Gun Rights, Protecting The Republic, and Insurgency: Is The NRA Is Digging Our Nation's Grave?

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We know the Framers of the Constitution intended the Constitution was to be protected by a system of checks and balances... but Hamilton asks in Federalist 28... what if something goes wrong?

It may safely be received as an axiom in our political system, that the State governments will, in all possible contingencies, afford complete security against invasions of the public liberty by the national authority. Projects of usurpation cannot be masked under pretenses so likely to escape the penetration of select bodies of men, as of the people at large. The legislatures will have better means of information. They can discover the danger at a distance; and possessing all the organs of civil power, and the confidence of the people, they can at once adopt a regular plan of opposition, in which they can combine all the resources of the community. They can readily communicate with each other in the different States, and unite their common forces for the protection of their common liberty.

Hamilton is saying the last resort in protecting the republican nature of the federal government lies with the states and their militia. But just because something was published doesn't mean there is any legal mechanism for this. Where was this idea ever written into actual law?

He also writes

The people, by throwing themselves into either scale, will infallibly make it preponderate. If their rights are invaded by either, they can make use of the other as the instrument of redress. How wise will it be in them by cherishing the union to preserve to themselves an advantage which can never be too highly prized!

If in such a battle, is a gun then a vote? Do you want just noble citizens with this vote... this power to restore the nobility of republican government? Or does anyone, be they criminal, drug lord, or sociopath, also have a right to this power?

After all... isn't that where in Hamilton's scenario the original threat to the government begins? With someone who's personal ambition was greater than their moral restraint or respect for republican government... and using the force of arms to impose their will on the nation?

So Gun Nuts... how does your grand theory of the Second work when you find your noble citizens are not just fighting an allegedly repressive government, but also armed criminals, drug lords, and sociopaths who see the conflict as an opportunity? They might even join the forces of repression.

It would SEEM logical for Gun Nuts who believe this Insurgency theory of the Second insist the NRA be more civicly responsible to protect the viability of the armed populace they claim might be necessary to restore government. They can do this by insuring sociopaths, criminals, and those with psychological problems don't have easy access to gun ownership. Yet that's what the NRA apparently wants when they vehemently oppose tightening up background checks. And in the process they threaten the viability of what they claim is the nation's last defense against tyranny.

Pierpont's picture
Pierpont
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Feb. 29, 2012 1:19 pm

Comments

Any way you phrase it you still do not understand the back ground check issue. It is not that gun owners what loose background checks so criminals can obtain guns. Criminals do not by their guns from licenses dealers there by avoiding back ground checks. They also buy them from other criminals so a universal check will not work either. I know this is pretty complicated stuff but not sure how else to phrase it so you might understand.

In any armed conflict the criminal element will come out to fight as well hoping to get a bigger slice of the pie for them selves. This situation would have to be dealt with as the conflict went on as well as after its completion. The criminaleleminte will request a vote in any form of government that is to be set up after the conflict is resolved. This does not mean you want them.there or to have a vote, however youmay need there help to get rid of the greater evil.

Again this is pretty complicated so I await your questions.

firearm owner
Joined:
Jan. 18, 2013 8:52 am
Quote firearm owner:Any way you phrase it you still do not understand the back ground check issue. It is not that gun owners what loose background checks so criminals can obtain guns. Criminals do not by their guns from licenses dealers there by avoiding back ground checks. They also buy them from other criminals so a universal check will not work either. I know this is pretty complicated stuff but not sure how else to phrase it so you might understand.
Gee Einstein... since you want to get rid of background checks entirely and to go back to the mail-order days of Lee Harvey Oswald being able to buy mail order... I think you're the last person that can understand my argument. But then your're a classic Gun Nut extremist... and my argument is aimed at gun owners who actually believe the nonsense the Second gives them some legal right to "restore" the Constitution through armed resistance... a constitution that says such uprisings will be put down.

Even if you were for background checks I see you are DELIBERATELY leaving out guns that can be legally purchased without background checks from UNLICENSED dealers or individuals at gun shows... or online. You know this to be true yet you're determined to cover this up... even with pathetic comically amusing arguments like if there is one licensed gun seller at a gun show... then background checks are being performed there. Ya, on his sales only.

The simple fact is a partial NICS system pushes those who want guns they'd be banned from having into the loopholes in that system. The NRA can pretend it's protecting gun hobbyists... but in reality it's providing an escape hatch for those who would be caught by NICS.

Bottom line is the NRA is for bad guys with guns getting more guns. A topic I raised earlier:
http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2013/03/does-nra-want-criminals-have-a...

But then what would you expect from a front group for gun manufacturers? A safer society means guns sales go DOWN. They, instead, want everyone armed. More guns is their "solution" to the problem with guns. I could understand this warped "logic" if it were a Monty Python skit... not from an organization that claims they are the final defenders of the Constitution... a claim with NO legal basis... but it they DO believe it... then they'd WANT TO CLOSE GUN LOOPHOLES to insure only patriotic types would have legal access to guns.

Pierpont's picture
Pierpont
Joined:
Feb. 29, 2012 1:19 pm
Quote Pierpont:
Quote firearm owner:Any way you phrase it you still do not understand the back ground check issue. It is not that gun owners what loose background checks so criminals can obtain guns. Criminals do not by their guns from licenses dealers there by avoiding back ground checks. They also buy them from other criminals so a universal check will not work either. I know this is pretty complicated stuff but not sure how else to phrase it so you might understand.
Gee Einstein... since you want to get rid of background checks entirely and to go back to the mail-order days of Lee Harvey Oswald being able to buy mail order... I think you're the last person that can understand my argument. But then your're a classic Gun Nut extremist... and my argument is aimed at gun owners who actually believe the nonsense the Second gives them some legal right to "restore" the Constitution through armed resistance... a constitution that says such uprisings will be put down.

Even if you were for background checks I see you are DELIBERATELY leaving out guns that can be legally purchased without background checks from UNLICENSED dealers or individuals at gun shows... or online. You know this to be true yet you're determined to cover this up... even with pathetic comically amusing arguments like if there is one licensed gun seller at a gun show... then background checks are being performed there. Ya, on his sales only.

The simple fact is a partial NICS system pushes those who want guns they'd be banned from having into the loopholes in that system. The NRA can pretend it's protecting gun hobbyists... but in reality it's providing an escape hatch for those who would be caught by NICS.

Bottom line is the NRA is for bad guys with guns getting more guns. A topic I raised earlier:
http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2013/03/does-nra-want-criminals-have-a...

But then what would you expect from a front group for gun manufacturers? A safer society means guns sales go DOWN. They, instead, want everyone armed. More guns is their "solution" to the problem with guns. I could understand this warped "logic" if it were a Monty Python skit... not from an organization that claims they are the final defenders of the Constitution... a claim with NO legal basis... but it they DO believe it... then they'd WANT TO CLOSE GUN LOOPHOLES to insure only patriotic types would have legal access to guns.

You mean violent crime goes down like in England where guns are all but illegal and their violent crime rate us four times as high as the u.s.

Closing all the loopholes will not stop criminals from obtaining fire arms some thing you just can not grasp. Look at illegal drugs, universally illegal yet readily available in ever part of the country

Also I addressed the armed conflict in your other thread. I stated that for the armed conflict to even be addressed it would be the last resort option of the vast majority of the poplulation say 70 or 80 percent range before it could be viable.

firearm owner
Joined:
Jan. 18, 2013 8:52 am

Agreed, there is nothing to the armed citizenry, tree of liberty 2nd 'justifications.' When four out of five are fed up enough to fight, nonviolence wins even better than actually 'fighting.' Therefor, we have no need to tolerate the civilian possession of military weapons. They stay on base too. Time to get tough on this "porn" in our video and visual entertainment. Giving up "gun culture" and quick and easy 'solutions' to problems in pop narratives is going to be hard.

