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What have Republicons ever done for America's middle class?

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Excuse me, but wasn't it the Dems that pushed through the 900 Billion stimulas in 2009? That program did absolutely nothing but add to the debt. And if the Republicans hadn't stopped it, they would have added another 400 Billion or so in 2011. Yes George W Bush spent too much money, but he was a miser compared to the current occupant of the oval office. Anyone who thinks the Dems are anthing but totally irresponsible with tax dollars is on some serious drugs!

mauiman58's picture
mauiman58
Joined:
Jan. 6, 2012 6:45 pm

However, most economists with any sense suggest the stimulous was about $2 trillion short to do the job.

On the other hand, since the economy has been outsourced, there isn't a whole lot to stimulate.

George Soros suggested a new economic engine...like rapid transitions to green energies...IF it isn't oursouced to China.

When economic capacity is idle, government can simply create and spend the money into existence to utilize it. It needn't borrow the money into existence through factional reserve banking to utilize idle capacity. When the economy is running at full capacity, THEN government has to borrow within the existing money supply to prevent inflation. That currently isn't the case.

The twit Bernanake throwing money at finance.with nothing produced within the economy to back it is creating more problems than he's solving. Bush's twit is now Obama's twit.

Both parties are run by dunces. They probably need lobbyists to tell them how to tie their shoes. The only they know is running for office. The only thing they know about is raising money with promises and hiring marketing agencies to write the speeches.

"Brand" Obama was named the most successful marketing campaign of the year...ahead of even Apple. Great advertising campaign with slogans you can believe in.

Next time you pull the voting lever, ask yourself just which slogan and speech writer you are voting for. Maybe you'd be better off voting for them instead of the official candidate.

When your uneducated Congress Critter needs a clue on how to vote on an issue, he toddles down to a lobbying firm for advice.. He ought to consult a university or two instead, or maybe a few Nobel Laureates. However, they don't contribute to his campaigns

.It isn't a Democratic thing or a Republican thing. Neither could solve a grade school cross word puzzle let alone issues of national importance. The whole structure has become dysfunctional.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease".

polycarp2
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Excuse me, but the stimulis ($787b) kept us from plunging into a deep, dark recession. There is a consensus among legitimate economists that the stimulus spending was necessary and was successful and would have been more successful had it been larger, as was actually required, and didn't waste much of its effectiveness on $300b in tax cuts that have little stimulative effect. The reason that the budget seems to have increased under Obama is because he put the wars back on the books. Under Bush the Congress kept authorizing hundreds of billions in "supplemental" spending so that when you look at a graph it seems like Bush was austere in his spending habits but its really just smoke and mirrors by Republicans to hide their spending binge. Besides that, Democrats return much more of our tax dollars back to the citizenry rather than shovelling it to their crony buddies as military and security state contracts. Republicans funnel money like crazy into pork projects that they convince us we must have but which are really just cash cows for their buddies. Remember "star wars" and now we have the Bush security state apparatus (16 intelligence agencies and nearly a million people with "top secret" security clearance) and we're building a huge, ridiculous fence along the border and you know that hundreds of millions from that project is going right into someone's pocket.

I'd much rather pay 25% in taxes and have a substantial amount of that returned to me in the form of goods and services than to pay 18% in taxes and be screwed out of it.

Mark Zandi: We lost about eight and a half million jobs from the peak to the trough, if we had not had the extraordinary policy efforts, our estimates is that our job losses from peak to trough would be just about double that -- 16 to 17 million.

Alan Blinder: The model says that it would have been terrible without it that we would have had something that realistically would have been called a depression.

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/business/fallout-financial-crisis/measuring-success-stimulus-package

CBO reports stimulus package was a major economic success

http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2011/11/23/cbo-reports-stimulus-package-was-a-major-economic-success/

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mdhess
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Quote mauiman58:

Excuse me, but wasn't it the Dems that pushed through the 900 Billion stimulus in 2009? That program did absolutely nothing but add to the debt.

Listening to Fox or Rush much? OF COURSE the Stimulus did something. It stopped the slide into a depression. Problem is how do you prove something might have happened if not for the stimulus? Like many above, I agree that the stimulus was too small. The reason the GOP rails against it is because while they got their tax cuts, they could not stand for money being used for Democratic priorities. They've spent 30 years trying to put the Dems in a fiscal straightjacket... even as they raid the treasury and create massive debt for their priorities.

Yes George W Bush spent too much money, but he was a miser compared to the current occupant of the oval office. Anyone who thinks the Dems are anything but totally irresponsible with tax dollars is on some serious drugs!
It should be EASY to be miserly if the economy is doing well. Yet Bush couldn't even do that right. He created over 5 trillion in new debt. But then the GOP's plan the past 30 years was to do just that. Bush ran on paying down debt to strengthen Social Security. Yet once in office he put tax cuts before anything else even after the Clinton Surplus disappeared. His present to the Dems was a crashed economy, a collapsed banking sector, two wars, massive deficits and debt. Even Reagan didn't have half as bad yet despite his massive tax cuts, he managed to crash the economy 6 months into office to where unemployment was HIGHER than under Obama by Dec 82. I believe unemployment was over 8% for over two years. All this has been swept under the rug by the Orwellian Right which has rewritten history and declared the Reagan era a glorious success.

