Man Woman Relations...

As comments on another blog I suggested these web sites (below) to Zenzoe but maybe the subject deserves a blog of its own. Here are the web page addresses if you’d like to read them:

http://womensinfidelity.com/

http://www.chowk.com/Views/Society/Honour-Killings-of-Women

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/laurie-penny-real-men-want-to-talk-about-sex--when-are-we-going-to-start-listening-7665812.html

The comments to these essays are often just as interesting, sometimes even more interesting, as the essays themselves. If you have time.

Not totally off the subject here’s a personal anecdote. My grandmother once confided to one of my sisters that her father had violated (raped?) her. My sister responded with “How awful!” to which my grandmother replied “But what else could he do? My mother had a vaginal infection.”

I’d bet my life savings that incest is much, much, much more common than we - society - will admit.  It isn’t openly practiced (as formerly among royalty) and of course there’s only been one Anais Nin. In her second unexpurgated journal, Incest, she wrote that she had an incestuous relationship with her father, which was graphically described (207–15). You don’t know her? Maybe you should. There’s a lot more to Anais Nin than her incestuous relation with her father. She was not only a brutally honest critic of herself but a great writer with a marvelous gift for sharing beauty. Here, for starters:

http://www.anaisnin.com/

http://www.anaisnin.com/booktastings/index.html

But I mentioned the incident of incest in my family’s past and of course Nin discusses it - particularly in her “Diaries” - explicitly and honestly, intimately. One paragraph from Valerie Harms wonderful (and lengthy) analysis of Nin’s early work:

She (Alraune III, I) sees examples of incestuous love. There is a painting of Lot with his hand upon his daughter's breast, showing joy and fear racking her body. The same feelings are seen between brother and sister, mother and son. She leaves Jeanne and walks into my own book, seeking peace...As I move within my book I am cut by pointed glass and broken bottles in which there is still the odor of sperm and perfume...More pages added to the book but pages like a prisoner's walking back and forth over the space allotted to him. Tortured by fear of madness and immobility she tries to unify the fragments of her self through writing, the art of forging a whole in creation. Still, there are no signs of rebirth, despite her efforts. As artist I imagine that I created myself, and that it was I who tore myself out of earth and water, broke all shells, and looked with chameleon eyes upon the changing face of the world, looked with anonymous vision upon my completed self. As artist, with the ability to create herself, she hoped to find the key to salvation.

Returning to the subject of the three web sites I recommended, men and women don’t often discuss sex – man, woman relations in general - freely with one another, openly without rancor or accusations, absent recriminations. Too bad.

You may not have time or opportunity to read Nin's books. This web page will provide you with many quotes, some of them I've pasted below it:

http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/7190.Ana_s_Nin

“We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are.”

― Anaïs Nin

“And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.”

― Anaïs Nin

 “How wrong is it for a woman to expect the man to build the world she wants, rather than to create it herself?”

― Anaïs Nin

“Someone told me the delightful story of the crusader who put a chastity belt on his wife and gave the key to his best friend for safekeeping, in case of his death. He had ridden only a few miles away when his friend, riding hard, caught up with him, saying 'You gave me the wrong key!”

― Anaïs Nin

“Everything with me is either worship and passion or pity and understanding. I hate rarely, though when I hate, I hate murderously. For example now, I hate the bank and everything connected with it. I also hate Dutch paintings, penis-sucking, parties, and cold rainy weather. But I am much more preoccupied with loving.”

― Anaïs Nin, Henry and June: From "A Journal of Love"--The Unexpurgated Diary of Anaïs Nin

“I do not want to be the leader. I refuse to be the leader. I want to live darkly and richly in my femaleness. I want a man lying over me, always over me. His will, his pleasure, his desire, his life, his work, his sexuality the touchstone, the command, my pivot. I don’t mind working, holding my ground intellectually, artistically; but as a woman, oh, God, as a woman I want to be dominated. I don’t mind being told to stand on my own feet, not to cling, be all that I am capable of doing, but I am going to be pursued, fucked, possessed by the will of a male at his time, his bidding.”

― Anaïs Nin

“Societies in decline have no use for visionaries.”

― Anaïs Nin

 

Comments

express
express's picture
Thank you, Alberto, for this

Thank you, Alberto, for this post. Anais Nin - a person brutally honest with herself. I once ate a delicious, ripe peach with a rotten spot on it.

Zenzoe
Anaïs Nin wrote: “I do not

Anaïs Nin wrote:

“I do not want to be the leader. I refuse to be the leader. I want to live darkly and richly in my femaleness. I want a man lying over me, always over me. His will, his pleasure, his desire, his life, his work, his sexuality the touchstone, the command, my pivot. I don’t mind working, holding my ground intellectually, artistically; but as a woman, oh, God, as a woman I want to be dominated. I don’t mind being told to stand on my own feet, not to cling, be all that I am capable of doing, but I am going to be pursued, fucked, possessed by the will of a male at his time, his bidding.”

Oh puhleeze... give me a break. What stinky garbage.  S&M crap.  I can't think of a bigger turn-off.

I have read Nin, but not that one.  Oye.  I did like, "Someone told me the delightful story of the crusader who put a chastity belt on his wife and gave the key to his best friend for safekeeping, in case of his death. He had ridden only a few miles away when his friend, riding hard, caught up with him, saying 'You gave me the wrong key!”

Alberto Ceras
The comment by express is

The comment by express is worth considering. I thought at first that I shouldn't include that particular quote. Zenzoe, I anticipated your -  and perhaps others - reaction to it and I was afraid that it might derail what could have become a fruitfull discission. But then I thought again and here it is.

Creative people, people who truly live, don't always please us. Their complexity confounds us. They rattle and shake our confining, comforting boxes. Do we take the bad along with the good or no? Of course I don't claim to embrace every idea that Nin has expressed but she created much beauty for us and I'm grateful for it. And she makes me think that not everyone thinks like I think and that's OK.

I just put a large box in my lawn with both ends busted out for my charming granddaughter to play with. She crawls right through it and emerges with a captivating grin. I hope that in later life she never erects a closed box for either her body or her mind, that she will always be able to bust through..

Zenzoe
Well, Alberto, I could be

Well, Alberto, I could be wrong, but I usually think of express as one of your alter-egos, for the purpose of the bump. If true, I wouldn't blame you—I would do it too, if I had another computer here. ;-) 

As for "creative people," we're all creative, and I see no great benefit in romanticizing or glorifying those who make names for themselves. Picasso was a great painter and a sexist prick. I don't have to love the sexist prick part, just because he painted well.  He, like many artists, didn't manage to bust through the "closed box" of his sexism, but managed to make it big, regardless. He was a patriarch in a time of patriarchs, so where's the creativity in that? Doors opened for him, regardless of the fact that he was lousy to the women in his life.

As for Nin, her particular sexual mind-set does not surprise me, given her childhood experience of being raped by her father. Such experiences in childhood often have perverted consequences for people into their adult lives, not always as an acquiescence to, and/or enjoyment of, power, but some kind of unhealthy sexual manifestation. Many girls raped by fathers go into prostitution or pornography; they've become inured to humiliation, so their choices become limited.

It worries me to see any sort of story leading to tolerance of pedophilia, not that your post does that. It's just something to consider, as opposed to seeing artists as role models.

I'm hoping my granddaughters never feel obligated to push themselves into areas that violate their personhoods, just because somebody who doesn't have their best interest in mind wants them too, or thinks it would be "creative," or "artistic," or "cool."  I hope they follow their own hearts, their own bodies' inclinations, without coersion from outside.

Alberto Ceras
Zenzoe, what do you think all

Zenzoe, what do you think all these spammers are doing? It's just that we don't recognize that they're all, or most, from the same source. There are no identifying photos or images while names are a meaningless jumble of letters and numbers. Serious bloggers should, in my opinion, try to keep well intended posts at the top of the pop chart. When I see an obvious spam post I take the time to click on the "Flag as offensive" at the bottom. Bush_Wacker had another idea - Boom. Whatever anyone can do to try and stop or control the spam will be doing a favor to all serious bloggers. Express is my wife's moniker. I often use it (with permission, of course).

Alberto Ceras
Zenzoe, you may not want to

Zenzoe, you may not want to read this analysis of the sexual encounters between Anais Nin and her father. It appears entirely objective and scholarly as well as factually correct.  Yes, there are victims and there are villains – psychologist Otto Rank, in my mind, being one of the latter. For me it is fascinating, it provides a vicarious glimpse into a world few of us will ever know or ever want to know apart from the printed page. I read it because I believe that understanding of human nature, in all its aspects, is essential to understanding our own place in life, our role in the world we so briefly inhabit. It's all too easy to be judgmental of what we consider to be others' weaknesses and misdeeds, all too difficult to be sympathetic - maybe pitying - and understanding. Do not read into this last statement what isn't there. I do not mean that we should condone outrageous acts.

The following are only excerpts from a lengthy article. Perhaps they will encourage you to read all of it.

http://www.sexualfables.com/the_house_of_incest.php

A few years earlier he had become nostalgic.  He had not seen his children for many years.  As he entered his fifties, he found a new form of reflection overtaking his thoughts, especially as the body began its second and final disintegration, its shrinkage into the spaces of eternity.  He was now 54.  He had begun writing regularly to Anaïs early the previous year, and she had responded with a section from her diary covering the period of their first separation.  It was painful and upsetting reading but nonetheless beautiful, fragile, inspirational.  He did not care to justify what had happened in the past.  But the desire in her diary was strong and powerful, it had an energy of its own, so it felt right to mend the break at this point since they were no longer in a clear relationship of power, the father over the daughter.  She was now a mature and independent woman with her own destiny and so when they met again he said that they did not need to lie to each other because they understood each other perfectly.  They both felt the pain of their separation and there was a mutual desire to reunite the two lost halves, like twins who have been separated from birth.  He teased her with the rituals of courtship and romance -- the flowers he brought her, the vase, calling her his fiancée.  As an artist she understood the irony he invested in these actions and he enjoyed the fact that the people around them, who did not know their relationship, thought she was his lover, though he was generally quick to point out she was his daughter.  They never believed him of course.  For her part she played the coquette.  All in all, they spent a relaxing time together.  He was stiff with lumbago and could not do much anyway.  At first it was like a mutual confession.  They told each other their stories, their conquests, their fears, their doubts.  She was transformed before his eyes into every woman he had ever known.  He was all the men she had ever known.  She sat on his bed as they talked.  He felt the desire surge through him.  He asked for a kiss and it was electric.  He was aroused.  She was in her negligée.  She sat astride him and she rode him.

Now, before disgust completely overtakes you, read the last and concluding paragraph of the essay:

There are good historical reasons for this of course.  We are seeing the first signs of the next aesthetic and technological revolution wherein the values of conservative America will be eroded far more ruthlessly than anything they have ever imagined.  In this revolution there will be no real megastars, no real rock or rap anthems, no masterpieces, for now everyone is a megastar and everything is available cheaply.  When anyone can sound like a rock star on a digital piano and file-swapping and price-cutting erode corporate margins, what future is there for a music industry?  When anyone can shoot a feature film on DV for next to nothing and audiences are impatient with linear, non-interactive storytelling, what future is there for a movie industry?  When the number of people reading books declines to the point that books are no longer profitable for publishers, and editors are overruled by lawyers, what future is there for books?  These art forms may not go away completely but one day they will be seen as 20th century phenomena that lingered into the 21st.  Anyone born before the last cultural revolution in the late Sixties (in other words anyone older than 35) has trouble with these ideas but they are ignoring history.  Nothing lasts forever.  The future belongs to the Web and online communities of blog-like minds and it belongs to handheld devices, wireless services and videogames.  The result will be a return to decentralization a la the Dark Ages where the “margins” will be more vital than the centers of empire, where there will be a renewed interest in the microcosms around us, both natural and artificial, and where cyber-terrorism will include frightening civilian populations half to death on a regular basis -- by the State and by the enemy.  Whether you think all this is a good thing or a bad thing will be determined primarily by your age, which is always how change should be measured.

 zenzoe, your understanding of what it means to be a creative person is vastly different from mine.

Alberto Ceras
When He Comes Back   When he

When He Comes Back

 

When he comes back to my arms

I'll make him feel what nobody ever felt

Everywhere me

Vanishing into him

Like water into the clay of a new jar.

 

Sorrow

 

Not sorrow that she is far from me

Not sorrow that she is taken from me

Sorrow only to think of her age passing.

 

The Hunter

 

Deer standing alone

Doe from a distance

Watching with such longing

That the hunter watching in the leaves

Remembered the wife he loved

And lets the bow fall.

 

Zenzoe
Hm-m-m...not sure about the

Hm-m-m...not sure about the poem.

I haven't read the entirety of your link about incest, Alberto, but it appears to validate my position, at least within the parts I did read. For example, "It led to the ultimate transgression: incest.  Incest between a father and a daughter was not an act of heroism or creativity on Anaïs’ part; it was just plain wrong.  Guiler had read up on his Sigmund Freud and clearly the incest taboo existed for a reason.  Early on in his career, Freud had felt that parents seducing children and the abuse that followed was the root cause of all adult hysteria and neurosis.  His theory went down like a ton of bricks and he abandoned it, concluding that sexual abuse mostly takes place in fantasies and dreams when it is in fact much more real and widespread than he could have possibly imagined.  Evidently Freud had experienced it himself as a child.  Guiler understood that such acts are narcissistic and selfish: loving oneself in others, no matter what they may think.  This is the constant danger that the narcissist faces: a sliding self image that is formed out of feeding upon others, like a vampire.  Incest borders on bestiality and pornography, not eroticism.  It was reflected in Anaïs’ inability to individualize her love.  To be fair, she felt deep revulsion for the incestuous act, which is why she could not achieve orgasm and why she referred to her father’s sperm as poison.  Fortunately, there was enough Catholic guilt and Latin pride and writer’s detachment to get her through the experience.  But it was not sexual pleasure so much as the determination to see it through.  It was a masochistic act.  She ended up wounded and it became her dirty little secret." (who is the author of that page/link?)

