A new question for pro or anti abortion people, "can abortion be cure"??

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tayl44's picture

This question should be the issue to solve the abortion problem. "What would cure a woman of an abortion" ?  Like what would stop somebody from getting a cold?( an example of context) 


DdC's picture
Quote:"What would cure a

"What would cure a woman of an abortion"?

Legalize Hemp and,
Stop Liars From Starting Wars and Starving people...

Considering it was the 1980's before spousal rape was outlawed. I'm not very optimistic about being an abortion free nation any time soon. Until the woman has complete control over her body, including the right to say no. Pregnancies will occur and some will end in clinical abortions. Planned Parenthood prevents more abortions than OpResQ  ever dreamed of doing. What group is top target of the admitted liars against a woman having a choice? Like the hypocritical Ganjawar, the war on women is fabricated by lies, intimidation and back room bartering. To sum up the anti-choice movement just listen to the Westdonkey Blabtists...

GOPerversion, another Prohibition! On Women...

"90 percent of Planned Parenthood services are abortions."
~ Sen. Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.)

"No federal funding goes to abortions.
97 percent of Planned Parenthood's services are not abortions."
~ Cecile Richards, Planned Parenthood president

Kyl Walks Back Planned Parenthood Claim:
It 'Was Not Intended To Be A Factual Statement'.

Wall street's Spontaneous Abortionists
Tobacco and alcohol use by pregnant women has adverse effects on the fetus. Tobacco use causes an increase in SIDS and miscarriages. It is estimated that 3700 children die by the age of one month because of complications from the mother's smoking during pregnancy.

A Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) survey of 1313 pregnant women found that 3.5 percent admitted to having seven or more drinks a week or bingeing on five or more drinks at one setting within the previous month. Fetal alcohol syndrome is a leading cause of mental retardation.

Pesticide Exposure in Farm Families Linked to Spontaneous Abortion
The timing and types of pesticide exposures are critical determinants of reproductive outcomes, according to a recently published study by Canadian researchers. The study examined pesticide exposures based on recall by farm families and reported histories of spontaneous abortions among women living on the farms. The study found strong evidence that a woman's exposure to pesticides in the three months prior to conception or in the month of conception significantly increased her risk of spontaneous abortion.

Pro Life? Not even anti abortion...
Preconception exposure to the pesticides glyphosate, atrazine, carbaryl, and 2,4-D increased relative risk of spontaneous abortion by 20-40%. Risks were even higher for women exposed to pesticides at age 35 or older and for women exposed to pesticide mixtures.

Switching cotton fields to hemp fields would improve: the quality of our soil, the durability of our clothes, the safety of our ground source water, the quality of our air, and the preservation of forests cut for paper (not to mention saving hundreds of thousands of lives prematurely ended by disease caused by pollution)

These pesticides wash into streams and rivers, destroying eco-systems and poisoning human water supplies. Today the water supplies of many large cities are contaminated. Many of the vegetables we eat and clothes we wear contain pesticide residues. Hemp is a perfect sustainable raw material for thousands of products. Textiles, cosmetics, building materials, fuel and food can all be made from hemp.

Starving Babies and Illegal Food
In 1937, Ralph Loziers, general counsel of the National Institute of Oilseed Products, told the Congressional committee studying marijuana prohibition in 1937 that, "Hempseed… is used in all the Oriental nations and also in a part of Russia as food. It is grown in their fields and used as oatmeal. Millions of people every day are using hempseed in the Orient as food. They have been doing this for many generations, especially in periods of famine."

"We must think of the message it would send to our children if we saved millions of starving foreign kids with hempseed. It might gateway them into smoking crack. They might ask questions. They might find out about hemp clothing and rugged textiles for carpets and rugs free of chemical poisons hazardous to firemen and house fire victims. It would confuse them." DdC

Collateral Damage Abortions

Can you be pro-life, AND pro-war?
Modern industrial war, once unleashed, produces an instant Auschwitz for the unborn—that’s fact, not conjecture. Mass abortions are the necessary and one hundred per cent inevitable consequence of modern war. Morally, that which a person is certain will occur, if he or she makes a particular choice, represents a choice for which he or she is responsible before God. A person cannot morally claim he or she does not intend the abortions that are absolutely certain to take place, by claiming he or she only intends to preserve the mother’s bodily health or the health of the body politic. Health is being preserved at the cost of knowingly and willing killing in utero life. So, where is the Church’s pro-life voice for the voice-less children in the womb in Iraq, who are daily being chopped to pieces by military abortions? Or, is abortion by war the great exception to the inviolable right to life of the innocent child in utero? continued...


leighmf's picture
Abortion is not a disease.