The world we hold up to shield us from what we have wrought always has clearly defined causes and solutions to explain away what has happened. Maybe somebody thinks that guns will go away with gun control, I don't know. I would close the rest of the loopholes and make transfering gun ownership equal to selling or giving a car to another. Ownership and registration is a simple enough standard to protect the right to own one. I know, carjackers don't bother to register their stolen cars.

The analogy to the War on Drugs puts pathology with pathology, and is not an argument for health. Relationships of crime to gun ownership/registration, etc., generally do not reduce easily to simple proof. We do see a lot of people dying from gun-assissted death. Criminals may continue to find their sources for weapons, etc., but having more people packin' and afraid of each other is hardly how we are going to have any public safety. We have to stop Being Afraid in order to Be. Gun Culture's world of threats and enemies does not capture the truth in its imagery.

Gun Culture and gun ownership are not the same thing. Confronting Gun Culture does not have to mean that gun owners are NRA Evangels. Some really enjoy hunting and sports shooting. Good for them. Some may even have real personal protection needs, urban and rural alike. I just want to have the fascination with guns and the symbol of its power brought back down to earth. I want peace, love and understanding to have a better chance than at the OK Corral of mythology.

drc2
Joined:
Apr. 26, 2012 11:15 am
Quote firearm owner:
Quote Pierpont:Gee Einstein... since you want to get rid of background checks entirely and to go back to the mail-order days of Lee Harvey Oswald being able to buy mail order... I think you're the last person that can understand my argument. But then you're a classic Gun Nut extremist... and my argument is aimed at gun owners who actually believe the nonsense the Second gives them some legal right to "restore" the Constitution through armed resistance... a constitution that says such uprisings will be put down.

Even if you were for background checks I see you are DELIBERATELY leaving out guns that can be legally purchased without background checks from UNLICENSED dealers or individuals at gun shows... or online. You know this to be true yet you're determined to cover this up... even with pathetic comically amusing arguments like if there is one licensed gun seller at a gun show... then background checks are being performed there. Ya, on his sales only.

The simple fact is a partial NICS system pushes those who want guns they'd be banned from having into the loopholes in that system. The NRA can pretend it's protecting gun hobbyists... but in reality it's providing an escape hatch for those who would be caught by NICS.

Bottom line is the NRA is for bad guys with guns getting more guns. A topic I raised earlier:
http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2013/03/does-nra-want-criminals-have-a...

But then what would you expect from a front group for gun manufacturers? A safer society means guns sales go DOWN. They, instead, want everyone armed. More guns is their "solution" to the problem with guns. I could understand this warped "logic" if it were a Monty Python skit... not from an organization that claims they are the final defenders of the Constitution... a claim with NO legal basis... but it they DO believe it... then they'd WANT TO CLOSE GUN LOOPHOLES to insure only patriotic types would have legal access to guns.

You mean violent crime goes down like in England where guns are all but illegal and their violent crime rate us four times as high as the u.s.
There you go being a one variable simpleton again. There's more than one variable in crime rates than just gun ownership and you'd know that if you had an intellectually honest bone in your body. For instance if a single violent criminal is a repeat offender... what contribution do 3-strike laws have in putting such offenders away? What role does the economy play? And perhaps more crucially... what role do DEFINITIONS of crimes play? According to

http://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2013/01/12/fact-checking-ben-swann-...

....the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports defines a “violent crime” as one of four specific offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault.

The British Home Office, by contrast, has a substantially different definition of violent crime. The British definition includes all “crimes against the person,” including simple assaults, all robberies, and all “sexual offenses,” as opposed to the FBI, which only counts aggravated assaults and “forcible rapes.

When you look at how this changes the meaning of “violent crime,” it becomes clear how misleading it is to compare rates of violent crime in the US and the UK. You’re simply comparing two different sets of crimes. In 2009/10, for instance (annual data is from September to September), British police recorded 871,712 crimes against persons, 54,509 sexual offenses, and 75,101 robberies in England and Wales. Based on the 2010 population of 55.6 million, this gives a staggeringly high violent crime rate of 1,797 offenses per 100,00 people.

But of the 871,000 crimes against the person, less than half (401,000) involved any actual injury. The remainder were mostly crimes like simple assault without injury, harassment, “possession of an article with a blade or point,” and causing “public fear, alarm, or distress.” And of the 54,000 sexual offenses, only a quarter (15,000) were rapes. This makes it abundantly clear that the naive comparison of crime rates either wildly overstates the amount of violence in the UK or wildly understates it in the US.

Quote firearm owner:Closing all the loopholes will not stop criminals from obtaining fire arms some thing you just can not grasp.
RED HERRING ALERT!!!! As usual you're arguing against your own strawmen since I NEVER CLAIMED IT WOULD STOP ALL CRIMINALS. My point is that it WOULD make it harder for those banned in NICS from easily getting around that ban. You KNOW this is my position yet you continually play stupid. Why bother when you know you'll be exposed every time... that is you'd know if you could actually follow a discussion.

How many NICS banned sales have there already been? Something like 800,000? I posted the numbers in another thread. Ya, NICS does nothing. How many who KNOW they'll be blocked by NICS just go the gun show or private sale route? More effective bans might have stopped the Virginia Tech and Aurora shootings. But WTF do you care since you're on record being AGAINST any gun control at all which makes sense since I doubt you'd be able to get a gun or a CC permit if your state knew you as well as we do. What's up FO... your "enimes" creeping up on your bunker at that undisclosed location? Let me guess... you're pretending your position is more responsible? Ya, you probably are.

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Pierpont
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Feb. 29, 2012 1:19 pm
Quote Pierpont:How many NICS banned sales have there already been? Something like 800,000? I posted the numbers in another thread. Ya, NICS does nothing. How many who KNOW they'll be blocked by NICS just go the gun show or private sale route? More effective bans might have stopped the Virginia Tech and Aurora shootings. But WTF do you care since you're on record being AGAINST any gun control at all which makes sense since I doubt you'd be able to get a gun or a CC permit if your state knew you as well as we do.

Twice in the past two days I've been up against this bizarre argument by people who want NO controls over money or guns... yet criticize those who propose new laws to because those measures won't solve every problem. OK, but they would go a long way to solve SOME of the problems.

I can see this argument being made by those who are proposing stricter laws... but by those who don't favor any?

But if they were capable of making sense, they'd not have such irresponsible positions to begin with.

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Pierpont
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Feb. 29, 2012 1:19 pm
Quote Pierpont:
Quote firearm owner:
Quote Pierpont:Gee Einstein... since you want to get rid of background checks entirely and to go back to the mail-order days of Lee Harvey Oswald being able to buy mail order... I think you're the last person that can understand my argument. But then you're a classic Gun Nut extremist... and my argument is aimed at gun owners who actually believe the nonsense the Second gives them some legal right to "restore" the Constitution through armed resistance... a constitution that says such uprisings will be put down.bsp;

Even if you were for background checks I see you are DELIBERATELY leaving out guns that can be legally purchased without background checks from UNLICENSED dealers or individuals at gun shows... or online. You know this to be true yet you're determined to cover this up... even with pathetic comically amusing arguments like if there is one licensed gun seller at a gun show... then background checks are being performed there. Ya, on his sales only.