Or perhaps that's just her husband's view, but it does seem insightful, especially, " Incest borders on bestiality and pornography, not eroticism," and his references to the damage it does to the psyche of the victim. In my opinion, a father's rape or molestation of his daughter ranks with war crimes, but worse, because it represents to the child an abandonment and loss of the father, his care and protection, that is, his very love. Any father who does that to his daughter abandons her, as he abandons his role of father.

I do think you're right about this: "zenzoe, your understanding of what it means to be a creative person is vastly different from mine," especially if you think crimes like incest can reasonably fall within the artist's icoclastic repertoire, as excusable and explainable by virtue of the artist's role in society.  I hope you didn't mean to say creativity grants permission to artists to violate others, as society's spoiled brats. But that's how it seems.

To hold to the position that creative people have entitlements to harm others would be to buy the myth. The myth of the creative enfant-terrible may work for society in some sense, or for you, but it doesn't actually turn out to be true. I can show you example after example of artists and creative people who conform to community standards, or traditional, conventional ways, while producing great works of originality.  I had an instructor once who told me, "Never feel you have to play the role of 'the artist,'" meaning that many artists dress and act just like conventional folks in their private lives, while the substance of their work is about originality.

I've known quite a number of artists, none who played the role or were anything other than good people. In school, I knew a young painter and poet, one I felt certain would be the next Chagall, and, lo and behold, he did make a name for himself as a painter and a poet (you'll have to guess). He gave me one of his large paintings, which I still have, but the point I want to make is that he is one of the best people you could ever wish to meet. You would never catch him raping his daughter or doing anything else to harm another human being. He's healthy and happy, the exact opposite of an enfant-terrible.

Alberto Ceras
Zenzoe wrote: Hm-m-m...not

Zenzoe wrote:

Hm-m-m...not sure about the poem.

I hope you didn't mean to say creativity grants permission to artists to violate others, as society's spoiled brats. But that's how it seems.

Those are three beautiful Urdu poems, not one, obviously about man/woman relations.

No, of course I didn't mean to say such nonsense. I don't believe anyone else would read it that way. To quote Anais Nin:

“We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are.”

Creativity is that ability to produce something that a large share of the world's people recognize as unique and apt to endure. That says nothing about whether the creation might be good or bad, constructive or destructive, beauthful or ugly.


media_muse
Hmmm...? Man Woman

Hmmm...?

Man Woman Relations?

Incest ought to be the title of this post - "Man Woman Relations" are entirely another matter. Admittedly incest has a tremendous impact on any relating done by male/female, female/female or male/male.

Hmmm...I wonder is this quote the genesis for why this posting....?

Alberto Ceras wrote:

“We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are.”

― Anaïs Nin

I am sorry to read about what happened to your Grandmother. There is sorrow there for all of your family. It is extremely difficult when we find our alleged family protector member uses us - by being a father or other family male predator - for their immature selfish needs - power and dominion. You didn't say anything about the impact on you and your family via your Grandfathers predation of his daughter. Why? There's always some sort of fall out from this sort  incident - and there's always MORE than the ONE happening. Was your sister aware enough to realize Grandma wanted/ needed to talk more about her father & mothers predatory behavior? Was your sister able to let your grandmother talk more about what happened to her? I hope this opportunity of your Grandmothers brave opening was not wasted.

Undeniably - there is a lot more to Anais Nin than her incestuous relations with her father. Her father did influence her - as you want us to know. Nin, a legendary woman and brave beautiful writer - many see her as one of the finest writers of female erotica. I wonder - what other brilliance she would have given us - if her sexuality had not been developed by her Fathers predatory self absorption?  I wonder - what would she be like - if her father had been the "protective father" - rather than a lazy opportunistic "predator father" - ? Would her artistry be used - like it is here to show the eroticism of incest ?

I find it an abhorrent aberration to use the innocent intact involuntary nervous system - which responds to any touch - whether it be from a predator or a lover  or a loving friend - to produce  sensual feeling. I find it abhorrent when predators use innocent babies and children. Being '"used'" in this way really messes up the reality of the innocent babe - whether they are female or male. Nin's writings - as beautiful as they are - are still some of the best examples of how the wiring gets twisted - by the truth of the skins own sensuality - as well as the truth presented by the brain. This is a massive problem, affecting every sexual relationship which comes along after the original horrific predatory violation. The intact wiring now paving the way for future predators.

I am aware of many examples - I personally heard about from other women - of incestuous love between the father and daughter. I have not yet been told about the incestuous love & sexual activity between Mother and son - although its in  the realm of possible I'm sure. Nor am I aware of any immortalized experiences written erotically by any male with such experience.  I'm sure you'll let me know of any if you are aware of such.

Alberto Ceras wrote:

Not totally off the subject here’s a personal anecdote. My grandmother once confided to one of my sisters that her father had violated (raped?) her. My sister responded with “How awful!” to which my grandmother replied “But what else could he do? My mother had a vaginal infection.”

I’d bet my life savings that incest is much, much, much more common than we - society - will admit.  It isn’t openly practiced (as formerly among royalty) and of course there’s only been one Anais Nin. In her second unexpurgated journal, Incest, she wrote that she had an incestuous relationship with her father, which was graphically described (207–15). You don’t know her? Maybe you should. There’s a lot more to Anais Nin than her incestuous relation with her father. She was not only a brutally honest critic of herself but a great writer with a marvelous gift for sharing beauty. Here, for starters:

But I mentioned the incident of incest in my family’s past and of course Nin discusses it - particularly in her “Diaries” - explicitly and honestly, intimately. One paragraph from Valerie Harms wonderful (and lengthy) analysis of Nin’s early work.....

....Returning to the subject of the three web sites I recommended, men and women don’t often discuss sex – man, woman relations in general - freely with one another, openly without rancor or accusations, absent recriminations. Too bad......

I’d bet my life savings that incest is much, much, much more common than we - society - will admit.

 

If you are willing to split your life savings with me I'll give you the answer to which you made you bet... ;~)

Here it is anyway --------------

The problem Alberto is in ALL of our cultures world wide - incest in NOT taboo - it is the TALKING about it which is taboo. Alberto you did not talk about how it impacted your family.

I'm giving you the answer because the answer is TALKING - we need to talk about this. OUR own personal experiences - both the guys and the gals. So, if you feel like you owe me half by calling your bet - I SAY THANK YOU !

I say thanks anyway - because this subject NEEDS TO BE TALKED ABOUT- from each person in their personal context of life.

Zenzoe
 Alberto Ceras

 

Alberto Ceras wrote:

Creative people, people who truly live, don't always please us. Their complexity confounds us. They rattle and shake our confining, comforting boxes. Do we take the bad along with the good or no? Of course I don't claim to embrace every idea that Nin has expressed but she created much beauty for us and I'm grateful for it. And she makes me think that not everyone thinks like I think and that's OK.

I just put a large box in my lawn with both ends busted out for my charming granddaughter to play with. She crawls right through it and emerges with a captivating grin. I hope that in later life she never erects a closed box for either her body or her mind, that she will always be able to bust through..

The comment, above, Alberto, intended to enlighten me as to the nature of creativity and creative people, was what inspired my comments about creative people and the myth of the artist, as being wholly different from the rest of us, and their supposed lives lived by busting through conventional boxes.  Some do, some don't.  But your comment, above, did not seem to be limited to the works of artists, but included their lives as well; regardless, now you limit your comment about creative people to their works.

I agree with media_muse. Incest between a parent and child is an important subject, but I have my doubts as to whether you see it as a crime. Have you said so? Maybe I missed something.

media_muse
Yeah I'm with you Zenzoe.

Yeah I'm with you Zenzoe. Creativity and creative people are just as controlled as the rest of our economy. Just as enlightended or unenlightened as the human happens to be. Along with your comments here I've found that all people are creative - its part of being human. It is strange & wasteful how creativity is broken down - some are permitted their expression - mostly males in the art & creative parts of our world. Many people believe they are not creative - for many reasons I do not care to write about at this moment.

Either way - if you take the creative out of this statement  "Creative people, people who truly live, don't always please us. Their complexity confounds us. They rattle and shake our confining, comforting boxes. Do we take the bad along with the good or no?"

It would read more realistically without the creative existential privileged angst -  " people who truly live, don't always please us. Their complexity confounds us. They rattle and shake our confining, comforting boxes. Do we take the bad along with the good or no?

And yes, geewhizflippin'willikers -

Zenzoe wrote:

Incest between a parent and child is an important subject, but I have my doubts as to whether you see it as a crime. Have you said so? Maybe I missed something.

I missed it too.

 

Alberto Ceras
I don't know, Zenzoe, it

I don't know, Zenzoe, it seems we can never understand one another. I gave my concept of creativity, what I think it means. Anyone who has this ability, this gift, is a creative person. Creative people don't automatically - or even generally - get a pass, maybe just the opposite. They may even burn. Creative people are generally at odds with traditional society and they are sometimes seen as a threat to it. Are they different from the overwhelming majority of people? You bet they are. I'm not talking about someone who can turn out a decent copy of a Cezanne or someone who can scribble a few crude lines that rhyme and proclaim it poetry.

I'll have to be explicit about the box. My comment hadn't anything to do with creativity. I see you, Zenzoe, as confined in your box of feminism and never likely to get out of it. I don't want anything like that to ever happen to my children or to my grandchildren. I want them to always have an open mind, to strive to be understanding and not judgmental (I doubt that you'll understand what I've just typed), to be always auto-critical. To not let any one idea, right or wrong, govern their lives and that might establish boundaries or arbitrarily determine their relations with others.

Incest, the act, isn't a transgression or "bad" in itself. It's bad because society says it is. It took me some time to understand that. You and media_muse may never. Egyptian royalty is the obvious example. Adam and Eve? If you believe in that myth then we are all descendents of an incestuous affair. Even if you don't accept that fable as fact those who wrote the bible seemed to think that incest, at least in this case, had god's blessing. Then there's Hawthorne’s relations with his sister Ebe and his literary themes. There are other true life examples but I won't go on, it would be fruitless I'm afraid.

Of course I know the legitimate biological concerns, I understand that it is a threat to the relationship between husband and wife, to the family. I'm aware of all those things that have caused many societies to try and prohibit it and to always punish it when discovered.

Different cultures, different societies ban what they consider threatening to the established order and they use prohibitions as a way to demonstrate their power, to keep subjects in awe. In ancient Hawaii a commoner who ate a banana received a death sentence - likewise if the king's shadow should cross the poor "peasant's" body. Here in pre-Hispanic Mexico a commoner who ate chocolate or amaranth was likewise summarily slaughtered,

Yes, I suppose I wanted to initiate a discussion on incest but I also thought to encourage the unconventional among us to read some superb literature - the works of Anais Nin.

As for my grandmother's experience I can assure you that it damaged no one in our family and certainly not my grandmother.Lula was as wholesome, as bright, as independent and as happy as anyone could hope to be. The incident was only mentioned once, as I described it. My sister related it to me and that was the end of it. I met my grandmother's mother long before learning of the incest and she, too, was as lively and interesting as a great grandmother could ever be. I'm thankful to have known them both. They introduced me to literature, they - more than anyone else - taught me to think.

media_muse
Wow...Alberto -

Wow...Alberto - really?

Rather than response with honest self reflection on how incest may or may not have impacted your family, your comments devolved into a deconstruction of your opinions about Zenzoe. Hmm...was an unconscious nerve touched? You make a posting about a highly sensitive matter - so sensitive you cannot call it by its true name. So taboo is it that you yourself make no mention of YOURSELF. Rather cheaply you USE your abused Grandma for verbal sport to display beliefs about incest via the fancy-shmancy disguise of "art".

So, I'll say it again: I find it an abhorrent aberration to use the innocent intact involuntary nervous system - which responds to any touch - whether it be from a predator or a lover  or a loving friend - to produce  sensual feeling. I find it abhorrent when predators use innocent babies and children. Being '"used'" in this way really messes up the reality of the innocent babe - whether they are female or male. Nin's writings - as beautiful as they are - are still some of the best examples of how the wiring gets twisted - by the truth of the skins own sensuality - as well as the truth presented by the brain. This is a massive problem, affecting every sexual relationship which comes along after the original horrific predatory violation. The intact wiring now paving the way for future predators.

You now have  written about the impact on your family I find it strangely flat. It also does emphasize the reality that almost all molested & incested people do get on with their lives. So? What else are people supposed to do? It is irrefutable that incest damages the psyche - preventing the innate creative expression. I suppose this would work for you - so that the elite title of "creative" or "artist" remain within the confines of the male dominion?

Alberto Ceras wrote:

My sister related it to me and that was the end of it.

Alberto Ceras
I don't know, Zenzoe, it

I don't know, Zenzoe, it seems we can never understand one another. I gave my concept of creativity, what I think it means. Anyone who has this ability, this gift, is a creative person. Creative people don't automatically - or even generally - get a pass, maybe just the opposite. They may even burn. Creative people are customarily at odds with traditional society and they are sometimes seen as a threat to it. Are they different from the overwhelming majority of people? You bet they are. I'm not talking about someone who can turn out a decent copy of a Cezanne or someone who can scribble a few crude lines that rhyme and proclaim it poetry.

