"Men are natural born killers" no not so much, killing is a learned trait

Interesting.  And I learned a new word: Frugivore.  That's me.  Yesterday, I had a delicious taste of my first, home-grown watermelon, all organic. 

So, I wonder if you might want to chime in on TABOO SUBJECT?

Oh boy, don't give up—this first watermelon of mine was 25 lbs., pretty good for my first?   And I've got five more, that I know of, one about the same size and the others too small to pick.  This one plant has practically filled the entire garden, and it's so lush I can't really tell how many watermelon there are.  What fun, eh?

You wrote - " Meat can not be preserved in nature during warm weather so it would make no sense to go to all the effort to kill something only to have it go bad and become uneatable within a day or two."

I live within the boundaries of an Indian Pueblo in a small Spanish village in Northern New Mexico.  Here, everyone used to make jerky - beef, buffalo, elk, deer. It preserves for a long time.  I cannot assume that this has not been going on for thousands of years. 

I was vegetarian for a number of years.  On a road trip with my brother we stopped at the Tar Pits in LA.  Inside were a number of Sabertooth Tiger skulls.  That animal was created, by the creator, to eat ONLY meat (the two long teeth seemed to make it impossible to eat vegetation.)  Clearly the Creator is not against the eating of flesh, as it is intrinsic to life as it has been Created. In a flash I stopped being vegetarian, and felt ok about it.  

Except that you do not have extra long canine teeth, as far as I can tell from your picture; that is, your teeth were not designed for tearing meat off a carcass.

"The creator" may not be against meat-eating—though I doubt such an entity sits around entertaining itself with such questions—but you are a thinking human with will power, one with the capacity for ethical consideration.  If you are buying your meat from a super-market, you are not behaving as the sabertooth tiger; you are behaving as a being whose conscience is not engaged as he supports industrial meat production, where animals are made to suffer throughout their short, brutal lives.  But that's your choice.  If you're okay with that, it's your business; cruelty for profit has not been outlawed yet.  But I would hope you think twice the next time you reach for those baby ribs.

Cheers.

P.S. —George Carlin quotes:

Here's another question I have. How come when it's us, it's an abortion, and when it's a chicken, it's an omelette? Are we so much better than chickens all of a sudden? When did this happen; that we passed chickens in goodness? Name six ways we're better than chickens... See, nobody can do it! You know why? 'Cause chickens are decent people. You don't see chickens hanging around in drug gangs, do you? No. You don't see a chicken strapping some guy into a chair and hooking up his nuts to a car battery, do you?... When's the last chicken you heard about came home from work and beat the shit out of his hen, huh? Doesn't happen... 'cause chickens are decent people.

Cannibalism. Imagine that: chowing down on another human being. You gotta be all out of beef jerky, man. You gotta be really f____g hungry. But it happens, doesn't it? Still happens to this day. A bunch of people stranded in the wilderness run out of pop tarts, gotta eat something... Might as well be Steve! And by the way, how do you decide who to eat first? How do you decide who's first on the barbecue rack? Do you pick on the little guy because he's skinny and he can't fight back, or do you all gang up on the bodybuilder because he's got a lot of steaks and chops on him?

Shankara, ancient Indian yoga philosopher, had an interesting view: 1)The creator/god/Self/original ground (you make the name) alone exists. 2)The universe is maya, unreal. 3)The Self is the Universe.  Not that you might be Hindu, but there is a sentiment that the creator is the creation.  This would include the good, the bad, and the ugly.  Seems that way to me. So animals like T-Rex, and sharks, and sabertooth tigers are all perfect parts of creation.

And somehow if meat should not be in my diet I can amazingly digest it (though I have a wheat and dairy intolerance.)

And in 2 months I, and an experienced friend, are going to slaughter and cut up and freeze a local young cow, who has lived it's entire life in a large organic field with plenty of water from an acequia. A happy cow (until he meets my friend.) 

I understand the moral issues. I have given much thought to the whole issue.

There was a book published I think in the 1950's by Tobias Schneebaum named Keep The River To Your Right. He described his solo trip deep into the jungle of South America where he befriended a native tribe which had been relatively isolated and extremely remote.  He slept with them (the men slept together in a sorta giant pile) and lived with them for quite a while.  The went out on many hunting trips, using spears, to kill and bring back their prey. One day he joined them as they went on a hunting party to a neighboring tribe.  They went in, killed all the men, pulled 5 out, gutted them and cut their heads off, tied them on long poles, and took them home.  There they built a large fire, on which they roasted the flesh. Then they ate it. The author ate some heart and never got over it. 