While I'm not a fan of Obama, it's easy to use him as a diversion to avoid asking the hard questions about the Right. And I see that tactic has worked with you. The GOP's gotten just about everything it's wanted the past 15-30 years... tax cuts for the rich, free trade, deregulation, union busting, etc etc. So where's that conservative nirvana? What we see is from the Right is absolutely NO remorse, NO rethinking, NO signs they have come to grips with the utter disaster their policies have created. They actually believe their failure was because they weren't crazed enough and have doubled down on their insanity.

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Pierpont
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Feb. 29, 2012 2:19 pm

Again go back to goverments that have been run by liberals (State of Illinois, Greece, Italy) and how all three of these have been bankrupted by overspending by the liberals. The only reason the US is not in exactly the same boat is the 2010 election that threw a whole bunch of liberals out of the US House.

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mauiman58
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Jan. 6, 2012 6:45 pm

It depends on how its run. Can't get blood from a turnip.

The U.S. generates about $160,000 per year for each family of four. If a liberal government attempted to spend more than that per person, it would go broke.

Probably guaranteeing each family $10,000 - $20,000 out of their $160,000 share of the national pie wouldn't bankrupt us.. It would still leave a very, very tidy sum to be distributed to a very few super rich.

A billion dollar bonus might have to be cut to $700 million-$750 million. per year. after taxes. Maybe even cut in half to 1/2 billion a year. I realize that's a hardship, but some seem to manage making less than $2,000,000.00 a day.They could learn.

Maybe take some classes.Learn how to make $60,000,000.00 per month last until the end of the month. Its hard, but the super rich could do it. Classes are availabe free at the local Welfare Office. They teach people how to get by on scraps.Good info like food bank locations, shelters , etc.They are non-discriminatory. Even the rich needn't eat out of a dumpster or sleep on a park bench. Welfare is there to help rich and poor alike with free classes on making do..

You can't pay for a social democacy by expecting a declining middle class and the increasing poor to pay for it.

Expecting Americans who can barely make ends meet to pay for trillion dollar wars is short-sighted in itself, isn't it?. Both political parties need glasses.

Social democracies work just fine when they aren't paid for by those least able to pay for them.

Retired Monk -"Ideology is a disease"

polycarp2
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Quote mauiman58:

Again go back to goverments that have been run by liberals (State of Illinois, Greece, Italy) and how all three of these have been bankrupted by overspending by the liberals. The only reason the US is not in exactly the same boat is the 2010 election that threw a whole bunch of liberals out of the US House.

Yawn. Given your doctrinaire and simplistic opinions, you probably don't deserve any responses that try to deal with reality. You just have no use for it.

I don't give a crap about Illinois, Greece or Italy. Last I heard OUR economy crashed in 08 with BUSH at the helm. I ask again... the Right has gotten just about everything it's wanted these past 3 decades... often with the help of pro-corporate Dems like Clinton. But lest we forget... free trade and deregulation of the banking and commodity sector are RIGHT WING IDEAS. Pray tell, how did Bush's tax cuts for the rich pay down the deficit or prevent a recession?

SO WHERE THE HELL IS YOUR CONSERVATIVE NIRVANA???

Oh ya, we just haven't destroyed unions enough, or undermined the New Deal and Great Society safety net enough, or cut taxes even more for the rich, or deregulated the sociopaths on Wall Street enough...

I know evidence isn't enough for Kool Aid drinkers like yourself. But the sane amongst us realize that when we're in a hole the Right wing made, the best thing we can do IS STOP DIGGING.

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Pierpont
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Feb. 29, 2012 2:19 pm
Quote mauiman58:

Again go back to goverments that have been run by liberals...

BTW, you might want to look at some "conservative" states like Texas to see just how well they'd do without Obama/Democratic Stimulus money. About 288 billion went to tax relief... something you'd think the GOP would favor. Another 144 billion of that money the Right denounces went to prop up states that were having budget problems. Ya, Texas used Obama Stimulus money to reduce its deficits. So do you have ANY problems with THAT $432 billion of the Stimulus? Yes or No? "The remaining 45% or $357 billion is allocated to federal spending programs such as transportation, communication, waste water and sewer infrastructure improvements; energy efficiency upgrades in private and federal buildings; extension of federal unemployment benefits; and scientific research programs."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act_of_2009

Were those last provisions that horrible?

Pray tell.. what would the GOP's response to the Bush Crash be besides more deregulation and tax cuts for the rich which the crash, itself, proved DIDN'T WORK!!! And they didn't work for Reagan back in 1981 either. The Orwellian Right sweeps under the rug Reagan's failures as well as the massive Reagan tax HIKES in 82 and 83.

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Pierpont
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Quote mauiman58:So this is what the liberal Democrats have done for the middle class. Set up the largest Ponzi scheme in history, that's what.

Gee, perhaps. But the idea that investing in the stock market isn't more of a Ponzi Scheme is laughable. An "investor" buys a piece of paper hoping someone down the line will pay more. But those who get out of those inevitable falling markets extract the gains at the expense of those who stay in. But then that's the kind of Ponzi Scheme the GOP likes... one their Wall Street buddies can benefit from.

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Pierpont
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Feb. 29, 2012 2:19 pm
Quote mauiman58:

Excuse me, but wasn't it the Dems that pushed through the 900 Billion stimulas in 2009? That program did absolutely nothing but add to the debt. And if the Republicans hadn't stopped it, they would have added another 400 Billion or so in 2011. Yes George W Bush spent too much money, but he was a miser compared to the current occupant of the oval office. Anyone who thinks the Dems are anthing but totally irresponsible with tax dollars is on some serious drugs!