I'll have to be explicit about the box. My comment hadn't anything to do with creativity. I see you, Zenzoe, as confined in your box of feminism and never likely to get out of it. I don't want anything like that to ever happen to my children or to my grandchildren. I want them to always have an open mind, to strive to be understanding and not judgmental (I doubt that you'll understand what I've just typed), to be always auto-critical. To not let any one idea, right or wrong, govern their lives or establish boundaries that might arbitrarily determine their relations with others.

Incest, the act, isn't a transgression or "bad" in itself. It's bad because society says it is. It took me some time to understand that. You and media_muse may never. Egyptian royalty is the obvious example. Adam and Eve? If you believe in that myth then we are all descendents of an incestuous affair. Even if you don't accept that fable as fact those who wrote the bible seemed to think that incest, at least in this case, had god's blessing. Then there's Hawthorne’s relations with his sister Ebe and his literary themes. There are other true life examples but I won't go on, it would be fruitless I'm afraid. ANY non-consensual sexual encounter is abhorrent. A consensual sex act, an act between persons capable of understanding to what they're consenting, is not for me to judge. 

Of course I know the legitimate biological concerns, I understand that it is a threat to the relationship between husband and wife, to the family. I'm aware of all those things that have caused many societies to try and prohibit it and to always punish it when discovered.

Different cultures, different societies ban what they consider threatening to the established order and they use prohibitions as a way to demonstrate their power, to keep subjects in awe. In ancient Hawaii a commoner who ate a banana received a death sentence - likewise if the king's shadow should cross the poor "peasant's" body. Here in pre-Hispanic Mexico a commoner who ate chocolate or amaranth was likewise summarily slaughtered,

Yes, I suppose I wanted to initiate a discussion on incest but I also thought to encourage the unconventional among us to read some superb literature - the works of Anais Nin.

As for my grandmother's experience I can assure you that it damaged no one in our family and certainly not my grandmother.Lula was as wholesome, as bright, as independent and as happy as anyone could hope to be. The incident was only mentioned once, as I described it. My sister related it to me and that was the end of it. I met my grandmother's mother long before learning of the incest and she, too, was as lively and interesting as a great grandmother could ever be. I'm thankful to have known them both. They introduced me to literature, they - more than anyone else - taught me to think.

Zenzoe
Alberto wrote: I'm not

Alberto wrote:

I'm not talking about someone who can turn out a decent copy of a Cezanne or someone who can scribble a few crude lines that rhyme and proclaim it poetry.

Neither am I, Mr. Self-satisfied, Creepy Son of a Prick. The friend I mentioned is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brandi   I dare say he can write circles around you any day of year. 

But I'm also talking about artists such as Georgia O'Keefe (yes, she had an extra-marital affair, but so did millions of other women at the time, but other than that she was quite sane and happy), or Henry Moore, who dressed quite conservatively and had a normal, loving family life...the list goes on, but why bother. You're smarter than everybody else.

Alberto wrote:

Incest, the act, isn't a transgression or "bad" in itself. It's bad because society says it is.

Just as I thought. That's really quite appalling.  Where on earth did you get that idea?  That's like saying, "Murder isn't bad in itself; it's bad because society says it is." I wonder how that particular rationalization has manifested in your own life. I hate to think.

Educate yourself, Alberto: http://l-pawlik-kienlen.suite101.com/when-youre-a-victim-of-sex-abuse-a5...

Alberto wrote:

I see you, Zenzoe, as confined in your box of feminism and never likely to get out of it.

And I see you as confined in your box of the smug ignorance of thinking with your gonads. Go to hell, "Alberto."

 

 

Alberto Ceras
Zenzoe wrote:You're smarter

Zenzoe wrote:
You're smarter than everybody else.

Not everybody. A few, yes. But thank you..

media_muse
Admittedly- I am Gonad-ally

Admittedly- I am

Gonad-ally challenged. Even the surgical application of a set with the requisite hormonal supplementation probably would not change my perspective.

The idea that incest is "bad because society says it is" over looks all the science and history currently available to us. According to"Mummy" studies the Egyptians style of the royals interbreeding caused genetic defects - found in the remains of DNA. This is believed to have strongly led to the demise of certain ancestral lineages.Most find it psychologically damaging to be involved in an incestually Father- Daughter relationship. You say you are exploring a creative thinking process....hmm....

Alberto wrote:

Incest, the act, isn't a transgression or "bad" in itself. It's bad because society says it is.

Earlier I mentioned my curiosity around the genesis for this posting....I wondered if this is the reason why you posted a topic for Man Woman Relations - which is really about Father - Daughter Incest. I am now concerned - do you have a daughter?

Alberto Ceras wrote:

“We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are.”

― Anaïs Nin

Otherwise I wonder -  are you are a creative player - of charades here ? One moment a rigel1, next a Sperminator, next advocating for us to give well-fare to Toyota and the military, possible a Growingtrees, next possibly Zenzoe too. ?

Or are you truly just advocating for creative thought? You being the enlightened "male" one to '" creatively '" suggest this as a way to open up creativity ? Or psychological insight? I just do not see how one could say Nin was "entirely objective and scholarly" about a sexual relationship initiated by her father.The one who had the privilege and responsibility of protector and power - over his child.

Alberto Ceras wrote:

Zenzoe, you may not want to read this analysis of the sexual encounters between Anais Nin and her father. It appears entirely objective and scholarly as well as factually correct.  Yes, there are victims and there are villains – psychologist Otto Rank, in my mind, being one of the latter. For me it is fascinating, it provides a vicarious glimpse into a world few of us will ever know or ever want to know apart from the printed page. I read it because I believe that understanding of human nature, in all its aspects, is essential to understanding our own place in life, our role in the world we so briefly inhabit. It's all too easy to be judgmental of what we consider to be others' weaknesses and misdeeds, all too difficult to be sympathetic - maybe pitying - and understanding. Do not read into this last statement what isn't there. I do not mean that we should condone outrageous acts.

Hmm....what is going on here ?

Zenzoe wrote:

And I see you as confined in your box of the smug ignorance of thinking with your gonads. Go to hell, "Alberto."

nimblecivet
nimblecivet's picture
Alberto, you should recognize

Alberto, you should recognize it when you have crossed a line and fess up. An abstract moral analysis which is merely logical in character cannot be adequate to fully plumbing the nature of the issue and I think your line of argument relies upon that rather than a valid characterization of "creative thinking." Of course, to understand thinks requires a certain tolerance and you do qualify your statements by saying you do not condone outrageous acts but you should know better than to flirt with a serious subject like this which is I hope all you are doing.

Deleuze and Gauttari address the centrality of the Oedipus myth to Freud in their work anti-Oedipus and in so doing carry on the analysis initiated by Nietzsche as Nietzsche influenced Freud. Restrictions on behavior are certainly common to every culture if only for the reason that the offspring from incestuous relations produces genetically dysfunctional offspring (birth defects, eg Down's syndrome). This would have been interpreted by primitive people's as a "curse", eg a punishment from God. This does not mean that the Oedipus myth is the cipher to human psychology.

 Both the aspect of physiology and psychology are interrelated. It cannot be psychologically healthy do develop a relationship of sexual intimacy with one's offspring as that contradicts the responsibility of the parent to produce a child capable of becoming a mature adult and establishing their own family, establishing their relation of primary intimacy with their mate. This is simply the psychological reality that is hard wired into human nature as a safegaurd to protect the ability of the species to survive. For example, the incorrect theory of "royal blood" led to the prevelance of hemophelia among royal families in Europe. An abstract moral analysis which is merely logical in character cannot be adequate to fully plumbing the nature of the issue. As media muse states, a purely sensual exploitation is of course also abusive. Yes, people often do go on and heal at least partially from a multitude of unspeakable experiences, but they cannot successfully adapt to life without doing so and putting it behind them. Unless you're Howard Stern who once had a couple of sisters on his show who (claimed) to have sex with each other every once in a while, but that doesn't count. Sickness is so ingrained in our culture that it is best to think of it as an almost ubiquitous condition and one which we need to escape if we are to fulfil our role in history.

nimblecivet
nimblecivet's picture
looks like me and media muse

looks like me and media muse are posting at about the same time as she points out the scientific basis as well by pointing out the history of the Egyptians.

media_muse
Yes we were - how's that for

Yes we were - how's that for serendipity and synchronicity!

nimblecivet wrote:

looks like me and media muse are posting at about the same time as she points out the scientific basis as well by pointing out the history of the Egyptians.

And nimblecivet brought in our mythological stories (which I thought about today while out in the garden) - and  - the psychological impact which "Alberto" prefers to overlook.

Alberto Ceras
I wish I could eliminate the

I wish I could eliminate the uncorrected version of one of my lengthy comments but for some reason I can't access it. I'll never understand how this site works.

I'm glad that this post of mine has led to discussion. Some of it healthy, some morbid. I wish, though, that it hadn't, in some cases, turned rancorous and spiteful, sometimes twisting my words while taking others completely out of context. I also wish that some who respond here on TH were more attentive readers. I've no time to point to all the many examples but (with apologies, media_muse, for singling you out) these are the most recent and most convenient:

mm wrote: "You say you are exploring a creative thinking process....hmm...."

No, I didn't say that nor is it implied. A good idea, though, maybe you'll follow up on it, mm.

mm wrote: advocating for us to give well-fare to Toyota and the military,

I have never, anywhere, advocated such a thing.

mm wrote: I just do not see how one could say Nin was "entirely objective and scholarly" about a sexual relationship initiated by her father.

I said that the essay, not Nin, appeared entirely objective and scholarly. 

Is it permissible to sue those who misquote as libelous? Joking aside, media_muse, and in spite of the misquotes, I consider you to be one of the most open minded, thoughtful of TH bloggers.

Natural Lefty
Natural Lefty's picture
Here is the comment Alberto

Here is the comment Alberto referred to from Nimblecivet's "The Evolution of Capitalism" thread:

Reasons for my staying out of this fight:

1. This is "Nimblecivet's thread;" thus, he gets first crack at being moderator;

2. This is not "my fight;" I find it is better to choose the time and place to make an issue of something. As I have often heard "discretion is the better part of valor;"

3. I am "damned if I do and damned if I don't" if I choose sides. I have already been clear that I feel incest often has lifelong, damaging effects to its victims and is a huge problem. Now that Alberto has clearly stated that he no more approves of incest than he does of murder, we all seem to be agreed on that basic idea.

I take your word for that, Alberto, and that your grandmother seemed undamaged by her incest experience, in your perception at least. Some people are very resilient and nothing seems to scar them emotionally. Also, a many years had elapsed since your grandmother had been molested, giving her all the more time to recover. Nonetheless, incest or molestation psychologically damages the majority of its victims. The research evidence on this is very clear. It is a violation of trust, an abuse of power, and a robbing of innocence and the intimacy that we desire to save for that someone oh so special.

I don't wish to create enmity among my friends; rather, I would like to alleviate it if I can. There is only so much a person can do, however. I don't want to see any of us banned, either. As far as my attributing something Dhavid said to Alberto, I have a "lousy memory" and don't remember that, but it could have happened. We all make mistakes at times. I never dwell on past "dust-ups." I guess it's not in my nature, which I think is a good thing.

Saying that incest is only wrong because society considers it so, does give the impression of approval of incest. Surely you can see that, Alberto. It is similar to the view expressed by some psychologists that schizophrenia is only abnormal because some cultures say it is. Actually, schizophrenia has been proven to be associated with out-of-control dopamine and/or serotonin circuits in the brain which lead to a person's perceptions being out of whack with reality. Of course, we should be understanding of schizophrenic people, try to help them and treat them humanely, but to say that culture is the problem rather than something about the schizophrenic person, is ludicrous. If we let schizophrenics with their strange perceptions and delusions run the show, society would resemble, well... an evangelical religion. In the case of incest, it is wrong for the reasons I described above.

That is about as diplomatic and professional as I can be.

Natural Lefty
Natural Lefty's picture
Here is my follow-up

Here is my follow-up comment:

I was the one who brought up the topic of incest. Alberto was asking why people don't reply to posts about some of the more controversial topics, so I gave his Man-Woman Relations post as an example of one I wasn't sure how to respond to, especially the parts about incest. It was supposed to be an example. Oh well...things happen.

The schizophrenia reference is also supposed to be an example, of how sometimes, people say something is a cultural matter, but there are other more compelling issues in fact which transcend culture. Schizophrenia is otherwise unrelated to the incest topic, other than involving psychology.

The fact that Nimblecivet brought up Wilhelm Reich was a strange coincidence. I may have remembered the content of my paper incorrectly, but I do know it had something to do with Reich's strange ideas about sex which he advocated, as my internet search last night confirmed.

A couple more issues with incest I forgot to mention, are the possibilities of sexually transmitted infections, and pregnancies, to add to the list of problems it can cause.

Alberto Ceras
I couldn't understand why the

I couldn't understand why the subject of incest was even broached on nimblecivet's blog when mine here is specifically about incest. But it happened and I followed the crowd. I've maybe made things worse but I've copied a couple of my comments from there and I'm pasting them here as one single, very long comment. I hope that Natural Lefty will do the same.

To insinuate that I approve of incest - even going so far as to suggest that I might have been guilty of it myself - is about the most vicious calumny I can imagine. I no more approve of incest than I would approve of murder.

I said that the act of incest was not inherently wrong, that it was only wrong or evil because society made it so. I also said that it took me some time to understand this. Here's an attempt to clarify this:

The act of crossing the street is not in itself a transgression. Once a stop light is installed and laws passed that prohibit crossing against a red light anyone who does that violates the law, commits a minor crime. But the act itself, I repeat, is not a violation and only becomes so when the law – society - says it is.

