Why a $9 Minimum Wage is a Bad Idea by TokenLibertarianGirl

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Short video (<3 minues) by Julie Borowski taking down the minimum wage.

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LysanderSpooner
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Minimum wage proponents forget that almost every Local, State, and Federal workers paycheck has some form if indexing to the minimum wage. Both curent workers as well as pensions. A small minimum wage increase would cost billions and billions in already unfunded workers pensions increases let alone what it would do to already cash strapped city and county budgets. I won't bother to mention the COLA increases.

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Redwing
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Jun. 21, 2012 5:12 am

And proponents of raising the minimum wage seem to be seeing the problem in a very compartmentalized, isolated way. One has to see the whole picture not just part of it. There's more than one way to solve the problem.

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captbebops
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The center for Economic and Policy Research says that this is a myth. We'll have to see on this. I haven't read their data and argument yet.

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Art
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Quote Art:

The center for Economic and Policy Research says that this is a myth. We'll have to see on this. I haven't read their data and argument yet.

Art,

Please explain to me how artifically raising prices (wages are the price of labor) will not cause employers (purchasers of labor) to buy less of it. What if someone's skills allow them to produce $8.50 in value for the employer? Why would they be hired at $9/hr? What if someone is willing to work for less than the government mandated minimum? Are you going to put them in prison?

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LysanderSpooner
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The Right likes to continually proclaim the "dignity" of hard work but contradict themselves with always fighting against a true living wage to reward that dignity. It's every citizens duty to work hard and long to be a true citizen but it's nobody's duty to pay them for it. The contradictions abound.

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Bush_Wacker
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Quote Redwing:

Minimum wage proponents forget that almost every Local, State, and Federal workers paycheck has some form if indexing to the minimum wage. Both curent workers as well as pensions. A small minimum wage increase would cost billions and billions in already unfunded workers pensions increases let alone what it would do to already cash strapped city and county budgets. I won't bother to mention the COLA increases.

They don't care about economics, morality or the law. The talking head proponents of having a minumum wage know what will happen. They are just relying on useful idiots who don't even understand basic economics. It really boils down to this: Should wages be determined voluntarily or through violence. Liberals and progressives prefer violence.

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LysanderSpooner
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Quote Bush_Wacker:

The Right likes to continually proclaim the "dignity" of hard work but contradict themselves with always fighting against a true living wage to reward that dignity. It's every citizens duty to work hard and long to be a true citizen but it's nobody's duty to pay them for it. The contradictions abound.

What is a "living wage"? Who said working hard is a citizen's duty? Who says people shouldn't be compensated for work? If you don't think people are making enough, why don't you start a charity to make up the difference? Instead of wringing your hands and begging politicians to do something they don't have the power to do, you could be making a difference.

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LysanderSpooner
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Quote LysanderSpooner:
Quote Art:

The center for Economic and Policy Research says that this is a myth. We'll have to see on this. I haven't read their data and argument yet.

Art,

Please explain to me how artifically raising prices (wages are the price of labor) will not cause employers (purchasers of labor) to buy less of it. What if someone's skills allow them to produce $8.50 in value for the employer? Why would they be hired at $9/hr? What if someone is willing to work for less than the government mandated minimum? Are you going to put them in prison?

That's an easy one really. Employers never purchase any more or any less labor than they absolutely need. Laying off workers due to a mandatory wage increase would mean less workers than they need to be most efficient and profitable. They always scream about it but they don't actually do it because it would cost them money. No matter what the wage structure is, companies will always strive to have the exact number of employees needed to run their business.

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Bush_Wacker
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Please explain to me how artifically raising prices (wages are the price of labor) will not cause employers (purchasers of labor) to buy less of it.