The simple fact is a partial NICS system pushes those who want guns they'd be banned from having into the loopholes in that system. The NRA can pretend it's protecting gun hobbyists... but in reality it's providing an escape hatch for those who would be caught by NICS.

Bottom line is the NRA is for bad guys with guns getting more guns. A topic I raised earlier:
http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2013/03/does-nra-want-criminals-have-a...

But then what would you expect from a front group for gun manufacturers? A safer society means guns sales go DOWN. They, instead, want everyone armed. More guns is their "solution" to the problem with guns. I could understand this warped "logic" if it were a Monty Python skit... not from an organization that claims they are the final defenders of the Constitution... a claim with NO legal basis... but it they DO believe it... then they'd WANT TO CLOSE GUN LOOPHOLES to insure only patriotic types would have legal access to guns.

You mean violent crime goes down like in England where guns are all but illegal and their violent crime rate us four times as high as the u.s.
There you go being a one variable simpleton again. There's more than one variable in crime rates than just gun ownership and you'd know that if you had an intellectually honest bone in your body. For instance if a single violent criminal is a repeat offender... what contribution do 3-strike laws have in putting such offenders away? What role does the economy play? And perhaps more crucially... what role do DEFINITIONS of crimes play? According to

http://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2013/01/12/fact-checking-ben-swann-...

....the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports defines a “violent crime” as one of four specific offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault.

The British Home Office, by contrast, has a substantially different definition of violent crime. The British definition includes all “crimes against the person,” including simple assaults, all robberies, and all “sexual offenses,” as opposed to the FBI, which only counts aggravated assaults and “forcible rapes.

When you look at how this changes the meaning of “violent crime,” it becomes clear how misleading it is to compare rates of violent crime in the US and the UK. You’re simply comparing two different sets of crimes. In 2009/10, for instance (annual data is from September to September), British police recorded 871,712 crimes against persons, 54,509 sexual offenses, and 75,101 robberies in England and Wales. Based on the 2010 population of 55.6 million, this gives a staggeringly high violent crime rate of 1,797 offenses per 100,00 people.

But of the 871,000 crimes against the person, less than half (401,000) involved any actual injury. The remainder were mostly crimes like simple assault without injury, harassment, “possession of an article with a blade or point,” and causing “public fear, alarm, or distress.” And of the 54,000 sexual offenses, only a quarter (15,000) were rapes. This makes it abundantly clear that the naive comparison of crime rates either wildly overstates the amount of violence in the UK or wildly understates it in the US.

Quote firearm owner:Closing all the loopholes will not stop criminals from obtaining fire arms some thing you just can not grasp.
RED HERRING ALERT!!!! As usual you're arguing against your own strawmen since I NEVER CLAIMED IT WOULD STOP ALL CRIMINALS. My point is that it WOULD make it harder for those banned in NICS from easily getting around that ban. You KNOW this is my position yet you continually play stupid. Why bother when you know you'll be exposed every time... that is you'd know if you could actually follow a discussion.

How many NICS banned sales have there already been? Something like 800,000? I posted the numbers in another thread. Ya, NICS does nothing. How many who KNOW they'll be blocked by NICS just go the gun show or private sale route? More effective bans might have stopped the Virginia Tech and Aurora shootings. But WTF do you care since you're on record being AGAINST any gun control at all which makes sense since I doubt you'd be able to get a gun or a CC permit if your state knew you as well as we do. What's up FO... your "enimes" creeping up on your bunker at that undisclosed location? Let me guess... you're pretending your position is more responsible? Ya, you probably are.

Closing non existent loopholes will do nothing to make it harder for criminals to obtain weapons. Criminals do not buy fire arms from gun stores,like I have said in the past but you fail to understand. The number of denied are not the ones we need to worry about since the vast majority are people who are denied for minor things that are clear up easily. Those people are not removed from the denied list in order to keep people like you happy that the government is trying dome thing. Criminals like drug users by their guns from car trunks not responsible citizens or gun stores.

As far as the one variable comment look at Chicago high bar for gun ownership high crime rate. This is because criminals will attack where they know people can't fight back. I know this is outside your logic realm but it might sink in.

My state or at least the people who train and issue the ccw's know me way better than you think you do. They are my friends I talk to them almost daily.

firearm owner
Joined:
Jan. 18, 2013 8:52 am
Quote firearm owner:Closing non existent loopholes will do nothing to make it harder for criminals to obtain weapons. Criminals do not buy fire arms from gun stores,like I have said in the past but you fail to understand.
Just because I don't believe your lies and distortions doesn't mean I don't understand. The so-called gun show loophole IS REAL... and you KNOW it's real. If it were not real then the NRA would not be fighting to keep it open.

Quote firearm owner:The number of denied are not the ones we need to worry about since the vast majority are people who are denied for minor things that are clear up easily.
More lies... I say lies BECAUSE I ALREADY POSTED THE HARD NUMBERS LAST APRIL. Back on 4-14 you made the false claim

"Like I have said a big part of those 800,000 sales were people with unpaid parking tickets oncd paid are able to purchase weapons again."

I ALREADY PROVED YOU WRONG AND YOU'RE BACK REPEATING THE LIES. Here AGAIN is the break down

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/reports/2012-operations-report/ima...

From http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/reports/2012-operations-report

Your posts here over the past 8 months prove you dismiss ALL facts that don't fit into your delusional little world.

Quote firearm owner:Those people are not removed from the denied list in order to keep people like you happy that the government is trying dome thing. Criminals like drug users by their guns from car trunks not responsible citizens or gun stores. As far as the one variable comment look at Chicago high bar for gun ownership high crime rate. This is because criminals will attack where they know people can't fight back. I know this is outside your logic realm but it might sink in. My state or at least the people who train and issue the ccw's know me way better than you think you do. They are my friends I talk to them almost daily.
Obviously they do NOT know you and if they ever read your irresponsible, irrational, paranoid, and hate filled posts here... you'd be declared a mental health risk.

So what happened to the UK? Oops... you swept that under the carpet real soon... of course without conceding anything. Hey... let's look at Japan's crime stats. They are a nation with few guns.

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Pierpont
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Feb. 29, 2012 1:19 pm
Quote Pierpont:
Quote firearm owner:Closing non existent loopholes will do nothing to make it harder for criminals to obtain weapons. Criminals do not buy fire arms from gun stores,like I have said in the past but you fail to understand.
Just because I don't believe your lies and distortions doesn't mean I don't understand. The so-called gun show loophole IS REAL... and you KNOW it's real. If it were not real then the NRA would not be fighting to keep it open.

Quote firearm owner:The number of denied are not the ones we need to worry about since the vast majority are people who are denied for minor things that are clear up easily.
More lies... I say lies BECAUSE I ALREADY POSTED THE HARD NUMBERS LAST APRIL. Back on 4-14 you made the false claim

"Like I have said a big part of those 800,000 sales were people with unpaid parking tickets oncd paid are able to purchase weapons again."

I ALREADY PROVED YOU WRONG AND YOU'RE BACK REPEATING THE LIES. Here AGAIN is the break down

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/reports/2012-operations-report/ima...

From http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/reports/2012-operations-report

Your posts here over the past 8 months prove you dismiss ALL facts that don't fit into your delusional little world.

Quote firearm owner:Those people are not removed from the denied list in order to keep people like you happy that the government is trying dome thing. Criminals like drug users by their guns from car trunks not responsible citizens or gun stores. As far as the one variable comment look at Chicago high bar for gun ownership high crime rate. This is because criminals will attack where they know people can't fight back. I know this is outside your logic realm but it might sink in. My state or at least the people who train and issue the ccw's know me way better than you think you do. They are my friends I talk to them almost daily.
Obviously they do NOT know you and if they ever read your irresponsible, irrational, paranoid, and hate filled posts here... you'd be declared a mental health risk.