Abortion is not a disease. But I wish someone would outlaw tattoos. I'm tired of seeing black devil horns peeking out over the top of a fifteen year old's thong which she sports above the hip line of her jeans.

D_NATURED's picture
Abortion is the cure for an

Abortion is the cure for an unwanted pregnancy. It's the only one there is.

The way you phrased the question implies there is an "abortion problem". The problem is not with abortions, the problem is with our perception of women. If people want to end all abortions, the laws will never work except to punish women after the fact. The way to end abortions is to end poverty, ignorance and the subjugation of women.

tayl44's picture
Leighmf, i`m thinking outside

Leighmf, i`m thinking outside the box. Abortion is a different kind of disease, but the effects are the same, emotional pain vs physical pain. D_NATURE, the emotional pain of abortion is the problem,just like any disease. If we can change the abortion debate from mother vs fetus to community vs disease, we can make progress in seeing the forest from the tree. If it take a village to raise a child, what are the reasons for preventing a child? The answer to that question would be a prime factor in the "cure for abortion". 

I presume you mean that women

I presume you mean that women would learn better use of birth control, not to use abortion as a form of birth control by choice?  I am all for taking out the stigma and empowering women's ability to "control" their fertility.  I am not going to blame any woman whose fertility slips out of her control who wants not to be pregnant or to have a child at that time in her life.  

The problem with abortion is the moralism imputed upon it far more than the "ignorance" or the rape culture that lead to unwanted pregnancies.  The legacy of patriarchal property rights to the "fruit of the womb" with women regarded as passive gestation locales for men's seed become fetus are behind the concern for "viability" before birth as more than a factor in the woman's decision.

And be clear.  Late term abortions in a stigma free and educated context would always be about something that had gone wrong late in the game, not about feckless convenience.

tay, the idea of abortion as a disease is sick.  Not your intention, but still sick.

leighmf wrote: Abortion is

leighmf wrote:

Abortion is not a disease. But I wish someone would outlaw tattoos. I'm tired of seeing black devil horns peeking out over the top of a fifteen year old's thong which she sports above the hip line of her jeans.

LOL!  Good one, Leigh.

Tayl, the supposed emotional pain of abortion is way overblown. Most women who have abortions get up and leave the clinic immediately after the abortion, walking out the door with deep feelings of gratitude and relief, and with a determination to look forward, not back. Sure, it's a serious decision, but a quick one in most cases.  This doesn't mean they are sluts or unfeeling sociopaths; it means they enjoy self-determination and the freedom of personhood.

D_NATURED's picture
Quote:The plain and simple

The plain and simple facts are-some women(outside of rape) fail to control their fertility.

I disagree that any woman can be said to have control over her fertility, with or without the pill and condoms, etc. Only with abortion as a legal option can she be said to have any control. Every  birth control method has a failure rate and women shouldn't be punished for the shortcomings of medical science.

You can't control fertility. You CAN control whether you allow a fetus to grow inside you until it is a threat to your future.

Tayl, I think I like where you're going with the disease being the woman's pain and not the fetus'. You must understand, and I know you do, that the woman's risk of death or pain or poverty or lost years of youth are of no consequence to the pro-life crowd. The woman is always at fault if she accidentally gets pregnant. Her pain-her disease- is not one they wish to treat. Instead, they prefer to treat their own pain at choosing to empathize with a freakin' zygote rather than an adult human.Her pain is the wages of sin. The fetus doesn't have sin until it pops out of her sin machine. Then, being a new sinner, it is no longer under the protection of the pro-lifers.

To call yourself "pro-life" is another way of saying anti-woman, it just works better in bumper sticker format.

