Tea Party Threats Are Not Blackmail. They Are Extortionists! Add Hostage Takers!

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This thread is a bunch of progressive lies and blame game bullshit. They have convinced themselves and their band of sheople that this is all Boehner's fault. In fact most polls show that both repubs and dems are getting the blame for the shut down.

Bonnie Alba on progressive fear of the teaparty, "Those who throw immoral and corrupt barbs at us FEAR losing what they have gained over decades — control plus power. These ideologues have promised a "salvation in this world" they can never fulfill. We have to commit for the long term. We will spend the next 10, 20 and 50 years, if that's what it takes, to streamline our government and return to constitutional governance."

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/alba/110120

I wish more Republicans had the guts to stand up and take credit for trying to stop this law. I wish fewer Americans were so easily manipulated by media. Nevertheless, the truth is what it is: Obama-care is the greatest attack on the American way of life in four generations. It will kill more Americans than al-Qaeda’s wildest dreams, and it will bankrupt us more rapidly than even our already spiraling expenditures would manage, reducing the whole nation to poverty. Who is willing to shut down government in order to carry this monstrosity forward, and what must be the nature of their motives? They might claim “compassion,” but the truth is that Obama-care represents the naked aggression of the state against its people.

After all, where is the compassion of Democrats for all the people who won’t be hired tomorrow because employers do not wish to increase their liability under the law? Isn’t it cheaper and easier to outsource to Asia than to hire an American? Where is the compassion of Democrats for all the Americans who are having their hours cut, in order to get below the Obama-care maximum part-time hours? Where is the compassion for all of the people who will now die prematurely, unnecessarily, because Obama-care will limit what sort of procedures may be done or which medical devices might be used on a particular patient? If you want to know the real compassion of Obama-care, it is encapsulated in the President’s infamous counsel to a 2009 town-hall questioner that granny ought to just take a [pain] pill rather than put her survivors through the expense of keeping her alive.

The truth about Democrats’ alleged compassion is that it extends in every direction in which they can easily buy political support, but in no direction at all when it cuts into their power. Democrats’ compassion isn’t for all the individual lives they will wreck in all the ways Obama-care will accomplish, but instead for the sake of their own political advantage. For power, they are willing to shut down government, starve granny, and hand her a pain pill if she becomes too loud in her agony. When people argue over who is willing to shut down government, we should all recognize the sad fact of the matter at least in this case: The Republicans are merely trying to stop a disaster from wrecking the whole country, but otherwise willing to continue funding government pretty much as-is. The President and his party of shameless power-hungry looters are willing to starve anybody if it will carry their newest program forward.

Americans should be calling their Senators, Democrat and Republican, to insist on joining Ted Cruz and Mike Lee on the de-funding of Obama-care, or simply resign themselves to take their pills and be quiet about it.

http://markamerica.com/2013/09/21/whos-really-trying-to-shut-down-government/

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klb10
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Aug. 13, 2013 11:24 am

I'd suggest the Tea Party folks stop dumping booze into the tea pot. Maybe they could think more clearly.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

polycarp2
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Littlehammer, do you think the tea bagger congressmen will brag about shutting down the govt at rallies in 2014?

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Phaedrus76
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Sep. 14, 2010 8:21 pm

Then I guess Americans like to drink, because more and more polls show that more Americans identify with the Teaparty than either the republican or democratic parties. That is why they BOTH fear and talk down the teaparty, even to the point of flat out lies as to what they have done and stand for.

By its very nature of diversity it represents different things to different people. One thing is certain they are all FOR limited federal government according to the Constitution, capitalism with free enterprise, tax reform, sovereignty of the states consistent with the Constitution, border control, fiscal responsibility, individual freedom and less government in their lives. Unlikely to become a major party, mainly by the fact that the 2 corporate parties have made the rules of the politics and thier control of the media exclusionary to ANY third party movement gaining power.

Just listen to the fucking shit MSNBC's dickhead Shuster is trying to bait Kevin Jackson with. Jackson does an excellent job of refuting this idiot. This is the kind of shit the dems LIE about because of their FEAR of people who identify with the teaparty and who do not agree with their socialist crap.

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=Agapy0.FbSALLAJdLiYJEMubvZx4?p=Lies+about+teaparty+racism+and+violence&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-900

Why was dissent patriotic when Bush was in office but considered racist and violent with Obama office? Because that is standard operating proceedure of the democratic party when they fear their opposition tto lie about them and demean them. Smear your enemy.

http://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?p=Why+the+tea+party+is+so+feared+by+progressives

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klb10
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http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2013/10/why-do-smart-re...