So what happened to the UK? Oops... you swept that under the carpet real soon... of course without conceding anything. Hey... let's look at Japan's crime stats. They are a nation with few guns.

What happened to the UK their violent crime rate is 4 times as high as the u.s. are you to stupid to understand that fact. You tried to sweep it under the rug by saying they count violent crime differently than we do either way it is still higher.

The NRA is not fighting to keep the gun show loop hole open because it dies not exist. Private to private it is still illegal to sell weapons to a prohibited person. Doing so makes the seller a criminal as well. Post all the numbers you want it does not change the fact that there is no gun show loop hole changing the back ground check system will make it harder for law abiding citizens to buy guns and do nothing to stop criminals.

firearm owner
Joined:
Jan. 18, 2013 8:52 am
Quote firearm owner:

What happened to the UK their violent crime rate is 4 times as high as the u.s. are you to stupid to understand that fact. You tried to sweep it under the rug by saying they count violent crime differently than we do either way it is still higher.

No Einstein... that was some LIBERTARIAN'S objection to the stat... and if true OF COURSE DEFINITIONS MATTERS. It's like the debate over infant mortality. The US doesn't rank well but then we have a stricter definition than some other nations and we include more deaths. So to do an HONEST comparison... and I know honest is a word you have no use for... you have to compare the US to other nations with THE SAME STANDARDS. Oops, the US still doesn't do that well... but at least it was a fair comparison.

Quote firearm owner:The NRA is not fighting to keep the gun show loop hole open because it dies not exist. Private to private it is still illegal to sell weapons to a prohibited person. Doing so makes the seller a criminal as well.
ROTF... more lies from the forum's Liar 'n Chief. The loophole is for NICS BACKGROUND CHECKS.... AND YOU KNOW IT. As for the law... it's pretty empty if a private seller doesn't have to do a check. All you Gun Nuts wrap your selves in delusions that a hollow law with no enforcement is "proof" we have enough gun laws. That Ohio let you own guns is proof of that.

Quote firearm owner: Post all the numbers you want it does not change the fact that there is no gun show loop hole changing the back ground check system will make it harder for law abiding citizens to buy guns and do nothing to stop criminals.
So now you're running away from the numbers that PROVE your claims wrong... and trying to change the subject. We're all waiting for your to prove your claim the vast VAST majority of those 800,000 blocked sales to criminals/domestic violence offenders can be EASILY cleared up and they'll soon get their gun. PROVE IT!!!! Or retract. And what about that 1.8 MILLION adjudicated mentally ill who were stopped from getting a gun? And this is with INCOMPLETE data from many states.The TOTAL of blocked sales to date... 12-31-12 is a whopping 8,323,931.

All the current half-ass background check does is catch the stupid... the smarter ones who should be banned get around the system by going to gun shows where they can buy with impunity with the NRA's blessing... or they buy guns off the streets.

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Pierpont
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Feb. 29, 2012 1:19 pm

According to a major investigation by the ATF back in 2000 called Following The Gun....

http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/downloads/pdf/Following_the_Gun%...

here were the sources of guns diverted to the illegal market in order. Ah gee... gun shows are number #2 on the list. How can that be since FO has given us his assurance there's no problem with gun shows.

Corrupt FFLs as major traffickers.

Although FFLs were involved in under 10 percent of the trafficking investigations, they were associated with the largest number of diverted firearms – over 40,000 guns, nearly half of the total number of trafficked firearms documented during the two-year period. The mean number of trafficked guns involved in any case in which an FFL figured was over 350. When an FFL was acting as the sole trafficker in the investigation, or working with an unlicensed dealer, the mean number of guns per investigation rose to over 550. Clearly, FFLs’ access to large numbers of firearms makes them a particular threat to public safety when they fail to comply with the law. Investigations focused on retail gun stores, pawnshops, and residential FFLs. The 133 investigations of FFLs revealed a variety of violations, including failure to keep required records, transfers to prohibited persons, offenses involving National Firearms Act weapons, making false entries in record books, and conducting illegal out-of-state transfers

Gun shows.

Gun shows were a major trafficking channel, involving the second highest number of trafficked guns per investigation (more than 130), and associated with approximately 26,000 illegally diverted firearms. The investigations involved both licensed and unlicensed sellers at gun shows.

Straw purchasers.

Straw purchasing was the most common channel in trafficking investigations. Almost half of all the trafficking investigations involved straw purchasers. Therefore, although the average number of firearms trafficked per straw purchase investigation was relatively small, 37 firearms, there were nearly 26,000 firearms associated with these investigations.

Unlicensed sellers.

Unlicensed sellers were a focus of about a fifth of the trafficking investigations, and involved an average of about 75 guns per investigation and almost 23,000 guns. Unlicensed sellers range from individuals who knowingly sell guns to criminals from their personal collections to interstate gun runners buying guns to sell to gangs and drug organizations.

Firearms theft.

Firearms theft is an important source of trafficked firearms. Firearms stolen from FFLs, residences, and common carriers were involved in over a quarter of the trafficking investigations. Investigations involving firearms stolen from residences and federally licensed firearms dealers were associated with over 9,000 trafficked firearms. There were a handful of investigations involving thefts of firearms from common carriers, but such thefts may involve a large number of firearms. ATF is proposing a regulation that would require FFLs to report guns missing in shipment.


The numbers aren't a national average or estimate... but those involved in the investigations that made up this report.

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Pierpont
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Feb. 29, 2012 1:19 pm
Quote Pierpont:
Quote firearm owner: Post all the numbers you want it does not change the fact that there is no gun show loop hole changing the back ground check system will make it harder for law abiding citizens to buy guns and do nothing to stop criminals.
So now you're running away from the numbers that PROVE your claims wrong... and trying to change the subject. We're all waiting for your to prove your claim the vast VAST majority of those 800,000 blocked sales to criminals/domestic violence offenders can be EASILY cleared up and they'll soon get their gun. PROVE IT!!!! Or retract. And what about that 1.8 MILLION adjudicated mentally ill who were stopped from getting a gun? And this is with INCOMPLETE data from many states.The TOTAL of blocked sales to date... 12-31-12 is a whopping 8,323,931.

All the current half-ass background check does is catch the stupid... the smarter ones who should be banned get around the system by going to gun shows where they can buy with impunity with the NRA's blessing... or they buy guns off the streets.

Still waiting for FO to explain how a law that's already stopped some 800,000 criminals and some 1.8 million adjudicated mentally ill people from purchasing a gun should not be expanded to cover more gun sales because it "will do nothing to stop criminals". This objection MIGHT make sense of the current NICS system caught NO ONE since the late 90's. But obviously the numbers PROVE the system can work... and WOULD work better if the loopholes were closed and states better complied with providing mental health records to the system.

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Pierpont
Joined:
Feb. 29, 2012 1:19 pm
Quote Pierpont:
Quote Pierpont:
Quote firearm owner: Post all the numbers you want it does not change the fact that there is no gun show loop hole changing the back ground check system will make it harder for law abiding citizens to buy guns and do nothing to stop criminals.
So now you're running away from the numbers that PROVE your claims wrong... and trying to change the subject. We're all waiting for your to prove your claim the vast VAST majority of those 800,000 blocked sales to criminals/domestic violence offenders can be EASILY cleared up and they'll soon get their gun. PROVE IT!!!! Or retract. And what about that 1.8 MILLION adjudicated mentally ill who were stopped from getting a gun? And this is with INCOMPLETE data from many states.The TOTAL of blocked sales to date... 12-31-12 is a whopping 8,323,931.

