am

Oh, so that was the problem with Lanza, his parent/s did not give him any respect or "any position of respect". Bullshit!

No, the problem is that most parents do not want to step up and take the responsibility of raising their children. They want a "doctor" to give the kid a pill to make him/her behave so they don't have to deal with it. I'd be willing to bet that it wasn't tough love that made Lanza (and others) unable to control his/their emotions and may be rebellious and antisocial.

I will agree that "zero tolerance" is about "zero intelligence" when a 6 year old boy is carted away from school for even drawing a picture of a gun (of course making paper dolls safer), or pointing his finger and shouting the word bang (this could have had serious consequences), or charged with sexual harassment for touching a fellow female student.

Political Correctness run amok will be the death of society.

darlinedarline1@aol.com's picture
darlinedarline1...
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Aug. 29, 2012 8:27 am
Quote darlinedarline1@aol.com:No, the problem is that most parents do not want to step up and take the responsibility of raising their children. They want a "doctor" to give the kid a pill to make him/her behave so they don't have to deal with it. I'd be willing to bet that it wasn't tough love that made Lanza (and others) unable to control his/their emotions and may be rebellious and antisocial.

Amen, sister.

I might add that too many negligent parents also expect schools and teachers to become surrogate parents for their children. Parental neglect is a huge problem in this society and, as we find out more about the facts, may have been a contributing factor in the Connecticut tragedy. While the mother may have been attentive and supportive of her child in many respects, I, for one, would like to know how her guns ended up in his hands.

stuff's picture
stuff
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Nov. 24, 2012 3:59 pm

Lawrence O’Donnell on Wayne LaPierre: “He makes sure that our serial killers are the best armed in the world.” VIDEO

miksilvr
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Jul. 7, 2011 11:13 am

Darlinedarline1,

As a person who does take psychiatric medication, I must advise you and everybody else to ask doctors what their personal philosophy of treatment is. If that doctor puts an emphasis of medication above any other form of treatment and practice, I suggest that you deal with that doctor cautiously. This is because drugs are useful as part of treatment, but as "the" treatment they can be dangerous. I once had a doctor that fell into the category of being a "pill pusher" and focused entirely on medication. It was a horrible experience...

Not only dealing with adults, but also with a child, I think that treatment for any type of medical condition must involve more things than just giving a drug and expecting all things to get better. It is disturbing to me to hear of parents giving a child a pill everyday, hoping that will solve most if not all problems. It won't...

micahjr34
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Feb. 7, 2011 3:57 pm

My granddaughter was diagnosed with ADD and prescribed concerta when she was 8 because of difficulty she was having learning in school. She was not disruptive, in fact she was the opposite, withdrawn. In 1 week the child was unable to stop crying uncontrollably. My son and I took her off the drug and a friend of mine recommended a local charter school. We went and interviewed with them as they would not accept everyone. The superintendent was not only a doctor of education, who had written several textbooks and teaching manuals he was doctor of divinity. He expained that different children learn in different ways. Some by vision, some audibly and some with by hands on experience and not just setting in a classroom and regugitating what the teacher taught to 19 other kids. Their method was almost like one-on-one with religious overtones. They had a strict dress code and code of conduct. Although she did not excel, her grades AND grade level improved. She was not college material, but now at 19 is working 2 jobs and seems very well adjusted.

My point is we rely to much on so-called professsionals and their medications for children with problems and do not want to take the time and necessary steps to get to the real issues. Lanza was on the anti-psychotic drug fanapt. THAT tells me a lot!

darlinedarline1@aol.com's picture
darlinedarline1...
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Aug. 29, 2012 8:27 am

Mix anti-psychotic drugs, with violent video games, and a mother that is into guns and prepping for the end of the world, and the explanation of what happened to him is much easier to understand and very hard to leglislate against.

Redwing's picture
Redwing
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Jun. 21, 2012 4:12 am

Darlin,' the same people who will go nuts about the breakdown of the family and what has happened to parenting with "liberals" now want to tell us that no laws against assault weapons will keep this incident from happening. Disconnect?

Look, if you want a sane discussion of anti-psychotic drugs and their domination of some mental health professionals, and if you want to talk about child-centered education, we would have a very informed mutual discussion. In my case, I am dealing with a brilliant kid who when he is not medicated goes to some very strange places and does not function well. I hope he will be able to learn how to handle life without these drugs, but it is a crap shoot that he might be able to. So, I hope he also might decide that they make his life possible if that is how he can deal with schizophrenia the best.