The reason I tell this rather gruesome story is that the author reported that, after the initial raid where they killed all the men, they celebrated, laughed, slapped each other on the back. They showed absolutely no remorse.  When they ate they were happy and jovial.  They had no guilt.  When I read this it shocked me.  It made me wonder how much our morality is relative to our culture and traditions.

Must have been a big tribe, 5 humans is a lot, 5 Americans is a helluva lot.

Out of desperation maybe men will kill, but not naturally. The Imperial Roman emperors knew this quite well. This is why they promoted at government expense the games, including gladitorial contests, public executions, animal slaughter, etc. in the arena free for public consumption. The government needed to keep the people use to blood, guts, and gore so they would be numb when it came time to enlist thousands of young men into the imperial roman armies. Rome depended on a constant flow of plunder from the outer realms, and regular tribute from the conquered territories of the Roman empire to maintain the extravagant wealth of the rich (sound familiar). I highly suspect that the same may be going on in our time. The military needs young people, and the public at large to be open to the possibility being exposed to war. If the movie "Men who stare at goats" where george clooney's character stated that new recruits in their first battle will mostly fire there weapons at nothing rather than the enemy is true because of there non-violent upbringing, then, I can see why violent games, and movies may be so prevelent in our society. Of course, I try very hard not to believe in conspiracys. Of course WWII needed to happen to rid the world of Fascism, but all the wars since, I'm not so sure. I think most or all were to secure natural resources at the right prices so the established rich can continue their ride on the high hog.

Humans are evolved as omnivores, not strictly carnivores, herbivores, "fruitarians," or, dare I say, "breatharians."  It is exponentially harder (although I'm not arguing that it can't be done) to mix meatless foods in proper amounts and portions so that the human body gets the complete proteins and amino acids that it needs for healthy cell regeneration.  As I said, it can be done; vegetarians do it all the time, but, in my opinion, those diets are harder to plan and don't end up being varied enough to make eating fun and interesting.  There is milk protein, but many are allergic to dairy products.  Some are allergic to eggs, although eggs are high in protein and provide enough lecithin so that they almost offset their own cholesterol.

Corporate farming of food animals is indeed an abomination.  Not only is it generally inhumane, but who wants to eat all the steroids and other growth drugs and the animal antibiotics which are pumped into corporately farmed animals?  That's why millions of us who can augment our rage against the machine by thinking purchase and eat only humanely raised, organically fed, drug-free meats and poultry.  Raising clean food animals has become a growth industry nationwide and it has the advantage that it's mostly localized or regionalized, so it frees both ranchers and customers from having to subsidize corporate monopolies.  Most clean meat and poultry ranchers also use free-range grazing methods, so that animals and chickens roam free almost up until they're slaughtered. 

While not all vegetarians live on salad, those who try end up anemic, emaciated, and have to eat about 7 to 9 pounds of salad per day -- which can cost more than meat or fowl providing the same or better nutrition, provided the salad is organic, rather than corporately grown. 

While it's true that there have been vegan athletes who have succeeded at all levels and in many sports, they are marked exceptions.  Because humans have evolved as omnivores, they need meat and fowl to efficiently deliver quickly assimilable and digestable proteins in quantities which will assure quick and efficient cell regeneration, thus keeping them healthy and able to perform at competitive levels.  This is especially true of "power" sports wherein well-developed and heavily exercised long muscles are at a premium.  I'm not alluding to runners, who often look like prison camp inmates, or other athletes who don't work out and use their long muscles as much.  And please, no long tracts or links "disproving" this; I know it's my opinion and that there are  countervailing arguments.  I've read most of them, but I have an M.S. in nutrition and I don't agree with them. 

And, there will also be (sigh) those who will say this is all  moot because they hate athletics anyway, so they don't care whether or not athletes have animals to eat, as long as they get their way in forcing everybody to become vegans because, in an irony they don't see, they think it's "right."

These are the myths that are forever being said about vegetarian diets.  All nonsense.  I have been a vegetarian for over 20 years, and my doctors are always amazed at my health—good liver, great heart, low blood pressure, no diabetes, plenty of protein showing up in blood tests. 

It is not at all difficult to get all the nutrients needed with a vegetarian diet.  This is the biggest myth, that you have to work harder at meal planning with veggie diets, though I don't have time right now to go into it.  Suffice it to say, my diet is far more interesting, healthful, fun and varied now, compared to the meat and potatoes diet I was on previously.  Much of my diet is ethnic-oriented—Thai, Mexican, Chinese, etc.—and often I make my own seitan, which is the "mock chicken," or "mock duck" you find in Thai restaurants, a high protein source invented by Buddhist monks. Anyway, you really don't need as much protein as you think, and you certainly don't need the animal fat!