All the current half-ass background check does is catch the stupid... the smarter ones who should be banned get around the system by going to gun shows where they can buy with impunity with the NRA's blessing... or they buy guns off the streets.

Still waiting for FO to explain how a law that's already stopped some 800,000 criminals and some 1.8 million adjudicated mentally ill people from purchasing a gun should not be expanded to cover more gun sales because it "will do nothing to stop criminals". This objection MIGHT make sense of the current NICS system caught NO ONE since the late 90's. But obviously the numbers PROVE the system can work... and WOULD work better if the loopholes were closed and states better complied with providing mental health records to the system.

Still waiting for you to show me numbers of background checks preformed on guns sold out of the trunk of a car or during a robbery where the gun has been stolen. Expanding the nav ground checks will not stop those situations it will make it harder for to buy a weapon, while effecting no criminals. If background checks and gun control worked Chicago would be safe.

Adding mental health records will be huge invasion of privacy, while only stopping people who see a mental health professional who is already required by law to report people who are a danger to themselves or others. Sounds like a law looking for a problem.

firearm owner
Joined:
Jan. 18, 2013 8:52 am
Quote firearm owner:
Quote Pierpont:
Quote Pierpont:
Quote firearm owner: Post all the numbers you want it does not change the fact that there is no gun show loop hole changing the back ground check system will make it harder for law abiding citizens to buy guns and do nothing to stop criminals.
So now you're running away from the numbers that PROVE your claims wrong... and trying to change the subject. We're all waiting for your to prove your claim the vast VAST majority of those 800,000 blocked sales to criminals/domestic violence offenders can be EASILY cleared up and they'll soon get their gun. PROVE IT!!!! Or retract. And what about that 1.8 MILLION adjudicated mentally ill who were stopped from getting a gun? And this is with INCOMPLETE data from many states.The TOTAL of blocked sales to date... 12-31-12 is a whopping 8,323,931.

All the current half-ass background check does is catch the stupid... the smarter ones who should be banned get around the system by going to gun shows where they can buy with impunity with the NRA's blessing... or they buy guns off the streets.

Still waiting for FO to explain how a law that's already stopped some 800,000 criminals and some 1.8 million adjudicated mentally ill people from purchasing a gun should not be expanded to cover more gun sales because it "will do nothing to stop criminals". This objection MIGHT make sense of the current NICS system caught NO ONE since the late 90's. But obviously the numbers PROVE the system can work... and WOULD work better if the loopholes were closed and states better complied with providing mental health records to the system.

Still waiting for you to show me numbers of background checks preformed on guns sold out of the trunk of a car or during a robbery where the gun has been stolen. Expanding the nav ground checks will not stop those situations it will make it harder for to buy a weapon, while effecting no criminals. If background checks and gun control worked Chicago would be safe. Adding mental health records will be huge invasion of privacy, while only stopping people who see a mental health professional who is already required by law to report people who are a danger to themselves or others. Sounds like a law looking for a problem.

Moving the goal post even AGAIN? Of course you all... it's all you do. When proven wrong on something, you ignore it and like some 3 year old throw out some new reason why you should have that cookie.

Gee Einstein... NO ONE SAID that expanding NICS background checks to gun shows would stop EVERY illegal gun sale... did they???? You claimed this would stop NO illegal gun sales. It was a baseless claim since we KNOW... deny it as you may, that the existing system already stopped 800,000 sales to those with a criminal background... NOT people with overdue parking tickets as you claimed. Ever plan to retract that lie? Didn't think so. And that's your only trump card to play... to lie claiming these check would stop NO sales to criminals so why bother.

As for Chicago... your claim proves NOTHING since someone can buy a handgun in an adjacent town and walk 100' and be in Chicago. GUNS EASILY CROSS TOWN BORDERS just as they easily cross state borders. You KNOW that but then Gun Nuts are incapable of truthful debates and check their brains at the door. And we DO know from the research already done that those states with tighter gun laws tend to have less gun crime... and much of what it does have can be traced to illegal guns from other states.

As for MH laws... they MUST be expanded. Crazies fly under the radar... and even those who get treatment... their therapists aren't always mandated reporters. How would the privacy issue be dealt with? Simple... don't include the reason in the NICS database... so it's not on the denial. Therefore neither the federal government nor the deal knows the reason. Let the person denied take it up with their state. This might have stopped the Virginia Tech and Aurora killings... not that you care. Innocent deaths are of no concern to Gun Nuts. It's the price of their invented "freedom".

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Pierpont
Joined:
Feb. 29, 2012 1:19 pm
Quote Pierpont:We're all waiting for your to prove your claim the vast VAST majority of those 800,000 blocked sales to criminals/domestic violence offenders can be EASILY cleared up and they'll soon get their gun. PROVE IT!!!! Or retract. And what about that 1.8 MILLION adjudicated mentally ill who were stopped from getting a gun? And this is with INCOMPLETE data from many states.The TOTAL of blocked sales to date... 12-31-12 is a whopping 8,323,931.
Still waiting for you to prove his claim. But no one expects you to. We know all you'll do is run from your own claims when the evidence proves you wrong... you'll never concede that you're wrong, and that you'll be back making the same false claim again in a few months.

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Pierpont
Joined:
Feb. 29, 2012 1:19 pm
Quote Pierpont:
Quote Pierpont:We're all waiting for your to prove your claim the vast VAST majority of those 800,000 blocked sales to criminals/domestic violence offenders can be EASILY cleared up and they'll soon get their gun. PROVE IT!!!! Or retract. And what about that 1.8 MILLION adjudicated mentally ill who were stopped from getting a gun? And this is with INCOMPLETE data from many states.The TOTAL of blocked sales to date... 12-31-12 is a whopping 8,323,931.
Still waiting for you to prove his claim. But no one expects you to. We know all you'll do is run from your own claims when the evidence proves you wrong... you'll never concede that you're wrong, and that you'll be back making the same false claim again in a few months.

you and i both know that they do not keep those records because it would scare the life out of people with small brains much like yourself. those numbers are denies only they do not update if the person is cleared of the issue and sold the fire arm. but this will not matter to you, you will claim no proof and move on with your fragil ego seemingly intact.

now where is your proof that expanding back ground checks will stop gun sales out of trunks of cars or between two criminals?

firearm owner
Joined:
Jan. 18, 2013 8:52 am
Quote firearm owner:
Quote Pierpont:
Quote Pierpont:We're all waiting for your to prove your claim the vast VAST majority of those 800,000 blocked sales to criminals/domestic violence offenders can be EASILY cleared up and they'll soon get their gun. PROVE IT!!!! Or retract. And what about that 1.8 MILLION adjudicated mentally ill who were stopped from getting a gun? And this is with INCOMPLETE data from many states.The TOTAL of blocked sales to date... 12-31-12 is a whopping 8,323,931.
Still waiting for you to prove his claim. But no one expects you to. We know all you'll do is run from your own claims when the evidence proves you wrong... you'll never concede that you're wrong, and that you'll be back making the same false claim again in a few months.

you and i both know that they do not keep those records because it would scare the life out of people with small brains much like yourself. those numbers are denies only they do not update if the person is cleared of the issue and sold the fire arm. but this will not matter to you, you will claim no proof and move on with your fragil ego seemingly intact.

now where is your proof that expanding back ground checks will stop gun sales out of trunks of cars or between two criminals?