You don't see the whole picture. Government ( Republican and Democrat ) spends money based on "needs". It is the conservative ideology that creates a massive percentage of those needs. If the conservative ideology of trickle down economics and war, war, war never happened then there wouldn't be such huge unemployment which in turn escalates the needs of the country's citizens.

Democrats spend to help it's citizens and the Republicans spend to help "special" citizens. It is not spending that is hurting this country but "the need" for spending that has us in the situation we are in right now. 50% of this country is now considered the working poor. Hundreds of thousands of public jobs have been lost due to conservative idea's and wages have been kept below a living wage due to conservative idea's. Then when the Democrats don't turn their backs on the people and offer help they are then demonized as "the over spenders".

Based on spending the republicans lay blame on the democrats for the country's financial woes when it's the republicans who caused the necessity for all that spending.

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Bush_Wacker
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Jun. 25, 2011 7:53 am

Quote Capital:Keep thier Taxes low and try and limit the intrusion of Federal government on thier lives.

What exactly are you hoping government will do for Middle Class?

The unfortunate phrasing of the question allows you to evade addressing the issues raised. I think the better question is what has the far Right of the GOP ever done for the working class? And your answer would be what? They cut taxes a bit? Limit intrusion? Do you seriously believe the social conservatives on the Right don't want to use the power of government as part of their efforts to eliminate the right to choose, use birth control, the right to marry for same sex partners, etc? We've seen how intrusive they'll get when in VA wanted pregnant woman to get trans-vaginal ultrasounds. The GOP welcomed the religious Right into their coalition but in doing so have given power to America's Taliban.

Getting back, given that we were 6 TRILLION in debt back in 2001, was the Bush tax cut responsible? No, because it was based in creating even more debt... debt that then would be used to undermine the programs/policies listed above that DID help the working and middle classes. And there's not many on that list that the far Right hasn't questioned... even laws against child labor.

So the reality is the far Right of GOP only intends to DESTROY government policies/programs that help the working and middle classes. Which brings up the obvious next issue... what the hell is in it for you?

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Pierpont
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Feb. 29, 2012 2:19 pm

Quote Pierpont:

The unfortunate phrasing of the question allows you to evade addressing the issues raised. I think the better question is what has the far Right of the GOP ever done for the working class? And your answer would be what?

You’re an idiot.

Aside from the fact one could not define the line of “far right” it would be impossible to distinguish which accomplishments were achieved by this indefinable term. But with it comes to arguing something that can’t be proven. You do excel.

Getting back, given that we were 6 TRILLION in debt back in 2001, was the Bush tax cut responsible? No, because it was based in creating even more debt... debt that then would be used to undermine the programs/policies listed above that DID help the working and middle classes. And there's not many on that list that the far Right hasn't questioned... even laws against child labor.

That is debatable, I agreed with the 2001 tax cut in the face of the DOT com bubble and recession. Whether they would have worked as intended, we will never know. 4 months later was 9/11. As to the Bush 2003, While vastly complicated, I was against those on the grounds we were waging war. Even though the 2003 cut turn unemployment around. So no, Not all conservative jump on board tax cuts.

So the reality is the far Right of GOP only intends to DESTROY government policies/programs that help the working and middle classes. Which brings up the obvious next issue... what the hell is in it for you?

Nothing in it for me.

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Capital
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Sep. 30, 2011 3:51 pm
Quote mauiman58:

Again go back to goverments that have been run by liberals (State of Illinois, Greece, Italy) and how all three of these have been bankrupted by overspending by the liberals. The only reason the US is not in exactly the same boat is the 2010 election that threw a whole bunch of liberals out of the US House.

poly replies: I usually don't refer to Dems to the right of Republican Pres. Nixon as liberals...that's the majority of them,.

Liberals do this:

"FDR and Harry Hopkins created 4 million jobs in 2 months. The moneychangers and "economic royalists" were scourged for their fraud and profiteering" http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2012/03/market-god-has-failed An equivalent in the size of today's economy/population would be 12 million jobs in 2 months.

Historically conservative philosophy is this:

"The land wars were a reaction to efforts by the English to apply to Ireland the Enclosure Acts, a policy that sold “common land” to private landowners and forced the rural population of England, Scotland and Wales into the hellishness of industrial Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool.

As Laura Nader and Ugo Mattei maintain in their book “Plunder: When the rule of law is illegal,” what is currently happening in Ireland (and all over Europe) is a 21st century version of the Enclosure Acts. The last vestiges of public ownership are being systematically auctioned to the highest bidder, and the concept of “the common good” is fading like the ghost of providence.

Much of the economic crisis in Europe—and virtually all of it in Ireland— is due to the out-of-control speculation by German banks, along with the Dutch, Austrian, and French financial institutions. “Yet it is the working people of Ireland and Europe who are being asked to pay the price,” http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/03/16/irelands-debt-and-the-heart-of-otoole/

. Greece isn't the only country to have its social programs thrown into the toilet, wages cut 20+% and pensions sucked dry at the behest of financial royalists,

The dream of U.S. conservative leadership is to follow suit. Privatize everything in sight and bleed the population to further enrich a few..Take off your blinders and watch it continue to unfold in the U.S. . Policies of previous Dems created the middle class. The current bunch is helping to systematically destroy it.

Dems Party leadership isn't liberal. The Party of FDR died a long time ago. In attacking "liberals", you're attacking a nearly non-existent foe.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

polycarp2
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote polycarp2:

Historically conservative philosophy is this:

Nice shell game..

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Capital
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Sep. 30, 2011 3:51 pm

How about some content in refutation instead of your curling up into your own shell game. What do you think "privatization" is other than the enclosure of the Commons.

