Mormons, since their founding, have considered lies a reasonable, honorable weapon against inferior non-Mormon "outsiders" or, as they say, "gentiles." In regards to lying, the ends justifying the means, I quote Jon Krakauer’s book, Under the Banner of Heaven. "Historian D. Michael Quinn refers to the Saints’ bald-faced dissembling as ‘theocratic ethics.’ The Mormons called it ‘Lying for the Lord.’ Brigham (Young) once famously bragged, ‘We have the greatest and smoothest liars in the world.’” Page 201.

I have been listening and understand that you, Thom, have not had time to look into Mormon history. We have a Mormon candidate presumtive. The time has come to look into a culture and history as complex, nuanced and surprising as your studies of the assassinations of President John F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King Jr. Since I was raised by an historian and teacher in Utah I have some credentials as an expert. We go back in the state's history to the first Mormon immigrants. My family chose to leave the religion within a generation of arriving in Utah. Make no mistake, those early dissenters were marked for execution if they stepped too far out of line (Google Orrin Porter Rockwell). Krakauer’s book presents excellent history, social commentary and a plot to murder 12 people in the 1980’s which included my father. Yes, unbelievable, but in Utah murder for religious vengeance is still possible. These issues become incredibly salient when I think about a President Romney.

There is much, much more to learn. For example, The American Bankers super-pac you read about on air last week is connected. I am available to suggest other source material.

Comments

Calperson's picture
Calperson 2 years 31 weeks ago
#1
Quote dustynator:

in Utah murder for religious vengeance is still possible. These issues become incredibly salient when I think about a President Romney.

Oh so NOW it is ok to smear all adherents of a religion due to the deplorable actions of a few within that religion?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you said the same things about all Muslims during the multiple worldwide terrorist atrocities against unknown innocent civilians in the early 2000's?

When some public transport vehicle blows up in Europe or some plane flies into a building in America should I have been looking at my Muslim neighbor and think that "these issues become incredibly salient" in relation to him?

dustynator's picture
dustynator 2 years 31 weeks ago
#2

No need to go out on a limb on my account. "... look into a culture and history as complex, nuanced and surprising as...." Facts are better than assumptions. We are weighing positions stated by those in power and not making "all and every" statements. Check in with Krakauer. Neither of us assert that all Mormons are thus and such. The only statements of that kind are made by Mormon Church leaders or historians to cover official doctrine or policy, to express the idealized beliefs of faithful adherents.

express's picture
express 2 years 31 weeks ago
#3

ghi

Calperson's picture
Calperson 2 years 31 weeks ago
#4
Quote dustynator:

Muslims, since their founding, have considered lies a reasonable, honorable weapon against inferior non-Muslim "outsiders" or, as they say, "infidels." In regards to lying, the ends justifying the means, I quote Pam Geller. The Muslims called it ‘Lying for Allah.’ Muhammad once famously bragged, ‘We have the greatest and smoothest liars in the world.’”

I have been listening and understand that you, Thom, have not had time to look into Muslim history. We have a Muslim candidate presumtive. The time has come to look into a culture and history as complex, nuanced and surprising as your studies of the assassinations of President John F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King Jr. Since I was raised by an historian and teacher in Dearborn I have some credentials as an expert. We go back in the state's history to the first Muslim immigrants. My family chose to leave the religion within a generation of arriving in Michigan. Make no mistake, those early dissenters were marked for execution if they stepped too far out of line (Google "honor killings"). Pam Geller and Robert Spencer present excellent history, social commentary and a plot to bomb multiple venues in the 1980’s which included my father. Yes, unbelievable, but in Dearborn Michigan murder for religious vengeance is still possible. These issues become incredibly salient when I think about a President Obama.

There is much, much more to learn. For example, The American Bankers super-pac you read about on air last week is connected. I am available to suggest other source material.

Here is your post with the words Mormon changed out to the word Muslim. Now do you see how you are filled with hateful religious bigotry? You should be ashamed of yourself.

dustynator's picture
dustynator 2 years 31 weeks ago
#5

Do you know "Mad Libs." Any proper noun could be used: KKK, ACLU, KGB, NCAA, FBI, SPLC, ALEC, Acorn, Muppets. For amusement it's OK. But it doesn't result in a truthful statement. The substituted words here are meant to intimidate by drawing false equivalence.

Rodger97321's picture
Rodger97321 2 years 26 weeks ago
#6

Text from the MOReMONstrous DOCTRINE:

Part of my ancestry includes a line which were always quick to tell us that one of our great-great...grandfathers was Brigham Young.

Recent events have me more actively looking through some of the books they left behind.

This is what is says about the President of the Church:

"Upon the President of the Church, the Almighty bestows the highest office and the greatest gifts that mortal man is capable of receiving. He is the earthly king of the kingdom of God..."

I now understand why other Old/New Testament based religions consider this one to be a cult rather than an associated Christian one. Mainstream Christian teaching is that such a statement is blasphemy - that they put it in print (in their book of Doctine) removes any doubt as to belief or misquotation.

Rodger97321's picture
Rodger97321 2 years 26 weeks ago
#7

Sorry, hit wrong button.

Meant to make point that, unlike in the '60's when some posed a query as to whether or not a practicing Catholic would put the Pope before Country, this is different because this religion demands adherence to the belief that anyone who accepts the Mormon doctrine (including a government officeholder) accept a subservient role to the Church President.

As Willard has been more than a casual member of that church, there can be no question as to whether or not he accepts this primary tenet.

President of the Church, by their definition, is superior to that of POTUS. It remains unexplained why they consider him unworthy for that role or even the role of one of the twelve below that role.

But I think we get a glimpse of it as we are made to witness the insincere manner in which he conducts himself with no apparent regard for the value of truth.

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