Sorry klb, statistical reality is different from conservative mythology.
Part time workers have been declining as a percentage of the workforce since 2009.
& if this Obamacare/ forced health insurance will destroy the national economy, how long does that take? I ask because it is the same basic system Germany and Switzerland have had for a century, you should warn them about the wrecking of good healthcare.

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Phaedrus76
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Can you link to any poll showing stronger tea bagger support?

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Phaedrus76
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Sep. 14, 2010 8:21 pm

Let me help:
http://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-verizon&source=android-ho...

http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/30/politics/cnn-poll-congress-approval/index....

http://www.gallup.com/poll/147635/tea-party-movement.aspx
That one, Gallup, has the Tea Party at 22%, 1% over their record low.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2013/10/03/228832618/for-tea-par...
& this one shows that teabaggers, and teabagger Reps love the shut down.

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Phaedrus76
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Their all tasking jobs at mcDonalds, Wendy's or the local carwash.

It is NOT the same basic system as Germany and Switzerland. You are a full of shit obama worshipper progressive!

Swiss miss

Feb 22nd 2013, 15:28 by M.S.

DOUGLAS HOLTZ-EAKIN and Avik Roy have penned an op-ed arguing that America should reform Obamacare so that it more closely resembles the Swiss private-sector universal health-insurance system. We should tame Obamacare's ruinous regulations, they write:

“Community rating,” for example, will dramatically increase premiums for young people, a counterproductive approach when one considers that most uninsured Americans are in their 20s and 30s.

Switzerland has community rating. True, it's different from Obamacare: the Swiss version is much more strict. Obamacare allows insurers to charge old people up to several times what they charge young people. In Switzerland they have to charge exactly the same premium regardless of age.

Aaron Carroll explains that, in general, the Swiss system is more heavily regulated than Obamacare. The government sets health-care prices. Subsidies ensure that nobody pays more than 8% of income for health insurance, a level much lower than Obamacare. And there's this interesting wrinkle:

In some important respects, the Swiss law is less market-oriented than ACA. For example, LAMal forbids health insurers from earning profits on their sales of social health insurance.

We look forward to Messrs Holtz-Eakin and Roy's next article calling for eliminating the profit incentive in the health-insurance industry.

You can make this story as long as you want to. But the short version is that there's no such thing as a square wheel. Even in Switzerland.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2013/02/obamacare-0

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klb10
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OK, you are bringing in European models of government controlled insurance where it has to be real insurance at set levels of profit. Allowing private sellers of highly regulated and uniform insurance is like employing private contractors to work in place of civil service. They don't get to screw with the rules or cherrypick. They just get their part of the whole and their piece of the action.

The big difference here is that the traditional free range for insurance is now going to be regulated, but not anywhere like these far better models of private/public "partnership."

I still think Medicare for All is the place to start for America. Then we make it the Medicare it ought to be.

drc2
Joined:
Apr. 26, 2012 12:15 pm
Quote mjolnir:
Quote mjolnir:

Hey Harry. You going to bring this bipartisan resolution up?

"H R 3223 YEA-AND-NAY 5-Oct-2013 10:57 AM

QUESTION: On Passage

BILL TITLE: To provide for the compensation of furloughed Federal employees

Yeas Nays PRES NV

Republican 218 13

Democratic 189 11

Independent

TOTALS 407 24"

What do you think Pp and cohorts: Should Reid bring this resolution to a vote?

Anybody?

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mjolnir
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So the Swiss system is more regulated. Has it destroyed the Swiss economy? You claim Obamacare is going to destroy the American jobs and economy. How long do you think that takes? More than a century?

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Phaedrus76
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Quote mjolnir:

None of which addresses the first part of the post that you so convienently left out.

The Senate facilitates 1,000+ days without a true budget, Reid sits on 30+ House resolutions, many passed with at least some bipartisan support in 2011-2012, and Obama changes law according to his whim, it's just "politics as usual" with you people. - See more at: http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2013/10/tea-party-threats-are-not-blackmail-they-are-extortionists-add-hostage-takers#new
So your justify what Boehner does in shutting down the government saying it's merely the House's prerogative... but it's not OK if the Senate's DOES keep the government open? After all, the HOUSE also has to agree if the government is funded with CRs. So where is this just the Senate's fault? And this is your double standard. The House can do what it wants, but the Senate dare not exercise its own powers? And what's going on here isn't strictly a constitutional issue. What Boehner is doing is a matter of the arbitrary RULES the House operates under.

