MERRY CHRISTMAS, Christianity help bring down the Roman Empire, can "Morality bring down the present empire"?

On July 23, 2016, we discontinued our forums. We ask our members to please join us in our new community site, The Hartmann Report. Please note that you will have to register a new account on The Hartmann Report.

5 posts / 0 new

Do the 1% have any "morals to stand on"? If any, what`re they? What is the moral for "usury"? What`s the moral of the rich getting rich and the poor get getting poorer? What`s the moral of capitalism making slaves out of workers and destroying the eco-system with waste and over production? What`s the moral of telling people to worry about paying the mortgage when the house is burning?(spending vs austerity) The Roman Empire was a dictatorship and fell. Present dictatorship is economic and "MORALITY" will fell it.

tayl44's picture
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm


Yup, generally the task in governing is to account for what works with human beings in a social setting, and "morality" is that interplay between what we become convinced needs to be observed and what actually does need observing. (Moral is the measure of humanity in anything it modifies). If we do the secular equivalent of following the leading of the Holy Spirit of the Providential Hand of God, we take care of what serves our humanity and our survival/flourishing.

What is interesting and a challenge for 'liberal/progressives' such as I identify with, is that human nature may be less "fixed" than we contend and the broad range of anthropological and sociological diversity we find suggests that "democracy" is more about inclusive participation in power than any particular social model or structure.

What does it mean to be "free?" Some see it as getting no help in order to be independent and others see it as being free from fear and privation to be able to imagine and explore with creative elan, knowing that we support social "born again" opportunity. If our morality defined by self-sufficiency clashes with the morality of caring for the weak and vulnerable, how do we do the both/and of loving freely and being freed by love in these political narratives of 'virtue?'

We see in Asia a much more settled interdependence than in the raiders of Europe or the moralists of the Age of Reason. Without defending 'caste' as a better idea, we need to appreciate that what has worked in human socieities ranges broadly, and what we propose has a shaky record if we need to show what human beings have done--unless we embrace the creative fact that we can design what we want and need.

BUT, we need to do so with the material at hand and in the situation in which we find ourselves. As we experience things falling apart and the Apocalypse in the environment rather than from "the heavens," we will need to be creative and imaginative rather than shocked, awed and desperate.

Apr. 26, 2012 12:15 pm

In my reading of history and the fate of governments there are two pillars that political power rests upon:

1) actual power -- can you actually weld a degree of influence over the population?

2) legitimacy -- do people think you have the right to influence them

On this second point the immorality of the current ruling class certainty strikes a mortal wound to their legitmacy. People in this part of the world require that of their leaders.

So, yes, already the immorality of this empire is already undercutting its ability to rule right here in the USA.

DenisePf's picture
Dec. 16, 2012 1:35 pm

This nicely fits in with the story of the first imperial Chinese Kingdom of Xia. As it is told, those who were entrusted with power to rule became corrupt by generations until the kingdom was oppressed by immorality. At some tipping point, the Creator said, "This is it for you people," and the order of the world was turned over like an hour glass and the worthy put into place.

leighmf's picture
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

drc2, you ask some very important questions of "democracy,freedom and morality". None of the definitions are set in stone. The 1% use morality of "might make right",what`s might? Could it be control of money, which translate to all kinds of power? The bigger picture would show the "might make right of the 99% vs the 1%, whose might would be stronger? I hope i live to see the day when the "people control the money"! Drc2, you ask good questions and you have good answers, "We need to be creative and imaginative rather than shocked, awed and desperate". Denise, i agree with your post. When "might don`t make right", it lose legitimacy. Leig, what do you think of the communist Chinese using capitalism to avoid a "tipping point"?

tayl44's picture
Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Conservatives supposedly hate freeloading. So why are they trying to legalize it?

Conservatives supposedly hate freeloaders.

So why do they support right to work laws - which literally legalize freeloading?

Our nation's nine unelected monarchs on the Supreme Court are poised to deal yet another blow to organized labor.

Powered by Pressflow, an open source content management system