I have not been impressed by the mental health system, but I have found some very fine people workiing within it trying to do the best they can. I know people trying to do public education to avoid the stigmas we apply so easily. In this Sandy Hook case, for example, the NRA went to the mental health "monster" meme in an ugly and tragic distortion of who has actually been involved in mass killings. While we can see all such incidents as the acts of a mad man, where diagnosable mental illness is involved is actually rather minimal. Ideological fed rage and fantasy are not peculiar to the schizophrenic or manic. In fact, they may not be all that similar to how those conditions manifest at all.

The bare bones of this case that I have heard reported is that the Mom was struggling with a difficult child and trying to find ways to relate. The village is not there. For other reasons, she is a shooter and has guns for security. An NRA Mom. This is not about gun safety training or even about keeping the guns under lock and key. I will also stipulate that I don't consider it a breakdown in parenting or something more than lacking support services for herself and her son. That, and a culture of isolation, alienation and violence.

If you want to include among those pieces of pathology, the pedagogy of herding kids into jobs and driving them to compete instead of cooperate, I am with you fullly. It does not make the weapons issues any different, but the fact that emotionally shocking incidents seem to be required to get us to address insane gun policies with any rationality is still there when we appreciate that anecdotes are life stories and not statistics. Rather than try to explain why this kid did what he did in order to blame someone, I think we have to lessen the damage anyone with any deranged idea can do with guns.

Then, we can also try to appreciate what we have to learn from mental illness and what has not worked as well as return love to the classroom so no child is left out of "success." Love of learning is what drives education, and were we not forcing teachers to train herds of kids in the name of education, a lot of needless pain and damage could be avoided.

I hope your daughter has learned the humanity to transcend her 'education.' Lots of Love.

And D, try to find something warm and lovely, funny as hell, and relieving rather than frustrating. Be in on the joke for a change instead of feeling like the butt of it. Peace, and Joy because these are the real things we think are too good to be true. Our Bad!

drc2
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Apr. 26, 2012 11:15 am

Don't feel like the butt of anything, oh pontificating one. Just a reallist.

http://www.tatumba.com/blog/archives/10319

darlinedarline1@aol.com's picture
darlinedarline1...
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Aug. 29, 2012 8:27 am

The larger point, I think, is not psychotropic drugs but rather parental neglect.

Like schools, drugs (and video games and latch keys and unsupervised activities) have become substitutes for responsible parenting. It is obvious that poor, single parents have a harder time than affluent, two parent families in raising their children, but even in well-to-do homes, children ocassionally spend more time with nannies than with Mom and Dad.

Whatever the reason, the results are similar: poorly reared children with many emotional challenges. There is nothing liberal or conservative about that.

stuff's picture
stuff
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Nov. 24, 2012 3:59 pm
Quote Redwing:

Mix anti-psychotic drugs, with violent video games, and a mother that is into guns and prepping for the end of the world, and the explanation of what happened to him is much easier to understand and very hard to leglislate against.

Could we do a BETTER job of lesglating the use of weapons? Yes, I think we could but I'm in agreement with Redwing here on any kind of legislation would not prevent some of these tragedies. Self legislation is obviously the place to start. It starts in the head and in the heart.

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Bush_Wacker
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Jun. 25, 2011 6:53 am

This is a c&p from DU.

"LaPierre: NRA members stand behind armed school guards"

http://www.politico.com/blogs/politico-live/2012/12/lapierre-nra-members-stand-behind-call-for-guns-in-152700.html?hp=f2

This man is completely insane.

Let me preface this by saying, I have and do own guns. I believe in the Second Amendment. I personally have a concealed weapons permit for my state (and reciprocity states) and I sometimes carry a firearm. I am a military veteran and as a former journalist, I covered a great many stories that involved firearms. I am also currently a tactical EMT, meaning I am trained to go into armed conflict situations with SWAT Teams. At one time I was a crack shot, and am still pretty good although I don't really shoot all that much anymore. When I was in the military, one of the jobs I did was nuclear security. I have been a member of the NRA in the past but am not at the moment --nor will I be ever again.

I mention all of that to lay out my bona fides regarding this issue. All too often, gun issues are debated by people who have a vested (financial) interest or are completely ignorant of the real facts regarding firearms.

So, having said all that, there are a few facts that simply must be made clear. Guns kill people. Period. People own guns because they like guns. Nobody really needs a Harley Davidson motorcycle --but a lot of people own them because they like them, they like the image and the lifestyle. The same is true of Smith and Wesson or Sig Sauer firearms. People may hunt or live somewhere that a gun is a good thing to have. But few people need more than one or two and hardly anybody needs an assault weapon in civilian life. The fact is, people own guns because they like owning guns.

Guns kill people because people, both good and bad, use and misuse guns. To suggest anything else is simply ignorant. Guns kill on purpose and by accident. I have personally interviewed parents of children who died because of gun accidents. In every case, those parents truly believed they knew how to handle guns in the home. They were wrong.