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DRC
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote DRC:

How about some content in refutation instead of your curling up into your own shell game. What do you think "privatization" is other than the enclosure of the Commons.

I assume you are talking to Poly for his ridiculous use of Europe to describe conservative philosophy with the asinine accretion that Greece troubles are because of Conservative ideology. When clearly Greece’s troubles are the result of Liberal overspending. He just doesn’t like that conservative have to clean up liberal messes AGAIN.

Maybe I respond to content when I actually see some.

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Capital
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Sep. 30, 2011 3:51 pm

Quote Capital:

Quote Pierpont:

The unfortunate phrasing of the question allows you to evade addressing the issues raised. I think the better question is what has the far Right of the GOP ever done for the working class? And your answer would be what?

You’re an idiot.

Aside from the fact one could not define the line of “far right” it would be impossible to distinguish which accomplishments were achieved by this indefinable term. But with it comes to arguing something that can’t be proven. You do excel.

Let me see if I understand your comment. Because YOU don't know who the Far Right is in the US, then I'm the idiot? ROTF I see your comments here are as amusing and vacuous as they were in the Second Amendment thread.

And thanks for proving you intend to evade the questions being posed.

As for who the far Right is... in the US it's a coalition of several groups. The main political group that pulls the strings are those determined to destroy all the progress of the 20th century by undermining the New Deal and Great Society safety nets... and regulation of the private sector. They want a nation where the government is there to benefit the wealthy and has no power to help the common person or interfere with their exploitation. Their strategy the past thirty years is to create massive debt with irresponsible tax cuts and spending hoping we'll not just be unable to create more programs but be able to sabotage the existing ones. Since this is clearly a minority agenda, they need useful idiots they can exploit to create a governing majority... Social Conservatives… our homegrown Taliban, who only care about abortion, God, gays... Gun Nuts, ultra-nationalists, and racists. None of this is to say these groups are mutually exclusive. The right wing religious group known as The Family uses a warped bastardization of religion to justify the rich... those blessed by God, exploiting the poor... those not in God's graces.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120746516

I didn't think this was a secret. But then knowledge doesn't seem to be your forte.

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Pierpont
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Quote Pierpont:

Let me see if I understand your comment. Because YOU don't know who the Far Right is in the US, then I'm the idiot? ROTF I see your comments here are as amusing and vacuous as they were in the Second Amendment thread.

And thanks for proving you intend to evade the questions being posed.

Nice to see you didn't try to refute the idiot claim and accepted it.

You are correct, I have intention of answer to ridiculously vague, indefinable political platitude of an idiot. You win…. Yea for Peirpont….

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Capital
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Quote Pierpont to Capital:Limit intrusion? Do you seriously believe the social conservatives on the Right don't want to use the power of government as part of their efforts to eliminate the right to choose, use birth control, the right to marry for same sex partners, etc? We've seen how intrusive they'll get when in VA wanted pregnant woman to get trans-vaginal ultrasounds. The GOP welcomed the religious Right into their coalition but in doing so have given power to America's Taliban.

In Pennsylvania the far Right there is also planning to pass an intrusive vaginal ultrasound requirement for women considering an abortion. The Gov said the women won't be forced to look at the screen. And you wonder why I consider them America's Taliban? What do you believe they'd be like if not constrained by the Constitution or an enlightened majority that just won't put up with these Neanderthal throwbacks? In a generation they'd believe the world is flat. In two generations they'd be back to burning "witches" because the Bible commanded them to.

http://www.politicolnews.com/pennsylvania-to-pass-invasive-ultrasound-bill-for-women/

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Pierpont
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Quote Capital:

Quote Pierpont:

Let me see if I understand your comment. Because YOU don't know who the Far Right is in the US, then I'm the idiot? ROTF I see your comments here are as amusing and vacuous as they were in the Second Amendment thread.

And thanks for proving you intend to evade the questions being posed.

Nice to see you didn't try to refute the idiot claim and accepted it.

You are correct, I have intention of answer to ridiculously vague, indefinable political platitude of an idiot. You win…. Yea for Peirpont….

Seems you've been reduced to namecalling and evasion... the hallmark of who's lost the argument and just doesn't have the sense to either retract or stop digging one's self in deeper hole. Explain again why you even believe you your posts are even worth reading. Never mind. We don't need more of your delusions.

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Pierpont
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Feb. 29, 2012 2:19 pm
Quote Pierpont:

In Pennsylvania

<ding> moving on.

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Capital
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Sep. 30, 2011 3:51 pm
Quote Pierpont:

Seems you've been reduced to namecalling and evasion...

In tha absence of content and substance... it helps pass the time.. Frankly the idiot a part comes from your "massive Reagan tax HIKES" Anybody with half a brain would know that those 2 tax hikes equaled to 1/2 of the orginal Tax Cut. So he took half the tax cut back by closing loopholes and deductions. yippe..

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Capital
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Sep. 30, 2011 3:51 pm

Good, a point of engagement. The Reagan tax shift of the burden away from the rich and onto the Middle Class did include a pull back from his original ideological lust for Supply Side. It is the massive Reagan budget deficits that really matter. The record of Republican "spending" and "waste" is enormous, with the Democrats balancing the books and running the Empire much better, if you buy into the idea of Empire and this economy.

What this means is that if we take the Republican/conservative case and metrics, the Democrats were the better conservatives and the Republicans were the wastrel spenders. In terms of raw economic stimulation, all the spending went somewhere, but not where it was needed as the infrastructure crumbled and the wages and incomes of the Middle Class lagged far behind the growth at the top.