OK, making the leap to incest. Some claim, for instance, that it is inherently wrong because the child of an incestuous relationship may be handicapped in some way. Of course that's possible. Usually, though, but not necessarily, that mental or physical defect only manifests itself after a few generations of incest. On the other hand the child of an incestuous relationship might turn out to be perfectly normal, maybe even be a child prodigy, a genius. But suppose no child was born as a result of the incestuous relationship. It's quite possible and for several reasons that I'm sure you can imagine. Let's also suppose that the couple involved in an incestuous relationship had no knowledge of their kinship. Also possible, there are real life accounts of such cases. A man and woman meet, let's say they were fraternal twins and that an exhausted and sleepy nurse's aide caused them to be separated in the postnatal care unit. Two children grow up together thinking, as do their parents, that they are brother and sister, twins. The real twin grows up in another household believing himself to be the biological child of the parents who have lovingly raised him. Those parents also believe him to be their biological son.

The female twin and this son meet, they fall in love and they get married. They enjoy a perfectly normal, joyous life including exuberant, satisfying and frequent intercourse. One of them is sterile so they decide to adopt. With the help of an adoption counselor they find and become attached to three very young, abandoned children. The young family is a model worthy of the respect and admiration universally accorded them. Now a Zenzoe or media_muse or maybe the nurse's aide who mixed the children (children since grown old) a straight laced bible thumping angry old virgin, suddenly feels guilt and decides that god has commanded her to inform the couple, - and anyone else handy - of her careless act and that the once happy couple has been living in sin - that they must feel remorse and acknowledge the horror of their unlawful and sinful cohabitation. Who's the devil here? How many people now - and forever after will - lead shattered and unhappy lives, maybe even become suicidal? Is anyone willing to say that the once happy couple committed an evil act? No, there was nothing inherently wrong or evil, wrong in itself, about their repeated incestuous acts - not until the smug old holy-rolling virgin turned up to make it so. Ah, you say, but this is all fantasy, it couldn't happen. No, it isn't fantasy and, yes, it could happen.

Repeating myself, there was nothing inherently evil or wrong in the couple's incestuous acts, at least not until the old maid, society, made them so. Is society justified in making incestuous relations unlawful? Yes, of course, for all the reasons that have been raised by Zenzoe and others. Society would be gravely remiss if it didn’t enact and vigoursly enforce such laws.

The following is a response to a Natural Lefty comment that I hope he will copy and paste here.

NL you say: Nonetheless, incest or molestation psychologically damages the majority of its victims.

Of course it does. I think even Otto Rank knew that. You've read his works, NL? Lots about incest.

And on further you say: Saying that incest is only wrong because society considers it so, does give the impression of approval of incest.

No quarrel there either. It does give that impression. I always hope, futilely more often than not, that folks will go beyond impressions and begin to think.

And you say, too: Of course, we should be understanding of schizophrenic people, try to help them and treat them humanely, but to say that culture is the problem rather than something about the schizophrenic person, is ludicrous.

That's true as well but I hadn't said anything about schizophrenic persons. And I certainly did NOT say or imply, when discussing incest, that culture is the problem rather than the transgressor. Culture, society sets the standards, the norms. We always hope that those norms are appropriate but sometimes they aren't and must be reassessed.

I did say that I thought incest was probably much, much, much more common that we realize. I believe that to be true, although I base my opinion solely on anecdotal evidence without anything solid to support it. I gave my grandmother's experience as perhaps supportive of my conjecture. If it is true - if it is more prevalant - then society needs to do something about it, toute de suite. If it turns out to be less common we can maybe breathe a little easier but obviously not relax, we must still stay alert. Except for your response to this idea, Natural Lefty, it just got lost in the tizzy fits. With the certainty that this will get folks hackles up again, I believe that consensual incest between two people who know the risks involved is none of my business. But when does any unrelated pair know and understand all the risks involved?

One of societies deep, dark, hush-hush secrets is that all males age 40 or less (and often those much older) who possess normally functioning sex gear - testosterone and all that - are sexually attracted to lovely 15 year old girls (give or take 1 or 3 years) - or in some cases, to attractive young boys. Given that strong drive - coupled with the intense attraction - we can realistically assume that some men will act out their desires inappropriately, through acts of incest or pedophilia. We live in a real world, not somewhere over the rainbow. As a man and a psychologist you surely know all this, NL. No doubt there are women who try to understand this, too, but try as they might they can't entirely, just as men cannot fully understand pregnancy and childbirth.

Not so very long ago - in the good ole U.S. and elsewhere - society accepted, or at least tolerated, marriage to 13, 14, 15 year old girls, maybe in some cases even younger. Poe's marriage at age 27 to his young (13, I believe) first cousin comes easily to mind. But times change and these days kids are apt to be sexually active at even younger ages (re. Britain's 11 year old father) while at the same time the age of consent remains stuck or creeps upwards. That gap can - and probably does - create problems that sensible, intelligent people should try to understand and openly discuss.

I don't rush to condemn others' behavior. Behavior may be reprehensible and a threat to society but if we're to control it we must try to understand - not condone - all the factors that lay behind the harmful acts. Otherwise everybody's going to be in jail.

media_muse
Hmm..."Alberto"... this seems

Hmm..."Alberto"...

this seems more about a lack of clarity rather than "non attentive". In order to sort through the confusion let's start with the title: "Man Woman Relations". The title does not relate well to the subject text in the body - 98% of the posting. The 98% part deals with Father-Daughter incest as experienced by Anais NIn. Was the distortion accidental or intended ? Linking the two together seems to indicate a lack of the depth of awareness around ALL the issues with incest.

Uuuuu-Oooohhh, ouch....the uncontrollable urge... to go "sperminator" is coming over me - the urge to go off topic... to the 'libel" part. I believe your case is a bit flimsy for libel and I don't mind you gave ME the chance for being used as an example - whooo weeeee! Let's go!

I have now got a grip on my hormones - I'll leave the libel stuff for later. But, BTW, where's  my 50% of your life savings for answering your question? Hmm..I suppose it would be more savvy to know just exactly what "life savings" means to you before I go any further with that part. Gosh, I'll just give you the answer again because I didn't do it for the Money.

Today I went and read everything - even those wonderful links you posted. Thank you for the awesome links! Perhaps if I had read them before my postings may have been different. Hmm... unlikely considering the disparity between title and subject with its resulting tail trail.The link topics were about: 1.) women's infidelity, 2.) honour killings and 3.) "Real men want to talk about sex - when are we going to start listening". Undeniably ALL links provided are incredible viable  mind-expanding  timely  provocative  necessary areas to explore ~! As you said " the subject deserves a blog of its own"~! AND the title "Man Woman Relations" would be the deserved title to that blog with those links. Gee whiz, you have enough topics & material from this forum here for at least 5 more blogs.

Alberto Ceras wrote:

As comments on another blog I suggested these web sites (below) to Zenzoe but maybe As you said they the Here are the web page addresses if you’d like to read them:

http://womensinfidelity.com/

http://www.chowk.com/Views/Society/Honour-Killings-of-Women

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/laurie-penny-real-men-want-to-talk-about-sex--when-are-we-going-to-start-listening-7665812.html

The comments to these essays are often just as interesting, sometimes even more interesting, as the essays themselves. If you have time.

Initially we got to this thoughtful-mess due to title and subject disparity. As well as some other well placed remarks - as this part shows:

Alberto Ceras wrote:

Not totally off the subject here’s a personal anecdote. My grandmother once confided to one of my sisters that her father had violated (raped?) her. My sister responded with “How awful!” to which my grandmother replied “But what else could he do? My mother had a vaginal infection.”

I’d bet my life savings that incest is much, much, much more common than we - society - will admit.  It isn’t openly practiced (as formerly among royalty) and of course there’s only been one Anais Nin. In her second unexpurgated journal, Incest, she wrote that she had an incestuous relationship with her father, which was graphically described (207–15). You don’t know her? Maybe you should. There’s a lot more to Anais Nin than her incestuous relation with her father. She was not only a brutally honest critic of herself but a great writer with a marvelous gift for sharing beauty. Here, for starters:

http://www.anaisnin.com/

http://www.anaisnin.com/booktastings/index.html

But I mentioned the incident of incest in my family’s past and of course Nin discusses it - particularly in her “Diaries” - explicitly and honestly, intimately. One paragraph from Valerie Harms wonderful (and lengthy) analysis of Nin’s early work:.........................

You reference to your Grandmothers incest - her violation / rape by your predatory Great Grandfather is tiny - space wise - but subject wise - Massive. I find the linking of two massive volatile subjects - "male female relating" and "father daughter incest as described by Anais NIn" - with your Grandmother thrown in for the soup du jour - a recipe for highly provocative confusion. Consequently, I quote nimblecievt here:

nimblecivet wrote:

Alberto, you should recognize it when you have crossed a line and fess up. An abstract moral analysis which is merely logical in character cannot be adequate to fully plumbing the nature of the issue.

In giving links to the writings of Anais Nin - as examples of academically beautiful writings about fatherly incestuous experiences - does not - to my mind - create a valid framework for discussing the problems for "Male Female Relations". The topic of incest between Father and Daughter certainly does impact the relating between males and females. According to research the impact of father incest creates wiring for further predation of the female - by any predator that happens to come along. I did ask early on what was the genesis for your posting - two distinct and volatile subjects pudged together as the one. Even with reading everything here I still have missed the point. What is the point?

Alberto Ceras wrote:

Yes, I suppose I wanted to initiate a discussion on incest but I also thought to encourage the unconventional among us to read some superb literature - the works of Anais Nin.

Oh....your point was wanting the unconventional to read Anais Nin - undeniably  a separate blog topic. Without knowing your point and reading your posting #4 - I interpreted it - as... "Alberto" is playing with how " creative " people behave - how creative people are the ones who "truly live" by the dissing the taboo - the careless abandon of father as a physical sexual lover for the daughter. Hmmm...said  I -  I wonder - is creative Alberto lusting after his daughter or granddaughter? Or is he after some strange sort of teaching point? Hmm....does he fantasize that the way to make a female erotica literary genius is by her father beginning an incestuous relationship which provides passion? After all - he did say he is anticipating reactions:

Alberto Ceras wrote:

The comment by express is worth considering. I thought at first that I shouldn't include that particular quote. Zenzoe, I anticipated your -  and perhaps others - reaction to it and I was afraid that it might derail what could have become a fruitfull discission. But then I thought again and here it is.

Creative people, people who truly live, don't always please us. Their complexity confounds us. They rattle and shake our confining, comforting boxes. Do we take the bad along with the good or no? Of course I don't claim to embrace every idea that Nin has expressed but she created much beauty for us and I'm grateful for it. And she makes me think that not everyone thinks like I think and that's OK.

Next  when I saw this:

Alberto Ceras wrote:

I gave my concept of creativity... {Creativity is that ability to produce something that a large share of the world's people recognize as unique and apt to endure. That says nothing about whether the creation might be good or bad, constructive or destructive, beauthful or ugly.}......Anyone who has this ability, this gift, is a creative person. Creative people don't automatically - or even generally - get a pass, maybe just the opposite. They may even burn. Creative people are generally at odds with traditional society and they are sometimes seen as a threat to it. Are they different from the overwhelming majority of people? You bet they are.....

Incest, the act, isn't a transgression or "bad" in itself. It's bad because society says it is. It took me some time to understand that. You and media_muse may never. Egyptian royalty is the obvious example. Adam and Eve? If you believe in that myth then we are all descendents of an incestuous affair. Even if you don't accept that fable as fact those who wrote the bible seemed to think that incest, at least in this case, had god's blessing. Then there's Hawthorne’s relations with his sister Ebe and his literary themes. There are other true life examples but I won't go on, it would be fruitless I'm afraid.

I said hmmm...again. What is Alberto" playing at ? Charades? Creativity lessons for us pitiful earth bound boxed in folks who don't really know how to live? A lesson in the essential need for incest - to enable us with the ability to "fully" live? He obviously doesn't care about history or the scientific studies on DNA - the disease addled genetics of damaging incestuous love // sex act on reproduction. Does he really believe ALL those crazy bible stories? Hmm...still not sure.

At any rate "Alberto" the worst you can accuse me of is jumping to some conclusions. For these reasons -  the subject & topic disparity creating cognitive dissonance through the disparity. And, I did not read the 3 links - admittedly this was not thoughtful of me. Please excuse my thoughtlessness.

Like you - I'm certain there are many of us here - as well as the overall population - all with their personal antidotes around grandmothers or grandfathers. Or antidotes about their father, drunk uncle, brother/s, friend of older brother/s,  drunk friend of uncle, grandfather, father or.....see more blog topics for you !

You said:

Alberto Ceras wrote:

Zenzoe, you may not want to read this analysis of the sexual encounters between Anais Nin and her father. It appears entirely objective and scholarly as well as factually correct.

I said :  I just do not see how one could say Nin was "entirely objective and scholarly" about a sexual relationship initiated by her father. You wrote here about your reading of it - and blaming me for libel? Geeflippin'willikers!

Regarding your approval of corporate wellfare - Any development around fusion or electricity is mostly funded by our tax payer dollars - GIVEN to our military and to corporations, Here's where you advocated the corporate well-fare for Toyota & the military -

Alberto Ceras wrote:

The military and Toyota, reasonably conservative enterprises, are betting - and investing heavily - on hydrogen fuel cells. This seems to me the sensible alternative to both gasoline and ethanol. Read these articles if you want:

http://money.cnn.com/2012/02/23/autos/army_hydrogen_fuel_cell/index.htm

Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles join the Army

By Peter Valdes-Dapena @PeterDrives February 23, 2012: 8:33 AM ET

"For now, the U.S. is testing a fleet of 16 General Motors fuel cell vehicles in Hawaii. They run on compressed hydrogen gas. The hydrogen is combined in a fuel cell with oxygen from the air in a process that generates electricity. The only exhaust the vehicles produce is water vapor."