Thank you, Bush. That was going to be my answer. If a business is in business to do business, they really aren't going to have much of a choice whether to hire the employees they need to do that business. I think this is a pretty good theory. Beyond that, I'm not much interested in explaining the phenomenon. I'm mostly interested in observing what actually happens in real life. (Lack of intellectual curiosity, ya know)

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Art
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This Wiki article tells us that the "raising the MW causes unemployment" thing was orthodoxy until about 1990. Further studies indicate:

Using a variety of specifications of the employment and unemployment equations (using ordinary least squares vs. generalized least squares regression procedures, and linear vs. logarithmic specifications), they found that a 10 percent increase in the minimum wage caused a 1 percent decrease in teenage employment and no change in the teenage unemployment rate. The study also found a small, but statistically significant, increase in unemployment for adults aged 20–24.
So it looks like there is a correlation with raising the minimum wage and unemployment. So, I guess we decide that we have to balance the benefits of having all those minimum wage workers coming closer to earning a living wage against having 1% fewer teenagers with jobs and a teensy number adults, as well. Considering that the effect is strictly temporary, I think I know what I would vote for.

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Art
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

So all, what are your expectation of results by increasing the minimum wage?

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captbebops
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

The minimum wage needs to be a living wage, it's that simple.

Why pay a worker less than $9/hr to keep him or her in poverty and in need of greater assistance?

shockwave
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Nov. 13, 2012 12:14 am

I prefer to focus on fair trade policy, fair immigration policy, and taming executive compensation. Eliminate ridiculously warped trade policies, immigration policy that creates a surplus of low-skill workers, and excessive compensation at the top. If that fails, which it has thus far, I then support higher minimum wages.

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al3
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Legalize Cannabis Sativa, switch the source of global energy and the power of production from the 1% back to the People, and the collective wealth of the world will be redistributed through the free market back to the working class.

http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/

http://www.jackherer.com/thebook/chapter-nine/

http://books.google.com/books/about/Hemp_Lifeline_to_the_Future.html?id=0isIAAAACAAJ

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JTaylor
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Quote Redwing:

Minimum wage proponents forget that almost every Local, State, and Federal workers paycheck has some form if indexing to the minimum wage. Both curent workers as well as pensions. A small minimum wage increase would cost billions and billions in already unfunded workers pensions increases let alone what it would do to already cash strapped city and county budgets. I won't bother to mention the COLA increases.

Credible source??????

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Pierpont
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Feb. 29, 2012 2:19 pm

For those who prattle about "family values" to fail to see the correlates in social policies is pitiful. For those who call themselves Christian to reject the "widows and orphans, eunuchs and lepers" of our time is disgusting. "Minimum Wage" is a moral slippery slope if there ever was on. "Living Wage" begins to factor in the essential Human Factor that makes this a real world moral discussion rather than a recipe for slavery of the worst sort. We do not treat "Minimum Wage" as if we expected a worker to be able to live on it with full time work.

Those who try to justify the part-time students or job training value of lower than living wages, as well as those who claim that their people make enough in tips to cover the difference miss every point that matters. Real part-time chooses to make less than full-time. And, who should pay for job training? Is it not part of the overhead ot pay for learn on the job?

Who will decide on the living wage? WE, the PEOPLE. And, if we learn from the examples of what works, we will set a fairly high level of pay in order to make participation in economic power and decision making democratic. The ridiculous hyperbole argument needs not to apply here. We will not set CEO salaries as minimum wage. But what about those salaries? What justifies them? If you want to quibble about minimum or living wages, why not question the really absurd and criminal? I know, beating up on the poor is so much less painful than trying to get in a punch on the powerful.

drc2
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Apr. 26, 2012 12:15 pm

First, this same argument is used every time the MW issue comes up. Does anyone know if retail stores or fast food greetings restaurants are still in business? Yes? Oh so based on the argument that artificially high minimum wages reduce employment and harm the economy are false.
Second, most studies and every experiment shows higher MWs either has no negative effect, or increases jobs. More consumers with more money in their pocket spend more, more demand creates more supply, in order to increase supply employers hire more workers.
Third, the brilliant Julie misses that if it is a violent violation of liberty to increase the MW is it also a violent violation of liberty at $7, $5, or any level? The greatest violence is exploitation.
Fourth, a better outcome is found in raising the EITC. With this congress good luck.
Lastly, thanks Julie for putting a cute face on Hobbesian exploitation.