I have also interviewed victims, family members and criminals involved in shootings both intentional and accidental. In almost every case they retroactively wished they had not had a gun available.If you have a gun in your home, you are 45 times (that's times, not percent) more likely to have a family member of friend killed by that gun than to ward off an intruder. The numbers are simple and staggering. If it is safety you want, keep guns out of homes. If you pull a gun on a criminal you are more likely to have the gun taken away from you than to actually use it.

Guns kill and fewer guns in a situation means most likely fewer people will die. If you think there is some idiotic, heroic, movie-hero answer to gun violence in schools, malls or movie theaters that is simply moronic. Adding more guns in any confined space means more bullets flying, meaning more people are likely to die.

Wayne LaPierre believes adding police officers to schools, meaning more guns to schools, will prevent a deranged homicidal/suicidal lunatic from paying a murderous visit. He is wrong.Insane people will not be deterred. People who do this kind of thing are expecting to die, likely want to die and most likely want to die in a blaze of glory. My fear is that adding well publicized police to schools will make them more attractive to gun toting lunatics who are going to see schools as a more attractive means to a suicidal end.

There were armed guards at Columbine High School that fateful day as well as Virginia Tech. At Fort Hood there was an army. They were useless and prevented not a single death. More importantly, it is not merely another gun or two in the building --"good guys" trying to kill "bad guys." It is training.

US Special forces operators spend years and the nation spends millions of dollars training each one to shoot with the precision needed for that kind of close quarters operation. It is actually absolutely insane to believe local police departments can replicate that kind of precision. That does not even take into account the difference in equipment and the necessary personal commitment. Even with all that, there are friendly fire incidents among elite special forces troops.

I do not believe turning schools into armed camps is the answer. I also believe no reasonable, thinking person would support this clearly desperate ploy by this cynical organization and its buffoonish leader. If we are going to spend money on anything related to schools preparing themselves, let's create emergency exit doors in every first floor classroom allowing children and teachers to get out quickly. Train teachers in reasonable evasion techniques that will actually protect the students.And, perhaps most importantly of all, let's stop listening to the NRA and begin having an adult conversation about this issue before another child dies at the hands of a gun toting monster.

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Phaedrus76
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Sep. 14, 2010 7:21 pm

Arming teachers doesn’t work12/22/2012 5:56pm by 74 Print

Conservatives’ decision to double down on their guns-save-lives rhetoric is not only callous and disrespectful in the wake of a national tragedy, it also cuts against evidence showing that putting more guns in schools (including arming teachers), and issuing more concealed-carry permits, will do more harm than good.

In a 2010 study, students voluntarily signed up for a gun safety course, and were provided with basic training and a faux-handgun (shooting plastic bullets filled with paint) that they would then keep on their person during class. At random times, an armed intruder would enter and open fire. The participants were charged with defending themselves; none were successful – not even the self-described gun enthusiast.

ABC News’ report on the study:

Even with more training than is typically required to obtain a concealed-carry permit (for added irony, the concealed-carry permit class I link to does not allow loaded firearms in its classroom), most of the participants in the study were unable to even get their gun out of their holster, let alone bring down the intruder.

Arming teachers, or students, simply doesn’t work in practice.

One key takeaway from the study was that in order for concealed-carriers to be effective in defending themselves and others they need to go through rigorous, police-style training every two weeks at a minimum. Anything short of that renders the weapon holder less than useless in a gunfight.

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Another C&P, this from americablog

Phaedrus76's picture
Phaedrus76
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Sep. 14, 2010 7:21 pm
This man is completely insane.

No argument here.

stuff's picture
stuff
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Nov. 24, 2012 3:59 pm

It's like the old cliche "the

"It's like the old cliche "the cat's out of the bag" so to speak. It would not matter if ALL guns were banned. The fact that they are already in existence and circulation precludes them from being regulated out of existence. It's like the "war on drugs", hows that going? It has certainly driven up the prices and made those that profit from them richer. The same with guns (and ammunition) it will only drive them underground and up in price. People that want them will still be able to get them. It is the breakdown of society's basic building blocks, like the family, and sick twisted values that have been foisted on our children for a generation now. Being held personally responsible and accountable is no longer acceptable by the communitarians. Guns are not the problem." -- darlinedarline1...

So what would be your suggestion for supporting the family and changing the twisted values?

Would you, like Jesus, kick the money changers out of the Temple to protect us all from corrupting the rest of us? Would you hold Jesus up as an example of how we should take personal responsability? (He paid for the rest of us, didn't he? That certainly promotes personal responsibility, doesn't it?) (He also was never married [unless you believe the Mormon account] and since he thought the end was near 2000 years ago he also didn't promote marriage for others.)