Click on the URL above for the entire article and then click again on the URL below for Toyota's take:.

Toyota commits to hydrogen-powered cars

To which I responded:

media_muse wrote:

When our military develops technology along with a private consuming corporation, and/or with a consuming privatized public university - WE - you & me & all - ALL of the conscripted tax payerspay for the technological development. WE PAY FOR THEIR BETTING & INVESTING. After squandering trillions of our tax dollars they get to further enjoy the  carnivorous benefits of our labor to enjoy fatter profits by charging us for the new technology - that they hold the patent on - that WE the people paid for. Hmmm... if this is ok  with you - I must ask - are you paying any taxes? Are you a stock holder in Toyota?

I searched but could not find a price tag for the military 16 vehicles that WE are paying for. Here is something from a web site that wasn't full of wu wu....Hydrogen cars: A zero-emission longshot

By Peter Valdes-Dapena @PeterDrivesMarch 19, 2012: 5:09 AM ET

 

 

 

Alberto Ceras
Now we’re getting somewhere!

Now we’re getting somewhere! My uncontrolled experiment in Man Woman Relations is progressing quite nicely right here on the old TH Community, live and in FHDTV (well, for those who have it). Let’s see if I can keep it rolling (roiling?). Who knows when or where it might (m)end.

A couple things stand out for me here on TH, maybe some of you have noticed it too. Women (1) don’t listen - better said, don't read and (2) they must, absolutely must, have the last word.

A fellow once said (a former TH blogger, surely):

"Trying to reason with a woman is like trying to eat soup with a fork."

In my pre-TH days I rejected that outright but I've been enlightened, at least as to TH's women, and so I was inspired to paraphrase the savant's words (restricted toTH girls, of course):

Trying to reason with a woman is like trying to catch a fart with a butterfly net.

Bold letters, as well as the astute phrase, are mine. Come to think of it, that phrase may not be original. What do you think?

I asked Natural Lefty earlier if he had read Otto Rank's works. Rank wrote on incest and lots of other things. Freud's former disciple and crutch, Rank more than any other exposed Freud as a Fraud (Freud, Fraud, get it? Isn't that neat?). Rank is my kind of psychologist (although his behavior with Nin was, in my opinion grossly unethical. He claimed it worked, though, so who am I...?)

Here's more about Dr. Rank, my kinda man:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Rank

Rank was the first to propose that separation from outworn thoughts, emotions and behaviors is the quintessence of psychological growth and development. In the late 1920s, after he left Freud’s inner circle, Rank explored how human beings can learn to assert their will within relationships, and advocated a maximum degree of individuation (or "difference") within a maximum degree of connectedness (or "likeness"). Human beings need to experience both separation and union, without endlessly vacillating between the two poles.

Rank was the first to see therapy as a learning and unlearning experience. The therapeutic relationship allows the patient to: (1) learn more creative ways of thinking, feeling and being in the here-and-now; and (2) unlearn self-destructive ways of thinking, feeling and being in the here-and-now. Patterns of self-destruction ("neurosis") represent a failure of creativity not, as Freud assumed, a retreat from sexuality.

Rank's psychology of creativity has recently been applied to action learning, an inquiry-based process of group problem solving, team building, leadership development and organizational learning (Kramer 2007; 2008). The heart of action learning is asking wicked questions to promote the unlearning or letting go of taken-for-granted assumptions and beliefs. Questions allow group members to “step out of the frame of the prevailing ideology,” as Rank wrote in Art and Artist (1932/1989, p. 70), reflect on their assumptions and beliefs, and reframe their choices. The process of “stepping out” of a frame, out of a form of knowing – a prevailing ideology – is analogous to the work of artists as they struggle to give birth to fresh ways of seeing the world, perspectives that allow them to see aspects of the world that no artists, including themselves, have ever seen before.

The most creative artists, such as Rembrandt, Michelangelo and Leonardo, know how to separate even from their own greatest public successes, from earlier artistic incarnations of themselves. Their “greatness consists precisely in this reaching out beyond themselves, beyond the ideology which they have themselves fostered,” according to Art and Artist (Rank, 1932/1989, p. 368). Through the lens of Otto Rank’s work on understanding art and artists, action learning can be seen as the never-completed process of learning how to “step out of the frame” of the ruling mindset, whether one’s own or the culture’s – in other words, of learning how to unlearn.

Have I ever asked "wicked questions?" Was this wicked?: Why Do You Have Children? (http://www.thomhartmann.com/users/alberto-ceras/blog/2012/04/why-do-you-have-children-aka-why-have-children) It seemed to have worked for Rank, so why not? Anyone around here eager to "separate from outworn thoughts?" Well, I phrased it "bust out of the box," while Rank (more colorfully) put it “step out of the frame.”

As Rank wrote about incest, creativity and much more his work and his ideas are singularly appropriate for this free-wheeling discussion, polemic, interchange, feud (Freud) – whatever you want to call it.

Alberto Ceras
Want to read Rank's own words

Want to read Rank's own words on incest and creativity? You couldn't go wrong picking up a copy of this book (read a short excerpt from a review below):

http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=paq.066.0126a

(1997). Psychoanalytic Quarterly, 66:126-131

The Incest Theme In Literature And Legend. Fundamentals Of A Psychology Of Literary Creation.: By Otto Rank. Translated by Gregory C. Richter. Baltimore/London: The Johns Hopkins University Press, 1992. 619 pp.

Review by: Jay Martin

It is astonishing to realize that for eighty years following its original publication in German, no English translation existed of Otto Rank's greatest book, The Incest Theme in Literature and Legend, a work that Freud himself said took “first place” among “the strictly scientific applications of analysis to literature.” The book has become as legendary as its subject. Now, at last, it is available in an excellent translation of the first edition of 1912. (A study of Rank's revisions for the edition of 1926 has yet to be made.) Rank's work is very helpfully put into context in a fine introductory essay written by Peter L. Rudnytsky, author of Freud and Oedipus (1987). Detailed, perceptive, scholarly, and graciously written, Rudnytsky's essay is perfectly designed to assist any reader in moving with confidence into Rank's large and complicated work.

Have you read it, Natural Lefty? I'd be interested in your take on it.

Alberto Ceras
What's this? No more

What's this? No more comments?   Oh, I'm so forlorn, why was I born?

And just when it was going so...so...help me out here good buddy, will you?

Ah, right, right! Swimmingly, perfect!

Otto, you always have the precise word.

Now, where was I? Oh, yes.

Just when it was going so swimmingly.

My god Otto, that's the problem! Nobody here knows how to swim

Alberto Ceras
I did get a response or two

I did get a response or two from Calperson over on another blog of mine. But I don’t know if she’s a he or what so I don’t know just how it would fit in here.  Anyway, here they are. Some of you might find them useful.

You truly are vile and disgusting! You speak the words of, and dream of the power of Satan himself. Evil personified.

At least we know that Satan himself is a he. Thanks for clearing that up, Cal. Last night I dreamed of being on the beach at Waikiki. I wish i had had the power of Satan in my dream. I washed out on my first wave (dreamily speaking).

Only the most vile of creatures dreams of having the power to extinguish all of humanity.

You might want to substitute “vilest” for "most vile." Better grammar.

She/he may be right, I don’t know. Are my words Satan’s words? Are Satan's words my words? I'm confused. Nothing new there. Am I the vilest (see how much better that is?) of creatures? Evil personified, Cal? Does that mean that I’m the real Mr. McCoy?

Skip the gold medals, Cperson, and no checks, please. I only deal in cash - right there on the ole barrel head. Or is it barrel-head? Or barrelhead? Satan knows. Or should that be "God knows."? More confusion. Who knows?

media_muse
Uncontrolled undeniably

Uncontrolled

undeniably correct!

Not sure where we're getting though.

Alberto Ceras wrote:

Now we’re getting somewhere! My uncontrolled experiment in Man Woman Relations is progressing quite nicely right here on the old TH Community, live and in FHDTV (well, for those who have it). Let’s see if I can keep it rolling (roiling?). Who knows when or where it might (m)end.

"Alberto" - you still have not addressed the genesis of this mess - the deliberate mis-title of the blog. But that's ok. Clearly we disagree. I have no problem with that.

Don't ya know - the best fart catcher is a Palin / Bachmann tea bag. After that it's Trumps hair piece.

FunnnnnnY you are  - must be those gonads! BTW are you aware - from your psychoanalytical pursuit of communication problems between the sexes - this area has been researched in an extremely academically scholarly fashion by John Gottman?

In your response to me you have managed to do ALL the male habituated communication avoidance behaviors Gottman mentions in his scholarly observations of male /female relating. He has excellent writings of his scholarly research which creates the underlying cause for frustration and angst you are experiencing. He's one of the main go to guys for male / female relating - right up your alley "Alberto" - if your up for the work.

John Mordecai Gottman (born April 26, 1942) is a Professor emeritus in psychology known for his work on marital stability and relationship analysis through scientific direct observations published in peer-reviewed literature. The lessons derived from this work represent a partial basis for the relationship counseling movement which aim to improve relationship functioning and the avoidance of those behaviors shown by Gottman and other researchers to harm human relationships.[1] Dr. Gottman is a Professor Emeritus of psychology at the University of Washington.

Alberto Ceras wrote:

A couple things stand out for me here on TH, maybe some of you have noticed it too. Women (1) don’t listen - better said, don't read and (2) they must, absolutely must, have the last word.

Alberto Ceras
What say, Otto? How about a

What say, Otto? How about a little sing-along while we wait. Cmon, Satan, don't be shy. You're welcome to join in. Can't carry a tune? No matter, it's the message that counts, right?

"There once was an Indian maid..."

No, no Satan. Not that one!

"Oooooh say can you see..."

That's better, Bub.

media_muse
Not today thanks! Maybe after

Not today thanks! Maybe after you read some of John Gottman's work - create some open space for the pursuit of new ideas....

Alberto Ceras wrote:

Want to read Rank's own words on incest and creativity? You couldn't go wrong picking up a copy of this book (read a short excerpt from a review below):

In the meanwhile I'm going with this: "The emotional impoverishment of psychoanalysis," wrote Ernest Becker (1973) in The Denial of Death, which was strongly influenced by Rank's ideas, "must extend also to many analysts themselves and to psychiatrists who come under its ideology. This fact helps explain the terrible deadness of emotion that one experiences in psychiatric settings, the heavy weight of the character armor erected against the world" (p. 195n).

media_muse
when all else fails gonad

when all else fails

gonad holders

go "sperminator " - behold ~ sperminating change of topic ~ again!

The idea that creativity development in woman - through incestuous relations is not new. Nor is it creative. Must be something to the Oedipal complex concept we got from frustrated Freud - and its keeping you in your blind spot "Alberto". Your foray here is the third dialogue I've had in about 30 years about the same subject. Hmm...I say ....I find it telling that this MALE "concept" of the alleged incestous creativivity boost only comes from the GONAD holders - males. Hmm...what is it about those gonads? BTW, the last time, like this time, the gonad holder fancied himself as "highly creative". So creative - he found himself - in his thing-king was that he could go down the path of incestous creativity thinking - in away no other could.

 I wonder - why do only the gonadmen go in this direction?  Men are particularly infatuated with the scholarly approach - academically correct wording. Oh yeah, "scholarly"  is the required proof for the heterosexual males belief that Father- Daughter incestuous love is the priming opportunity for an expansive thinking freely behaving female.

I would find the subject more balanced if - well.....it was balanced....even just a few other balanced examples - on all the effects incest has on the person to whom it was done.. There no flip side to the Nin's take on her Fathers incestuous mis-use of her. No scholarly beautiful writing on the trauma /horror of the daughters damaged psyche by enduring being used by her protector - her "Father" - for his own self absorbed needs. The mention here of many great artists - Da Vinci, etc, ALL male - completely skews your argument - in my opinion - by the absence of the female.

It obvious from the responses here that I am not alone in puzzlement of the catawhompus way you gave us your take on male female relations. No wonder things are such a Mess!

Alberto Ceras wrote:

Want to read Rank's own words on incest and creativity? You couldn't go wrong picking up a copy of this book (read a short excerpt from a review below):

http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=paq.066.0126a

(1997). Psychoanalytic Quarterly, 66:126-131

The Incest Theme In Literature And Legend. Fundamentals Of A Psychology Of Literary Creation.: By Otto Rank. Translated by Gregory C. Richter. Baltimore/London: The Johns Hopkins University Press, 1992. 619 pp.

Review by: Jay Martin

It is astonishing to realize that for eighty years following its original publication in German, no English translation existed of Otto Rank's greatest book, The Incest Theme in Literature and Legend, a work that Freud himself said took “first place” among “the strictly scientific applications of analysis to literature.” The book has become as legendary as its subject. Now, at last, it is available in an excellent translation of the first edition of 1912. (A study of Rank's revisions for the edition of 1926 has yet to be made.) Rank's work is very helpfully put into context in a fine introductory essay written by Peter L. Rudnytsky, author of Freud and Oedipus (1987). Detailed, perceptive, scholarly, and graciously written, Rudnytsky's essay is perfectly designed to assist any reader in moving with confidence into Rank's large and complicated work.

You've accepted superstitions out of the historical past - glorified ideas on incest - taking them out of their historical context - in to the present day. Yet ignore contemporary research and studies which have focused on the damaging biological and psychological effects on the human psyche.The biblical stories - also based on ancient superstitions - apparently gettin' a revival on here - scary.

Alberto Ceras wrote:

What's this? No more comments?     Oh, I'm so forlorn, why was I born?   And just when it was going so...so...help me out here good buddy, will you?