This is ALL ABOUT BOEHNER... something YOU sweep under the rug. He's the one preventing a vote on a clear CR and it doesn't bother you that he's lying when he says he won't bring it up because there aren't the votes? Of course not. You love such dishonest right wing slop. His claim could be tested in a few minutes. He has to lie because he's AFRAID about 22 GOPers would break ranks and vote with the Dems. And here again we see more of your hypocrisy. You claim if a few Dems vote with the GOP... it's "bipartisan". But you OPPOSE a clean CR "bipartisan" vote because you fear the House will lose its leverage... and all you care about is whether these infantile brats get their way.

As for whether Obama "changed a law on a whim"... I already addressed that.

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Feb. 29, 2012 2:19 pm
Quote klb10:

This thread is a bunch of progressive lies and blame game bullshit. They have convinced themselves and their band of sheople that this is all Boehner's fault. In fact most polls show that both repubs and dems are getting the blame for the shut down.

WTF do the polls have to do with anything when only ONE person... Boehner, is holding the government hostage to satisfy the infantile brats in the GOP? Yes, gullible idiots... perhaps yourself, are eating up the lies the GOP is spewing. But then they lie with some regularity such as when they claim Washington doesn't have a revenue problem when in constant dollars revenues have been virtually FLAT for over a decade. In fact individual income tax revenues have yet to even excede FY2000 levels! In Clinton's 8 year these revenues expanded by 65%.

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Pierpont
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It's the economy, stupid!

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klb10
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Quote Pierpont:
Quote mjolnir:

None of which addresses the first part of the post that you so convienently left out.

The Senate facilitates 1,000+ days without a true budget, Reid sits on 30+ House resolutions, many passed with at least some bipartisan support in 2011-2012, and Obama changes law according to his whim, it's just "politics as usual" with you people. - See more at: http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2013/10/tea-party-threats-are-not-blackmail-they-are-extortionists-add-hostage-takers#new
So your justify what Boehner does in shutting down the government saying it's merely the House's prerogative... but it's not OK if the Senate's DOES keep the government open?.... So where is this just the Senate's fault?....
Are you skimming posts again instead of reading for comprehension? I intimate here:

http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2013/10/tea-party-threats-are-not-blackmail-they-are-extortionists-add-hostage-takers#comment-234607

that it is not " just the Senate's fault?". It's the fault of all of them but the situation was greatly exacerbated the Senate's refusal to obey the law for a large portion of the last 5 years by not passing a budget:

http://www.budget.senate.gov/republican/public/index.cfm/op-eds?ID=1356cd6c-b358-4a95-9783-2eefc7e26da7

"Adopting a budget is not optional. It is required by law. Under the 1974 Congressional Budget Act, the Senate must move a budget out of the Budget Committee by April 1 of every year and adopt a budget resolution on the floor by April 15.

The House has completed its budget work each of the past two years since the GOP attained a majority in that chamber. By contrast, the Democratic Senate is continuing its open defiance of budget law for the third year in a row.

The Senate majority can bring a budget to the floor anytime it wishes and pass it with just 51 votes. It cannot be filibustered. Yet in 2010, with a 60-vote majority, Senate Democrats chose to keep their own committee-passed budget from receiving a vote in the full Senate. In 2011, Majority Leader Harry Reid said it would be “foolish” for his party to do a budget, so it never even wrote one. In 2012, just last week, Budget Committee Chairman Kent Conrad was forced by his own majority to cancel what would have been the first committee votes on a budget resolution in more than two years."

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mjolnir
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Quote Pierpont:As for whether Obama "changed a law on a whim"... I already addressed that.
Please provide a location.

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mjolnir
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It reminds me of the Weimar Republic of Germany just prior to Herr Hitler taking power. Government was incapable of governing.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

polycarp2
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/23/us-usa-fiscal-budget-idUSBRE92M02D20130323

(Reuters) - The Senate on Saturday narrowly passed its first federal budget in four years, a move that will usher in a relative lull in Washington's fiscal wars until an anticipated summer showdown over raising the debt ceiling.

The budget plan passed 50-49 at about 5 a.m. after a marathon voting session in the Democratic-controlled chamber. Four Democratic senators facing tough re-election campaigns in 2014 joined all the Senate Republicans in opposing the measure, which seeks to raise nearly $1 trillion in new tax revenues by closing some tax breaks for the wealthy.

The Senate budget, which reflects Democratic priorities of boosting near-term job growth and preserving social safety net programs, will square off in coming months against a Republican-focused budget passed by the Republican-dominated House of Representatives.

Neither of the non-binding blueprints has a chance of passage in the opposing chamber, leaving Congress no closer to resolving deep differences over how to shrink U.S. deficits and grow the economy. But they give each party a platform from which to tout their respective fiscal visions.