You've gone from outside the

You've gone from outside the box to la-la land. Abortion as a disease? The plain and simple facts are-some women(outside of rape) fail to control their fertility. They get pregnant without really wanting to. Abortion is one of the choices available as a solution. Abortion should be a thoughtful and considered personal choice-not haphazard. It should be done earlier than later in the pregancy. It should not be viewed as a common form of birth control-a women should learn after the 1st one.

tayl44's picture
Dyno, it`s "la-la land" when

Dyno, it`s "la-la land" when you divide & conquer the mother and fetus.   Drc2, you`re right, the idea of a abortion as a disease is, "sick". But we live in a "sick culture", what else can you expect?  What`s the mortality rate of abortion,don`t all diseases have mortality rate?  D_NATURE, we`re in agreement, yes the women emotional state is the disease, which is cause by our culture laws.  Zenzoe, how can somebody who put their life at risk, cannot be "overblown with emotional pain"?   Our culture have a problem of seeing problems with immature eyes, that`s why so many problems seem unsolveable. It we can step back and view the bigger picture and ask the "why" question, instead of a "knee-jerk" reaction like a child, we can solve most of these problems. We had a thread, "When does life begin", can lead to a question, "When is life abnormal"? And "When life should end"? I look for answers thru "nature".

tay, despite some posts

tay, despite some posts where, as in this one, you pose an "outrageous" idea to mirror the outrage you see, the idea that we are culturally "immature" is worth your exploration.  Finding that bigger picture or more mature evaluation of the data is what matters.  I think you are wrestling with some important growth issues even if you are a bit hard to follow.

To put it in a simple frame, one can be a "healer" and seek restorative justice and grace rather than vengeance and an "eye for and eye."  Healers are attuned to ethical and moral reality as they join in the healing where the pain and damage are found.  Healers believe in a human nature other than dog eat dog.

When you think of what is natural, do not discount the reality and power of love to our humanity.  Do not allow that cynical temptation to give the shadows of death more power and reality than the light of life.

tayl44 wrote:  Zenzoe, how

tayl44 wrote:

 Zenzoe, how can somebody who put their life at risk, cannot be "overblown with emotional pain"?

Tayl, unless I'm reading you wrong, you seem to be misinformed about the risks of abortion. Take it from Wikipedia, if not from me: "Abortion, when induced in the developed world in accordance with local law, is among the safest procedures in medicine.[1]" Of course, naturally a woman or girl will have some anxiety, even regret, over her choice to have an abortion, but, as I've said, the idea that abortion is riskier than pregnancy & childbirth and causes deep emotional wounds in most women is nothing but propaganda put out by the extremists. But what DOES put women and girls in danger, what does threaten the mental and physical health of women, are the continuing efforts on the part of extremist legislators to restrict access to safe, legal abortion, or to render safe abortions effectively impossible to obtain. That's when the pain begins, not when abortion is legal, easily accessible and safe.

What I'd like to know is why it's important to anybody that women be "overblown with emotional pain" over their abortions. And, if women are not emotionally wounded by the safe, legal abortions they obtain, what does that tell you about the stigma of abortion?  Wouldn't the imposition of a stigma mean that those who oppose choice simply want to control women via shaming them unfairly and irrationally? If women are not ashamed of having had abortions, they'll be free to make their own decisions about their own lives and reproduction. I'm sure you see that too, Tayl. So, my question to anybody who opposes choice is this: do you want women to be free and equal persons, or not?

Tayl44 needs a talk with God.

Tayl44 needs a talk with God. Can you call a miscarriage an abortion from God? If so, God is the biggest abortionist there is. What about the emotional pain of a miscarriage-at least with an abortion the woman made the choice as opposed to a random miscarriage.

D_NATURED's picture
DynoDon wrote: Tayl44 needs a

DynoDon wrote:

Tayl44 needs a talk with God. Can you call a miscarriage an abortion from God? If so, God is the biggest abortionist there is. What about the emotional pain of a miscarriage-at least with an abortion the woman made the choice as opposed to a random miscarriage.

The difference is that, in the case of miscarriage, there is no stigma. The woman is sympathized with, as someone whose expected outcome (a baby) did not occur. In the case of abortion, however, there is the stigma of someone who didn't want a baby and made the choice not to have it. It is because she made a choice that is viewed as murder by an outspoken, ignorant and shamelessly misogynist segment of the population.