Alberto Ceras
Wonders never cease! We got a

Wonders never cease! We got a response guys! Hold up on that next song until there's another pause. Here're the words, practice up on it (Thanks to ATHSS or something like that for reminding us of it. Blue would never forgive us if we forgot):

Illegitimum non carborundum;

Domine salvum fac.Illegitimum non carborundum;

Domine salvum fac.Gaudeamus igitur!

Veritas non sequitur?

Illegitimum non carborundum—ipso facto!

Meantime stay out of trouble, OK? I'm talking to you, B.B. Yeah, you with that thing sticking out. 

Alberto Ceras
Maybe we ought to pack it in,

Maybe we ought to pack it in, guys. Next time, OK? With a little more angst.

media_muse
Hmm..I wonder - what did

Hmm..I wonder - what did Tessa Vanvlerah learned from her creativity lessons of  incest? Not exactly a literary genius... .What other possilibities? Oh well, guess all incest doesn't work the ways the gonads think it does. There's no denying  the forensic trail - which has more validity - to my mind - of the true path that incest paves for those victimized by their self absorbed pricky protector. AND,  the forensics are more reliable than the philosophoical musings of how to develop creativy via the "incest" protocol for the FEMALE.

Woman Sentenced To 2 Life Sentences For Raping Infant Daughter

CLAYTON, Mo. -- A judge sentenced a Missouri woman to consecutive life prison terms for sexually assaulting her infant daughter along with a California man she met online.

Vanvlerah pleaded guilty in January to incest, statutory sodomy and statutory rape in the attacks against her daughter, who is 3 but who was 5 months old when the pair first attacked her. The woman who fostered and then adopted the girl said initially, the girl would scream when anyone bathed her or changed her diaper. She still has night terrors and asks at each bedtime to make sure nobody else comes into the home.

However, she said the girl is improving day by day and "is no longer Tessa's plaything and she is no longer Tessa's child."

 Vanvlerah was arrested in 2010 following the arrest of 49-year-old Kenneth Kyle, a California State University East Bay professor, on child pornography charges. Along with hundreds of child porn images on Kyle's computers, investigators found information that led them to the St. Louis area, where Kyle had visited Vanvlerah four times in five months since meeting online. During those visits, prosecutors say the pair had sex with the girl and each other at various hotels.

Kyle pleaded guilty to a federal child sexual abuse charge and was sentenced in March to 37 1/2 years in prison.

Forensic psychologist Dr. Brooke Kraushaar testified at Vanvlerah's sentencing hearing that Vanvlerah's dependent-personality disorder caused her to participate in Kyle's sexual fantasies, even though she knew sex acts involving the baby were wrong.

Kraushaar, who was hired by defense lawyers Brent Labovitz and Kevin Whiteley, described Vanvlerah as "a passive offender." She said Vanvlerah was so afraid of being rejected by others that she also allowed Kyle to choke, burn and urinate on her.

But assistant prosecutor Kathi Alizadeh disputed the diagnosis, pointing out that Vanvlerah exercised free will in electronic communications with another man. Vanvlerah carved her nickname for the man, "Lord Nikon," into her skin at his request, the prosecutor said, but drew the line at one of his suggestions involving bestiality.

Alizadeh said police learned that Vanvlerah and another man, from Avon, Mo., exchanged child porn and discussed plans for him to come to St. Louis to have sex with the infant, but it was never acted upon.

 

In 2008, when Vanvlerah was 18, a woman obtained a court order of protection against her, accusing her of seducing and having sex with the woman's 16-year-old autistic son. Alizadeh said it resulted in Vanvlerah's pregnancy.

media_muse
Here you are "Alberto" male

Here you are "Alberto"

male female relating...

Alberto Ceras wrote:

What's this? No more comments? 

Busted! 6 Gender Myths in the Bedroom & Beyond | Casual Sex ...www.livescience.com/16900-busted-gender-myths-bedroom.html

Busted! 6 Gender Myths in the Bedroom & Beyond. Stephanie Pappas, LiveScience Senior Writer. Date: 09 November 2011 Time: 04:51 AM ET. FOLLOW US ...

"Thinking about 'ideal' elicits more stereotypical thoughts about women and men — and what women and men 'should' do," Conley wrote in an email to LiveScience. "When someone evaluates a real person, it is a little different."

Because guys are traditionally the ones who make the first move, women may simply get more of a chance to be choosy. Perhaps, Conley and her colleagues wrote, women's pickiness is tied more to dating rules than to innate desires.

Conley said that these against-the-grain studies highlight the importance of following the data to their conclusion, even when that conclusion isn't what you'd expect.

"Psychologists  –  including me  –  always have to be looking beyond their own biases. They need to avoid getting so attached to a particular theory or perspective that they go out of their way to protect the theory," Conley said. "Data should be the guide, and you have to look at data in every way you can think of to see if the story you are telling is really the best one."

This article FYI also helpful on gender relating...

Why Men and Women Differ...   

 

 

media_muse
Here another wonder for

Here another

wonder for you..."The illicit nature of it can make it more exciting." "

Alberto Ceras wrote:

Wonders never cease! We got a response guys!

Hmm....in reading this wonder - "The illicit nature of it can make it more exciting." "Is this the foundation for some males belief that incest spices up the little woman - more excitement for their own pleasure.... I  wonder....?

"....In fact, research shows that men who buy sex do so for a variety of reasons, many of which vary by culture. Social acceptance of prostitution makes it more likely for men to seek out prostitutes, as do certain sexual attitudes. For some men, the risk is part of the appeal.

"One of the motivations behind seeking prostitutes for some men is that there's something exciting or risky about it," said Martin Monto, a sociologist at the University of Portland who has researched prostitution. "The illicit nature of it can make it more exciting." "

Secret Service Scandal: Why Men Risk Their Jobs To Buy Sex

Huffington Post‎ - 2 days ago By: Stephanie Pappas, LiveScience Senior Writer Published: 04/27/2012 06:51 PM EDT on LiveScience The Secret Service is running an ...

"..... "Johns" — or men who visit prostitutes — are not easy to study, given the secretive and often illegal nature of their sexual habits. Researchers have traditionally focused on the supply side of the prostitution equation, interviewing sex workers and trying to understand how women get into the business. (Women who visit prostitutes are even less studied, in part because they're much rarer than men who do so. According to news reports, the first legal male prostitute catering to women in Nevada, where prostitution is allowed, quit after two months, having served fewer than 10 customers.) [Busted! 6 Gender Myths in the Bedroom & Beyond]

I can sperminate here - make the same analogy to the study of men who secretively screw their daughters - who knows how we'll ever really know ? They won't tell us that there are involved in the secret protocol of creativity consciousness raising - by screwing their daughters! How are we going to get scholarly about this is the Daddies don't tell us what they are really doing. Since the screwing of daughters - otherwise know as incest - is NOT TABOO. THE TABOO is in the TALKING ABOUT THE SCREWING - otherwise called "INCEST" .

"Alberto"  put up a link - http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/laurie-penny-real-men-want-to-talk-about-sex--when-are-we-going-to-start-listening-7665812.html

He wants us to listen but he won't talk about it  ~?

He wants to say his part but he doesn't want to hear the other parts.....Geez,  no wonder things are so messed up.....

Alberto Ceras
More to come. Don't go away.

More to come. Don't go away.

Alberto Ceras
OK, guys. I’m back. But I’ve

OK, guys. I’m back. But I’ve got to finish this class, won’t take long. Otto you can come in if you want but the AC is on the fritz. I don’t want it to get any hotter. You better stay outside, B.B.

Don’t say that.

Why? It’s short for Beelzebub, why mind?

It gets me confused with that other guy.

You mean Bibi, Netanyahu.

Yeah, the creepy son of a prick wants my job.

Some think he’s already got it.

Not yet, but he’s trying. Use my real name.

What’s that?

Lucifer S. Devil, the Second.

OK, Luce. But why second, why not junior?

No senior, no junior.

Makes sense. But second?

I’m second in command, below that guy up there.

I get it. Look, I’ll just be a couple of minutes. Got to finish the demonstration. Hang out here in the hall.

Students, as I was saying, "Trying to reason with a woman is like trying to catch a fart with a butterfly net." Now, this is a butterfly net…Oh, god! That was awful.

Just trying to help out, doc.

Well, that won’t get you any brownie points.

Yes, it did.

Oh.

Can we go clean up?

Yeah, girls, you’d better. I’ll wait. The rest room is…No, no. not that one, that’s the men’s!

It’s a public restroom, right?

Well yes,  but…

And our tax dollars paid for it.

So…

And we’ve got equal rights with men.

All right, all right. Have at it. But a word of caution – avoid the urinals.

Why? We have our rights!

Well, then, stand close. I don’t know how you’ll manage, though, if you’re wearing…

We’re not.

Oh, I see. But it spatters. You know, like a cow…

Cut the shit, old man, you creepy son of a prick. We’ve had lots of practice.

OK, OK. God, why can’t I call a slut a slut? Now…What the… What happened to my students? They’re gone. Couldn’t stand it, I guess. Me either, I’ve got to throw up. No, no. I  forgot. That one’s occupied. Oh, well, I’ve got the right…

Guys, Otto, LSD, what the hell are you doing in the ladies?

We got the right.

But why did you piss on the floor, for god’s sake?

No urinals.

But there are…

We’re protesting.

What?

That there’re no urinals. There should be urinals in every public restroom. Equal rights. You know.

That doesn’t make sense.

Look, they put diaper changing stations in the men’s rooms, didn’t they?

Well, yes, but…

So there you are.

I’ve had it. I’m  going for a sex change.

You’re going to become a girl?

No. A hermaphrodite. Prick, balls, vagina, ovaries – totally self-contained, self-bisexual and more. And here's the best part: I can have incestuous sex with my self, whenever I want it.

Wouldn’t it be better to have an orchidectomy? Become a drone?

Don’t use that word!

Why not? The bees do.

It’s classified.

But I saw one this morning, right above…

Forget it.

OK. But what if you have children? You know, all those birth defects.

No chance. Ligation, vasectomy. Double sterility, doubly sterile.

But you may be psychologically damaged!

What, with orgasms and ejaculations both, all at once, whenever I want? No time to think about it.

You’ll be breaking the law.

Don’t ask, don’t tell.

Right, didn’t think of that. By god, Lucie, maybe we ought to, too.

Way ahead of you, Otto. You think the girls might…

We’ll pick them up on the way. This may be the new wave, universal, bisexual, all-in-one!

The end of prostitution. No more Secret Service scandals.

And no more children.

Alberto will be pleased.

One thing bothers me, doc - may be a kink in the plan.

What’s that, Otto?

I don’t think it will bend that far.

Later, we’ll work it out. What’s that book you’ve got there?

Shakespeare.

Which one?

“Taming of the Shrew.”

As you like it. All's well that ends well.

THE END

 

 

 

                                                    

 

media_muse
What about the  - "Taming of

What about the  -

"Taming of the Gonads" - or

"Taming of the Prick" ?

Ignore King Lear.....

And, "Father Knows Best"

media_muse
More on "Male Female

More on "Male Female Relations" -

U think these women - Martha & Lorena - missed their training - on how to relate to the male?  ~ Looks like it since they won't go along with the what "guys" think is the appropriate appreciation for THEIR female workers.....

"Martha Reyes walked in the employee entrance of the Santa Clara Hyatt Regency to the sound of her male colleagues laughing.

She believed they were laughing at her.

It was “Housekeeping Appreciation Week” at the Hyatt and to celebrate, a digitally altered photo collage of Hyatt Housekeepers' faces -- including Martha’s and her sister Lorena’s -- superimposed on bikini-clad cartoon-bodies was posted on a bulletin board at work.

She felt humiliated and embarrassed. But she knew her sister Lorena -- also a housekeeper at Hyatt -- would be even more so. Martha tore the posters of her and her sister down. Then, with management present, a coworker told Martha she needed to return the photos.

She refused and said if they wanted it back, they'd have to take her to court.

Hyatt management fired Martha and Lorena just a few weeks later.

Sign our petition to Hyatt CEO Mark Hoplamazian asking him to apologize to Martha and Lorena and reinstate them with full back-pay. The Reyes sisters and community allies will deliver it next week to Hyatt officials.

They were fired for allegedly taking too long on their lunch break. But we don't buy that excuse for a second. Here's why:

Martha and Lorena worked at that hotel as housekeepers for 7 and 24 years respectively. During that time, the Reyes sisters were good employees. On the day she was fired, the HR Director told Martha she was an "excellent worker" and that there hadn't been any complaints about her. Before the day Lorena was fired, she had never in her 24 years been written up for a single break violation.

The firing of the Reyes sisters is a new low, even for Hyatt.

What happened to the Reyes sisters is just another example of Hyatt's culture of disrespect for its workers: Hyatt housekeepers have high rates of injury, and in 2011 various state and federal agencies issued 18 citations against Hyatt for alleged safety violations. Hyatt has even lobbied against new laws that would make housekeeping work safer.

Martha is the mother of five children and fears she may lose her house. Lorena is a mother of three and is struggling as the sole supporter of her family. As long-time employees of Hyatt, the Reyes sisters deserve some basic decency and the right to complain about their workplace without being fired.

As potential Hyatt customers, we have to draw the line. Sexually degrading housekeeping staff is unacceptable by any measure and the CEO of should take responsibility for Hyatt's culture of disrespect for its workers now."

From SumOfUs.org  Tell Hyatt CEO Mark Hoplamazian to apologize to the Reyes sisters and reinstate them with full back-pay.

Spectator
Spectator's picture
A serious discussion? Anyone?

A serious discussion? Anyone?

media_muse
BTW, Professor "Alberto" who'

BTW,

Professor

"Alberto"

who's gonna get you out of your box?