If you think of this as a flawed economic approach to begin with, neither side has really dealt with the fraud of Wall Street or done what Main Street and the Middle Class has really needed for a long time. Progressives have been left out of the loop to the detriment of America.

The "loopholes" and "deductions" Reagan closed were of the Middle Class more than at the top too.

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DRC
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Quote DRC:

Good, a point of engagement. The Reagan tax shift of the burden away from the rich and onto the Middle Class did include a pull back from his original ideological lust for Supply Side. It is the massive Reagan budget deficits that really matter.

What really matters is that He won the Cold War and brought down the Berlin Wall and help create the Economic Power house of Germany we know today.

Now regarding the much despised Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981. Passed with Bipartisen support 349-103, accurately known as Kemp-Roth Tax Cuts.

The record of Republican "spending" and "waste" is enormous, with the Democrats balancing the books and running the Empire much better, if you buy into the idea of Empire and this economy

To bad Facts generally laugh at that.

Who held control of the House for the 97th, 98th, 99th and 100th congress? I assume you understand the significance of why I ask that.

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Capital
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Sep. 30, 2011 3:51 pm

Woopeee, another whopper! Gorbachev ended the Cold War, not Ronnie Popular. We wasted a lot of money on the amped up Cold War and phony Star Wars. I know you guys love the American Empire and all that, but it really is a pack of lies.

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DRC
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Actually I am considering moving from Illinois toTexas to avoid the 5% state income tax that Illinois has. So you tell me, why is it that a state run by conservatives (Texas) has no income tax and is doing fine, while Illinois, run by the Democrats, has a 5% state income tax and is about to go bankrupt?

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mauiman58
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Quote DRC:

Woopeee, another whopper! Gorbachev ended the Cold War, not Ronnie Popular. We wasted a lot of money on the amped up Cold War and phony Star Wars. I know you guys love the American Empire and all that, but it really is a pack of lies.

Amazing what you will cling to from a post.... skip the substance cling to the platitudes.

Mostly becuase you can't face the truth.

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Capital
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Sep. 30, 2011 3:51 pm

Unable to defend or retract his claim that the Right/GOP is against government intrusian into our private lives, Cap evades again...

Quote Capital:

<ding> moving on.

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Pierpont
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Feb. 29, 2012 2:19 pm
Quote Capital:
Quote Pierpont:

Seems you've been reduced to namecalling and evasion...

In tha absence of content and substance... it helps pass the time.. Frankly the idiot a part comes from your "massive Reagan tax HIKES" Anybody with half a brain would know that those 2 tax hikes equaled to 1/2 of the orginal Tax Cut. So he took half the tax cut back by closing loopholes and deductions. yippe..

Yawn, more Orwellian Rewriting of the Reagan Era. So in your mind, a tax hike like that in 1982 which was "was the biggest tax increase of the period measured in constant dollars and as a percentage of GDP." isn't massive? And let's not forget there were TWO tax hikes in 82... plus one in 83. Ironically, the economy improved despite these tax hikes.

Source:

REVENUE EFFECTS OF MAJOR TAX BILLS by Jerry Tempalski U.S. Department of the TreasuryOTA Working Paper 81 Revised September 2006

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Pierpont
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Quote Capital:

[quote=DRC]

Woopeee, another whopper! Gorbachev ended the Cold War, not Ronnie Popular. We wasted a lot of money on the amped up Cold War and phony Star Wars. I know you guys love the American Empire and all that, but it really is a pack of lies.

Seems you're determined to hijack this thread... posting on everything EXCEPT the actual topic of this thread. I don't believe I'm going to assist you any longer. Your inability to defend the economic policies of the far Right wing of the GOP is pretty evident. Which makes your hypocrisy in your following statement even more amusing.

Amazing what you will cling to from a post.... skip the substance cling to the platitudes.

Mostly becuase you can't face the truth.

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Pierpont
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Please go to texas, as I said to Kerry. If that is heaven, you don't have to believe in hell. You can feel real comfortable reading the history textbooks they adopt. Just stay out of Austin.

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DRC
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Quote Pierpont:Unable to defend or retract his claim that the Right/GOP is against government intrusian into our private lives, Cap evades again...

You be sure to let me know when that issue goes national.

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Capital
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Quote Pierpont:

Yawn, more Orwellian Rewriting of the Reagan Era. So in your mind, a tax hike like that in 1982 which was "was the biggest tax increase of the period measured in constant dollars and as a percentage of GDP." isn't massive? And let's not forget there were TWO tax hikes in 82... plus one in 83. Ironically, the economy improved despite these tax hikes.

So mister Orwellian, What is Twice Massive? Galactic? Super Duper?

What else did you learn about TEFRA 1982? That Reagan signed after he thought he had a deal for a $3 cut in spending for $1 tax increase. No cuts were ever made.

Since you are a Orwellian detective, I'm sure you don't need me having fun with that sentence.

Imagine what the deficit would be had Congress done what they promised. But since the House was Democrat.....

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Capital
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Quote mauiman58:

Actually I am considering moving from Illinois toTexas to avoid the 5% state income tax that Illinois has. So you tell me, why is it that a state run by conservatives (Texas) has no income tax and is doing fine, while Illinois, run by the Democrats, has a 5% state income tax and is about to go bankrupt?