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Phaedrus76
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Sep. 14, 2010 8:21 pm

Minimum wage sets the bar for how much of society will rely on government financial aid. The higher the minimum wage is the more society depends on their own labor and the lower the minimum wage is the more society depends on government. The burden should be on the shoulders of private industry and capitalism to provide for citizens livelihood. Of course private industry doesn't want to pay for it, they would rather the government pick up the tab all the while bitching about the government picking up the tab.

"But if democracy is about translating public opinion into public policy, Americans are overdue for a raise. Increasing the minimum wage to $9 an hour and tying it to the cost of living will not, on its own, lift the country out of its economic doldrums. But it will definitely lift millions of Americans out of poverty, stimulate the economy, and create new jobs. It is the right thing to do both morally and economically."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peter-dreier/raising-the-minimum-wage-_b_2750336.html

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Lysander wrote:

Please explain to me how artifically raising prices (wages are the price of labor) will not cause employers (purchasers of labor) to buy less of it.

poly replies: The only criteria is....can a profit be made off of the worker. If a profit can be made from a $9 wage, they'll pay it. If a profit can't be made off of a $1 wage, they won't even hire someone for a dollar.

Evidently, you've never operated a business.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

.

polycarp2
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Quote LysanderSpooner:

Short video (<3 minues) by Julie Borowski taking down the minimum wage.

So... employers have not had a free ride off the backs of the working poor when the MW is not adjusted to inflation? If merely adjusted to inflation... that is NO extra value... the minimum wage today would be about $11.50. It's value has DEGRADED about 40% since 1968 and SOMEONE has grabbed that value. Yes business of course... but also we consumers. MW workers subsidize the economy but the cheap labor Right always wants to drive the working poor down more... then as we've seen here with at least one of our more Rabid Right posters, want to demonize them for being on government safety net programs. I'm sure the working poor would rather get that extra $6700 a year... and gee, might earn enough to pay taxes.

But in Libertarian Land... if the MW is bad.... then the same case can be made for a sub-minimum wage... which some of you might remember is what Reagan proposed. And the same can be said about a sub-sub-minimum wage. Sorry kid, I'd like to hire you for $4 an hour... but you've got no experience.... but I'll take a chance if someone would pay ME to hire them.

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Quote polycarp2:

Lysander wrote:

Please explain to me how artifically raising prices (wages are the price of labor) will not cause employers (purchasers of labor) to buy less of it.

poly replies: The only criteria is....can a profit be made off of the worker. If a profit can be made from a $9 wage, they'll pay it. If a profit can't be made off of a $1 wage, they won't even hire someone for a dollar.

Evidently, you've never operated a business.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

You're making my point for me. If you raise wages above the productivity of the worker, the employer won't hire him or her. You are advocating mandatory unemployment. Without MW laws, do you think wages will go to ZERO?

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Quote Pierpont:
Quote LysanderSpooner:

Short video (<3 minues) by Julie Borowski taking down the minimum wage.

So... employers have not had a free ride off the backs of the working poor when the MW is not adjusted to inflation? If merely adjusted to inflation... that is NO extra value... the minimum wage today would be about $11.50. It's value has DEGRADED about 40% since 1968 and SOMEONE has grabbed that value. Yes business of course... but also we consumers. MW workers subsidize the economy but the cheap labor Right always wants to drive the working poor down more... then as we've seen here with at least one of our more Rabid Right posters, want to demonize them for being on government safety net programs. I'm sure the working poor would rather get that extra $6700 a year... and gee, might earn enough to pay taxes.

But in Libertarian Land... if the MW is bad.... then the same case can be made for a sub-minimum wage... which some of you might remember is what Reagan proposed. And the same can be said about a sub-sub-minimum wage. Sorry kid, I'd like to hire you for $4 an hour... but you've got no experience.... but I'll take a chance if someone would pay ME to hire them.

I favor abolition of all price controls. MW falls under that category. Reagan was a big-government advocate. I am not a supporter of his policies.

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Raising the minimum wage will do nothing to help out the working poor.

As the minimum wage goes into effect the cost of every product will go up to compensate for the higher minimum wage which will put the minimum wage earner back where they started. If we pin minimum wage to inflation it will cause inflation to rise faster as the cost of labor goes up so do the cost of the products.