Alberto wrote:

I see you, Zenzoe, as confined in your box of feminism and never likely to get out of it.

media_muse
Seriously let's start with

Seriously

let's start with this -

the impact of incest on creativity....

Deborah King: Oprah: Incest Revisited

 www.huffingtonpost.com/.../oprah-incest-revisited_b_323565.htmlOct 16, 2009 – It's the secret nature of incest that keeps its victims tied up in knots of guilt ... the bombshell on Oprah Winfrey last week about her decade-long ... 
  

As I and all other survivors of incest know, we have to speak out in order to start healing. Mackenzie Phillips broke the silence about her long-term incestuous relationship with her father in her book, High on Arrival; Katherine Harrison did it in hers, The Kiss. I wrote about incest with my father in my book, Truth Heals: What You Hide Can Hurt You. Some may only need to speak it aloud in the privacy of a therapist's office rather than on national TV, but countless others keep the secret of incest firmly barricaded in the closet, and continue to suffer the emotional and physical fallout.

My father started molesting me when I was two, raped me when I was nine, and continued to do so until my last year of elementary school. It took years and years of trying to repress the memories with drugs and alcohol and promiscuity, followed by years and years of 12-step programs and therapy and meditation and a loving husband to clear out the physical and emotional damage from the incest. Ultimately, I became an expert on abuse and have worked with thousands of abuse victims, helping them recover. Yet even I was triggered by watching the guests on Oprah's follow-up show about incest.

I remembered a time in my early thirties, when my father, then in his 70s, was diagnosed with terminal cancer. He had always wanted to go see the Vatican and St Peter's, but my mother wasn't interested in travel. He said, "I've only got six months to live. I want to go to Rome now." My mother looked at him, then said to me: "You take him." She was basically saying: "Taking care of daddy is your job. It's always been your job."

Although the sexual contact had stopped when I was 13, as an adult, I was daddy's law partner, his companion, his closest friend. Daddy's girl. I adored him and did everything I could to please him. When Oprah said to Katherine Harrison: "But you weren't four years old [when the incest started], you were twenty!"--I understood that, inside, Katherine was still age four, although she was 20, and still desperate for attention from her father, desperate for his love . . . in any form. Any adult who has missed an important piece of their childhood (she had only seen her father twice while growing up, and had been abandoned by her mother at age five), can wind up filling the gap any way they can.

I did plenty of outrageous gap-filling in my teens and early twenties, but ever since I was 13, I had always drawn the line about being alone with daddy. I took a friend when I went on overnight ski trips with him. On business trips, I made sure someone else was with us. I certainly wasn't going to go to Rome with him alone. So we all went: one big happy family. Each night, though it had been so many years since the incest, I locked the door to my single room.

Mackenzie has done everyone a huge favor by acting as our societal point person for incest and speaking out very publicly. I applaud her courage. Silence is a major part of the problem of abuse. It takes a brave soul to break the code of silence: "This is our secret; DON'T TELL!" With an implied or direct threat of consequences--OR ELSE--if we do tell. It's the secret nature of incest that keeps its victims tied up in knots of guilt and shame, feeling "dirty" and fearing the way they will be judged by others should they dare to speak their truth. With good cause. After Mackenzie Phillips revealed her secret on the Oprah show initially, she was accused of being a liar, of peddling her "filthy garbage" solely for the money, and of speaking only when her father was dead so he couldn't defend himself against her lies.

When a victim refuses to be silenced, speaking up can heal much of the damage from the abuse. Until then, they often continue to deal with substance abuse, ill-health, promiscuity, depression, anxiety, and a host of other emotional and physical problems. Being able to speak your truth is an important part of the healing process from any trauma--and incest is a traumatic event, whether it's a one-time rape or an ongoing 30-year "relationship."

So bravo to all of you who have been willing to add your voice to our growing chorus of incest survivors who refuse to be victims any longer, who are brave enough to say "This is what happened to me, but it doesn't define who I am." You are well on your way to recovery--and to helping others do the same.

   

Follow Deborah King on Twitter: www.twitter.com/Deborah_King

 

 

 

 

Spectator wrote:

A serious discussion? Anyone?

Alberto Ceras
A serious discussion would

A serious discussion would focus on the subject, in this case Man Woman Relations. It would help the discussion - on incest at least - to begin on common ground. These might help:

 http://www.thefreedictionary.com/incest

1. Sexual relations between persons who are so closely related that their marriage is illegal or forbidden by custom.

2. The statutory crime of sexual relations with such a near relative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incest

Incest is sexual intercourse between close relatives that is usually illegal in the jurisdiction where it takes place and/or is conventionally considered a taboo. The term may apply to sexual activities between: individuals of close "blood relationship"; members of the same household; step relatives related by adoption or marriage; and members of the same clan or lineage. See also Laws regarding incest.

Consensual adult incest is seen by some as a victimless crime. However, children born of incestuous unions have greatly increased risk of death and disability at least in part due to genetic diseases caused by the inbreeding.

Although it is illegal or partially prohibited in most countries, Russia, China, the Netherlands, Spain, France, Turkey, Israel and the Ivory Coast have no legal prohibitions on consensual incest between adults, and Switzerland has considered legalizing it.

A serious discussion would NOT be a mud slinging contest, it would not resort to name calling, it would not become personal in any way. Period.

It does not help this discussion to list instances of damage, physical or mental, to an incest victim or to children of an incestuous relationship. Anyone resonably mature and alert knows all this. I'm not belittling the damage. It's real and I'm certainly aware of it but it doesn't push this particular discussion forward.

These questions, and others, concerning incest need to be discussed:

How frequent is incest?

Is incest more frequent now or in the past? Why or why not?

Who are the parties involved?

Why does it occur?

Can it be prevented? How?

If it can't be totally eliminated can the incidence of it be reduced? How?

Are there controllable factors that contribute to incest?

But the subject was NOT just about incest. The subject was Man Woman Relations. Serious questions concerning man/woman relations, apart from incest, might include:

How have man/woman relations changed in the last 50 or so years?

What factors have contributed to these changes?

Has the feminist movement affected man/woman relations? In what way?

Has "women's liberation" affected (1) the family: (2) husband-wife relations, (3) relations with children, (4) children's behavior?.How, in what ways?

Are women more sexually liberated today than, say, 50 years ago and how does that affect man/woman relations?

(I copied this from another blog, maybe not exactly:

Just in time for Mother's Day:

"Twilight" fan fiction, Mommy porn: “Fifty Shades of Grey" (and the sequels).  But they're for the fairer sex, don't read them, guys.)

What external factors in today's society affect man/woman relations? Unemployment, possible alienation by technology, consumerism, television, etc.

Is it true or not, as some men claim, that "Trying to reason with a woman is like trying to eat soup with a fork." If it isn't true, why isn't it? If it isn't true why do quite a few men think that it is?

These are only a few questions that I consider serious and worth discussing. I'm sure that there are many others.

No name calling, no vulgar or snide remarks, no personal attacks please.

media_muse
Professor Alberto - here you

Professor Alberto - here you are making more rules for us while simultaneously ignoring them for your self....It might be possible to have a discussion about Male Female Relations. But not like this - with double standards & snide remarks.

Alberto Ceras wrote:

A serious discussion would focus on the subject, in this case Man Woman Relations. It would help the discussion - on incest at least - to begin on common ground. These might help:.....

Is it true or not, as some men claim, that "Trying to reason with a woman is like trying to eat soup with a fork." If it isn't true, why isn't it? If it isn't true why do quite a few men think that it is?

These are only a few questions that I consider serious and worth discussing. I'm sure that there are many others.

No name calling, no vulgar or snide remarks, no personal attacks please.

Ah yes...the favored male privilege technique - "do as I say not as I do". Here's a snide one from you:

Alberto Ceras wrote:

Is it true or not, as some men claim, that "Trying to reason with a woman is like trying to eat soup with a fork." If it isn't true, why isn't it? If it isn't true why do quite a few men think that it is?

From what I read here your intention is to then take this into the subject of incest & creativity. You want to control what is said around both topics. You would censor one main issue - the profound damage of incest. This control also controls the outcome and nature of the topic discussion. You have given a cursory acknowledgment here about the damaging impact of incest. How can you have a complete overview or any full understanding with out taking into consideration ALL the parts? Why wouldn't they be considered as in the pro's and the con's?

This thought experiment of yours seems doomed. I am reminded how right from the beginning - with the conception of the project for a research experiment - the experiment and the outcome -  are influenced by how the experimenter thinks & approaches the situation.

Hmm...it looks to me that the outcome has been decided - by the decider.

media_muse
Mindfully seriously creativel

Mindfully

seriously

creatively

today I am inspired by reading Ernest Callenbach "Epistle to the Ecotopians" .

To my mind, his headings as given below - Hope, Mutual support, Practical skills - provide a more suitable foundation for the parameters in the discussion around "Female Male Relations". I find Callenbach's terms more spacious, forward thinking and allowing - in a practical realistic way - to the sea of changes are ALL swimming in....  

To all brothers and sisters who hold the dream in their hearts of a future world in which humans and all other beings live in harmony and mutual support - a world of sustainability, stability, and confidence. A world something like the one I described, so long ago, in Ecotopia and Ecotopia Emerging."

Hope.Children exude hope, even under the most terrible conditions, and that must inspire us as our conditions get worse. Hopeful patients recover better. Hopeful test candidates score better. Hopeful builders construct better buildings. Hopeful parents produce secure and resilient children. In groups, an atmosphere of hope is essential to shared successful effort: “Yes, we can!” is not an empty slogan, but a mantra for people who intend to do something together - whether it is rescuing victims of hurricanes, rebuilding flood-damaged buildings on higher ground, helping wounded people through first aid, or inventing new social structures (perhaps one in which only people are “persons,” not corporations). We cannot know what threats we will face. But ingenuity against adversity is one of our species’ built-in resources. We cope, and faith in our coping capacity is perhaps our biggest resource of all.

Mutual support. The people who do best at basic survival tasks (we know this experimentally, as well as intuitively) are cooperative, good at teamwork, often altruistic, mindful of the common good. In drastic emergencies like hurricanes or earthquakes, people surprise us by their sacrifices - of food, of shelter, even sometimes of life itself. Those who survive social or economic collapse, or wars, or pandemics, or starvation, will be those who manage scarce resources fairly; hoarders and dominators win only in the short run, and end up dead, exiled, or friendless. So, in every way we can we need to help each other, and our children, learn to be cooperative rather than competitive; to be helpful rather than hurtful; to look out for the communities of which we are a part, and on which we ultimately depend.

Practical skills. With the movement into cities of the U.S. population, and much of the rest of the world’s people, we have had a massive de-skilling in how to do practical tasks. When I was a boy in the country, all of us knew how to build a tree house, or construct a small hut, or raise chickens, or grow beans, or screw pipes together to deliver water. It was a sexist world, of course, so when some of my chums in eighth grade said we wanted to learn girls’ “home ec” skills like making bread or boiling eggs, the teachers were shocked, but we got to do it. There was widespread competence in fixing things - impossible with most modern contrivances, of course, but still reasonable for the basic tools of survival: pots and pans, bicycles, quilts, tents, storage boxes.

We all need to learn, or relearn, how we would keep the rudiments of life going if there were no paid specialists around, or means to pay them. Every child should learn elementary carpentry, from layout and sawing to driving nails. Everybody should know how to chop wood safely, and build a fire. Everybody should know what to do if dangers appear from fire, flood, electric wires down, and the like. Taking care of each other is one practical step at a time, most of them requiring help from at least one other person; survival is a team sport.

Organize. Much of the American ideology, our shared and usually unspoken assumptions, is hyper-individualistic. We like to imagine that heroes are solitary, have super powers, and glory in violence, and that if our work lives and business lives seem tamer, underneath they are still struggles red in blood and claw. We have sought solitude on the prairies, as cowboys on the range, in our dependence on media (rather than real people), and even in our cars, armored cabins of solitude. We have an uneasy and doubting attitude about government, as if we all reserve the right to be outlaws. But of course human society, like ecological webs, is a complex dance of mutual support and restraint, and if we are lucky it operates by laws openly arrived at and approved by the populace.

If the teetering structure of corporate domination, with its monetary control of Congress and our other institutions, should collapse of its own greed, and the government be unable to rescue it, we will have to reorganize a government that suits the people. We will have to know how to organize groups, how to compromise with other groups, how to argue in public for our positions. It turns out that “brainstorming,” a totally noncritical process in which people just throw out ideas wildly, doesn’t produce workable ideas. In particular, it doesn’t work as well as groups in which ideas are proposed, critiqued, improved, debated. But like any group process, this must be protected from domination by powerful people and also over-talkative people. When the group recognizes its group power, it can limit these distortions. Thinking together is enormously creative; it has huge survival value.

Learn to live with contradictions. These are dark times, these are bright times. We are implacably making the planet less habitable. Every time a new oil field is discovered, the press cheers: “Hooray, there is more fuel for the self-destroying machines!” We are turning more land into deserts and parking lots. We are wiping out innumerable species that are not only wondrous and beautiful, but might be useful to us. We are multiplying to the point where our needs and our wastes outweigh the capacities of the biosphere to produce and absorb them. And yet, despite the bloody headlines and the rocketing military budgets, we are also, unbelievably, killing fewer of each other proportionately than in earlier centuries. We have mobilized enormous global intelligence and mutual curiosity, through the Internet and outside it. We have even evolved, spottily, a global understanding that democracy is better than tyranny, that love and tolerance are better than hate, that hope is better than rage and despair, that we are prone, especially in catastrophes, to be astonishingly helpful and cooperative.