The Democrats' plan from Senate Budget Committee Chairman Patty Murray aims to reduce deficits by $1.85 trillion over 10 years through an equal mix of tax increases and spending cuts.

The Republican plan from House Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan seeks $4.6 trillion in savings over the same period without raising new taxes. It aims to reach a small surplus by 2023 through deep cuts to healthcare and social programs that aid the elderly and poor.

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Phaedrus76
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Republican Congressman Says GOP To Blame For Shutdown

BY JOSH ISRAEL ON OCTOBER 6, 2013 AT 10:33 AM

Rep. Peter King (R-NY)

Rep. Peter King (R-NY) said on Fox News Sunday that — contrary to claims by some colleagues — “we are the ones who did shut the government down.” But while he reiterated his opposition to the strategy, he also said he would not act to require a vote to reopen the federal government.

King blamed Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX) for a “strategy doomed to failure.” Contrary to Cruz’s claims that Republicans could both keep government open and effectively nullify the Affordable Care Act, King noted, “the government is now closed and Obamacare is going forward.”

But King told host Chris Wallace that he would not join Democrats to bring up a clean continuing resolution on the House floor for a vote:

WALLACE: Sir, if you could answer my direct question, why won’t you sign a discharge petition?

KING: It’s not going to go anywhere and the Democrats are not bargaining in good faith. There is no way in the world you will get 25 Republicans to go on that and having said that, I wouldn’t go on it because they are, as I said, not bargaining in good faith here, right now. I’m am committed to make this work. That’s why I have been against this government shutdown from the start. Where I disagree with [fellow Republican] Tom [Graves of Georgia] is we are the ones who did shut the government down. Charles Krauthammer called it the “suicide caucus,” and the Wall Street Journal said we’re “Kamikazes.”

Though King and at least 19 fellow Republicans have said they would vote for a clean bill to reopen the government immediately, none have voted with House Democrats on repeated attempts to hold a vote on doing so. A discharge petition, a little-used parliamentary maneuver used by a majority in the U.S. House to bring a bill to the floor without the Speaker’s consent, would require 217 signatures.

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Congressman: Not Raising Debt Ceiling ‘Would Bring Stability To The World Markets’

BY BRYCE COVERT ON OCTOBER 7, 2013 AT 8:42 AM

In an interview with the Washington Post, Rep. Ted Yoho (R-FL) said on not raising the debt ceiling, “I think, personally, it would bring stability to the world markets.”

This is because, in his view, “we need to have that moment where we realize [we're] going broke.” He firmly told the paper, “I’m not going to raise the debt ceiling.” He also characterized the current government shutdown as “the tremor before the tsunami.”

Few agree with Yoho that a failure to raise the debt ceiling, which would mean the United States government would not have adequate funds to pay for all of the debts it owes and would likely default on at least some, would be beneficial. Last week, the Treasury Department released a report that warned that a default could create “a recession more severe than any seen since the Great Depression.”

It came to this conclusion by looking at the consequences of the near default in 2011, which led to a sharp decline in consumer and business confidence, a hit to the financial markets, and a slow down in job growth. The impact on the financial markets from nearly defaulting on the debt and getting a first-ever downgrade on the debt from Standard & Poor’s “persisted for months.” The brinkmanship that time around also meant a $2.4 trillion drop in household wealth, an $800 billion drop in retirement assets, and a hit to mortgages. It increased the government’s borrowing costs by $1.3 billion.

This all happened even though the U.S. didn’t actually default in 2011. If that were to happen, investors could become unwilling to lend to the country, leaving it with an immediate cash shortfall and creating unknowable (yet clearly devastating) ripple effects throughout the markets and the global economy.

Threatening to not raise the debt ceiling unless Republican demands are met is a relatively new tactic. Historically, the limit was routinely raised, includingseven times under President George W. Bush, and even House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) used to warn against using it as leverage.

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Phaedrus76
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Reality check.

The GOP passed a budget that cuts the deficit by $4.6 trillion over the next decade.

But, this year trying to pass spending bills for the AG dept and Transportation the Republicans could not make the numbers work. On the AG bill the only way to get to their number is to end food stamps. On transportation, the only way to get there is to cut highway funding by 2/3rds. The transportation bill couldn't get out of committee.

The GOP is stuck in that they have a few goals.

1- Cut taxes down to 25%

1- Cut the deficit by more than $4 trillion.

Both are priority #1, and to achieve either one makes the other one impossible politically, and means destroying the economy.

But they'll have to figure that reality out for themselves.