Is that the topic of this thread? Just what does "doing fine" mean? BTW, did you address the matter of Perry using Democratic Stimulus money to balance two of his budgets? http://www.texastribune.org/texas-politics/2012-presidential-election/love-hate-thing-stimulus-money/

As for why TX might be in a slightly better position... IT HAS OIL.... and it also saves money by treating it's people poorly. A full 25% of Texans have no health insurance. In Mass under RomneyCare, it's 1.9%. (Source NPR news story that was just on) Spending per student is down.. and now TX is 37th of the 50 states. http://www.dallasnews.com/news/state/headlines/20110128-texas-slips-in-per-pupil-education-spending-among-states.ece.

Now do you intend to address the topic of this thread or not?

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AGAIN Cap tries to hijack this thread... and EVADES the topic:

Quote Capital:So mister Orwellian, What is Twice Massive? Galactic? Super Duper?

Yawn.

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Quote Pierpont:

Seems you're determined to hijack this thread...

Don't you think your being a bit hard on DRC.

We've already covered the Topic, where have you been?

I Already listed some of the GOP accomplishment, Those accomplishment made the Left's head explode and then we started in on Old party - New Party crap. Then a while Dichotomy screwing a football argument, the lists was finally posted to the first post…. I assume everyone is still laughing their asses off and are incapable of adequately defending the list and qualifying language.

So here we are trading barb's.

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Because you really have nothing recent, like in the last 60 years, to add. And, you have to ignore Taft-Hartley and other really bad stuff done to the Middle Class before then. Our heads only explode at the idea that you think you have a case.

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Quote DRC:

Because you really have nothing recent, like in the last 60 years, to add. And, you have to ignore Taft-Hartley and other really bad stuff done to the Middle Class before then. Our heads only explode at the idea that you think you have a case.

Have you seen the list on the Front, At least I have tax cuts to the Middle class, which is quite a bit more than you in the last 60 years.

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I suppose I would seem ungrateful if I didn't thank the GOP for removing all barriers to immigrant labor, allowing me to get lots of fast food items for less than a buck.

Thanks!

chilidog
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Quote chilidog:

I suppose I would seem ungrateful if I didn't thank the GOP for removing all barriers to immigrant labor, allowing me to get lots of fast food items for less than a buck.

Thanks!

poly replies: It's a good thing, too. With the decline in real purchasing power, you couldn't afford a fast food meal without 'em.

.We should probably have cheap immigant labor do everything. We could all live off the dole like the citizens of the Roman Empire did and never have to work again.

Bring Iraqi captives home and put 'em to work for free! Rome was on to something. Too bad it didn't work out. It went bankrupt. No one left with an income to pay taxes. It couldn't pay its military and the whole thing went downhill.

Retired Monk -"Ideology is a disease"

polycarp2
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No, capital, you have tax cuts for the RICH and maybe they go down toward the Middle Class, but the latter got peanuts compared to the tons of cash the rich raked in. They also got reduced public services and the ability to pay top dollar for bad insurance in healthcare. They get to pay more for power, and if they wanted to have an income, they got sucker punched there too.

And, of course, they get to pay for a huge military buildup and Star Wars which also goes to the crony capitalists and not to the benefit of all. They get to pay for higher college education, etc. Reagan sure was wonderful for the Middle Class. In your fevered mind.

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There is an old saying that applies here" Give a man a fish, he eats for one day. Teach him to fish, he eats for the rest of his life". The state of Texas does not believe in handouts, they expect you to support yourself. Don't whine and cry, go out and find a way to support yourself.

As far as oil goes, look at what the Democrats have done to the Alaska pipeline. They have just about taxed it out of existance. And when it is suggested that perhaps they might want to lower the taxes on the oil that goes through the pipeline, the liberal politicians scream "You are suggesting we give back 3 billion dollars a year to the oil companies. No way!". Meanwhile all the rigs are moving to North Dakota where they can make more money. And the flow through the pipeline is getting close to where is simply will not flow any more.

Look at Texas, a state with run by the Republicans, with no state income tax against Alaska, where the Democrats got enough control to tax their pipeline out of existance. Who has helped the middle class more? Ask the Alaska residents that when the Alaska pipeline gets dismantled and all the tax revenues go to zero. This is what "progressives" do.

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Quote Capital:Do I believe that party’s remain static. To their core ideals yes, to the superfluous ideals no. Regardless of whatever individual ideal spurred whichever outcome, The Party names, and the Party History transcends through time.

You ignorance about the political realities of our political system are almost as comic as your belief that the Framers meant the Bill Of Rights to apply to slaves.

Painting with a broad brush here: with only two viable parties the past 160 years, the parties routinely steal issues and constituencies from each other, often to triangulate to create new coalitions to form governing majorities. Doctrines like states rights go in and out of fashion. The result is there are few core values these parties hold. The GOP originally wanted to free slaves, yet within about 30-40 years the GOP bought into the same mentality slave owners had: the economy exists for the rich and let workers to be exploited. The South loathed the GOP and was solidly for the Dems, as long as they were largely racist leading to the Dixiecrats. FDR saved capitalism from the capitalists and engendered enormous loyalty. The With IKE some of the GOP moderated and bought into the New Deal reforms that the far Right detested... and do to this day. You raised the issue of the interstate highway act, but since when do right wingers favor such massive federal infrastructure projects? An effort was made back in the 50's by people like William Buckley to eject the loonies from the party. But they had nowhere else to go, they'd be back as they were with Goldwater. LBJ knew the Dems would lose the south for a generation if he passed civil rights legislation and he was mostly right. Nixon saw this as an opening and had his Southern Strategy. After the McGovern loss, the DLC pushed the Dems towards "the center" and to be business friendly. Reagan formed a new coalition with Christian Fundies. Under Reagan the GOP gave up fiscal responsibility and adopted a strategy of fiscal irresponsibility to undermine the New Deal and Great Society programs… but they could never be honest about their plans and used the same old language. Clinton stole the issue of fiscal responsibility, free trade and welfare reform from the GOP hoping to get corporate money even as he was sabotaging unions. He knew the unions had nowhere else to go. Clinton also bought into deregulation. But those were ideas from the Right. Bush went totally insane promising to pay down debt to strengthen Social Security then did everything he could to destroy the fiscal health of the federal govt.

