You gotta keep 'em separated...

The Church

Science

The State

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leighmf's picture
leighmf 2 years 23 weeks ago
#1

Thank you, AG, but how does the Title "The Christian Taliban" relate to your profound pearls of advice?

There is no such thing as a Christian Taliban.

It is a mistake when people try to pair non-existent possibilities such as "Christian bigots," "Christian hypocrites, " "Christian maniacs," or what have you.

"The Christ," or Light, is Spiritual Perfection. Nothing can be added to or subtracted from Perfection. If a person is a bigot, they cannot be a Christian. A hater cannot be a Christian. A killer cannot be a Christian. Not even a neighborhood troublemaker can be a Christian. Of course, all are welcome to say they are sorry, start over and walk the disciplined path to perfection and practice the way of peace.

Whatever the culture, all perfected souls are in harmony with Christian perfection and vice versa, a state where there exists no violence nor bloodshed for any need or reason- because that is the only way we can live in unity.

Caleb's picture
Caleb 2 years 23 weeks ago
#2

Anonymous --

Seems to me you are absolutely kerrect!

Case in point! (As Rod Serling of the Twilight Zone used to say). The right wing evangelicals, the Taliban and other ultraconservatives are united in denying women's rights, in asserting the dominance of men, in wanting to remove all the gays, etc. AND MEN DECIDE WHO TO VOTE FOR! DIDN'T YOU KNOW?

But as Thom says time and again, this is the first country in the world started on a truly secular belief -- separation of church and state.

You are totally kerrect! Like the bumper sticker says: "When religion ruled the world, they called it the Dark Ages!"

Now it would be the same or much worse!

Yours,

Caleb

Eastern Washington's picture
Eastern Washington 2 years 23 weeks ago
#3

Concerning Leighmf's comments: Walking a disciplined path to perfection? I don't want to be on anybody else's idea of a disciplined path to perfection. This is an example of why we need the separation of church and state. As for science, I do wish that more humans would devote some time to learning about the laws of nature. They might start with the carbon cycle.

anonymous green 2 years 23 weeks ago
#4

The Carbon Cycle:

Hydrocarbons are produced by chemical/pressure reactions in our earth's core, not million year old Shrimp Gumbo.

These hydrocarbons, weighing less than water, 'float' to the surface of our planet as it's elements sort themselves by weight.

Methane, the largest portion of the hydrocarbons produced, leaks out into the atmosphere and rises as far as it can in the atmosphere, turning into CO2 within ten years.

The resultant CO2, now heavier than air, falls to the Earth and is washed out of the air by the rain.

It eventually enters the sea, where the carbon portion is picked up by shellfish, who use it to make shells.

The Christian Taliban: Christians proving they can be as stupid as anyone else in the world by trying to force everyone into a religious society bound by their tiny philosophies.

The Ivory Towers of Scilence: Science that whores itself by lying for money despite the fact that the truth is known.

Zenzoe 2 years 23 weeks ago
#5

The term "Christian Taliban" does not refer to all Christians. It refers to that extreme, right-wing wacko segment of the Christian population that would turn the U.S. into a theocracy, ban contraception and abortion, execute gays, teach anti-science lies in the classroom, and deny the human rights of women in every sphere imaginable. It is a mind-set that parallels the Taliban mind-set in its extreme, fundamentalist adherence to patriarchy. I don't think it's hyperbole; the law is the only thing keeping them from being more violent than they are (abortion clinic bombings).

http://www.alternet.org/story/18259

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG4IjY52OHw  (Mark Fiore animated cartoon)

Laborisgood's picture
Laborisgood 2 years 23 weeks ago
#7

I'm with Leigh 100% on this one. Sadly, there's a slew of Christian posers that provide ample ammo for the "pairing of non-existent possiblities" like "Christian Taliban" to be and honest topic of discussion.

AG, you state that church, state AND science should have separation. Does that mean science has no place in state as well as religion?

Zenzoe 2 years 23 weeks ago
#8

Leigh has a point, if she means the notion of "Christian Taliban" is an oxymoron. Perhaps, just to be clear, Christian should be in quotes, as in, "'Christian' Taliban." However, the folks we're referring to do consider themselves to be Christians, under the big tent of Christianity and all its various manifestations. Who's to say which one is the real faith? They all claim to be the one true faith, right?

Chris Hedges wrote a book entitled, "Christian Fascists." Was he wrong too? Whatever you want to call them, they're dangerous as heck and need to be confronted.