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Phaedrus76
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Quote mjolnir:

Are you skimming posts again instead of reading for comprehension?

All YOU have been doing since your first post to this thread is moving the goal post then going around in circles. I'm still waiting for you to back up your FIRST claim to this thread that ALL such government shutdowns have been a form of "extortion". Therefore Dems have no moral standing here.

I guess Harry has forgotten this: 8 times Dems controlled both houses during a shutdown. 5 times they also had the Presidency (Carter). Once with Reagan, Bush and Ford. The Republicans had both houses during a shutdown twice (Clinton). Who was "extorting" back then?

We already KNOW that the FIRST such shutdown was REAGAN'S doing.


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You are the person who said that I held the Repubs blameless for this "funding gap" or "shutdown", which ever you prefer, and that is clearly not the case. Post #2 I admit that Repubs held both houses v. Clinton. Post #9, mjolnir: I never said that [the GOP House is an innocent bystander]. Post #66 "It's the fault of all of them but the situation was greatly exacerbated the Senate's refusal to obey the law for a large portion of the last 5 years by not passing a budget:".

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mjolnir
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Quote Pierpont:
Quote mjolnir:

Are you skimming posts again instead of reading for comprehension?

....your FIRST claim to this thread that ALL such government shutdowns have been a form of "extortion.
Are you saying that shutdowns sometimes are allowable? Presumably just when they agree with your political views. Lol.

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mjolnir
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Quote mjolnir:

You are the person who said that I held the Repubs blameless for this "funding gap" or "shutdown", which ever you prefer, and that is clearly not the case.

Blah blah... you can CLAIM you've not held the House blameless yet every post you've made to this thread PROVES that is your position. Predictably you've done nothing but regurgitate all the self-serving spin and lies the GOP has told to make their temper tantrum sound respectable and reasonable.

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Pierpont
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Quote mjolnir:
Quote Pierpont:As for whether Obama "changed a law on a whim"... I already addressed that.
Please provide a location.

?

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mjolnir
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Quote mjolnir:
Quote Pierpont:
Quote mjolnir:

Are you skimming posts again instead of reading for comprehension?

....your FIRST claim to this thread that ALL such government shutdowns have been a form of "extortion.
Are you saying that shutdowns sometimes are allowable? Presumably just when they agree with your political views. Lol.

You've made the claim that previous shutdowns are morally equivalent to what the GOP is doing now. We're STILL waiting for you to prove every... or even most, other such shutdowns were trying to extort the repeal of already duly passed laws by those who LOST that fight in Congress and in the courts. How long do we have to wait for you to stop evading YOUR first claim?

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Pierpont
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Feb. 29, 2012 2:19 pm
Quote mjolnir:
Quote mjolnir:
Quote mjolnir:

Hey Harry. You going to bring this bipartisan resolution up?

"H R 3223 YEA-AND-NAY 5-Oct-2013 10:57 AM

QUESTION: On Passage

BILL TITLE: To provide for the compensation of furloughed Federal employees

Yeas Nays PRES NV

Republican 218 13

Democratic 189 11

Independent

TOTALS 407 24"

What do you think Pp and cohorts: Should Reid bring this resolution to a vote?

Anybody?

What about it Pp?

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mjolnir
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Mar. 3, 2011 12:42 pm
Quote mjolnir:What do you think Pp and cohorts: Should Reid bring this resolution to a vote?

I see you're back to evading YOUR claim that ALL government shutdowns involve extortion and therefore morally the GOP is now doing nothing new.

And you wonder why I often ask are there ANY intelligent right wingers out there?

Clearly not in this thread.

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Pierpont
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Feb. 29, 2012 2:19 pm

Lest the conversation get side-tracked into what "public opinion" is supposed to be from various sources, other than poorly informed, what I would point out is that these kinds of stands require sufficient moral clarity to justify themselves. To oppose the President's illegal funding of something Congress has specifically banned, as in Iran/Contra, such a stand would have clear high moral and Constitutional ground. One could even make that argument for brave patriots standing for national integrity against the mob, but in this context of politics, the long-term assessments matter to the short term tactics.

In this case, it is hard to see the moral principle and easy to see the politics of the GOPimp Refusnik House. House opposition to Obamacare is deeply ironic, and were any of the opponents against the payouts to the private sector for no value added and even worse than that in red tape overhead, I would welcome them to the health care sanity club and how owning our own insurance company also allows us total choice of medical provider instead of being bound to any "plan." Costs less, gives us more. If that is what these goons were seeking, we would all be applauding their attempt to repeal the Corporate Entitlements of Healthcare in America. That is not what they are seeking, so it makes nothing other than political sense and their motives are purely partisan and short-term.