Maybe our "problem" is that we are all following the Jesus model too closely? Maybe that model has parts that you and I do not approve of?

DenisePf's picture
DenisePf
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Dec. 16, 2012 12:35 pm

[removed and improved (above now)]

DenisePf's picture
DenisePf
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Dec. 16, 2012 12:35 pm

To follow up on NRA's solution of police in the schools comes to about 6 billion dollars +/- and with 300 million guns that comes to about 18 dollars per gun per year. Call it a Kindergarden tax, or elementary license fee, or break it down into a charge per bullet like the pennies collected for unicef, the NRA fee coins for classes, pennies for police, pennies for principles, Kindergarden Kevlar sounds kind of catchy.

douglaslee's picture
douglaslee
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

You make many good points, but one you need to do more research. Fort Hood military base was classified as a "gun free zone" No one there could defend themselves against that terriorist attack because no one was allowed to carry a gun on that base. The assumption that our soldiers all carry loaded rifles or sidearms is a false one.

http://reason.com/archives/2009/11/11/the-folly-of-unilateral-disarm

I could make a good case for the crime rates going down in the United States at the same rate gun permits are going up. Figures lie, and liars figure. It is all who is creating the numbers.

Redwing's picture
Redwing
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Jun. 21, 2012 4:12 am

Newtown had a procedure in place that could have worked with refinement and without armed teachers. The buzz-in was good except for the glass door. Had the classrooms been metal doors that lock from inside they become a panic room. The panic room in Benghazi would have worked with a ventilation shaft. Emergency procedures work best with overwhelming redundancy. Removing the gunfree status doesn't require anyone to come armed, just the rumor that there might be someone that is. Maybe the substitute teacher that day is a former seal. The air marshals are never in uniform either.

douglaslee's picture
douglaslee
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Better 6 billion on our schools than 6 billion in the Afghanistan rat hole.

Didn't the president promise to get us the hell out of there?

stuff's picture
stuff
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Nov. 24, 2012 3:59 pm

When was the last time a politician ever kept his word? Let alone the liar in chief.

But, then again, all the pols are owned by the MIC and any cuts to military spending would bring cuts in their MIC campaign contributions and other retributions. Instead they cut medicaid and social security while continuing to rob the funds and tell us it is going broke. Poor and old people pose no threats to them.

darlinedarline1@aol.com's picture
darlinedarline1...
Joined:
Aug. 29, 2012 8:27 am
Quote darlinedarline1@aol.com:When was the last time a politician ever kept his word?

No argument here.

stuff's picture
stuff
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Nov. 24, 2012 3:59 pm

Well car accidents are called "Accidents" and these instances with armed intruders going into crowded places seem to be "On-Purposes"... so there's a difference...

Ryval's picture
Ryval
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Dec. 19, 2012 12:32 pm
Quote Redwing:

Would any of this have prevented the CT. attrocity?

Nothing, and no system, can prevent everything, and every instance. The truly dedicated will find a way, no doubt. But these instances could be lessened with some kind of oversight and regulation of who obtains, and is approved for, use of these weapons.

Klebold & Harris were not deranged or mentally unstable, just repeatedly emotionally abused and bullied. They obtained their weapons at gun shows. James Holmes in Aurora, CO bought his guns legally at Gander Mtn & Wal-Mart, after the appropriate mandated waiting period. So perhaps if the underage Columbine shooters had needed to show proof of license & insurance they would have sought other means, who's to say? Perhaps if Holmes had needed a background check through his healthcare provider and clean bill of mental health... would they have caught his instability? No idea...

But why isn't is worth a shot to lessen these instances and make it just a little more cumbersome to obtain these?

Ryval's picture
Ryval
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Dec. 19, 2012 12:32 pm

The NRA, like the Republican Party, is self-committing itself to the dustbin of history. Good riddance, I say.

stuff's picture
stuff
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Nov. 24, 2012 3:59 pm


70,000+ people failed gun background checks in 2010. Only 44 were prosecuted.




has made it tougher for states to get mental health records into gun background check system




Hunters know that owning a gun is a serious responsibility We need background checks for all gun sales




Before 1977 leadership used to focus on hunting, conservation and marksmanship



One month after , releases first-person shooter game via


We can support the Second Amendment while ensuring others aren’t deprived of their fundamental freedoms:

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lots more at https://twitter.com/DemandAPlan

miksilvr
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The other way we're subsidizing Walmart...

Most of us know how taxpayers subsidize Walmart's low wages with billions of dollars in Medicaid, food stamps, and other financial assistance for workers. But, did you know that we're also subsidizing the retail giant by paying the cost of their environmental destruction.

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