We may even have begun to share an understanding that while the dark times may continue for generations, in time new growth and regeneration will begin. In the biological process called “succession,” a desolate, disturbed area is gradually, by a predictable sequence of returning plants, restored to ecological continuity and durability. When old institutions and habits break down or consume themselves, new experimental shoots begin to appear, and people explore and test and share new and better ways to survive together.

It is never easy or simple. But already we see, under the crumbling surface of the conventional world, promising developments: new ways of organizing economic activity (cooperatives, worker-owned companies, nonprofits, trusts), new ways of using low-impact technology to capture solar energy, to sequester carbon dioxide, new ways of building compact, congenial cities that are low (or even self-sufficient) in energy use, low in waste production, high in recycling of almost everything. A vision of sustainability that sometimes shockingly resembles Ecotopia is tremulously coming into existence at the hands of people who never heard of the book.

Now in principle, the Big Picture seems simple enough, though devilishly complex in the details. We live in the declining years of what is still the biggest economy in the world, where a looter elite has fastened itself upon the decaying carcass of the empire. It is intent on speedily and relentlessly extracting the maximum wealth from that carcass, impoverishing our former working middle class. But this maggot class does not invest its profits here. By law and by stock-market pressures, corporations must seek their highest possible profits, no matter the social or national consequences - which means moving capital and resources abroad, wherever profit potential is larger. As Karl Marx darkly remarked, “Capital has no country,” and in the conditions of globalization his meaning has come clear.

The looter elite systematically exports jobs, skills, knowledge, technology, retaining at home chiefly financial manipulation expertise: highly profitable, but not of actual productive value. Through “productivity gains” and speedups, it extracts maximum profit from domestic employees; then, firing the surplus, it claims surprise that the great mass of people lack purchasing power to buy up what the economy can still produce (or import).

Here again Marx had a telling phrase: “Crisis of under-consumption.” When you maximize unemployment and depress wages, people have to cut back. When they cut back, businesses they formerly supported have to shrink or fail, adding their own employees to the ranks of the jobless, and depressing wages still further. End result: something like Mexico, where a small, filthy rich plutocracy rules over an impoverished mass of desperate, uneducated, and hopeless people.

Barring unprecedented revolutionary pressures, this is the actual future we face in the United States, too. As we know from history, such societies can stand a long time, supported by police and military control, manipulation of media, surveillance and dirty tricks of all kinds. It seems likely that a few parts of the world (Germany, with its worker-council variant of capitalism, New Zealand with its relative equality, Japan with its social solidarity, and some others) will remain fairly democratic.

The U.S., which has a long history of violent plutocratic rule unknown to the textbook-fed, will stand out as the best-armed Third World country, its population ill-fed, ill-housed, ill-educated, ill-cared for in health, and increasingly poverty-stricken: even Social Security may be whittled down, impoverishing tens of millions of the elderly.

As empires decline, their leaders become increasingly incompetent - petulant, ignorant, gifted only with PR skills of posturing and spinning, and prone to the appointment of loyal idiots to important government positions. Comedy thrives; indeed writers are hardly needed to invent outrageous events.

We live, then, in a dark time here on our tiny precious planet. Ecological devastation, political and economic collapse, irreconcilable ideological and religious conflict, poverty, famine: the end of the overshoot of cheap-oil-based consumer capitalist expansionism.

If you don’t know where you’ve been, you have small chance of understanding where you might be headed. So let me offer a capsule history for those who, like most of us, got little help from textbook history.

At 82, my life has included a surprisingly substantial slice of American history. In the century or so up until my boyhood in Appalachian central Pennsylvania, the vast majority of Americans subsisted as farmers on the land. Most, like people elsewhere in the world, were poor, barely literate, ill-informed, short-lived. Millions had been slaves. Meanwhile in the cities, vast immigrant armies were mobilized by ruthless and often violent “robber baron” capitalists to build vast industries that made things: steel, railroads, ships, cars, skyscrapers.

Then, when I was in grade school, came World War II. America built the greatest armaments industry the world had ever seen, and when the war ended with most other industrial countries in ruins, we had a run of unprecedented productivity and prosperity. Thanks to strong unions and a sympathetic government, this prosperity was widely shared: a huge working middle class evolved - tens of millions of people could afford (on one wage) a modest house, a car, perhaps sending a child to college. This era peaked around 1973, when wages stagnated, the Vietnam War took a terrible toll in blood and money, and the country began sliding rightward.

In the next epoch, which we are still in and which may be our last as a great nation, capitalists who grew rich and powerful by making things gave way to a new breed: financiers who grasped that you could make even more money by manipulating money. (And by persuading Congress to subsidize them - the system should have been called Subsidism, not Capitalism.) They had no concern for the productivity of the nation or the welfare of its people; with religious fervor, they believed in maximizing profit as the absolute economic goal. They recognized that, by capturing the government through the election finance system and removing government regulation, they could turn the financial system into a giant casino.

Little by little, they hollowed the country out, until it was helplessly dependent on other nations for almost all its necessities. We had to import significant steel components from China or Japan. We came to pay for our oil imports by exporting food (i.e., our soil). Our media and our educational system withered. Our wars became chronic and endless and stupefyingly expensive. Our diets became suicidal, and our medical system faltered; life expectancies began to fall.

And so we have returned, in a sort of terrible circle, to something like my boyhood years, when President Roosevelt spoke in anger of “one third of a nation ill-housed, ill-fed, ill-clothed.” A large and militant contingent of white, mostly elderly, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant right wingers, mortally threatened by their impending minority status and pretending to be liberty-lovers, desperately seek to return us still further back.

Americans like to think of ours as an exceptional country, immune through geographical isolation and some kind of special virtue to the tides of history. Through the distorted lens of our corporate media, we possess only a distorted view of what the country is really like now. In the next decades, we shall see whether we indeed possess the intelligence, the strength, and the mutual courage to break through to another positive era.

No futurist can foresee the possibilities. As empires decay, their civilian leaderships become increasingly crazed, corrupt, and incompetent, and often the military (which is after all a parasite of the whole nation, and has no independent financial base like the looter class) takes over. Another possible scenario is that if the theocratic red center of the country prevails in Washington, the relatively progressive and prosperous coastal areas will secede in self-defense.

Ecotopia is a novel, and secession was its dominant metaphor: how would a relatively rational part of the country save itself ecologically if it was on its own? As Ecotopia Emerging puts it, Ecotopia aspired to be a beacon for the rest of the world. And so it may prove, in the very, very long run, because the general outlines of Ecotopia are those of any possible future sustainable society.

The "ecology in one country" argument was an echo of an actual early Soviet argument, as to whether "socialism in one country" was possible. In both cases, it now seems to me, the answer must be no. We are now fatally interconnected, in climate change, ocean impoverishment, agricultural soil loss, etc., etc., etc. International consumer capitalism is a self-destroying machine, and as long as it remains the dominant social form, we are headed for catastrophe; indeed, like rafters first entering the "tongue" of a great rapid, we are already embarked on it.

When disasters strike and institutions falter, as at the end of empires, it does not mean that the buildings all fall down and everybody dies. Life goes on, and in particular, the remaining people fashion new institutions that they hope will better ensure their survival.

So I look to a long-term process of "succession," as the biological concept has it, where "disturbances" kill off an ecosystem, but little by little new plants colonize the devastated area, prepare the soil for larger and more complex plants (and the other beings who depend on them), and finally the process achieves a flourishing, resilient, complex state - not necessarily what was there before, but durable and richly productive. In a similar way, experiments under way now, all over the world, are exploring how sustainability can in fact be achieved locally. Technically, socially, economically - since it is quite true, as ecologists know, that everything is connected to everything else, and you can never just do one thing by itself.

Since I wrote Ecotopia, I have become less confident of humans' political ability to act on commonsense, shared values. Our era has become one of spectacular polarization, with folly multiplying on every hand. That is the way empires crumble: they are taken over by looter elites, who sooner or later cause collapse. But then new games become possible, and with luck Ecotopia might be among them.

Humans tend to try to manage things: land, structures, even rivers. We spend enormous amounts of time, energy, and treasure in imposing our will on nature, on preexisting or inherited structures, dreaming of permanent solutions, monuments to our ambitions and dreams. But in periods of slack, decline, or collapse, our abilities no longer suffice for all this management. We have to let things go.

All things “go” somewhere: they evolve, with or without us, into new forms. So as the decades pass, we should try not always to futilely fight these transformations. As the Japanese know, there is much unnoticed beauty in wabi-sabi - the old, the worn, the tumble-down, those things beginning their transformation into something else. We can embrace this process of devolution: embellish it when strength avails, learn to love it.

There is beauty in weathered and unpainted wood, in orchards overgrown, even in abandoned cars being incorporated into the earth. Let us learn, like the Forest Service sometimes does, to put unwise or unneeded roads “to bed,” help a little in the healing of the natural contours, the re-vegetation by native plants. Let us embrace decay, for it is the source of all new life and growth."

Ernest Callenbach, Last Words to an America in Decline
Ernest Callenbach, TomDispatch
Ernest Callenbach, author of the acclaimed and loved utopian novel 'Ecotopia,' died of cancer last month at the age of 83. Days after his death, a final document was discovered on his computer, a last gift, his vision of a better world for us all.
READ MORE

media_muse
another kink in the topic

another kink

in the topic subject of topics

Parents and Their Children's Learning about Sexuality - seems important - the bridge - connecting the two topics - "Male Female Relations" AND "Father Daughter Incest for Creativity" - as the professor wants. Or maybe Parents and Their Children's Learning about Sexuality needs its own blog ~

I found these statements timely and provocative:

"Rarely do fathers provide any direct sexual information to their children, especially their daughters. ... Sexuality has to do with being female or male and is conditioned by the cultural and religious views we hold dear..."

"Young people need sexuality education and parents, as essential sources of information and role models, can truly influence their children's sexual development. Two parents, a single parent, a foster parent, a grandparent, or any other adult who cares for and nurtures a young person must assume this task because sexuality education involves crucial family, religious, and cultural values and convictions. Young people inevitably learn about sex and sexuality from their environment anyway, and it is evident that the environment is not always very safe or reliable, so it is up to caring adults to influence their sons' and daughters' moral development, healthy decision making abilities, self-esteem, and knowledge of, and comfort with, their own sexuality. A parent really has no choice in this matter. The only choice is whether the job will be done well or poorly.

Just What Is Sexual Learning?

Learning about sex and sexuality has been long misunderstood by parents. For many, it simply means the hasty presentation of some information on reproduction, like where babies come from, or an anatomy lesson showing that men have a penis and women have a vagina. Others may wait until their child reaches puberty and provide some information on bodily changes, sometimes discussing menstruation, but rarely ever mentioning wet dreams. With very few exceptions, these kinds of discussions are initiated and carried out by the mother or a female in the household. Rarely do fathers provide any direct sexual information to their children, especially their daughters. Many men continue to believe that their interactions with their children are important simply as sex role models and providers. Yet fathers must have a more meaningful role in this process, because they can do much to affect the emotional, social, and sexual development of their children.

Sex, to many people means genital acts, either with a partner or alone. But this definition denies the completeness of our sexuality. Sexuality has to do with being female or male and is conditioned by the cultural and religious views we hold dear. Genital sexual expression can be a very important part of a person's sexuality but it is a relatively small part of overall sexual learning. The other important elements of sexual learning are body image, gender identity, gender role, family and social role, affection, love, intimacy, relationships, sensuousness and eroticism. All these elements together form the total fabric, the full cloth of sexuality. Accordingly, parents have a wide array of themes and opportunities to discuss sexuality within this context through their daily living with their children.

Talking with them about their clothes and how they look and how their looks make them feel and providing them with your view of the role of women and men in families, in relationships and in society are unthreatening, yet critical sexual learning opportunities. Repetitions of these messages throughout their development and daily adult role modeling will provide the needed emphasis on the specific view a parent wants to convey to their child. Being certain these beliefs are shared and repeated by other adults in the household will help avoid problems with mixed and gender biased messages.

Parents can reinforce holistic sexual learning in their homes by watching almost any TV show with their son or daughter. Invariably, the message for a woman is in order to succeed, she must use her body. That is how she is recognized, receives attention, moves ahead with her friends, and gets ahead in the world of work. This is an example of a social lie that is embedded in every network and cable sitcom, in hip hop music, and in every magazine read by young women. Boys and young also men receive false messages from all the informational sources around them which regularly and strongly indicate that the way males succeed or achieve is through the use of power, force, or wealth. This is also a lie. With every opportunity, parents must assertively challenge these sexuality lies, these untruths about body image, gender and social role, and replace them with the truth. The fundamental truth is that girls and boys succeed by using their brain not their body; they succeed not by their physical appearance or strength but by the strength of their character and their moral core. Parents need to communicate with their children about the truth and then reinforce it daily with a living, authentic example.

Clearly, these issues are not about reproduction or body parts or the technology of sex; that is not needed here. What is needed is a willingness to regularly challenge what a parent sees as wrong and gently reinforce what is right, always facing and pushing through the natural developmental resistance expressed by young people towards adults whose ideas are different than others'. Staying this course takes time, patience, and endurance, but the benefits to young people are incalculable.

The beginning of wisdom for parents as they move ahead in the critical job of influencing the sexual learning of their children is to make abundantly clear, at every appropriate opportunity, in ways that are individually comfortable, that their child is loved, prized, and valued. This constitutes an extraordinarily powerful sexual message.

Parents and Their Children's Learning about Sexuality www.advocatesforyouth.org/parents/165?task=view

Advocates For Youth ... Rarely do fathers provide any direct sexual information to their children, especially their daughters. ... Sexuality has to do with being female or male and is conditioned by the cultural and religious views we hold dear.