"Renaissance Thinking About the Issues of Our Day"
A responce to my brother about guns - FUN IN THE SUN!
Submitted by felpetlin on 12. January 2013 - 11:02
I don't feel we are making much headway in this gun discussion. I think this debate needs to get back to the basics. When emotions are involve logic seems to get in the way. So lets try some logic. If it's alright with you I would like to ask you a few question.
Do you believe that inanimate objects are inherently good or bad? I'm going to answer that one for you. No. If you don't agree then I think we need to talk about the weather instead.
Do you think an inanimate object can make you do something. I'm going to answer that for you also. No.
I have always thought of you as being an Average guy. You wouldn't want to hurt anyone. You try to do the right thing. You would rather people like you. You would much rather be friends with someone then enemies. I think that most people are that way. You have had a gun in your house for over 20 years. Have you ever had the urge to shoot Bette? How about the mailman when he delivers the mail to the wrong house. I'm going to say No. If that gun was loaded on the kitchen table and you had a really big argument, would you shoot her then? How about if you had a loaded 50 cal machine gun with the safety off in your front room, a case of AK47's in your bedroom and hand grenades on every counter in your house would you than be tempted to kill Bette, the postman and some neighbors? No. I guessing from all your No answers that the availability of guns, the number of weapons, or the type of weapons really didn't change your opinion about killing your family or neighbors. I am also guessing that you would now be REAAAAALLY CAREFUL around the house so that you, your wife even a burglar would not cause a catastrophe. You would be a very nervous guy.
Now if most people are the way you are then we really don't have much of a problem. But what about the children you say, the irresponsible, the mentally ill, the sociopaths, the criminals. Our world is chock full of dangerous things. I'm not going to insult your intelligence by naming 50 different things that are extremely dangerous that we come in contact everyday that we seem to, mostly, keep our kids, mentally ill and so-forth away from. Natural gas always amazed me. The fact that we have in our house, with NO safeties a device that if misused could blow up your entire house and possible part of you neighborhood. Gasoline is another. We keep it in plastic buckets in our garages for Christ sake.
Now at this point your mind is racing for a clever come back and since I've been doing all the talking for you. Let me also handle your come back. Well we need gasoline, and natural gas, but who needs a 30 rnd magazine. Who are you, the government or anyone else, within reason, to say what I need or don't need. Do you need a 30 inch TV? Do you need an automobile. My father use to always say when I talked about the latest hot rod, "you don't need a big engine" You are born and than you die. In between you play with your toys! Who are you to tell me that my toys are more dangerous then yours. Bicycle's are very dangerous. How bout skate boards? You don't need a motorcycle, outlaw them. NEED I GO ON! (sorry, there I was yelling)
People are afraid of different things. Many people are afraid of heart disease and they do what they think is best to protect them self. People are afraid of head injuries so they were seat belts and helmet. Some people are afraid of the flu, they were masks. I am afraid that a shit head will kick in my door and I will not be able to protect myself from him. I afraid the government will go broke and out of control and looters will rob and kill me. The government can't tell me what to be afraid of. They can't predict with certainty that these things would happen. They can't tell me I can't protect myself in my home or about with the same weapon that they can't control with a million laws. How dare they.
Frank, try logic when listening to all this gun BS. Bad things happen sometimes. Do you really think guns caused these tragic shooting? Do you really thing the size of the magazine would stop this sick person from hurting other people, really. Killers kill!
As a foot note the part that really pisses me off are the people that would take advantage of these poor people for there own benefit. The news media makes money hand over fist spewing there inflammatory misinformation. The politicians get votes by capitalizing on people's fears. The anti-gun groups for using miss information to furthering there insane cause.
Years ago there was a outside gun range near Chicago name Fox Vally. Eventually anti gun groups shut it down for made up reasons. You could spend all day there in the sun. People were armed to the teeth. They had AK47, AR15, 22's, Black power rifle's, 100 rnd magazines, 38's, you name it people had them. I never heard of an incident or accident there. People talked about there firearms, showed them to each other, let other people shoot them if they wanted to. They were all good people and wouldn't hurt a soul. That was America. Freedom to do what you wanted to do. As long as you didn't hurt anyone. It was a great time.
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Comments
Let me start by assuring you that I'm a gun owning hunter and that I do believe we should be allowed to have guns. Your thesis here is not really comparing apples to apples however.
I will never carry my natural gas on my hip and take it out in public. I will never play around with my natural gas for kicks with my other natural gas totin buddies. Nobody is ever going to break into my home and steal my natural gas to use committing crimes to others.
I believe in being free to do what you want to do as long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of others. I have the right to use my cell phone where and when I wish but it's inherintly stupid and dangerous to use it while I'm driving down the road passing other cars that may have your kids in them. There needs to be some common sense rules associated with our rights. Having guns is a right but it's also inherintly stupid if I am not made to abide by certain safety rules and limits. Nobody is calling for banning guns (nobody with a brain anyway), but certain rules and regulations. These rules and regulations should be debated thoroughly until a good and common sense solution is accepted by the majority.