Long term only in the sense that stopping this modest step toward doing something might mean delaying any steps at all. I think that is wrong. Stopping Obamacare would make the movement for Single Payer wider and stronger. In the meantime, a lot of people would get hurt by not having the minor protections put in place by Obamacare. What would be very effective and pleasing would be broad concern for the people who get "hurt" by not having as well as having Obamacare. Reforming what we have while working for what would be much better can happen at the same time.

What does not help is a lot of hyperbole and Obama bashing about what this piece of Heritage/Congress Sausage is. Many of the same people who are conducting the extortion were party to writing Obamacare. Compromises in the process of the legislation coming from a bill with amendment upon amendment, gave Republicans more than ratification rights. Obamacare is a bipartisan effort to do Republican Lite rather than Medicare for All. I have tired of such bipartisan and triangular efforts, but would love to see more of a people's consensus outside of DC forming to stop the Corporate Entitlements. We should own our own pharms as well.

drc2
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Apr. 26, 2012 12:15 pm
Quote mjolnir:
Quote mjolnir:
Quote mjolnir:
Quote mjolnir:

Hey Harry. You going to bring this bipartisan resolution up?

"H R 3223 YEA-AND-NAY 5-Oct-2013 10:57 AM

QUESTION: On Passage

BILL TITLE: To provide for the compensation of furloughed Federal employees

Yeas Nays PRES NV

Republican 218 13

Democratic 189 11

Independent

TOTALS 407 24"

What do you think Pp and cohorts: Should Reid bring this resolution to a vote?

Anybody?

What about it Pp?

Reid, et al. are on C-SPAN2 talking about it now. Any of you Libs/Progressives have the moral courage to answer my question? It's a certainty that Pp doesn't.

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mjolnir
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Mar. 3, 2011 12:42 pm

The House needs to vote on the entire CR bill, which the Senate has done.

No votes on piecemeal bullshit plans. The Democrats in the House who voted Yea on those bills are political cowards.

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Phaedrus76
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Paying furloughed federal employees is like them being on paid vacation. I would suspect most of them could careless what the idiots in Congress can't do as long as they get their pay. Why would or should they give a shit?

I, like you, mjonir agree that all of the idiots in Congress and the one in the WH are incompetant boobs and all deserve blame. I, and would suspect that most voters do not give a shit what transpired in the past, especially 30-40 years ago. That being said, the democrats have conveniently forgotten the fact that Congress wouldn’t even have to vote on a CR if the Senate had passed a realistic budget this year. By contrast, the House has passed a workable budget every year since 2011, when the republicans took control. These budget resolutions are normally how the process of funding the government gets started. However, because the democrats in the Senate refuse to pass a realistic budget, government agencies have to live paycheck to paycheck with these CRs.

I hope the time has finally come the voters realize who is ultimately to blame and remember that in 2014. I am not really counting on it though, since memories are short and political rhetoric is forever.

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klb10
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Quote Phaedrus76:

The House needs to vote on the entire CR bill, which the Senate has done.

No votes on piecemeal bullshit plans. The Democrats in the House who voted Yea on those bills are political cowards.

I may not agree with you but at least you got guts enough to give an answer.

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mjolnir
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Mar. 3, 2011 12:42 pm
Quote mjolnir:
Quote Phaedrus76:

The House needs to vote on the entire CR bill, which the Senate has done.

No votes on piecemeal bullshit plans. The Democrats in the House who voted Yea on those bills are political cowards.

I may not agree with you but at least you got guts enough to give an answer.

Great, now do you the integrity to admit that not all shutdowns have the same moral equality behind them? This shutdown is about Ted Cruz and Rand Paul fighting for the GOP 2016 nomination.

Both the R and D plan is to spend $986 bn, give or take.

Beyond that the Republicans want: to delay Obamacare, or defund it. Or maybe delay the individual mandate.

Now they want to kill the medical device tax.

Oh, and stop women's health, giving equal treatment to women under the law.

And of course now to only fund the parts conservatives want to fund.

The Democratic party has no demands.

Not equal blame. Not a pox on them both. One group is responsible statesmen (and stateswomen) the other group has some statesmen, and a band of chimpanzees busy flinging poo on the US constitution and trying to wreck our credit rating.

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Phaedrus76
Joined:
Sep. 14, 2010 8:21 pm

A shutdown is a political tool and both sides use it. This particular one is no more heinous than any of the 17 that preceeded it.