I can not remember who but some one on this board said the us GDP is enough for every family of four to make 160 thousand a year. Which is rough 40 k per person so why don't we tie minimum wage to the number of kids you have. The head of house would get a minimum of 40k regardless of education or hours worked, and than get an extra 40k for every kid regardless of work. So than we can have high school drop outs at McDonald's making 200k a year

firearm owner
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Jan. 18, 2013 9:52 am
Without MW laws, do you think wages will go to ZERO?
Of course not. Then, nobody would be willing to work for those wages. If your type can get their labor for $1.75 an hour, however, that's what they will pay, not a dime more, and they will feel like all is right with the world. Thank goodness 71% of all Americans don't think like you. fringe thinkers don't have much company.

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Art
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Quote Art:
Without MW laws, do you think wages will go to ZERO?
Of course not. Then, nobody would be willing to work for those wages. If your type can get their labor for $1.75 an hour, however, that's what they will pay, not a dime more, and they will feel like all is right with the world. Thank goodness 71% of all Americans don't think like you. fringe thinkers don't have much company.

71? I doubt there are more than 5% that agree with ALL of LS's economic nuttiness... and throw in his wanting to go back to the Articles Of Confederation... probably about 50,000 people in the nation.

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Pierpont
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Feb. 29, 2012 2:19 pm

You could raise the minimum wage and possibly get unforeseen consequences or lower the cost of living. Discussion here seems a bit fragmented. It's like just raising the minimum wage will solve all our problems. It won't. The real problem is how out-of-whack the US economy has become. It's about how large the gap has become between the least paid and the highest paid. Who the hell is worth $5000 a hour? And we now live in a global economy. Someone in a rural place in Africa can interact with us just as if they're next door due to the Internet.

Liberals are supposed to think and not be so "cause" oriented.

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captbebops
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Quote LysanderSpooner:
Quote Pierpont:

So... employers have not had a free ride off the backs of the working poor when the MW is not adjusted to inflation? If merely adjusted to inflation... that is NO extra value... the minimum wage today would be about $11.50. It's value has DEGRADED about 40% since 1968 and SOMEONE has grabbed that value. Yes business of course... but also we consumers. MW workers subsidize the economy but the cheap labor Right always wants to drive the working poor down more... then as we've seen here with at least one of our more Rabid Right posters, want to demonize them for being on government safety net programs. I'm sure the working poor would rather get that extra $6700 a year... and gee, might earn enough to pay taxes.

But in Libertarian Land... if the MW is bad.... then the same case can be made for a sub-minimum wage... which some of you might remember is what Reagan proposed. And the same can be said about a sub-sub-minimum wage. Sorry kid, I'd like to hire you for $4 an hour... but you've got no experience.... but I'll take a chance if someone would pay ME to hire them.

I favor abolition of all price controls. MW falls under that category. Reagan was a big-government advocate. I am not a supporter of his policies.

What the hell does your response have to do with what I wrote??? NOTHING!!!!!!!!!

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Pierpont
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Quote Art:
Without MW laws, do you think wages will go to ZERO?
Of course not. Then, nobody would be willing to work for those wages. If your type can get their labor for $1.75 an hour, however, that's what they will pay, not a dime more, and they will feel like all is right with the world. Thank goodness 71% of all Americans don't think like you. fringe thinkers don't have much company.

Workers would like to work for infinitely high wages and employers would like to pay zero for wages. What's stops them? Competition. If someone is underpaid, a smart employer will bid away their services by offering them more. If someone is overpaid, the business will be at a disadvantage with their competitors.

I didn't know that individual rights were subject to a certain percentage of approval.

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LysanderSpooner
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Quote Pierpont:
Quote Art:
Without MW laws, do you think wages will go to ZERO?
Of course not. Then, nobody would be willing to work for those wages. If your type can get their labor for $1.75 an hour, however, that's what they will pay, not a dime more, and they will feel like all is right with the world. Thank goodness 71% of all Americans don't think like you. fringe thinkers don't have much company.

71? I doubt there are more than 5% that agree with ALL of LS's economic nuttiness... and throw in his wanting to go back to the Articles Of Confederation... probably about 50,000 people in the nation.

