As an American I was taught since childhood that anyone accused of a crime is "Innocent until Proven Guilty". It is enshrined in the Constitution. Apparently that is no longer true. If the Government labels you a "Terrorist" then it is free to murder you, and anybody else in the car or room that you are in, with a drone fired missile.

Even though Obama taught Constitutional Law he must have merely forgot that the Death Penalty may not be imposed until and unless you are convicted of a capital crime and have been supplied Legal Defense if you are not able to afford a lawyer of your own. Last week a U.S. Citizen was murdered because he was merely accused of being a "Terrorist". He was technically an innocent man unless, and until he was convicted in a court of law. Yep, we murdered an innocent man. I defy anyone who knows the law to deny it.

It's difficult for me to write this because I have no problem with killing enemy combatants on the field of battle, but NOT U.S. citizens in countries that we are not even technically at war with.

Peace, Randy

Comments

Vlperez's picture
Vlperez 2 years 48 weeks ago
#1

You are so ignorant why don't you look up what that terrorist did for his cause before you say he is innocent and the minute he planned attacks against the US he is considered a criminal. This country is weak becaus of people like you. The president you voted in ordered it so it's just as much our fault as it it his. Kill all the terrorists. Foreign or domestic

express's picture
express 2 years 48 weeks ago
#2

How sick this is, and tragically Viperez gives us a prime example of just far the U.S. has declined - and why.

Vlperez's picture
Vlperez 2 years 48 weeks ago
#3

And you are a prime example of why the terrrorists aren't afraid of America. You extreme tolerance make you look weak and hepless. Amercis in on the decline because of spineless " I want ot be eveyones friend " people like you. Is was in Iraq scout sniper platoon . You idiots make me sick with all your sympathy.

icacoethes 2 years 48 weeks ago
#4
Quote Vlperez:And you are a prime example of why the terrrorists aren't afraid of America. You extreme tolerance make you look weak and hepless. Amercis in on the decline because of spineless " I want ot be eveyones friend " people like you. Is was in Iraq scout sniper platoon . You idiots make me sick with all your sympathy.

Ouch, dude. Maybe you should stick to sniping. I know you feel passionately, and I applaud you for serving your country, but the "you're either with us or against us" mentality will get us nowhere. I refuse to accept that we have declared an abstract, never ending, global frakking war against a concept! There will ALWAYS be terrorists, whether they be foreign or domestic, and you aren't going to make them "afraid of us" by shooting them in the head or bombing them- most of them are are already quite willing to martyr themselves for their ridiculous beliefs, anyway. 9/11 is over, it was ten years ago, and the people responsible were brought to street justice. Time to let it go- all this scaremongering reminds me of McCarthyism and the once great threat of communism. For the record: I AM NOT AT WAR WITH ANYTHING, and until congress declares it, NEITHER IS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

I want to live my life and enjoy the personal liberties I have, and I don't spend my time constantly worrying about when or where the next attack is going to happen. I also don't give a rat's ass about chasing them around the globe, either. When I walk down the street, it isn't terrorism I fear- it's running afoul of all the ridiculous and over-reaching laws imposed upon me by my own govenment. My government grants, and taketh away my freedom, not some lunatic martyr hell bent on killing himself, along with me.

Just because someone objects to the violation of due process and further erosion of civil rights and/or liberties does not make them a spineless, terrorist sympathizer, nor does it make them a friend of terrorism.

icacoethes 2 years 48 weeks ago
#5
Quote Randy95023:

As an American I was taught since childhood that anyone accused of a crime is "Innocent until Proven Guilty". It is enshrined in the Constitution. Apparently that is no longer true. If the Government labels you a "Terrorist" then it is free to murder you, and anybody else in the car or room that you are in, with a drone fired missile.

Even though Obama taught Constitutional Law he must have merely forgot that the Death Penalty may not be imposed until and unless you are convicted of a capital crime and have been supplied Legal Defense if you are not able to afford a lawyer of your own. Last week a U.S. Citizen was murdered because he was merely accused of being a "Terrorist". He was technically an innocent man unless, and until he was convicted in a court of law. Yep, we murdered an innocent man. I defy anyone who knows the law to deny it.

It's difficult for me to write this because I have no problem with killing enemy combatants on the field of battle, but NOT U.S. citizens in countries that we are not even technically at war with.