I would rather see a defense of democracy than a defense of Christianity. Neither "true" Christianity nor democracy will survive, if you let the 'Christian' Taliban have its way.

Laborisgood's picture
Laborisgood 2 years 23 weeks ago
#9
Quote Zenzoe:

Chris Hedges wrote a book entitled, "Christian Fascists." Was he wrong too? Whatever you want to call them, they're dangerous as heck and need to be confronted.

THEY are dangerous and THEY are in dire need of confrontation and attacks from people with a solid Christian foundation (like Hedges) is far more fruitful than attacks from the anti-religious crowd. I do my best to fight these battles as well and usually conclude that the worst offenders are not as religious as they are political and have fallen in with the wrong crowd who prey on such people.

Zenzoe 2 years 23 weeks ago
#10
Quote Laborisgood:

THEY are dangerous and THEY are in dire need of confrontation and attacks from people with a solid Christian foundation (like Hedges) is far more fruitful than attacks from the anti-religious crowd.

My understanding, Laborisgood, has Hedges' Christian Fascists as the same as the 'Christian' Taliban, and it's not the "anti-religious crowd" that leads the confrontation; it's people like Thom Hartmann. For example, Why is Fox so-called News Supporting the Christian Taliban?

If you look at Chris Hedges' Christian Fascists, you see the same right-wing fundamentalists Thom sees as 'Christian' Taliban: The Christian Fascists Are Growing Stronger.

But you're right—they're more political than religious. Whatever label I choose to distinguish them from Christians who have their spiritual integrity intact, I must take a stand against them.

What would you call them?

DdC's picture
DdC 2 years 23 weeks ago
#11

Jesusuans follow Jesus. Rome was the home of Mussolini and the Pope, and he's infallible so why do they need another god. Jesus was not a Christian. He rebelled against the Jews, especially the wealthy Sanhendren. It was the same naive Philistine yuppies freeing Barabas over Jesus. All in the same Rome as in Roman Court system. The symbolic Fasces hung by the Caesars as it did Rome's IGFarben and Nixon and various American Monuments including Lincoln's. Fascism is a cult of Capitalism and Christianity is a conglomeration of cults, none of which portray Jesus. Only the manufactured Christ that Jesus never knew about, let alone authorized. He denied King of the Jews there is no logical reason he would seek a materialistic title of one upmanship. The church is a method of herding the masses. Many prefer to be told what to do rather than take on that responsibility and dare think for themselves. As long as they can pretend they have a choice of 75 different flavors of an ice cream monopoly, they won't question. Mind deadening booze helps. Fluoridation was used in gulags by simply adding it to the water supply, but it is surely meant as a dentrafice according to the ADA. Relying on the Aluminum Trust reports that it was safe to take an expensive hazardous waste byproduct of converting bauxite into aluminum and add to the water and spread it onto kids tooth brushes for a profit. Baking soda does the same thing without tranquilizing a person. But I'm sure its all conspiracy buzz words to aid the propaganda and it comes with hidden baggage you don't have to keep repeating. Like "marihuana" or Military Intelligence, oh wait that's an oxymoron, as opposed to a moron on oxy, that a rush... limbaugh.

A Few Buzzwords

Laborisgood's picture
Laborisgood 2 years 23 weeks ago
#12
Quote Zenzoe:

What would you call them?

I don't feel the need to name them. They embrace and thrive on "martyrdom" at the hands of the Godless horde of Liberals. Of course, there is no basis in reality for their pseudo-Jesus-like suffering. Fighting them from an anti-religion stance only emboldens them. A healthy dose of Jesus (ala Thom and Hedges) is so much more effective.

Speaking of Hedges, a few weeks ago the Assistant Pastor at my church had a sermon highlighting Hedges book "Losing Moses on the Freeway." I nearly fell out of the pew and was quite relieved that the walls didn't come tumbling down. I'm not sure if my shock was more due to my rather conservative (lower case "c") church featuring a Hedges book in a sermon or that this Pastor ain't nearly as conservative as you might assume. I saw it as a sign that good people such as Hedges are truly influencing the world far beyond Liberal circles. I wondered how many people ran out to get some Hedges books only be shocked at his political leanings.

These lunatics will be defeated in due time as long as we have the likes of Hedges and Thom shining their light in the world.