I guess it's nuttiness to say that price controls lead to shortages and surpluses. It's basic economics. A minimum price, such as a minimum wage, leads to a surplus of labor, which we call unemployment. More is supplied than demanded.

A maximum price, i.e., a price ceiling, leads to shortages. More is demanded than supplied.

I do agree with you that about 5% of the country agrees with my libertarian principles. It's my job to convince people that liberty is the best way, not to mention the only moral way, to achieve peace and prosperity.

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LysanderSpooner
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Quote LysanderSpooner:Workers would like to work for infinitely high wages and employers would like to pay zero for wages. What's stops them? Competition. If someone is underpaid, a smart employer will bid away their services by offering them more. If someone is overpaid, the business will be at a disadvantage with their competitors.

I didn't know that individual rights were subject to a certain percentage of approval.

Ya ya... competition is some invisible force for economic justice. Problem is that it only elevates workers if there is a worker shortage... or workers are organized. Otherwise competition places a downward force on wages. And this is why powerful economic forces prefer to create conditions to insure there is worker insecurity. They use to be able to count on immigrants coming to the US. If that doesn't work they pushed for free trade so US workers would be undercut by cheap... maybe even slave labor abroad. But in Libertarian Land... engineering outcomes like elevating everyone's standard of living is "immoral" and all that matters is there is free choice. So what if organized capital has the built-in advantage to rig the system for themselves. They just "earned" that... right?

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Pierpont
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LysanderSpooner,

Are you sure that competition is the only factor in determining wages? Another factor is when a worker is desperate for a job and the employer knows it. If a worker is desperate, regardless of how good a worker is at their job, that employer could offer the worker a lower wage, knowing that they can use the employee's desperation as blackmail against them. I once heard a quote from a famous author that goes roughly (I forget the whole quote, so I will have to paraphrase...), A desperate worker will accept bad pay and conditions more readily than other workers.

An unethical employer will gladly pay a worker less if that employer knows that the worker has a family to feed, for example. It happens!

I put an extreme emphasis on that such an action would only be done by an unethical employer!

micahjr34
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Feb. 7, 2011 4:57 pm
An unethical employer will gladly pay a worker less if that employer knows that the worker has a family to feed, for example. It happens!

I put an extreme emphasis on that such an action would only be done by an unethical employer!

I hope we're not relying on the employer class to operate ethically of its own volition. The prime directive for many businesses is to maximize profit . . . period.

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Art
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Quote Art:

This Wiki article tells us that the "raising the MW causes unemployment" thing was orthodoxy until about 1990. Further studies indicate:

Using a variety of specifications of the employment and unemployment equations (using ordinary least squares vs. generalized least squares regression procedures, and linear vs. logarithmic specifications), they found that a 10 percent increase in the minimum wage caused a 1 percent decrease in teenage employment and no change in the teenage unemployment rate. The study also found a small, but statistically significant, increase in unemployment for adults aged 20–24.
So it looks like there is a correlation with raising the minimum wage and unemployment. So, I guess we decide that we have to balance the benefits of having all those minimum wage workers coming closer to earning a living wage against having 1% fewer teenagers with jobs and a teensy number adults, as well. Considering that the effect is strictly temporary, I think I know what I would vote for.

Welll said, except I will argue that the effect is not temporary but permanent. An increase in minimum wage is a two edged sword, great for those who keep their jobs, but not such a great deal for those who lose their jobs.

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Mauiman2
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Jul. 27, 2012 7:24 am

Can we please legalize Cannabis? Can we just get this one thing done? So many things will begin to work properly. The cost of living is kept artificially high for the sake of concentrated wealth simply by our choice of fossil fuels (corporate-provided, plus war) over renewable biomass hemp.

http://www.hempfarm.org/BillionDollarCrop.html

The DEA, FBI and local police agencies squander billions of dollars each year in a feeble pursuit to destroy one of our most useful natural resources, Cannabis Sativa, also known as both hemp and marijuana.