Where you see static political parties, in reality they are as dynamic as they are dysfunctional. But of course if you were intellectually honest about this… you'd not be able to claim the GOP of today must be credited with what the GOP of the 1860's accomplished. But if you don't, you don't really have much of a list for what the GOP... or as I think is more accurate... the far Right of the GOP has done for working or middle class people. But feel free to continue making foolish comments.

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Quote Pierpont:

Quote Capital:Do I believe that party’s remain static. To their core ideals yes, to the superfluous ideals no. Regardless of whatever individual ideal spurred whichever outcome, The Party names, and the Party History transcends through time.

You ignorance about the political realities of our political system are almost as comic as your belief that the Framers meant the Bill Of Rights to apply to slaves.

Painting with a broad brush here: with only two viable parties the past 160 years, the parties routinely steal issues and constituencies from each other, often to triangulate to create new coalitions to form governing majorities. Doctrines like states rights go in and out of fashion. The result is there are few core values these parties hold. The GOP originally wanted to free slaves, yet within about 30-40 years the GOP bought into the same mentality slave owners had: the economy exists for the rich and let workers to be exploited. The South loathed the GOP and was solidly for the Dems, as long as they were largely racist leading to the Dixiecrats. FDR saved capitalism from the capitalists and engendered enormous loyalty. The With IKE some of the GOP moderated and bought into the New Deal reforms that the far Right detested... and do to this day. You raised the issue of the interstate highway act, but since when do right wingers favor such massive federal infrastructure projects? An effort was made back in the 50's by people like William Buckley to eject the loonies from the party. But they had nowhere else to go, they'd be back as they were with Goldwater. LBJ knew the Dems would lose the south for a generation if he passed civil rights legislation and he was mostly right. Nixon saw this as an opening and had his Southern Strategy. After the McGovern loss, the DLC pushed the Dems towards "the center" and to be business friendly. Reagan formed a new coalition with Christian Fundies. Under Reagan the GOP gave up fiscal responsibility and adopted a strategy of fiscal irresponsibility to undermine the New Deal and Great Society programs… but they could never be honest about their plans and used the same old language. Clinton stole free trade and welfare reform from the GOP hoping to get corporate money even as he was sabotaging unions. He knew the unions had nowhere else to go. Clinton also bought into deregulation. But those were ideas from the Right.

Where you see static political parties, in reality they are as dynamic as they are dysfunctional. But of course if you were intellectually honest about this… you'd not be able to claim the GOP of today must be credited with what the GOP of the 1860's accomplished. But if you don't, you don't really have much of a list for what the GOP... or as I think is more accurate... the far Right of the GOP has done for working or middle class people. But feel free to continue making foolish comments.

Sweet! Nice synopsis of the hamster wheel sham that is our 2 party system. So, where does Obama's 8 years in the hamster wheel lead us? I'm going out on a limb here and assuming the GOP knows damn well it ain't their turn to get back in the wheel.

Hey Capital: Where would William Jennings Bryan, the Democratic presidential candidate who was opposed to Evolution in the Scopes Monkey Trial fit into your "core ideals" concept?

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Laborisgood
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Quote mauiman58:As far as oil goes, look at what the Democrats have done...
Blah blah… you start with Illinois and Texas and suddenly we're on Alaska and North Dakota?

After reading enough of your posts, you remind of my dad. No, it's hardly a complement. No matter what we discussed or debated, if he didn't want to accept anything that didn't fit his belief system, he'd constantly move to another topic. So 40 years could pass and even the most simple issues never got "resolved". For example, he STILL refused to accept a simple fact that much of what we considered taste was really our olfactory sense. Yet if he cared about the truth… he COULD have easily found out on his own 40 years ago. The problem was he never cared about the truth. He was quite satisfied with the illusion of truth and his own infallibility. Truth was never anything he valued. If he had, he'd have set higher standards for what he chose to believe as fact.

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Quote mauiman58:Look at Texas, a state with run by the Republicans, with no state income tax against Alaska, where the Democrats got enough control to tax their pipeline out of existence. Who has helped the middle class more? Ask the Alaska residents that when the Alaska pipeline gets dismantled and all the tax revenues go to zero. This is what "progressives" do.

My God, WTF are you even babbling about? Alaska is a Welfare State. Not only does it get much more in federal money than it pays in taxes, residents get oil royalties. So is that socialism?

Do you see any Republicans here in the lower 48 states who want to grant direct royalties to US citizens for minerals/oil extracted from federal lands?

So pray tell... just which policy do you support?

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Quote DRC:

No, capital, you have tax cuts for the RICH and maybe they go down toward the Middle Class, but the latter got peanuts compared to the tons of cash the rich raked in. They also got reduced public services and the ability to pay top dollar for bad insurance in healthcare. They get to pay more for power, and if they wanted to have an income, they got sucker punched there too.