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mjolnir
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Mar. 3, 2011 12:42 pm

Did the "other" side in the previous 17 have an achievable goal?

Did the other side change their mind for why they were shutting it down repeatedly?

The facts are the conservatives have no goal other than ending healthcare for 30,000,000 Americans. Obama and the Senate Democrats have said no to that.

I guess if Cruz or some House Republican who could negotiate a deal could get in the room, and we get rid of Boehner, we'd know what they want. Boehner cannot lead, and the Teabaggers will not be lead.

---

First up, ABC/WaPo:

Seventy percent in a new ABC News/Washington Post poll disapprove of how the Republicans in Congress are handling the budget negotiations, up 7 percentage points from a week ago. Far fewer, 51 percent, disapprove of Obama’s approach, essentially unchanged in the past week.

  • As compared to last week, Obama disapproval on budget talks is +1 to 51 percent, congressional Democrats are +5 to 61 percent, and congressional Republicans are +7 to 70 percent.
  • The net margins are even more dramatic. Obama is -6 at 45-61 (it was -9 last week, so an improvement). Democrats are -26 at 35-61. Republicans are at a whopping -46, or 24-70. Or put yet another way, Obama has a net 40-point advantage on the issue over congressional Republicans. Last week, it was just 28 points.
  • Republicans are more divided internally. A total of 45 percent of Republicans disapprove of Republicans in Congress. That's nearly half. A total of 36 percent of Democrats disapprove of their own caucus, or just over a third.
  • The only people who approve of congressional Republicans are those who are "very conservative", and even those guys only narrowly approve, 50-47.
  • Women disapprove of congressional Republicans 20-75, and non-whites disapprove 16-78. Luckily for Republicans, they no longer care about rebranding.
  • GOP losing big ground among Americans making over $100K. Looks like people who have them don't want to see their investments wiped out.

Pew:

Republicans are taking more blame for the shutdown than the Obama administration, but only by a slim margin. By 38% to 30%, more say that Republicans are to blame for the government shutdown than the Obama administration; 19% volunteer that both sides are equally to blame. Two weeks ago, about as many said they would blame Republicans (39%) as the Obama administration (36%) if the federal government shut down.

What was a three-point Obama advantage on the question is now an eight-point one, showing that public opinion is trending away from the GOP.

Surprisingly, Democrats are just as opposed to concessions to the GOP as Republicans are of concessions to Democrats. Historically, Democrats have been far more likely to demand compromise than Republicans, undercutting Democratic efforts at unity and resilience. This means that it isn't just our caucus that is learning that stand strong, but the Democratic base as well. Progress!

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Phaedrus76
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Sep. 14, 2010 8:21 pm
Quote Phaedrus76:The facts are the conservatives have no goal other than ending healthcare for 30,000,000 Americans. Obama and the Senate Democrats have said no to that.

Obama and the Senate dems are speaking out of order from a false assertion. Those 30 million Americans are the young late 20 something and early 30s. They are the least in need of health insurance and the least to use it. You are denser than I thought if you believe that they support a mandate that they HAVE to puchase a product . That is your liberal/progressive, authoritarian government, you and your ilk really think you know what is best for everybody way of thinking. And you support the corporate/government collusion that ACA is. How gullible.

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klb10
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Aug. 13, 2013 11:24 am

"Obama and the Senate dems are speaking out of order from a fale assertion." Huh?

At what age does having health insurance and regular healthcare make sense? When do you stop paying out of pocket to buy insurance? What happens if you make a mistake and have something happen to you before the actuarial break even point? What do we do with those who thought they could wait another year?

I think there is some truth to the idea that the young and immortal will make unwise decisions and try to be lucky instead of safe. Particularly when they have educational loans and are working below their skill level.

You blow a lot of gas.

drc2
Joined:
Apr. 26, 2012 12:15 pm

And only big brother knows better.

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klb10
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Aug. 13, 2013 11:24 am

H J RES 84 RECORDED VOTE 8-Oct-2013 1:56 PM

QUESTION: On Passage

BILL TITLE: Making continuing appropriations for Head Start for fiscal year 2014, and for other puposes

Ayes Noes PRES NV

Republican 225 2 4

Democratic 23 166 11

Independent

TOTALS 248 168 15

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mjolnir
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Mar. 3, 2011 12:42 pm
Quote mjolnir:Reid, et al. are on C-SPAN2 talking about it now. Any of you Libs/Progressives have the moral courage to answer my question? It's a certainty that Pp doesn't.

Yup, it's all REID'S fault... and never Boehner's for HIS not bring up for a vote for a clean CR.