Peace, Randy

Not the only area where the loss of due process is used- try running afoul of a drug law and see what happens. Sure, you'll get all the rights afforded by the 6th, but suddenly, your property will become guilty, and aye, there's the rub-

Allowing for it to be seized and forfeited, even if you ARE ACQUITTED OR NEVER CHARGED WITH A CRIME. All the government needs to do is show probable cause, (not preponderance of evidence, or beyond reasonable doubt) and your property becomes "tainted", as if an inanimate object can actually be guilty of something. The burden of proof to show that it isn't "tainted" falls on the owner (now considered a third party), but how can one prove a negative? Often the cases have names like "United States v. One Chevy Pickup" or "Georgia v. 2 Acres of Land in Muskogee County".

Even more disturbing is that law enforcement gets to keep the proceeds from whatever they seize, creating a massive conflict of interest. Some states have passed laws that say the proceeds must go to education, but law enforcement gets around this by "piggybacking", or turning the confiscated property in at the federal level, where they get to keep 80% of the proceeds. Since the burden of proof is on the owner (remember, the property is already guilty) and the cost to get it back averages about 10 grand, most people just let it go. There are thousands of examples of people losing property when they haven't even been charged with anything, and law enforcement infers this to mean that everyone is guilty because folks don't try to get their property back- when the reality is that they are simply decisions of economics or time.

All in the name of catching the bad guys (and the billions of dollars that law enforcement pockets each year).

Randy95023's picture
Randy95023 2 years 47 weeks ago
#6

To Mr. Perez:

Question 1: If YOU were accused by the U.S. Government of being a terrorist would you prefer a Trial, or merely to be executed on-sight by the Government?

Question #2: Do you believe an American Citizen is "innocent until proven guilty" in a court of law?

If "people like me are what's wrong with this country" I think you should think again. I'm an ex-cop and spent over 30 years as an armed DoD Security Officer and Weapons trainer. I studied Law as well as Economics. I'm a lifelong NRA member and a somewhat progressive member of the Republican Party for over 35 years (an "Eisenhower Republican"). If you honestly answered "NO" to either of the questions I posed to you above I suggest you get the psychiatric help that such a hate filled person requires.

Wishing you all Peace, (and yes, "Peace", even to Mr. Perez)...

Randy

Vlperez's picture
Vlperez 2 years 47 weeks ago
#7

Ignorance is bliss. Why don't you take a look at all the laws that have been passed in euorpe due to the Muslims trying to take over democracy. There people are not innocent. They have been proven guilty and just haven't been caught. A terrorist doesn't deserve due process. Did the 3000 people who died in the Towers get their due process? Or the dozens of Christians in muslim countries that are killed or have their churches burned? What about their rights? Everyone is so worried about the Muslims rights

Randy95023's picture
Randy95023 2 years 47 weeks ago
#8

Mr. Perez, If you served in the Military (which I have reason to doubt), you SWORE an oath to the Constitution. In your rash and total disregard of key Constitutional tenets such as an American Citizen is "innocent until proven guilty" you broke that oath. In my day a man's word, especially the actual swearing of an Oath was his honor. In breaking your oath to such a degree you show that you swore an oath to something that you lack the intelligence to even comprehend, or if you could comprehend it your Oath meant nothing to you. Men used to have HONOR and their sworn allegiance to the Constitution, God and Country meant something. Apparently you lack either Honor to uphold your sworn Oath or you are a xenophobic scoundrel who I pray never wore the uniform of the United States of America.

Just something to think about when you look your father in the eyes and remember that maybe, just maybe Honor meant something to men of his age that he failed to pass on to his son. A Shame indeed...

Peace, Randy

Vlperez's picture
Vlperez 2 years 47 weeks ago
#9

BTW the bombing making Anwar al-Awlaki appears to have not been killed in Yemen So I'm sure you're happy that a man who makes bombs and has killed Americans is still alive.

Vlperez's picture
Vlperez 2 years 47 weeks ago
#10

I did serve in the military and came face to face with the enemy many times. Even as a sniper I was shot upon. And I was at my father's side before he died and he said he was proud of me. He also served in the military. You are the one that I doubt has done or been anything you've written. And personal attacks by idiots like you dont bother me. I just laugh Once am American plans terrorist attacks on other Americans he loses all his rights. In case you were in the military ( which I doubt unless a grenade went off by your head and lowered your IQ to the Level of a politician ) he is how I remember the oath.
I, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

Zenzoe 2 years 47 weeks ago
#11

Perez: Your loyalty to the President is misplaced: Your loyalty is to the Constitution only, and that includes the 5th Amendment (and other parts of the Constitution) of the Bill of Rights.

A Duty to Disobey all Unlawful Orders...