The system has been designed to favor the super-wealthy. Everything is currently conducted toward the goal of the rich getting richer at the expense of everyone and the environmental well-being of the planet. It has been this way, undoubtedly, since the end of World War II and the rise of the military-industrial complex.

http://taxpol.blogspot.com/2012/12/fortune-500-holding-trillions-offshore.html

The entire structure of the global economy has been sidetracked by the US-led world ban on Cannabis. There is no need to drill for oil or frack mountains for coal anymore, anywhere. Our agricultural technology has advanced to a state where we can produce all of our gasoline and electricity from abundant, legal, renewable Cannabis. The fossil fuels can stay miles underground where Nature intended.

The planet is choking. In 1916, the USDA reported that one acre of Cannabis hemp can produce four times more paper than an acre of trees. Cannabis matures every four months. Our forests take hundreds, even thousands of years, to become as we know them. The forests are dying for the sake of industrial profit and it doesn't have to be this way. Our burning of fossil fuels combined with rampant deforestation for paper and lumber, and including the buildup of non-biodegradable trash, has resulted in massive changes to the Earth's natural patterns.

We can grow Cannabis, legal and taxed, and provide all of our paper and building needs, and let the forests continue to grow and clean our atmosphere. And because Cannabis is such a tall, dense crop, it will help clean the environment, too.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17855/17855-h/17855-h.htm

Legalize this crop in all of its forms, and many seemingly unrelated issues will begin to correct themselves. World hunger will be reduced, food will become healthier, global warming will reverse, overall pollution will be diminished, medical costs will go down, funding for schools will go up, literacy rates will rise, drug use among teens will go down, and the immense wealth currently (artificially) tied up in the fossil fuel-military-banking-medical-prison-industrial complex will redirect back to the working class, increasing the standard of living for every human being on Earth.

And marijuana may cure cancer.

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/cam/cannabis/healthprofessional/page4

Can we please focus, as a nation, Red and Blue states alike, on getting this taken care of before the problems get even worse?

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JTaylor
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Mar. 19, 2012 2:04 pm

Another problem is that a $9 minimum wage in the SF Bay Area might not get you much but it might get you a lot in Toledo, Ohio. In the US the cost of living depends on where you live.

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captbebops
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Quote captbebops:

Another problem is that a $9 minimum wage in the SF Bay Area might not get you much but it might get you a lot in Toledo, Ohio. In the US the cost of living depends on where you live.

I suspect such considerations, while real, would be outside the purpose of having a MW even if it were adjusted to inflation. That might fall into the realm of where local business is forced to compete for workers with a higher than minimum wage... that is as long as the area doesn't have an abundance of unemployed to choose from. At least then the MW can provide a floor.

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Pierpont
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Feb. 29, 2012 2:19 pm
Quote Pierpont:

But in Libertarian Land... if the MW is bad.... then the same case can be made for a sub-minimum wage... which some of you might remember is what Reagan proposed. And the same can be said about a sub-sub-minimum wage. Sorry kid, I'd like to hire you for $4 an hour... but you've got no experience.... but I'll take a chance if someone would pay ME to hire them.

In my ignorance I was not aware that there IS in fact a sub-minimum wage for teens of $4.25 for the first 90 days of employment. There are other exempt employees...

http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/q-a.htm

So much for the video's claim an employer will have to pay full minimum wage to some know-nothing punk.

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Pierpont
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Feb. 29, 2012 2:19 pm
Quote LysanderSpooner:

It really boils down to this: Should wages be determined voluntarily or through violence. Liberals and progressives prefer violence.

Violence happens. Period. People form government to control the violence.

Al Franken on class warfare:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&add...

"In her book A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous Fourteenth Century, Barbara Tuchman writes about a peasant revolt in 1358 that began in the village of St. Leu and spread throughout the Oise Valley. At one estate, the serfs sacked the manor house, killed the knight, and roasted him on a spit in front of his wife and kids. Then, after ten or twelve peasants violated the lady, with the children still watching, they forced her to eat the roasted flesh of her dead husband and then killed her.

That is class warfare.

Arguing over the optimum marginal tax rate for the top one percent is not."

chilidog
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Thank you.