Most vegetarians do not try to live on salad only, and even if they did, it's easy to get protein into a salad.

But I'm glad you don't buy supermarket meat.  That's great.

You walk your path, I'll walk mine.  As long as you don't want to dictate my diet, I'm fine with that.  I'm in early old age and my physical labs, too, are an amazement to my doc.  Being on the business end of black iron for years, augmented by basketball, hasn't hurt, and I maintain good muscle tone with a healthy diet which includes clean animal, fowl, and fish proteins. 

As an afterthought, there's a signficant economic angle as well.  Many high-quality natural foods are overpriced.  This is a remnant of the old health food store legacy, wherein independent health food stores took markups and made margins of 75% - 150% or more on all items they sold, making health/natural foods much more expensive than supermarket foods.  The working public could not afford their prices and this contributed to driving the average American consumer into embracing unhealthy, mass market, processed foods.  With the advent of more and more local health/natural foods co-ops and natural foods supermarket chains, independent health food store owners could no longer haul in exorbitant markups and remain competitive, so now it's relatively cheaper than ever to eat healthy foods. 

Having said all of the above, it is also true that health/natural foods remain somewhat more expensive than mass market foods and this contributes to the sales of supermarket meats.  One example is block organic tofu.  One 16 oz. package of high-quality, organic tofu often costs more than 16 oz. of leanest grade hamburger; cube steak; a chicken; a Cornish hen; a sole fillet; or two pork chops.  If people are going to buy natural foods, especially those which provide protein, then natural food producers, distributors, and retailers all have to be willing to take a little less profit in order to make those foods available to working people.  So far, I haven't seen any evidence of any such willingness.

And remember, if God didn't want people to eat animals, He wouldn't have made 'em out of meat!   :-)

I LOVED Men Who Stare at Goats!  And there's much in what you say.  As for "conspiracy," it depends on how you define it?

The notion of the human being as an aggressive, killing machine is way over done.  Altruism is actually the norm, because it serves the species far better than aggression does.  Somebody should ask Thom.  I'd be interested in his take on the subject too.

Statistics and the fear of death are a big motivational seller for behavioral change. Not for me.  I see death as a positive thing, so when it comes, it comes. Actually, I look forward to it.  I have felt this way since my LSD days 40 years ago.  I call the moral imperative of vegetarianism a false moral imperative, given the examples of nature. Thats all. Sorry if it offends you. I hope you have a long, healthy life.   Carnivore or herbivore, death will meet us both at the end. Personally, I am thrilled I will be 60 soon!

Paramhansa Yogananda once said that if people only knew the joys awaiting them in death it could be a big problem (with suicide).  My suggestion for you would be, although I have no study to back me up, not to overestimate the benefits of old age, nor underestimate the benefits of death.:)

Well, I hope you live a long life anyway.  However, you do seem to miss the point.  My vegan choice is not only about the health benefits—it's not ALL ABOUT ME.  It is mostly about not providing a market for an immoral meat production system, that is, industrial farming.  If you are able to provide yourself with ethically grown meat, I say Great—I'm not too concerned with your longevity either.  But if one is buying one's meat at the supermarket, again, that decision is not an ethical one: It is just plain unethical. It cannot be justified.

I do agree - factory farming is immoral.  On the other hand I have a friend who grew up in southern colorado eating pheasant eggs for breakfast and elk, deer, pheasant,etc with meals. He didn't have regular eggs or beef until he moved out at 18. His family co-existed with the land. Was that lifestyle wrong to you?  Here where I live people for the most part slaughter their own cows, raised in extremely humane conditions.  Factory farming isn't an issue unless you go to the big chain stores.  All the factory farmed meat is toxic.  So, Zenzoe, in my case you have little to say.

No.  Didn't I explain myself clearly enough?  I am not talking about family farming, or hunting when needed, according to respect for animal rights.  Hunting animals to extinction would be hugely wrong, as I'm sure you would agree.

Okie dokie.  I'm glad you see the difference.  I'm talking about those folks who have a sense of entitlement about food, that is, "I'm a human being and my need for meat is more important than animal suffering," not that anybody consciously takes that position—well, sometimes, if pressed.  But what other reason could there be for eating the products of industrial farming, when one has knowledge of the conditions, the lives of animals, there?  I suppose some persist in thinking they cannot get all the nutrients they need with a vegetarian diet, all reassurances, and the facts, to the contrary.