There you go again... debating your own straw man and pretending it's something I said. I've been quite clear that extending NICS will NOT stop all illegal gun sales. If you actually could READ what others said and understand it... instead of twisting their words to suit your purposes... you'd make less of a fool of yourself. Here's what I wrote in post 15

Gee Einstein... NO ONE SAID that expanding NICS background checks to gun shows would stop EVERY illegal gun sale... did they???? You claimed this would stop NO illegal gun sales. It was a baseless claim since we KNOW... deny it as you may, that the existing system already stopped 800,000 sales to those with a criminal background... NOT people with overdue parking tickets as you claimed. Ever plan to retract that lie? Didn't think so. And that's your only trump card to play... to lie claiming these check would stop NO sales to criminals so why bother.

What's amusing is WTF do you care since you're on record being AGAINST any background checks. What I've said is extending the NICS system will close a major loophole in the system... and since the first part of the system has blocked sales to 800,000 criminals... covering gun shows will catch more.

As for the NICS process... I've led you to water but I can't expect you to actually read anything about the NICS appeal process. You're too goddamn lazy to do that. The numbers I've quoted are denials MINUS successful appeals.

So... why not try and deal with reality for a change. Do YOU intend to prove YOUR claim repeated claim that those 800,000 denied sales were merely for minor offenses... and are "easily cleared up". How many years do we have to wait for you to back up YOUR claims?

So thanks for proving me correct again: Still waiting for you to prove his claim. But no one expects you to. We know all you'll do is run from your own claims when the evidence proves you wrong... you'll never concede that you're wrong, and that you'll be back making the same false claim again in a few months.

Pierpont's picture
Pierpont
Joined:
Feb. 29, 2012 1:19 pm
Quote Pierpont:
Quote firearm owner:
Quote Pierpont:
Quote Pierpont:We're all waiting for your to prove your claim the vast VAST majority of those 800,000 blocked sales to criminals/domestic violence offenders can be EASILY cleared up and they'll soon get their gun. PROVE IT!!!! Or retract. And what about that 1.8 MILLION adjudicated mentally ill who were stopped from getting a gun? And this is with INCOMPLETE data from many states.The TOTAL of blocked sales to date... 12-31-12 is a whopping 8,323,931.
Still waiting for you to prove his claim. But no one expects you to. We know all you'll do is run from your own claims when the evidence proves you wrong... you'll never concede that you're wrong, and that you'll be back making the same false claim again in a few months.

you and i both know that they do not keep those records because it would scare the life out of people with small brains much like yourself. those numbers are denies only they do not update if the person is cleared of the issue and sold the fire arm. but this will not matter to you, you will claim no proof and move on with your fragil ego seemingly intact.

now where is your proof that expanding back ground checks will stop gun sales out of trunks of cars or between two criminals?

There you go again... debating your own straw man and pretending it's something I said. I've been quclear that extending NICS will NOT stop all illegal gun sales. If you actually could READ what others said and understand it... instead of twisting their words to suit your purposes... you'd make less of a fool of yourself. Here's what I wrote in post 15

Gee Einstein... NO ONE SAID that expanding NICS background checks to gun shows would stop EVERY illegal gun sale... did they???? You claimed this would stop NO illegal gun sales. It was a baseless claim since we KNOW... deny it as you may, that the existing system already stopped 800,000 sales to those with a criminal background... NOT people with overdue parking tickets as you claimed. Ever plan to retract that lie? Didn't think so. And that's your only trump card to play... to lie claiming these check would stop NO sales to criminals so why bother.

What's amusing is WTF do you care since you're on record being AGAINST any background checks. What I've said is extending the NICS system will close a major loophole in the system... and since the first part of the system has blocked sales to 800,000 criminals... covering gun shows will catch more.

As for the NICS process... I've led you to water but I can't expect you to actually read anything about the NICS appeal process. You're too goddamn lazy to do that. The numbers I've quoted are denials MINUS successful appeals.

So... why not try and deal with reality for a change. Do YOU intend to prove YOUR claim repeated claim that those 800,000 denied sales were merely for minor offenses... and are "easily cleared up". How many years do we have to wait for you to back up YOUR claims?

So thanks for proving me correct again: Still waiting for you to prove his claim. But no one expects you to. We know all you'll do is run from your own claims when the evidence proves you wrong... you'll never concede that you're wrong, and that you'll be back making the same false claim again in a few months.

Successful appeals don't count if you go down to the court house and pay your parking ticket or clear up a bench warrent. Than go and buy the gun you tried to buy earlier, but this is beyond your intellect.

The problem is you keep asking for proof for something you know has no documentation or does not have proof like prove that god exists.

firearm owner
Joined:
Jan. 18, 2013 8:52 am
Quote firearm owner:Successful appeals don't count if you go down to the court house and pay your parking ticket or clear up a bench warrent. Than go and buy the gun you tried to buy earlier, but this is beyond your intellect. The problem is you keep asking for proof for something you know has no documentation or does not have proof like prove that god exists.
Thanks AGAIN for proving me correct. I repeatedly showed you where you could get the hard NICS numbers... and instead of trying to understand them, you prefer to make an arse of yourself AGAIN. Those 800,000 blocked sales to criminals WERE NOT CLEARED UP ON APPEAL. In fact there are very FEW appeals... and I'VE POSTED THE NUMBERS BEFORE:

Here's a post from last APRIL: http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2013/04/nra-may-have-won-temporary-vic...

In 2009, for example, the appeal rate to the FBI was a paltry 1.1% with 21% appealing and a 23% reversal rate/

Here are the numbers AGAIN... 6,083,428 applications... 67324 denials.... 14138 appeals.... 3251 successful appeals out of 6,083248... or ONE out of 1871 applications. THIS is what you claim is the vast majority of those total 800k NICS denials being easily cleared up?

Source: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/bjs/grants/234173.pdf

The problem here isn't the numbers... it's that you're again acting like some 3 year old determined to dismiss ALL hard facts that disprove your claims. As always... the problem isn't with reality... it's with your contempt for it. Which is why you never have ANY proof of your claims... all you do is make even another baseless claim as "proof" for your last baseless claim.

As I've said... all you do is ignore any data that threatens you, then months later make the same empty claims.

This matter of NICS denied sales is CLOSED. You're wrong and its time you admitted it. Or is that too threatening for our pathetic little Leatherneck? Let me guess... in Leatherneck Land... reality doesn't matter... only who has the guns.

Pierpont's picture
Pierpont
Joined:
Feb. 29, 2012 1:19 pm
Quote Pierpont:
Quote firearm owner:Successful appeals don't count if you go down to the court house and pay your parking ticket or clear up a bench warrent. Than go and buy the gun you tried to buy earlier, but this is beyond your intellect. The problem is you keep asking for proof for something you know has no documentation or does not have proof like prove that god exists.
Thanks AGAIN for proving me correct. I repeatedly showed you where you could get the hard NICS numbers... and instead of trying to understand them, you prefer to make an arse of yourself AGAIN. Those 800,000 blocked sales to criminals WERE NOT CLEARED UP ON APPEAL. In fact there are very FEW appeals... and I'VE POSTED THE NUMBERS BEFORE:

Here's a post from last APRIL: http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2013/04/nra-may-have-won-temporary-vic...

In 2009, for example, the appeal rate to the FBI was a paltry 1.1% with 21% appealing and a 23% reversal rate/

Here are the numbers AGAIN... 6,083,428 applications... 67324 denials.... 14138 appeals.... 3251 successful appeals out of 6,083248... or ONE out of 1871 applications. THIS is what you claim is the vast majority of those total 800k NICS denials being easily cleared up?