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Phaedrus76
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Sep. 14, 2010 8:21 pm

Quote drc2: For those who call themselves Christian to reject the "widows and orphans, eunuchs and lepers" of our time is disgusting.
Don’t forget deaf people. Seems TokenLibertarianGirl has deaf parents:

Quote TokenLibertarianGirl:My profession is a sign language interpreter. I learned American Sign Language (ASL) through my parents and extended family members who are Deaf. ASL is my first language and spoken English is my 2nd.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Interpretingnews/featured

Hope her parents, and by association, TokenLibertarianGirl herself, bootstrapped it and didn’t enjoy the suite of hard-won benefits the hearing impaired get from “big government,” because she also said:

Quote TokenLibertarianGirl:My mission is to expose hypocrisy wherever it is found. No exceptions.

https://www.facebook.com/JulieBorowski/info

Not to mention she seems to have a slight speech impediment, which she admits:

https://twitter.com/JulieBorowski/statuses/114387301177622528

Considering she seems to have conquered that pretty nicely (congrats, girl!).........but.....wonder if she benefited from expensive taxpayer-funded special ed for children with speech impediments in, maybe a public school? Jus’ saaaaaaaayin’.

No detailed bio anywhere on our little perky Miss-Koch, though, even though she seems otherwise eager to grow her profile out on the web…...

Inquiring minds want to know.

al3's picture
al3
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2013/02/the-minimum-wag...

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Phaedrus76
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Sep. 14, 2010 8:21 pm

How about we as a people stop allowing the Federal Reserve to dictate interest rates and create rampant inflation before we talk about raising the minimum wage to a figure a single mother can't live on in an urban area, let alone a big city like New York or Los Angeles. I don't understand why conservatives come out of the woodwork in support of employers, who already circumvent or curtail their own benefits programs and rob people of their hard-earned pensions and 401k's. Companies are not the victims of these policies, they create the necessity for them. There's a reason why fast food companies all pay their employees close to minimum wage, even though it's tiring, thankless, hard work. It's definitely not because McDonald's can't afford to pay their employees $11 an hour and give them benefits; It's because we don't have free market capitalism in this country. It's a race to the bottom.

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Ninja Vanish
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Feb. 26, 2013 1:11 am
Quote chilidog:
Quote LysanderSpooner:

It really boils down to this: Should wages be determined voluntarily or through violence. Liberals and progressives prefer violence.

Violence happens. Period. People form government to control the violence.

Al Franken on class warfare:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&add...

"In her book A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous Fourteenth Century, Barbara Tuchman writes about a peasant revolt in 1358 that began in the village of St. Leu and spread throughout the Oise Valley. At one estate, the serfs sacked the manor house, killed the knight, and roasted him on a spit in front of his wife and kids. Then, after ten or twelve peasants violated the lady, with the children still watching, they forced her to eat the roasted flesh of her dead husband and then killed her.

That is class warfare.

Arguing over the optimum marginal tax rate for the top one percent is not."

But the government is initiating violence against peaceful people who are entering into voluntary transactions.

Do you favor putting people who violate the minimum wage laws in prison? If you do, you are no different that the conservative police statist who rightfully criticize.

LysanderSpooner's picture
LysanderSpooner
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Pierpont:
Quote Pierpont:

But in Libertarian Land... if the MW is bad.... then the same case can be made for a sub-minimum wage... which some of you might remember is what Reagan proposed. And the same can be said about a sub-sub-minimum wage. Sorry kid, I'd like to hire you for $4 an hour... but you've got no experience.... but I'll take a chance if someone would pay ME to hire them.

In my ignorance I was not aware that there IS in fact a sub-minimum wage for teens of $4.25 for the first 90 days of employment. There are other exempt employees...

http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/q-a.htm

So much for the video's claim an employer will have to pay full minimum wage to some know-nothing punk.

What about adults? What happens after 90 days if employing the person is no longer advantageous to the employer because even with newly learned skills, the employee still doesn't produce over $9.00 in value?

LysanderSpooner's picture
LysanderSpooner
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

I am in favor of punishing all persons who violate all laws. Lawlessness in not an option.