Sorry M, as I said you're a one trick pony with only ONE thing to say: the GOP is entirely innocent for the crisis THEY created.

Now, have anything intelligent to say? You haven't so far in this thread.

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Pierpont
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Feb. 29, 2012 2:19 pm
Quote Pierpont:
Quote mjolnir:Reid, et al. are on C-SPAN2 talking about it now. Any of you Libs/Progressives have the moral courage to answer my question? It's a certainty that Pp doesn't.

Yup, it's all REID'S fault... and never Boehner's for HIS not bring up for a vote for a clean CR.

Sorry M, as I said you're a one trick pony with only ONE thing to say: the GOP is entirely innocent for the crisis THEY created.

Now, have anything intelligent to say? You haven't so far in this thread.

Not an answer Pp. Yes or No?

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mjolnir
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Mar. 3, 2011 12:42 pm

Pp will not play unless he can control the questions and accusations.

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klb10
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Aug. 13, 2013 11:24 am
Quote Pierpont:
Quote mjolnir:What do you think Pp and cohorts: Should Reid bring this resolution to a vote?

I see you're back to evading YOUR claim that ALL government shutdowns involve extortion and therefore morally the GOP is now doing nothing new.

And you wonder why I often ask are there ANY intelligent right wingers out there?

Clearly not in this thread.

Yup... mjolnir continues to repeat his assertion that there is some morally equivalence between ALL such government. Here's his latest spew:

A shutdown is a political tool and both sides use it. This particular one is no more heinous than any of the 17 that preceded it.

It was mjolnir's FIRST claim to this thread... and in keeping with the infantile brats HE supports in the GOP, he wants everyone to answer his questions but mjolnir refuses to back up the claim he made. SPECIFICALLY: WHERE'S THE MORAL EQUIVALENCE HE CLAIMS???

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Pierpont
Joined:
Feb. 29, 2012 2:19 pm
Quote mjolnir:
Quote mjolnir:
Quote Pierpont:As for whether Obama "changed a law on a whim"... I already addressed that.
Please provide a location.

?

??

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mjolnir
Joined:
Mar. 3, 2011 12:42 pm
Quote mjolnir:
Quote Pierpont:
Quote mjolnir:

Are you skimming posts again instead of reading for comprehension?

....your FIRST claim to this thread that ALL such government shutdowns have been a form of "extortion.
Are you saying that shutdowns sometimes are allowable? Presumably just when they agree with your political views. Lol.

Perhaps I missed it. You complain of not answering questions. What about these?

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mjolnir
Joined:
Mar. 3, 2011 12:42 pm
Quote klb10:

And only big brother knows better.

Well, actuaries, statisticians, insurance companies and the public health officials who have 110 plus years of data do in fact know better than most, or all, twenty somethings.
Experts know more and better than ignoramuses. Which in the end is the divide between progressives and teabaggers.

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Phaedrus76
Joined:
Sep. 14, 2010 8:21 pm

And THAT gives government the RIGHT to mandate citizens to purchase a product? I don't think so, no more that government has a right to legislate morality.

klb10's picture
klb10
Joined:
Aug. 13, 2013 11:24 am
Quote mjolnir:
Quote mjolnir:
Quote Pierpont:
Quote mjolnir:

Are you skimming posts again instead of reading for comprehension?

....your FIRST claim to this thread that ALL such government shutdowns have been a form of "extortion.
Are you saying that shutdowns sometimes are allowable? Presumably just when they agree with your political views. Lol.

Perhaps I missed it. You complain of not answering questions. What about these?

More evasions. Here's your first post... the second to this thread. You've been running from it ever since you made these ridiculous claims.

“Speaker [John] Boehner and his band of tea party radicals have done the unthinkable — they’ve shut down the federal government,” Reid added. “Now, for us that’s hard to comprehend as being good.
I guess Harry has forgotten this:

8 times Dems controlled both houses during a shutdown. 5 times they also had the Presidency (Carter). Once with Reagan, Bush and Ford. The Republicans had both houses during a shutdown twice (Clinton).
Who was "extorting" back then?

Let's see where in this list of past shutdowns it's business as usual to try to extort the repeal of an already passed law by a party that got hammered in elections for trying to repeal it. Show us where in the past major supporters of the GOP like the Chamber of Commerce have threatened it if they continue to act like spoiled brats?

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Pierpont
Joined:
Feb. 29, 2012 2:19 pm

What Do Democrats Really Want?

Thom plus logo Thomas Friedman, the confused billionaire, told us decades ago that "free trade" is what made the Lexus a successful product when, in fact, it was decades of Japanese government subsidies and explicit tariffs that did so.
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