Source: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/bjs/grants/234173.pdf

The problem here isn't the numbers... it's that you're again acting like some 3 year old determined to dismiss ALL hard facts that disprove your claims. As always... the problem isn't with reality... it's with your contempt for it. Which is why you never have ANY proof of your claims... all you do is make even another baseless claim as "proof" for your last baseless claim.

As I've said... all you do is ignore any data that threatens you, then months later make the same empty claims.

This matter of NICS denied sales is CLOSED. You're wrong and its time you admitted it. Or is that too threatening for our pathetic little Leatherneck? Let me guess... in Leatherneck Land... reality doesn't matter... only who has the guns.

Again minor denies that are cleared up easily are not appeals. These transactions are two seperate transactions no appeal no removal of the denial.

Example. I go to the gun store they have me fill out the background check form. They call it in as transaction number 1234567 I am denied for bench warrent unpaid parking tickets. I go pay parking tickets. Two months later I go buy gun. Background check run again transaction number 23456789 goes through first transaction still on books shows 800,000 denials. Reality much lower number. Now go run home and hide in your closet

firearm owner
Joined:
Jan. 18, 2013 8:52 am
Quote firearm owner:Again minor denies that are cleared up easily are not appeals. These transactions are two seperate transactions no appeal no removal of the denial. Example. I go to the gun store they have me fill out the background check form. They call it in as transaction number 1234567 I am denied for bench warrent unpaid parking tickets. I go pay parking tickets. Two months later I go buy gun. Background check run again transaction number 23456789 goes through first transaction still on books shows 800,000 denials. Reality much lower number. Now go run home and hide in your closet
PROVE IT! Show where in the system people are denied for unpaid parking tickets!!!!

Show us where in the FBI or NICS stats! HERE THEY ARE AGAIN

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/reports/2012-operations-report/ima...

Here AGAIN is the full report:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/reports/2012-operations-report/nic...

I ALREADY GAVE YOU THE HARD NUMBERS FOR THE TYPES OF DENIALS.... and they are NOT for unpaid parking tickets.

The problem is, as always, you really do think your crap smells like chocolate. This matter is settled. You are wrong... as usual. Time to learn how to deal with reality little boy.

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Pierpont
Joined:
Feb. 29, 2012 1:19 pm

I think I know where FO gets his "info".

At the very beginning of the NISC system, BACK IN 1996, the GAO found some local jurisdictions did not standardize their denials and some included unpaid parking tickets. Even then the denial rate for NICS was only 4.3%. NOT, as FO claims the vast majority of denials are for such minor offenses and are "easily cleared up". They are not and the denial rate is now 1.1%.

The GAO found then "The results of GAO’s survey are not projectable to
the universe of denials nationwide. In 15 of the jurisdictions with more
detailed records, GAO found that the denial rate varied from jurisdiction to
jurisdiction, in part, because law enforcement officials did not use
common or standard criteria in making denials. For instance, regarding
criminal history disqualifiers, some jurisdictions made denials only if the
records showed a felony conviction or pending indictment, but other
jurisdictions also denied on the basis of outstanding misdemeanor
warrants, including warrants for unpaid traffic tickets."

But the GAO admits its work is flawed, because NICS is NOT YET FULLY IMPLEMENTED:

In its written comments on a draft of this report, DOJ provided updated
information on its efforts to develop databases for identifying nonfelony
classes of ineligible purchasers—fugitives, unlawful drug users or addicts,
individuals adjudicated mentally defective or committed, persons
dishonorably discharged, illegal aliens, and persons who have renounced
U.S. citizenship. Our work did not specifically address the status of efforts
to develop these databases, which will be important components of the
national instant background check system under the phase II permanent
provisions (effective November 30, 1998) of Brady.

http://gao.gov/products/GGD-96-22

No doubt in the minds of Gun Nuts... truth doesn't matter. And we see such attempts to deceive here http://gunowners.org/congress02122013.htm a 2013 report that STILL pretends that the breaking in problems of NICS from 17 YEARS AGO still exist.

Pierpont's picture
Pierpont
Joined:
Feb. 29, 2012 1:19 pm
Quote Pierpont:
Quote firearm owner:Again minor denies that are cleared up easily are not appeals. These transactions are two seperate transactions no appeal no removal of the denial. Example. I go to the gun store they have me fill out the background check form. They call it in as transaction number 1234567 I am denied for bench warrent unpaid parking tickets. I go pay parking tickets. Two months later I go buy gun. Background check run again transaction number 23456789 goes through first transaction still on books shows 800,000 denials. Reality much lower number. Now go run home and hide in your closet
PROVE IT! Show where in the system people are denied for unpaid parking tickets!!!!

Show us where in the FBI or NICS stats! HERE THEY ARE AGAIN

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjisreports/2012-operations-report/image/fed...

Here AGAIN is the full report:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/reports/2012-operations-report/nic...

I ALREADY GAVE YOU THE HARD NUMBERS FOR THE TYPES OF DENIALS.... and they are NOT for unpaid parking tickets.

The problem is, as always, you really do think your crap smells like chocolate. This matter is settled. You are wrong... as usual. Time to learn how to deal with reality little boy.

Because it does not say unpaid parking tickets in there data does not mean it is not there but let me try and explain it again. Unpaid parking tickets result in a bench warrant. A bench warrant is an arrest warrant for the person involved. This makes them a fugitive from justice. Unpaid parking tickets or any other bench warrant can be cleared up without an appeal but being so black and white you will not understand this or admit it is happening.

Might need to take your own advice there pierpont, the world does not revolve around your beliefs no mater how often you throw yourtemper tantrum.

firearm owner
Joined:
Jan. 18, 2013 8:52 am
Quote firearm owner:
Quote Pierpont:
Quote firearm owner:Again minor denies that are cleared up easily are not appeals. These transactions are two seperate transactions no appeal no removal of the denial. Example. I go to the gun store they have me fill out the background check form. They call it in as transaction number 1234567 I am denied for bench warrent unpaid parking tickets. I go pay parking tickets. Two months later I go buy gun. Background check run again transaction number 23456789 goes through first transaction still on books shows 800,000 denials. Reality much lower number. Now go run home and hide in your closet
PROVE IT! Show where in the system people are denied for unpaid parking tickets!!!!

Show us where in the FBI or NICS stats! HERE THEY ARE AGAIN

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjisreports/2012-operations-report/image/fed...

Here AGAIN is the full report:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/reports/2012-operations-report/nic...

I ALREADY GAVE YOU THE HARD NUMBERS FOR THE TYPES OF DENIALS.... and they are NOT for unpaid parking tickets.

The problem is, as always, you really do think your crap smells like chocolate. This matter is settled. You are wrong... as usual. Time to learn how to deal with reality little boy.

Because it does not say unpaid parking tickets in there data does not mean it is not there but let me try and explain it again. Unpaid parking tickets result in a bench warrant. A bench warrant is an arrest warrant for the person involved. This makes them a fugitive from justice. Unpaid parking tickets or any other bench warrant can be cleared up without an appeal but being so black and white you will not understand this or admit it is happening. Might need to take your own advice there pierpont, the world does not revolve around your beliefs no mater how often you throw yourtemper tantrum.

TRANSLATION: So you have NO PROOF of what you claim to be true... that the VAST MAJORITY of NICS denials are for minor offenses and can be simply cleared up... and you prefer your delusions to the hard numbers at the FBI that PROVE YOU WRONG.

Why didn't you just say so instead of repeating a disproven claim over and over?