The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) 809[890].ART.90 (20), makes it clear that military personnel need to obey the "lawful command of his superior officer," 891.ART.91 (2), the "lawful order of a warrant officer", 892.ART.92 (1) the "lawful general order", 892.ART.92 (2) "lawful order". In each case, military personnel have an obligation and a duty to only obey Lawful orders and indeed have an obligation to disobey Unlawful orders, including orders by the president that do not comply with the UCMJ. The moral and legal obligation is to the U.S. Constitution and not to those who would issue unlawful orders, especially if those orders are in direct violation of the Constitution and the UCMJ.


Vlperez's picture
Vlperez 2 years 47 weeks ago
#12

I quoted the oath Itook which is short for a reason. . You are citing military law which expands on the oath. You people like to turn every one of us soldiers into mindless killing machines and that we have no regard for the constitution. We protect every Americans right to freedom be it here or abroad.

Zenzoe 2 years 47 weeks ago
#13

Reply to # 13: It's not expanding on the oath at all. Did you NOT SEE the word LAWFUL in the oath??? It does not say "any" order or command. In fact, obeying illegal orders can result in criminal prosecution. "I was just following orders" IS NOT AN EXCUSE for violations of national and international human rights laws. For example, in United States v. Keenan: "The Court of Military Appeals held that 'the justification for acts done pursuant to orders does not exist if the order was of such a nature that a man of ordinary sense and understanding would know it to be illegal.'" But, of course, according to the book of "justice" in the U.S., only low-level military personnel will be held to account for crimes against humanity and war crimes. All others, including the President of the United States, can violate laws up one side and down the other, without ever being held to account. It's what's known as a double standard. And that's where your confusion lies, I do believe, with all due respect.

Randy95023's picture
Randy95023 2 years 47 weeks ago
#14

Zenzoe, If there is such a thing as Karma Mr. Perez would be accused of a crime and prosecuted and sentenced without a trial. Maybe THEN he would understand why American Citizens are "Innocent Until Proven Guilty" in a court of law. Personal experience would be a great teacher as he sat in his cell, having personally been denied "due process".

As far as killing terrorists go I'm all for it. If an American citizen is accused AND convicted of being a Terrorist then feel free to put him to death. As for killing American Citizens go I don't think you can even call anyone a criminal until they have been tried in a court of law. If you accused your neighbor of being a child molestor, and he had never been convicted of such a crime, he would sue your ass off... If Mr. Perez's neighbor accused him of being a terrorist and walked up to him on the street and gunned him down he might understand "his rights" as he gasped his last breaths. Some people don't have the brains that God gave a gopher and only personal experience could make them comprehend reality.

Peace, Randy

Vlperez's picture
Vlperez 2 years 47 weeks ago
#15

They way Karma works I'd be worrying if I were you Randy. Hoping that I get shot just to teach me a lesson is not a very rational way of thnking. And if you believe in karma something bad is coming your way I didn't die in Irag or Afghanistan and I lost a lot of my brothers in arms , so I'm sure karma was and is still on my side. As for you Randy , I consider you to be a hypocrite. Wanting justice for a wanted terrorist and wishing death on a solider. Have a nice life. Whatever is left of it.

Zenzoe 2 years 47 weeks ago
#16

Sheesh, enough with the pissing contest, fellas.

I am against the death penalty. I am against war. I don't understand why anyone with a choice would join the military. I don't thank soldiers for their "service;" I merely hope they get help for their PTSD.

If we had taken a fraction of the cash used to invade, demolish, and occupy Afghanistan and Iraq and put up notices in both countries to the effect of, "$20,000 Reward for the Live Capture of Criminal Extremists," and then used another fraction of the money for investigations and true, due-process-respecting Federal criminal trials, according to our Bill of Rights, then we would have punished the bad guys, ended al qaeda, gained the support of moderate Muslims, and we could have invested the rest in jobs for America and the rest of our needs. I mean, this War on Terrorism is so bloody insane, I can barely stand it.

Randy95023's picture
Randy95023 2 years 47 weeks ago
#17

Mr. Perez: I DON'T wish for you or any American Soldiers to die. I pray daily for our troops and personnaly know some of the boys over there right now. I pray for the lunacy of a war that we WON over 5 years ago to end. I'm a Republican and work for the Department of Defense. I'm actually at work as I write this.

It seems you missed the whole point of what I wrote. An American is "Innocent Until Proven Guilty". That's what this whole thread started out and I wish you would re-read the original post. Our soldiers have sworn to uphold the Constitution and not to kill American citizens without due process. My anger vented towards you was that you would be "OK" with being gunned down without a trial because you were ACCUSED of being a Terrorist. I really think you would want a trial. Simple as that.

Zenzoe is right. Let's knock of the pissing contest and let it rest. I'll continue to pray for the troops and you promise to read the Constitution. Fair enough?

Peace to you, and thanks for serving, Randy

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