In my opinion, she shouldn't feel bad about the miscarriage because they happen all the time and there's no way to predict which pregnancies will fail and why. As for the abortion, she shouldn't feel bad in making that difficult choice because the difficulty is not in determining whether or not the idea of a new baby is appealing to the woman who chooses, it is a difficult choice because of all of the negative judgements that short-sighted authoritarians will make about her, if she does choose abortion. I say fuck 'em if they don't like it. The irony is really about how many of the pro-lifers would torture women to death for making the choice.

Tayl doesn't need to talk with god any more than he needs to send an e-mail to Vishnu. Abortions and fetuses are real and we can't pray them away. Tayl makes an excellent point that the problems with abortion are in our perception of it and the women who have them done. The whole idea of god, as an abortionist, is a symptom of the same crazy thinking that foces women to feel guilty for having to choose between their own lives and that of their uterine contents.

The abortion debate is really between those who would like to punish women for having sex and those who want to heal them and their lives.

tayl44's picture
Drc2, Zenzoe and Dyno

Drc2, Zenzoe and Dyno (D_NATURED, you see where i`m coming from and going) I will try and make clear my thread. I ask the question, "do we have a choice other than being 'anti or pro choice' in the abortion issue"? We have a culture that make us "pro or con", where does this come from? My answer would be the rulers of society,the 1%.  Why would they want us to think this way?  Be pro-gun or anti- gun, be pro-spending or anti-spending, be pro-healthcare or anti-healthcare, the only logical reason i can see is they want to avoid the "roots of the problems". Why do we need guns, Why don`t we have enough to spend, Why do we need healthcare ??? The 1% is using the "the best defense is offense", i use the same logic by saying, 'abortion is a disease' and avoiding the pro & con issue. The pro & con of a disease can move to "prevention" as the "best cure"! I think we all can agree with D_NATURED in #4 post on some ideas in avoiding the reasons for abortion? Putting the "why" in there with pro & con, we get to the root of the problem, this should apply to other issues. Remember just saying "no" on the war on drugs? Now we`re legalizing it, who win, the 1% or 99% ? If the question was ask, "Why do we need drugs"? Who do you think would be better off, the 1% or 99% ? I rest my case, with all due respect to all with their pro & con arguments with the "regressives". I think it`s time(life is too short) to go on offense with the "why" vs the pro & con and make some progress with the roots of the problems.       

I've had many discussions

I've had many discussions with you, Tayl, and so I know the 1% is your bugaboo. According to your worldview, no matter the issue, the 1% uses it to divide and conquer us. Only if we forget about our differences and focus on "solutions," which to you means blaming the 1%, can the "problem" have a "cure."

That makes as much sense as blaming the need for abortion on the "worldwide Jewish conspiracy." Whether the 1% has some sort of agenda with regard to the abortion issue does not invalidate the struggle against the foes of reproductive freedom for women, nor could it possibly explain all the forces that have joined to push back against abortion rights. Your 1% solution simply doesn't work. No issue is that simple.

Why do we need abortion? We need abortion because contraception doesn't always work, because sometimes contraception isn't always available, and because of human frailty. Whatever the 1% has in mind for us is irrelevant. Disempowering the 1% will not eliminate the need for abortion.

tayl44's picture
Zenzoe, yes we have been down

Zenzoe, yes we have been down this road before and i know how good you`re with words, so you know i`m going to say "you misunderstand my point".(half joke) History speak for itself about society ruling classes, conspiracys need not apply. And you made the point and i agree, the 1% didn`t create sexism. Sexism is abuse of the human condition and the 1% use it to enpower themselves. I think we agree on that point? Z, you say "why do we need abortion, because contraception doesn`t alway work and because of human frailty" I would ask the question, "why is contraceptive needed and why are people frail"?? My answer would be the 1%.  Because of economic inequality we have the oldest profession in prostitution, what would this world look like with no contraception/abortion for them? How much of a need of birth control would be needed with "economic equality"? What would be the comparative differences, 1% vs 99% ? Disempowering the 1% system of 99% abortion rate down to 1% will not eliminate abortion, but it will be a big "improvement"! Z, you know how i like to go to the root of problems and solutions. The 1% is the root of 99% humanity problems and public banking being the root of the solution to the 1%. You heard me before, "until i see better, i stand by my positions". For me the issues are that simply and what is more relevant to the 99% than the 1%, that would be "Freedom"! . Z, could you imagine where humanity was free to let nature make all the decisions?