I've just about had it with your idiocy. Unless you start to back up what you claim with credible sources instead of pulling crap out of your butt and passing it off as if handed down on a slab... there's no point pissing away another minute of my life trying to make sense to a RR'tard who has no use for reality. FO FO...

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Pierpont
Joined:
Feb. 29, 2012 1:19 pm

Just another nail in the coffin of the empty and already discredited claims made by the resident Village Idiot that the vast majority of denied gun sales are for minor reasons and soon cleared up.

This is the 10th year review of NICS... the instant background check http://www.jrsa.org/events/conference/presentations-10/Ronald_Frandsen.p... It includes a more detailed break down of both federal and state denials by reason as of 2008. Fugitives From Justice... the category FO claims are made up of minor offenses easily cleared up, make up just 5.5% of the federal denials, 6.8% of the state denials, and 1.3% of the local denials. This is hardly the vast majority of denials FO claims are fugitives with unpaid parking tickets...

Even if ALL these fugitives from justice are just for unpaid parking tickets... a laughable claim, they represent a tiny number of total denials. And if they WERE cleared up... then they would no longer be in the denied category. FOs claims, are, as usual... total bullsh*t.

All FO's accusations against NICS are just smokescreens. He puts no time or energy into his responses. He has no facts nor credible sources. His tactic is to just throw up an endless barrage of claims he can never prove, and to deny all facts that are inconvenient. He even denies that 800,000 denied gun sales to date are for SERIOUS offenses. He doesn't care if the FBI states about 700,000 denied sales were for criminals convicted of a crime punishable for more than one year.... a domestic violence conviction, or had a restraining order for domestic violence. soon pointless to deal with the issues because their irrationality and lack of intellectual integrity, prevents them from the ordinary give and take that makes up serious discussion.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/reports/2012-operations-report/nic...

When dealing with those with self-sabotaged intellects... it's more revealing to ignore their smokescreens and look for the common theme and with FO he has but one agenda. Like some spoiled 3 year old he just wants what he wants... and that is NO background checks for ANY gun purchase. To justify his childish views he MUST discredit ANY sort of background check so he can then claim it's pointless have any at all.

But if one wants the perfect example of the irrational citizen the Right wants to make even MORE irrational... we need look no further that FO.

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Pierpont
Joined:
Feb. 29, 2012 1:19 pm

The 15 month old shot in New Orleans, was she a threat? Stand your ground might not apply. Just because we kill by gunfire 20 times the number of other OECD countries doesn't mean there is a problem. It's that freedom thing, freedom to kill at will, the 2nd amendment says so.

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douglaslee
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote Pierpont:

Just another nail in the coffin of the empty and already discredited claims made by the resident Village Idiot that the vast majority of denied gun sales are for minor reasons and soon cleared up.

This is the 10th year review of NICS... the instant background check http://www.jrsa.org/events/conference/presentations-10/Ronald_Frandsen.p... It includes a more detailed break down of both federal and state denials by reason as of 2008. Fugitives From Justice... the category FO claims are made up of minor offenses easily cleared up, make up just 5.5% of the federal denials, 6.8% of the state denials, and 1.3% of the local denials. This is hardly the vast majority of denials FO claims are fugitives with unpaid parking tickets...

Even if ALL these fugitives from justice are just for unpaid parking tickets... a laughable claim, they represent a tiny number of total denials. And if they WERE cleared up... then they would no longer be in the denied category. FOs claims, are, as usual... total bullsh*t.

All FO's accusations against NICS are just smokescreens. He puts no time or energy into his responses. He has no facts nor credible sources. His tactic is to just throw up an endless barrage of claims he can never prove, and to deny all facts that are inconvenient. He even denies that 800,000 denied gun sales to date are for SERIOUS offenses. He doesn't care if the FBI states about 700,000 denied sales were for criminals convicted of a crime punishable for more than one year.... a domestic violence conviction, or had a restraining order for domestic violence. soon pointless to deal with the issues because their irrationality and lack of intellectual integrity, prevents them from the ordinary give and take that makes up serious discussion.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/reports/2012-operations-report/nic...

When dealing with those with self-sabotaged intellects... it's more revealing to ignore their smokescreens and look for the common theme and with FO he has but one agenda. Like some spoiled 3 year old he just wants what he wants... and that is NO background checks for ANY gun purchase. To justify his childish views he MUST discredit ANY sort of background check so he can then claim it's pointless have any at all.

But if one wants the perfect example of the irrational citizen the Right wants to make even MORE irrational... we need look no further that FO.

Ok pierpont show me where the denial is taken off the records if I fill out two different forms on two different stores. One denied one not? Show some proof or admit you are thankful breathing is involuntary.

firearm owner
Joined:
Jan. 18, 2013 8:52 am
Quote firearm owner:
Quote Pierpont:

Just another nail in the coffin of the empty and already discredited claims made by the resident Village Idiot that the vast majority of denied gun sales are for minor reasons and soon cleared up.

This is the 10th year review of NICS... the instant background check http://www.jrsa.org/events/conference/presentations-10/Ronald_Frandsen.p... It includes a more detailed break down of both federal and state denials by reason as of 2008. Fugitives From Justice... the category FO claims are made up of minor offenses easily cleared up, make up just 5.5% of the federal denials, 6.8% of the state denials, and 1.3% of the local denials. This is hardly the vast majority of denials FO claims are fugitives with unpaid parking tickets...

Even if ALL these fugitives from justice are just for unpaid parking tickets... a laughable claim, they represent a tiny number of total denials. And if they WERE cleared up... then they would no longer be in the denied category. FOs claims, are, as usual... total bullsh*t.

All FO's accusations against NICS are just smokescreens. He puts no time or energy into his responses. He has no facts nor credible sources. His tactic is to just throw up an endless barrage of claims he can never prove, and to deny all facts that are inconvenient. He even denies that 800,000 denied gun sales to date are for SERIOUS offenses. He doesn't care if the FBI states about 700,000 denied sales were for criminals convicted of a crime punishable for more than one year.... a domestic violence conviction, or had a restraining order for domestic violence. soon pointless to deal with the issues because their irrationality and lack of intellectual integrity, prevents them from the ordinary give and take that makes up serious discussion.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/reports/2012-operations-report/nic...

When dealing with those with self-sabotaged intellects... it's more revealing to ignore their smokescreens and look for the common theme and with FO he has but one agenda. Like some spoiled 3 year old he just wants what he wants... and that is NO background checks for ANY gun purchase. To justify his childish views he MUST discredit ANY sort of background check so he can then claim it's pointless have any at all.

But if one wants the perfect example of the irrational citizen the Right wants to make even MORE irrational... we need look no further that FO.

Ok pierpont show me where the denial is taken off the records if I fill out two different forms on two different stores. One denied one not? Show some proof or admit you are thankful breathing is involuntary.

Squirm all you want liar boy. I've already PROVEN you wrong and you've done NOTHING but make empty claims as proof you're right. The prosecution rests it's case. Ta ta.

But thanks for proving my other observation... that crazed Gun Nuts are probably the LEAST qualified to save the republic simply because they place their infantile obsession with guns above the Republic itself... and that's ever so clear when they bastardize the Second Amendment to simply negate the militia clause because it stands in their way.

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Pierpont
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Feb. 29, 2012 1:19 pm

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The world we're leaving for today's teens...

Without immediate global action on climate change, today's teenagers will be forced to live with the consequences of our inaction. The World Bank has issued their third report of climate change, and it says that global temperatures could rise by as much as 4 degrees Celsius by the time today's teens hit their 80th birthday.

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