And, of course, they get to pay for a huge military buildup and Star Wars which also goes to the crony capitalists and not to the benefit of all. They get to pay for higher college education, etc. Reagan sure was wonderful for the Middle Class. In your fevered mind.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, But I seem to recall the Tax cuts were equal across the Board. Meaning the Middle class keeps the same percetange of thier incomes as the Rich. Hopefully this isn't a case you whining that the Rich saved more in total dollars. Because that's just stupid.

Who constitutionally authorized the spending over lagging revenues during the Reagan years? DEMOCRATS!!! Let's blame that guys who couldn't spend a Nickel from the treasury without permission. That is always intellectually honest.

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Capital
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Quote Pierpont:

You ignorance about the political realities of our political system are almost as comic as your belief that the Framers meant the Bill Of Rights to apply to slaves.

You are so adorable in the morning. Impotent intellectualism.

The result is there are few core values these parties hold. The GOP originally wanted to free slaves, yet within about 30-40 years the GOP bought into the same mentality slave owners had: the economy exists for the rich and let workers to be exploited

That is interesting POV, I would however counter with Democrats have never really given up their dreams of Slavery and work to this day to bring the population to economic slavery of the Federal Government. As it stands, nearly half the population is economically beholden to government teat. But like Greece, resources are finite.

Democrats have remarkably retained the African American demographic which I am guessing is mostly due to the Stockholm syndrome. Instead of treating them like equals, democrats continue to treat them as special, and how doesn’t want to be special.

So no, I do not think Democrats slavery ways are behind them.

LBJ knew the Dems would lose the south for a generation if he passed civil rights legislation and he was mostly right. Nixon saw this as an opening and had his Southern Strategy.

Except the Dems didn’t loss the South, Someone already brought up the Bullshit “Southern Strategy” Mississippi didn’t go Red until early 2000’s. It really is too bad you guys have such delusions you all argue from. Really warps the entire premise of your reality.

Under Reagan the GOP gave up fiscal responsibility and adopted a strategy of fiscal irresponsibility to undermine the New Deal and Great Society programs…

Feel free to educate yourself on the Political Party in majority control of the House of Representatives during the entire presidency of Reagan.

But of course if you were intellectually honest about this… you'd not be able to claim the GOP of today must be credited with what the GOP of the 1860's accomplished.

I do enjoy your hypocrisy. Hence the entire crutch of the thread. If the left gets to disassociate early GOP with late GOP, Than it is perfectly reasonable that to disassociate early DEMS with late DEMS. In that case, most of your list disappears.

So while you appear to be gifted at ranting, I need a bit more substance to find something to discuss.

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Capital
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Sep. 30, 2011 3:51 pm

Quote Capital:Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, But I seem to recall the Tax cuts were equal across the Board. Meaning the Middle class keeps the same percetange of thier incomes as the Rich. Hopefully this isn't a case you whining that the Rich saved more in total dollars. Because that's just stupid.
Gee, so given our progressive income tax, you're claiming that an across the board cut would NOT benefit the rich more? They'd benefit more in TWO ways... absolute dollars, AND benefit from that progressive tax structure.
Who constitutionally authorized the spending over lagging revenues during the Reagan years? DEMOCRATS!!!

Demonstrating more ignorance of how our system works? It's like claiming Liberal Dems were for NAFTA just because Clinton put together a coalition of GOPers and conservatives Dems to pass it. This is what Reagan did to past ERTA. And BTW, Reagan NEVER submitted a balanced budget.

History set up quite the experiment between the 70's and 80's. When Dems were in control... the CUMULATIVE DEBT never reached more than about 960 billion... nothing to be proud of, but at least it wasn't grotesque fiscal irresponsibility. Reagan almost tripled that debt in his 8 years leaving the nation with about 2.7 trillion in debt.

In the mind of a political partisan, their side gets all the credit, and the other side gets all the blame. So, of course... for you Reagan is blameless for his Voodoo Economics and it's all the Dem's fault.

Are there any intelligent right wingers out there? Not in this thread.

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Pierpont
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Feb. 29, 2012 2:19 pm

Quote Capital:
But of course if you were intellectually honest about this… you'd not be able to claim the GOP of today must be credited with what the GOP of the 1860's accomplished.

I do enjoy your hypocrisy. Hence the entire crutch of the thread. If the left gets to disassociate early GOP with late GOP, Than it is perfectly reasonable that to disassociate early DEMS with late DEMS. In that case, most of your list disappears.

Again, your ignorance of our political system is not my fault. While you believe PARTIES have core beliefs, I maintain FACTIONS of parties show that consistency. The far Right of the GOP might retain ideological consistency. That doesn't mean they always control the GOP which at times had been moderate. Likewise, the Liberal wing of the Democratic Party might retain ideological consistency even if the Party strays to the right as it did under Clinton and even Obama.

So I'd argue that it was the LIBERAL wing of the Dems that gave us most of those reforms Thom named… and it was the far Right of the GOP that opposed them... as they do to this day. To deny this simple truth about American politics is to be intellectually dishonest. But then I expect nothing less from someone who actually believes the Framers intended the Bill Of Rights to apply to slaves. Oh, but you ran away from that thread.

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Feb. 29, 2012 2:19 pm

How Do We Take Back the Military From the Billionaire Owned Military Industrial Complex?

Thom plus logo Democrats (Bernie & Lee) in the senate proposed legislation saying what the Constitution already says: that Trump can't go to war with Iran without congressional authorization. Every Republican on the committee, except Rand Paul, voted against it.
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