It is not OK to text and drive "as long as you don't hurt anyone". Eventually many will be hurt with that attitude.
You both make good points, but let me just say this...
Playing basketball, I tore up my ankle so bad, I couldn't walk for 6 months.
Skateboarding, I broke my arm....in fact, I also broke my arm 3 summers in a row when I was 3, 4 and 5 years old (climbing a tall fence, jumping off a swing and trying to do a backflip off the couch when I was 3 (i thought I was Batman)).
Riding one of those flying tubes being pulled behind a wave runner, I hit the water at about 50 mph head first and ruptured my ear drum.
Broken noses, concussions, broken fingers, broken hand, teeth knocked out, broken jaw, cuts down to the bone, and so on and so on.
Some from just being careless, some from playing hockey, baseball, basketball and football, skateboarding, motocross, water sports, etc.
I've never been injured by a gun, nor by my "gun totin buddies". I carried legally for 7 years in Florida and never had any incidents or accidents and that is the way it is for most conceal/carriers. I personally believe, and you'll find many people that carry who agree, that it makes you that much more responsible to your surroundings and decisions when you have that responsibility on your hip.
Make no mistake, I have certainly encountered my share of dumb asses who own guns and frankly, if it were up to me, I would have denied them that right until they proved themselves responsible and intelligent enough to own one, but again, I think his argument is right on.
He is absolutely right, when he says that emotions often trump logic in these debates. Others are blinded by their overwhelming desire to always be right and prove everyone else wrong regardless of the reality of the situation. And still others, are just simply uneducated on the topic.
I've also had people break into my car and my home to steal things....including the car itself. No one has ever stolen my guns because I keep them locked in safes, including the one I use for home defense which is cleverly hidden and quickly and easily accessible before anyone says, "Well, why do you need one if you can't even get to it?"
However, Bush makes a point I think we can all agree on. We need common sense fixes to the weak links in the chain. I heard someone a gun shop owner in Chicago arguing that requiring people to report when their firearms are stolen or missing is "a violation of my rights". Ughh....come on. Straw purchases are a huge problem, but how do you stop them if you're the seller? I say we put a law in place that, after you purchase a weapon, you have to bring it in twice over the next year to prove it's still in your possession....or something along those lines.
Jesus, if we're not willing to make a few compromises, nothing will ever get fixed. If we want to keep our guns...let's meet somewhere in the middle and fix these problems. Again, stay away from my AR and I'll gladly give you my 30 round mags. You want me to register my weapons, then make it a law to keep that information private.
There are solutions and there are rights that shouldn't be touched. Refusing to budge on either side gets us nowhere.
I say we put a law in place that, after you purchase a weapon, you have to bring it in twice over the next year to prove it's still in your possession....or something along those lines.
Excellent idea that I have never heard of before.
First of all Bush_Wacker I am amazed that all the effort I put in to this post, - I tried to be simple, concise, and logical, that you still misted the point. I will try again. We ALL live with many dangers in life. Dangers are all around us. Control is more or less an illusion. That said, we are still able to manage the dangers. Automobile can be very dangerous. Statistically automobiles are the most dangerous things we live with. People don't need sports cars or hot rods. People don't need to joy ride. People don't need to speed. Horrific accidents happen with motor vehicle's. Children are killed by the thousands. Mothers, Fathers, are taken from there children and children daily are taken away from there parents.
Where did I say there shouldn't be rules concerning firearms? Were did I say there shouldn't be limits? Let firearm experts establish those limits. Base these rules NOT on how much taxes can be collected on this sin or what emotionally might feel good but on facts and reason. NOT MISINFORMATION.
Riffle's account for only 1/5 of 1% of all the violet crime. Fully Autonomic weapon use is almost nonexistent.(officer Pyle explains) Firearms can be use for good and can protect. To protect yourself and your children from firearms you HAVE TO USE FIREARMS!
The president, governors, and mayors, outlawing mosquito will not stop the west nile virus
WAKE UP BUSH_WACKER THEY DO WANT TO BAN ALL GUNS. CUOMO WANTED TO DO IT. HE CAME AS CLOSE AS ANYONE HAS. HE IS COUNTING ON PEOPLE LIKE YOU! HE BANNED SEMI AUTO'S WITH ANY MORE THAN A 7 ROUND MAGAZINE. THAT'S PRETTY MUCH ALL SEMI AUTO FIREARMS. EVEN THE ONE'S THAT WERE INVENTED IN THE LATE 1800'S. REGISTRATION FEE''S WILL MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANYONE BUT THE WELL TO DO, TO KEEP A COLLECTION.
JOIN THE NRA DON'T BELIEVE THE ANTI-GUN PROPAGANDA. WE ARE THE NRA!
How old are you Bush_Wacker?
I'm a 52 year old father of 3. And I did understand your post, I think maybe you misread mine.
I didn't mean to insult you. I just wanted to make sure I was talking to an adult. Sometimes kids get on. When you gave the idea of bringing your gun in 2 times a year I for a second thought that maybe you were a person not mature enough to know the cost of such an endeavor to the government and our citizens time. Sorry again.
