Thom and Thomas Jefferson are POLES apart

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With all due respect to the host, there is no ideological link between Thom H. and Thom. J.

Thomas Jefferson railed against govt run monopolies like the East India Tea company. Thomas Jefferson was a libertarian. I am more than willing to take this up with anyone.

cornopean's picture
cornopean
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Nov. 5, 2010 11:48 am

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Actually, Jerrerson rallied against any large corporate structure...warning they would ultimately gain the power to own everything worth owning...leaving the inheritors of the revolution destitute.

Civil liberty guarantees used to be held by most,.. not just Libertarians..

Original libertarian thinkers were pretty radical seemingly putting limits on just what those civil guarantees could be used for. Benjamin Tucker said:.

"strikes, whenever and wherever inaugurated, deserve encouragement from all the friends of labour. . . They show that people are beginning to know their rights, and knowing, dare to maintain them." [18] and furthermore, "as an awakening agent, as an agitating force, the beneficent influence of a strike is immeasurable. . . with our present economic system almost every strike is just. For what is justice in production and distribution? That labour, which creates all, shall have all."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Tucker

Current libertarians seem to have forgotten their roots.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

polycarp2
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote polycarp2:

Actually, Jerrerson rallied against any large corporate structure...warning they would ultimately gain the power to own everything worth owning...leaving the inheritors of the revolution destitute.

I agree but by corporate structure, he did not mean what we mean by "corporations". He meant govt controlled monopolies; e.g. the East India Tea Company. This was what Jefferson hated. Jefferson would have revolted at the idea of an income tax, much less taxing the rich. Jefferson hated govt power in any way shape or form.

There is no possible way Thom H. can connect himself to Jefferson. That is just historically impossible. The closest thing to Jefferson today is Ron Paul.

cornopean's picture
cornopean
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Nov. 5, 2010 11:48 am
Quote cornopean:

With all due respect to the host, there is no ideological link between Thom H. and Thom. J.

Thomas Jefferson railed against govt run monopolies like the East India Tea company. Thomas Jefferson was a libertarian. I am more than willing to take this up with anyone.

Oh, that's just sad. How people forget.

There were no Libertarians in 1776. And even comparing Libertarians today to any party then is difficult, as there are at least six varieties of Libertarian.

There are Progressive Libertarians that would be Democrats but they don't like the Democratic Party or any corporate attachments at all. They like a social safety net, government services like Social Security. Good people.

There are Conservative Libertarians that would be Republicans but they don't like the Republican Party or their corporate attachments.

They are conservative without the usual religious bias. The "Republicans that want to smoke dope and have sex" faction.

Then there are the Libertarian Anarchists; government with no power but a court system and basic law, not even National Defense. They spout the "Government is Evil" propaganda.

They're crazy, BTW. They quote that line about 'taxation even WITH representation' being theft.

Which is insane, of course.

As if any of us could live to 18 years old without owing a debt to our country, our military, our police, firefighters and teachers. When you owe a debt, being asked to pay it is not theft.

Then the more mainstream Lib Anarchists that do allow for National Defense, but only defense. No attacking other countries, EVER.

Then there's Lib Anarchists that like Nation Building, invading other countries to tear them down and build something more "business friendly".

And finally the Libertarian/NeoLiberals, who are really NeoCons.

Torture? Sure, why not? If it supposedly 'protects' America, go for it.

Offshore American jobs? If there's profit in it, why not?

Thomas Jefferson was the Founder of the Democratic Republican Party, the forerunner of today's Democratic Party.

I can barely see where the point would be, about him being a Progressive Libertarian, but don't take that anti-corporate thing too far.

Jefferson may have had good reason to hate the East India Company. Look up what they did to people, and you might hate them too.

But he wasn't an Anarchist Libertarian, or he couldn't have participated in forming our Government. It would be like a Vegan cooking a rare steak.

Jkirk3279's picture
Jkirk3279
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Jkirk3279:
But he wasn't an Anarchist Libertarian, or he couldn't have participated in forming our Government. It would be like a Vegan cooking a rare steak.

Jefferson participated in forming our government? How so?

Azog's picture
Azog
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Jan. 3, 2011 3:42 pm

[/quote]

Jefferson participated in forming our government? How so?

[/quote]

Obviously you slept through all of your US History classes in high school or you wouldn't be asking such a stupid question today!

Gary the Gun Nut
Joined:
Feb. 3, 2013 3:16 pm

Jefferson didnt just participate in the forming of our government. He was its champion. NOBODY , in my opinion, did more to contruct the right parameters for a real democracy to flourish. After all it was his words in the declaration of independence that resonated with the revelotionaries of his day.

We all owe the greatest debt to TJ and that includes all democratic nations.

Democracy is what has allowed the world to become as civilzed as we see it today. However civilized as you choose to see it anyway. I can imagine things be a lot worse off today.

j.m fields's picture
j.m fields
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Mar. 11, 2015 2:13 pm

democracy. what an interesting concept. jefferson wrote great rhetoric. yes, he railed against ALL corporations (sorry cornopean but he did) but he truly did not believe in democracy. all of the founders with the exception of paine believed in rule by an elite, an elected elite, but an elite nonetheless. and indeed democracy is a concept which is held in esteem in rhetoric but not so much in the implementation. it is allowed to flourish only as much as when it does not interfere with capitalism. i am no communist but truly examining how democracy has been tied to both the rise of the industrial revolution based upon fossil fuels and at the same time how democracy has been stunted due to those same forces of capitalism and fossil fuels is critical to understanding everything from rights to war to financialization to tin-pot despots and nationalism.

utopianism has no place in reality.

big bird's picture
big bird
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

I do not understand how you can compare someone's philosophy from 230 years ago to someone's philosophy today. A few things have changed that would have changed TJ's thinking.

Legend
Joined:
Nov. 27, 2012 7:46 am

Jefferson was against ANY SINGLE individual or entity having too much power over the nation's agenda. If your view of Libertarianism is simply that each of us should use however much power we may have ammassed to forward our own goals, exclisively, I do not believe that you & Thom J. are on the same page.

Ask yourself what Jefferson would think of the TPP? I tend to believe that TJ's thinking would parallel that of FDR's VP, Henry Thomas, who warned about how the "economic royalists" would combine the power of Government with the power of the marketplace to keep the working man in a perpetrual state of subjugation.

I'd say there are more similarities between Thomas Jefferson & thom Hartmann that between Jefferson and either Koch brother.

mstaggerlee's picture
mstaggerlee
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Yes, Thom H and T Jeff are miles apart. Thom H has never owned another human being and then had the hubris to wax on about human liberty. T Jeff was a hypocrite of the highest order.

RichardofJeffersonCity's picture
RichardofJeffer...
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Jun. 23, 2011 11:31 am

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