Zenzoe 2 years 23 weeks ago
#13

But, Laborisgood, Thom and Chris fight them, using the designations "Christian Taliban" and "Christian Fascists" respectively (I made a mistake, earlier: his book is not “Christian” Fascists, it's American Fascists); and both designations imply a disagreement with their politics. Where do you see "fighting them from an 'anti-religion' stance?" Whether Chris or Thom or I fight them, it's all the same fight, that is, on behalf of democracy, not on behalf of religion. Thom and Chris may see the hypocrisy and the twisting of Jesus' teachings in those psyches, but it's the threat to democracy that concerns them the most. Nobody cares if some a-political, fundamentalist "Christian" sect diverges in their behavior from Christian precepts; if they keep out of politics, all's well. The problem is that "these lunatics" want to take over the government and turn America into a fascist theocracy.

The subject doesn't need Chris Hedges' and Thom Hartmann's spiritual insights. It needs their knowledge of history and politics. Perhaps, for you, the fact they are Christians gives them credibility. But it isn't necessary for me. I don't see why a progressive atheist's opinion wouldn't have credibility here. I think most progressives can distinguish between Christians who follow Christ's teachings and those who don't.

Quote Chris Hedges:

Dr. James Luther Adams, my ethics professor at Harvard Divinity School , told us that when we were his age, he was then close to 80, we would all be fighting the "Christian fascists."The warning, given to me 25 years ago, came at the moment Pat Robertson and other radio and televangelists began speaking about a new political religion that would direct its efforts at taking control of all institutions, including mainstream denominations and the government. Its stated goal was to use the United States to create a global, Christian empire. It was hard, at the time, to take such fantastic rhetoric seriously, especially given the buffoonish quality of those who expounded it. But Adams warned us against the blindness caused by intellectual snobbery. The Nazis, he said, were not going to return with swastikas and brown shirts. Their ideological inheritors had found a mask for fascism in the pages of the Bible.

And they are the equivalent of the Taliban, American style. It seems pretty obvious to me. Perhaps they don't literally throw acid in the faces of women for venturing out of the house without a man, but symbolically they do.

Laborisgood's picture
Laborisgood 2 years 23 weeks ago
#14

I won't quibble about the semantics of naming them, but still agree with Leigh's premise. Perhaps Thom and Hedges fighting fire with fire methodology does speak more to me due to my religious inclinations, but when that strategy is employed it removes much of the necessary fuel of "martyrs" fighting the "Godless Liberals". A pure "Godless Liberal" approach that fixates on the entirety of religion as the problem and not "bad religion" as a symptom of a much bigger problem is more my point. That battle will be won by fighting it with religion as opposed to fighting against religion.

I'm not sure if you've read Jeff Sharlet's "The Family", but it does a nice job of exposing the bigger problem while illustrating the fact that religion is merely used as a tool to extract power. The people using the tool or being abused by that tool of religion seem to be completely removed from the whole love and peace aspect of Jesus. They somehow conflate domination to gain power with Jesus via submitting one's self (ala Jesus) to the higher cause (power). Nevermind that the whole story of Jesus is one of fighting AGAINST the powers that be.

Of course that's my take on Sharlet's book, but I suppose others may have seen it as more of an anti-religion book. That would depend on your religious perspective I suppose?

Zenzoe 2 years 22 weeks ago
#15
Quote Laborisgood:

Perhaps Thom and Hedges fighting fire with fire methodology does speak more to me due to my religious inclinations, but when that strategy is employed it removes much of the necessary fuel of "martyrs" fighting the "Godless Liberals."

I don't quite see Hedges fighting fire with fire, that is, by presenting a counter-religious argument to demonstrate that not all of American liberals are Godless. I see him as arguing for push-back by all of us, no matter our religious or non-religious perspective, push-back of a political nature.

For example, he wrote this on the last page of American Fascists: "This movement seeks, in the name of Christianity and American democracy, to destroy that which it claims to defend...I do believe that the radical Christian Right is a sworn and potent enemy of the open society. Its ideology bears within it the tenets of a Christian fascism. In the event of a crisis...the movement stands poised to manipulate fear and chaos ruthlessly and reshape America in ways that have not been seen since the nation's founding. All Americans—not only those of faith—who care about our open society must learn to speak about this movement with a new vocabulary, to give up on passivity, to challenge aggressively this movement's deluded appropriation of Christianity and to do everything possible to defend tolerance. The attacks by this movement on the rights and beliefs of Muslims, Jews, immigrants, gays, lesbians, women, scholars, scientists, those they dismiss as "nominal Christians," and those they brand with the curse of "secular humanist" are an attack on all of us, on our values, our freedoms and ultimately our democracy. Tolerance is a virtue, but tolerance coupled with passivity is a vice."

I would like to read The Family. So many books, so little time...

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