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No insult taken. I thought your post was a very well thought out and meaningful post. I too remember those days of getting together with a few friends and sighting in my hunting rifle while others brought out their pistols and other weapons. It was very fun but it also proved to me how most people will use their guns as "toys". That's what makes it fun after all. I could take you to many places out in the hills where people do the same thing and you'll see dozens of trees shot to hell. You'll see road signs and fence posts shot to hell. You'll see refrigerators and tv's shot to hell. You'll see garbage for hundreds of yards flying around in the wind.
I would personally have to label that kind of activity as irresponsible and those same irresponsible people have access to all kinds of deadly weapons. I have found recently that the responsible adults with weapons is in the minority and that's a little scary as well as dangerous. We have to recognize that we live in a different world than we did 30 or 40 years ago and sometimes the rules need to be adjusted to compensate for a new generation of citizens. It's what keeps civilization civilized.
Bush_Wacker You seem to be a good and responsible guy. You said I quote "I have found recently that the responsible adults with weapons is in the minority" There are an estimated 300 million guns the the USA. Responsible firearm owners are NOT in the minority in any stretch to the imagination. These anti gun groups really have you all work up don't they? And THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT! There are people that will abuse anything. Many of there chosen abuses are dangerous. And the dangers don't have to be related to firearms. I have tried to explain that in previous emails.
A military firearm like the AR15 is a weapon designed for combat. Like a laptop computer is compared to a high power desktop. An assault rifle doesn't do anything as good as a high powered hunting rifle. As you know from being a hunter the longer and thicker the barrel the more accurate the rifle. Assault rifles have SHORT barrels, why, because there easier to carry. There are cartage's like the 30.06 used for hunting that are MUCH more powerful and can be MUCH more deadly. An AR15 uses a .223 why, because they are lighter, less kick, and they can carry more ammunition. They have folding stocks, why, because it makes the rifle easier to carry. They are cheaply made. A lot of plastic is used, why, because the government is cheap. If you have to carry one 16hr a day in the jungle or desert with a 100 lbs back pack, get one. I personally wouldn't have one. It's of no use to me.
Good, honest people like yourself are being manipulated by these ultra liberal anti gun groups who main goal is to eliminate ALL firearm from America. Law abiding citizens are the ONLY one's who obey laws. So law abiding citizens will ether be made felons by the government or sheep that will be controlled by criminals. Which one will you be?
My response would be that the "pro-gun" conservatives have you all worked up don't they?
You see, we're in the same boat. We have to take in megatons of information from other so called experts on the subject and they are going to manipulate our emotions depending on which side of the debate people are on. I have guns and I hunt. You mention the 30-06 above. That's my rifle of choice. I refuse to let the media or special interest groups convince me that just because there's a call for some sensible regulations on guns that they are going to take all of our guns away. Yes, you're right when you say that there are some ultra liberal anti gun groups who would love nothing better than to make all guns disappear from the face of the earth but you and I both know that it can never happen. The whole idea from the gun industry is to get you and I to fear that happening and then in turn we become the "sheep" of a different shepard. I'll never fear total gun banning in the USA. It could never happen and that is one of the very few things that I'm sure of anymore. Just follow the money. That always leads to real answers. The gun industry is huge and taking away some of their sales is asking for a battle.
PLEASE WAKE UP!! THEY ARE BANNING GUNS NOW AS WE SPEAK! Read the New York BAN. They even include sling shots and dangerous knifes (whatever they are)! NEW YORK GUN LEGISLATION
Other states will follow suit and this isn't the gun industry this is reality. I live in Chicago. There were over 500 killing almost all in black area's and almost all by gangs. And what does this stupid f**ken major propose? STRIKER GUN LAWS FOR HONEST CITIZENS! We have,now, the second strictest gun laws in America, Illinois is the only state that you can't get a concealed carry permit. In Illinois you have to have a FOID card (firearms owner Identification card) too buy firearms and ammunition.(this is the only state that has this) There are no gun shops or ranges in Chicago. You can't by ammunition though the mail. CHICAGO If your job demands you go in these cesspool area's (which mine did) YOU CAN'T PROTECT YOURSELF IN ANY MEANINGFUL WAY IN CHICAGO! But the politician can - Any elected politician can LEGALLY carry a firearm. DOES MAYOR CUOMO HAVE A GUN - DOES HIS BODY GUARDS HAVE GUNS? DO THEY HAVE ANY OF THE BAN WEAPONS? WHY DOES HE GET PROTECTION AND I MUST BE A THE MERCY OF THE THUGS.
How about keeping the criminals in prison. How about a 5 year mandatory FEDERAL prison sentence for a crime with a gun. How about putting more money INTO, not taking money OUT OFF, help for the mentally ill. How about teaching gun safety in schools. My HIGH SCHOOL HAD A GUN RANGE IN THE BASEMENT! (Amundsen High School)
The gun industry is just another boggy man. Americans wants protection and they like any other American industry will fill the need. They don't make money when there is a senseless killing. There sales go though the ceiling every time anti-gun groups want to ban something. If anti gun groups want to stop gun sales they should JUST KEEP THERE MONTH SHUT!