Do you understand that the episode with the serfs and the knight was WASTE? The serfs later probably starved either because they did not have the knowledge CAPITAL to operate the plantation, or customers and vendors likely boycotted them (assuming the sheriff didn't hang them.) Or they migrated somewhere else and disrupted another community.

Waste is bad.

Prison for violating minimum wage? Just a couple of years ago I got a traffic ticket that ended up costing me over $500 (carpool lane - I had the passengers, but I entered crossing a double line.) That hurt, and I make way more than minimum wage. I thought about it, and I think, given the choice, I would choose to sit in a jail cell for one day, deliver the notice to my employer and lose a day's pay (not LA County jail, but one of those suburban drunk tanks that Robert Downey Jr. got to stay in.) Punishment should cost the government money, not raise money. And if I were making minimum wage I would probably sit in that jail cell for a week.

chilidog
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote firearm owner:Raising the minimum wage will do nothing to help out the working poor. As the minimum wage goes into effect the cost of every product will go up to compensate for the higher minimum wage which will put the minimum wage earner back where they started.

Have a credible source to back up what you're saying? God, look who I'm talking to... like you ever posted a credible source on anything.

So in FO's world, those getting the MW should SUBSIDIZE the profits and cheap prices to consumers through the theft of VALUE in the MW which is now about 40% less than its 1968 value. Of COURSE you believe that. You want the working poor held down so you can complain they're parasites... when in fact YOU are when you take advantage of those lower prices subsidized by MW earners.

BTW, business faces another market force to keep prices down such as through improved efficiencies. So why would this not work to keep prices down? Or are you also saying we should keep down the obscene salaries and bonuses in Wall Street because that increases inflation?

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Pierpont
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Feb. 29, 2012 2:19 pm
Quote LysanderSpooner:

What about adults? What happens after 90 days if employing the person is no longer advantageous to the employer because even with newly learned skills, the employee still doesn't produce over $9.00 in value?

No criticism of how your video got a key fact wrong... or deliberately tried to deceive us? Of course not.

Where does the MW law protect slackers? No one's ever lost a job because they could not keep up with fellow workers?

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Pierpont
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Feb. 29, 2012 2:19 pm

Chilidog wrote:

I am in favor of punishing all persons who violate all laws. Lawlessness in not an option.

poly replies: We'll probably imitate the new austerity laws of Greece and make it illegal to strike when we hit the austerity-driven pit. Either go to work at the reduced wages or go to jail. I expect law-abiding Americans will comply. Forced labor with so-called freedom is still better than forced labor behind bars.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

polycarp2
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Pierpont:
Quote LysanderSpooner:

What about adults? What happens after 90 days if employing the person is no longer advantageous to the employer because even with newly learned skills, the employee still doesn't produce over $9.00 in value?

No criticism of how your video got a key fact wrong... or deliberately tried to deceive us? Of course not.

Where does the MW law protect slackers? No one's ever lost a job because they could not keep up with fellow workers?

No deception. Any minimum wage above the market wage will cause unemployment. The $9 number is really irrelevant. You can set wages at whatever you want but you can't force employers to hire anyone. Unless you are a fascist and want government to run all businesses.

LysanderSpooner's picture
LysanderSpooner
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote polycarp2:

Chilidog wrote:

I am in favor of punishing all persons who violate all laws. Lawlessness in not an option.

poly replies: We'll probably imitate the new austerity laws of Greece and make it illegal to strike when we hit the austerity-driven pit. Either go to work at the reduced wages or go to jail. I expect law-abiding Americans will comply. Forced labor with so-called freedom is still better than forced labor behind bars.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

Greece has only cut a small amount out of their budget. Many other European countries actually have increased their budgets, even adjusted for inflation. I don't call that austerity. I'm for real austerity. The US gov't should cut at least 1.5 Trillion from this years budget.

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LysanderSpooner
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Who Should an Economy Serve?

The top one percent own half of all the world's assets. In stark contrast, the bottom fifty percent of the world owns less than one percent. According to the 2014 Global Wealth Report from Credit Suisse, global inequality has surged since the 2008 financial collapse. The report explains that while global wealth has more than doubled since the year 2000, the vast majority of overall growth has gone to those who were already wealthy.

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